Israeli sniper bullet takes 12-year-old girl's life

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Sami Abu Salem writing from Jabaliya, occupied Gaza Strip, Live from Palestine, 10 March 2008

"I put my hand on her chest to stop the streaming blood. She told me that she could not breathe, her body trembled and she closed her eyes," said Ra'd Abu Saif of his 12-year-old daughter Safa's last moments after she was shot by an Israeli sniper last Saturday.

Safa was shot in the left side of her chest while she was inside her home in Jabaliya, northern Gaza. An ambulance tried to reach her but Israeli soldiers opened fire at it, wounding a paramedic and causing the tires to lose air, and so she bled to death three hours after she was wounded.

Her 39-year-old father Ra'd, 37-year-old mother Samar, and the rest of Safa's family surrounded her, praying for her safety. Her father pressed on the wound while her brother Ali held her hands as her body was severely trembling. She asked her father to help her to breathe.

"Dad, I cannot breathe, all of you leave me please, let me breathe, enough, enough," were Safa's last words, according to her father.

Ra'd tried CPR, but he failed. No more pulse and no more breath.

Safa had gone to fetch some clothes from the second floor when, according to Ra'd, "the Israeli sniper on a nearby building shot her in her chest."

The gunshot penetrated both her chest and the door of the room, and blood poured from her chest and back.

"I heard a gunshot and soon her scream filled the house. I went upstairs, her knees gave in and slowly she fell down while calling for her mother," said her 17-year-old brother Ali.

Her father carried his wounded daughter and tried to evacuate her to the hospital but when he reached the door of the house, his brothers prevented him from leaving as Israeli snipers were shooting anything moving.

Several phone calls later, the ambulance center told the family to evacuate the girl. Her mother Samar carried Safa but as soon as she left the house, the Israeli soldiers opened fire at her and the wounded girl fell to the ground. Samar dragged her into the house.

While Safa laid dying, the family waited as explosions, gunshots, drones and helicopters sounded all around them. Israeli forces cut the electricity and shot the water tanks on the roof. The radio and mobile phone batteries lost their power.

more, more, more...

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9378.shtml

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[subsuelo]

4. Normally I'm rather against making any comparisons with Nazis

(that goes for both sides)

I also don't think it's fair to characterize Israelis as somehow *not* having a problem with IDF snipers taking out 12 year old girls.

That being said, I think I get your point. I think to an extent we are all infected with the feeling of being comfortable with things as they are 'as long as it isn't happening to me' - know what I mean?

[subsuelo]

2. "Defeat the enemy" with "as much violence as necessary"

These words were written right here in this forum only a day or so ago.

I wonder if the person that wrote it would like to take back what they said.

[oberliner]

3. Hamas should admit it has made a mistake and try another path

They have been firing these rockets for seven years, and look what happens.

The statement above and the one in the subject line were made by Ra'd Abu Saif, the father of the girl killed in this tragic incident.

Would that they would heed his advice.

[subsuelo]

5. An IDF sniper shot her, not Hamas.

[oberliner]

6. Just sharing some remarks made by this girl's father

I would think that his insights into the situation would be worth noting.

[subsuelo]

7. Just clarifying who the actual killer was

I would think that part would be relevant

[oberliner]

8. Definitely relevant- lots of blame to go around

More people in the region need to at least consider embracing an ideology of peace if things are ever going to change.

Sadly, things seem to be moving in the opposite direction.

[LeftishBrit]

10. I agree. It's really sad.

[subsuelo]

11. Agreed.

[LeftishBrit]

9. Of course it's relevant...

But if a British or American parent were to react to their child's death in Iraq by saying, "Bush has got us into a disastrous war - it must be ended", it would not be sufficient to point out that an Iraqi soldier or militant committed the actual killing. It would be true. But the deaths would still not have happened if not for Bush's disastrous policy.

I think the Palestinian father is saying something equivalent.

In any case, it's a tragic story.

[subsuelo]

13. There is no excuse for sniping 12 year old girls

I really have little patience for hearing about either Bush's or Hamas' policies when it comes to murdering little girls.

Nobody to blame, but the killer.

[msmcghee]

16. I would agree that murdering a 12 year old is a . .

. . terrible crime. I have a hard time believing that any Israeli soldier would do such a thing. I'd suggest that there might be some circumstances that we are not aware of. I'd hope that's the case but of course it could have been an outright murder, I have no idea. And neither do you or anyone else at this time.

I do wonder why a 12 year old girl was allowed to be on the second floor during a gun battle - where she could be seen through a window by a sniper. If there was a gun battle anywhere near my house, I'd be sure my kids were in the lowest, safest room in the house as far from any windows or doors as possible. If the IDF was taking fire from the area I suspect snipers would be scanning any higher positions for possible hostiles. A shape moving in a room partially obscured might have been seen as a hostile. There's also the possibility that that the sniper thought the girl (or the human shape near the window, perhaps partially obscured) was someone spotting Israeli positions.

