The cruelty of youths

[ProgressiveMuslim]

As long as the vile behaviour of young settlers is allowed to continue unimpeded by Israeli authorities, peace will not be achieved
Seth Freedman

Of all the heartbreaking scenes I've witnessed during my time in this country, a recent incident on a dusty road in a Hebron valley stands head and shoulders above the rest. No blood was spilled, no bones broken, but, in the space of a few seconds, I lost all hope that there is any way out of the quicksand in which the region is forever sinking. At least, that is, while the vicious sadism of the settlers is allowed to flourish unimpeded and uncontrolled by the Israeli authorities.

Readers often try to discredit my writing by claiming a lack of context in my pieces, so before I recount the sorry tale, I'll throw in the necessary caveats. Yes, Hebron is a holy city to Jews as well as Muslims. Yes, there have been numerous murderous attacks perpetrated by Palestinian terrorists against Jewish Israelis in the area. And yes, while the situation there remains as fragile as it is at present, there are definitely justifications for at least some of the security measures that are currently in place in the city.

But nothing - repeat, nothing - can excuse the cruelty and malice that a gang of five settler youths brazenly displayed in front of us that afternoon. I was in the area shadowing a team of Ecumenical Accompaniers (EA), an organisation similar in essence to Temporary International Presence in the City of Hebron (TIPH), though less official and therefore far less limited by diplomatic restrictions in their monitoring of the situation. That said, even they are terrified to intervene when it comes to settler crimes, believing that the army will do nothing to protect them from the inevitable savagery the settlers are notorious for dishing out to international observers.

We had headed over to a Palestinian farmer's field where, for the last four days, settlers have been illegally constructing a house out of rocks in the middle of his land. Various half-hearted attempts by the army to disperse the invaders have had little effect, as we saw when we arrived at the scene. Five teenage boys and girls were nonchalantly guarding their half-built structure, casually shooting the breeze with one another - until we turned up, that is.

Screaming at me with the husky tones of a voice in the throes of breaking, one of the boys demanded that I put down my camera and "get the hell out of here". Nonplussed by his assumption that he held some kind of authority over me, I ignored his cries and carried on photographing him and his partners in crime.

Stalking towards me with what he considered to be a great degree of menace, he again snarled that I should stop taking photos, "or I'll kill you". Given the size of him, I couldn't help but laugh, at which point he demanded to see my ID, "or I'll call the police." "Call them by all means," I replied, as one of the settler girls strutted over to take my photo in an attempt to show that two could play at my game.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/seth_freedman/2008/01/the_cruelty_of_youths.html

[LeftishBrit]

1. He is right there

Unfortunately, violent teenage gangs are a problem in most places; but the settler communities enable their nastiness.

[Violet_Crumble]

2. These aren't merely violent teenage gangs....

Most places aren't occupied territory where Palestinians and even international peace groups don't get the protection they deserve, and when it comes to gangs in other countries even the local cops will do more than the Israeli govt and army will do if they torment other people...

[LeftishBrit]

5. Yes.

But in *many* places the police do sadly give more protection to those of the 'right' race and class. It's not unique to the occupied territories - but regardless, it's disgusting, and these thugs should be locked up. And these settlements need to end; a lot of them were illegal to begin with.

[Tom Joad]

6. The government of Israel committed the first crime, by allowing them into

the stolen land in the first place. This is land taken by force. I think the settlers are guilty of many things, but they are also pawns used by the Israeli regime.

It is simply illegal for an occupying power to transfer its citizens to the territory it occupies. Not only a good idea, its the law. for those of us traditionalists who believe in international law, and believe it should be applied for all.

"The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies."

[Crunchy Frog]

3. Violent teenage gangs

that are protected by soldiers are a really severe problem.

[bemildred]

4. You can always tell the ones that have never really been on the receiving end.

The arrogant blowhards that posture and strut and provoke.

[breakaleg]

7. This is one of the most disturbing aspect of the settlers, for me. Can you imagine any other place

where parent raise their children to be criminals? What kind of a parent would not only allow, but encourage their children to behave in this way? All in the name of religion. As far as I'm concerned these people know nothing about the religion they abuse to get what they want. I'd say they are the least religious people I can think of.