Also, if there was a gun battle raging in the area, how do we know it was an Israeli bullet? Gunfights in cities are chaotic and you never know where the next shot is coming from or who is pulling the trigger.

I'm not claiming that I have any idea what happened - but I really doubt any Israeli soldier would knowingly kill a small child with a sniper rifle unless there was some extenuating circumstance. War is terrible. Innocent people always seem to take the brunt of it.

There is no excuse inciting a war because these terrible deaths are the result. Attacking the citizens of a neighboring state is one of the activities that almost always result in war and needless killing. The way to stop the needless killing is simple. The Palestinians who are trying to kill Jews need to stop. That's the only thing that will stop the needless killing on both sides.

If it is ever determined that the girl was killed knowingly and purposefully - then whoever did it should of course receive the maximum penalty - but it's a bit unfair to conclude at this time that she was murdered by the IDF without more information.

[Tom Joad]

18. sometimes it's 13 year olds. Palestinian girls this age pose a existential threat to Israel.

Iman al-Hams who was shot 17 times as she ventured near an Israeli army post near Rafah refugee camp in Gaza a year ago.

[MaryCeleste]

34. No evidence she was targeted

The way I read it, the shot went through a door first. A bit more details on where and when, and what else was going on are also needed.

[MaryCeleste]

39. Self Deleted - Dupe

[HawkerHurricane]

12. As long as Isreal has the massive firepower superiority...

and backing of several major powers, you're right.

Hamas should take a lesson from Ghandi: Indians couldn't drive out the British militarily, so they drove them out by being more civilized than they were.

Here's a plan: pick a major roadway in Isreal. Get a dozen people. Have them lie down in the road during the morning rush hour. (you're willing to strap a damn bomb on and blow yourself up, you should be willing to risk being run over, dammit) Have camera crews at a safe distance to film the 'action'. IF the Isrealis do anything more violent than drag the people out of the way, congratulations, you've made them look like barbarians. Do it again on a different road for afternoon rush hour. Do it on every working day. If (when) they overreact, do NOT 'avenge'. Talk more 'in sorrow than anger'. Better still, talk down to them, like they're the uneducated wogs and you're the civilized nation come to teach them.

Oh, it will take a while. You've been violent for too long for the scam to work instantly. And some of your people will die, and others imprisoned. But your people are dying now, and all your futile rocket attacks do is 'justify' bombing raids. And if you can keep it up long enough, you'll actually convice people that you were 'peaceful' before they came and 'messed up your culture'. (It worked for the Hindus; they've got people convinced that they're non violent)

[subsuelo]

14. Fine, if you advise Israelis to do the same thing

[HawkerHurricane]

15. Interesting concept...

both sides trying to out-civilize each other instead of out-barbarian each other...

But I was proposing a plan for the Palastinians to accomplish thier goals. The Isrealis are accomplishing thiers without my help.

[Crunchy Frog]

30. Agreed.

If the Palestinians were to seriously persue a strategy of non-violent resistance, I think that they could alter their situation pretty quickly and dramatically, especially in the era of YouTube.

Sadly, I'm not expecting that to happen. Both sides in this conflict seem to have trapped themselves in profoundly disfunctional and counterproductive strategies, and the Palestinians are bearing the brunt of the suffering for it. It's very frustrating for me to watch.

[breakaleg]

17. This child was killed by a sniper while in her home. There is no mention of any

militants or such acting from that home. And her mother was shot at when she tried to bring her outside to an ambulance. From a sniper, with a scope with which he could likely see what he was shooting at.

I'd sure like to hear Israel's side of this. I'd love to hear them describe what illegal activities this girl was participating in.

[msmcghee]

19. How do you know that?

Because EI said so?

[azurnoir]

21. Perhaps another source

who's veracity would be more acceptable

MUSLIM tradition requires the dead to be buried before sunset on the day of their death, so 12-year-old Safa Abu Seif was buried on Sunday with only her father to mourn her.

The rest of her family, including her mother, were still pinned down by the Israeli tanks and snipers occupying the north Gaza neighborhood where the child's family had watched her die over three hours from a bullet through the stomach.

"Safa was standing by the window at the end of the building where there were Israeli snipers," her father Raad, 40, said. Bursts of heavy machine-gun fire and occasional explosions still sounded from the direction of the Zimmo Square district, where the rest of his family was trapped.

"The Israelis dropped a bomb near the area and it blew open the window and the sniper saw her and he shot her immediately. The bullet came from up to down, so they must have been on the rooftops. She was bleeding, and I called many times for an ambulance, but the ambulances couldn't get into the area because the Israelis were stopping them. So I started carrying her towards where the ambulances were," Mr Abu Seif said.

"I held her in my arms while my wife waved a white flag. We walked close to the ambulances and then the Israelis began to fire over our heads. We tried to save her but we couldn't do much. In the end she said, let me die, there's nothing you can do."



http://www.theage.com.au/text/articles/2008/03/03/1204402361718.html

[msmcghee]

22. Thanks for the added link.

So you must think that there were reporters there from EI and from The Age interviewing the participants right after it happened providing two independent sources. I guess it all must be true then. But there are some questions raised by these stories.

Why was she "standing by the window at the end of the building where there were Israeli snipers"? - one might wonder - while bursts of gunfire were going off in the area? To me, that doesn't seem like the time you would ask your 12 yo child to go get some clothes from the bedroom by the street where the Israeli snipers are.

I'm no expert on these things but I think most snipers now use a .50 caliber weapon. I can't imagine how a small child could stay alive for three hours and talk coherently to her parents after being hit by such a weapon in the stomach. But wait - the other story said she was hit in the chest and the bullet then left her back and went through the door. Just the shock from the impact of a sniper rifle would likely kill her instantly - whether shot in the chest or stomach. They are designed to take down grown men wearing body armor. But if not, certainly she would have bleed to death in a few minutes. Do you have any idea what a .50 cal exit wound does to a human torso?

Then her uncle "crawled at night to get a lantern" and then crawled back. At night, soldiers in enemy territory make heavy use of night vision equipment. Go to You Tube and search "night vision combat". You'll see that her uncle would have been just as visible as if he were in broad daylight. Seems like some significant inconsistencies in the stories and many facts don't add up very well.

But, as I said, I have no idea what actually happened. And neither do you but you have no problem taking these two contradictory but colorful and pitiful stories and accusing some unknown Israeli soldier of the cold blooded murder of a 12 yo child. Oh well, just another day at DU I/P.

[shaayecanaan]

33. Eh?

To me, that doesn't seem like the time you would ask your 12 yo child to go get some clothes from the bedroom by the street where the Israeli snipers are.

Israeli snipers are a routine feature of life in the occupied territories and often occupy peoples' houses for weeks on end. Gunfire is also pretty much a constant. Unless you resign yourself to never leaving the house or passing by a window for the duration of your natural life, at some stage you will be exposed to sniper fire.

I'm no expert on these things but I think most snipers now use a .50 caliber weapon.

Neither am I, but at least I make the effort to check these things before firing off my shit cannon. Essentially all military stock sniper rifles use standard 7.62 mm ammunition, amounting to .30 caliber. .50 caliber sniper rifles are floor mounted and rarely used due to their cumbersome nature; also, because .50 caliber rounds have almost as much powder in them as a hand grenade, the weapons dont last all that long.

Just the shock from the impact of a sniper rifle would likely kill her instantly - whether shot in the chest or stomach.

Holy jesus, a cottage expert on both sniper rifles and gunshot wounds. But wait, there's more!

Then her uncle "crawled at night to get a lantern" and then crawled back. At night, soldiers in enemy territory make heavy use of night vision equipment.

Really? What a stark fucking revelation this is. I am definitely going to restrict myself to wandering around in war zones during daylight hours. And I mean, wanting to get a lantern at NIGHT?? What would be the possible use of that?

Seems like some significant inconsistencies in the stories and many facts don't add up very well.

Damn straight. Clarrence Darrow, eat your fucking heart out.

But, as I said, I have no idea what actually happened.

Give it the old college try. Maybe Dad stabbed her in the back with a carving knife just so he could parade her corpse in front of the international media. That one's always worth trotting out. Arabs will do *anything* to their kids, you know.

[MaryCeleste]

37. Let me take a shot at this

I'm no expert on these things but I think most snipers now use a .50 caliber weapon.

Neither am I, but at least I make the effort to check these things before firing off my shit cannon. Essentially all military stock sniper rifles use standard 7.62 mm ammunition, amounting to .30 caliber. .50 caliber sniper rifles are floor mounted and rarely used due to their cumbersome nature; also, because .50 caliber rounds have almost as much powder in them as a hand grenade, the weapons dont last all that long.

I am knowledgeable in this area. Most snipers use rifles in the 30 Caliber range. 7.62 NATO is historically the most common, though there are a lot of specialty/exotic rounds out there. There are 50 caliber sniper rifles (Think Barrett). They are not floor mounted and do last a very long time, since they were designed for the round.
Given what has been reported, I don't think it was a sniper team, more likely regular troops providing cover. A 30 caliber chest shot is nearly always fatal almost immediately. There is also mention it was a stomach shot and that a door was penetrated. My guess after reading what I have is a 5.56 NATO round from an M4. That does not make the person any less dead.

What is missing is what was going on around there at the time. Was a firefight in progress when it happened? One report cites a IDF bombing or shelling in the immediate area.

[msmcghee]

38. I did some further checking . .

. . and what you day about the weaponry seems correct. I was basing my guess on a dated book that I read on snipers in the military that focussed on the .50 cal as having an extremely flat trajectory for several hundred yards. Thanks for adding your expertise. For the benefit of shaayecanaan - I did say in my post that I had no idea what actually happened.

[MaryCeleste]

36. Is it really another source?

[oberliner]

23. The mother was not shot at by a sniper

An Israeli tank fired shots into the ground as she approached it.

[pelsar]

26. and your experience...?

night time battle "sniper with a scope with which he could likely see...."

quite a few assumptions there:
that it was a sniper (did the bullet have: "shot from israeli sniper"
that it was from the IDF (battles in urban areas are not known for their clarity)
that the dad identified the shooter
that the girl was the intended target (bullets can travel hundreds of meters)

that there was no smoke in the air making visibility difficult....
etc etc etc....

[MaryCeleste]

35. No evidence that there were "snipers" which are normally a two man team

Regular soldiers in a strong point of some sort are more likely.

The right question is not if Hamas had used that house as a fighting position, bu if there were Hamas militants nearby enganged in a gunfight with the IDF

[Tom Joad]

20. Tom Hurndall was killed while walking a child away from an Israeli murderer

if it were not Tom that was killed that day, it would have likely been that last child to get out of range of the killer that day.
and very few would have heard of the child.

[oberliner]

24. I thought Hurndall was the shooter's target

It was my understanding that Taysir Hayb admitted at his trial to shooting at Tom Hurndall deliberately.

[Tom Joad]

27. He admitted to having orders to shoot at anything that moves

which was basically the rule he was following. If Tom had not been there, the child may have been killed, like so many other Palestinian children.

[oberliner]

28. Was anyone else shot during that incident besides Hurndall?

It was my understanding that Hayb (who was convicted of manslaughter) deliberately took a shot at Hurndall because he was a member of the ISM (Hayb claimed it was meant to be a "warning shot" but ended up hitting him).

If he was shooting "anything that moves" one would think that many more people would have been shot, but I believe that Hurndall was the only one (please correct me if I'm wrong).

It is definitely frustrating and sad that the shooting of a white European adult who chose to put his life in danger by moving into a war zone gets so much more attention than the shooting of an innocent Palestinian child who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Tom Joad]

29. I believe it was right of him to choose human solidarity and supporting

human rights.

Hayb: "I told him that I did what I'm supposed to: anyone who enters a firing zone must be taken out. always says this."

By the way, Hayb was convicted of manslaughter because the Hurndall's had the clout to insist on a thorough investigation, and there was enough pressure from GB to make it happen. Otherwise Hurndall would have remained just another person killed to protect the security of Israel, like so many others.

It is frustrating that Palestinian children hardly merit a mention in the mainstream press. But part of the reason is that there are so many Palestinian children that are killed by the Occupation forces that it would be impossible for anyone to remember them all.

Over 2 dozen children killed in the last few weeks alone. Israel is very busy, busy, busy.

[oberliner]

31. Was that quote from Hayb from when he was lying or when he was telling the truth?

Very hard to tell as he kept making things up and retracting various statements over the course of the proceedings.

I share your sorrow at the number of Palestinian children who have been killed in the past few weeks. And also the Israeli children who were killed in the recent Jerusalem shooting attack.

The stories are heartbreaking.

[Tom Joad]

32. Don't have to believe Hayb there, just look at Israeli military actions

ask the family of James Miller.

and yes, all the children should be remembered and mourned.
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org

[pelsar]

25. a bit of reality...

hile Safa laid dying, the family waited as explosions, gunshots, drones and helicopters sounded all around them. Israeli forces cut the electricity and shot the water tanks on the roof. The radio and mobile phone batteries lost their power.

"We used water only for drinking; the smell of the toilet filled our home and we used to conserve batteries," said her brother Ali.

"My uncle Nabil, 28, crawled from our house to his house and brought a kerosene lamp, but it went out the same night," Ali added.

___

so we have a battle at night all around and the claim is that "a sniper"..i.e. the sniper saw a little girl in the window and felt this little girl was a threat and killed her...riiiiiight

i understand from the comments here that knowledge of night time fighting is pretty widespread......

[stranger81]

40. yeah, that's completely unbelievable, since Israel never kills Palestinian children

without provocation or cause.

Umm hmm.

[pelsar]

41. can i assume...

that you've never been in night urban combat?.......and you actually have no idea what the environment is like?

[stranger81]

42. you can, and will, assume whatever the hell you want. [n/t]