Shame on their parents.

[Vegasaurus]

8. I agree

and I hope you don't think that parents who raise their children to be suicide bombers (and are celebrated as national heros) are any better. I hope you have shame on them too.

[breakaleg]

10. Of course. I don't know that all suicide bombers (or even what percentage) are egged on

by their parents. Is that where the push originates? I kind of had the impression that while their actions are glorified after their deaths, that it's not something the parents knew about before hand. By all means, correct me if I'm wrong.

In the case of the settlers, you can see from many of the videos that the parents are complicit in the kids' actions.

I would certainly feel I had failed as a parent if my child turned out like either of the above cases.

[LeftishBrit]

11. No; many aren't

Indeed in the UK, most of the suicide bombers and would-be suicide bombers of July 2005 had gone against their families' wishes and traditions, and it caused the families great distress. However, there are some situations where families raise their children with the idea that being a 'martyr for one's faith' is a good thing.

It happens with all religions, sadly.

It's clear that many of the settlers are egging their kids on or at least condoning their actions and that is disgusting. I really hope that some of these kids will totally rebel and turn against their parents as they get older.

[pelsar]

12. I doubt it...

these kids arent "first generation' settlers...but 2nd..meaning their parents did this as well.....and many of these kids take their parents views..and go a bit further.......

in someways these are the "rebellious kids"...taking their youthful energy, combining with god, or any other "feel good" religion, which is always a dangerous mix and getting instant "extremist"......one of the few characteristics that crosses all colors, sizes, societies religions...

[azurnoir]

13. Maybe you tel me if this is true

I have read that at the very least in the West Bank under law Israeli children under 12 literally can not be charged with a crime and that the age of adulthood is different for Israeli's and Palestinians Israelis it's 18 and Palestinians 16 or 14.

You could almost say the same about US if you take a White kid from the 'burbs and a Black kid from the city who both commit similar crimes the Black kid is more likely to be tried as an adult, but the court has to certify him/her as such first

[pelsar]

14. the laws differ...

the kids are citizens of israel vs the Palestinians living under military law......kids under 12 can be charged, like anywhere else in the world.....
As far as i know 18 is the division between adult and kid under both laws.....but there any similarity ends.

A palestenian throwing a rock may get tossed in to detention...a settler wont even get his/her hands slapped.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

16. I think the notion of parents pushing kids to become

suicide bombers is a fantasy.

[Vegasaurus]

17. Really?

Then why are the parents paid a generous fee when their children martyr themselves? And why are they so proud of these children's deaths?

Or any of these (there are countless such examples):

In an interview with National Geographic, a suicide bomber's mother admitted that it was she who instilled in her son the desire for martyrdom and "brought them up to become martyrs, to be martyrs for the name of Allah." Her "martyred" son Muhammad's old bedroom was adorned with posters of martyred Palestinians and featured a photo of Muhammad on the computer screensaver. The mother, Miriam Farhat, was elected to the Palestinian Legislative Council on the Hamas ticket in January 2006.


The Palestinian media is a primary vehicle used to promote the martyrdom of children. In Sept. 2002, the PA renewed broadcasting of one of the most odious PA video clips, the "Farewell Letter." In the clip, a child writes a farewell letter to his parents, glorifying his desire to die, and then places himself in front of Israeli soldiers during a violent riot where he is shot and dies, achieving his goal. The words are sung: " For my country, I shall sacrifice myself... How sweet is Shahada ... Be joyous over my blood and do not cry for me." (source: IMRA.org)

Another Palestinian Authority TV program clip, aimed at young viewers, features a boy killed in Gaza arriving in heaven where there are beaches, waterfalls, and a Ferris wheel. He is saying, "I am not waving goodbye, I am waving to tell you to follow in my footsteps." On the accompanying soundtrack, a song plays, "How pleasant is the smell of martyrs, how pleasant the smell of land, the land enriched by the blood, the blood pouring out of a fresh body."

Religious leaders also encourage the martyrdom of children. Sheik 'Ikrimi Sabri, the Palestinian Authority-appointed mufti of Jerusalem, declared: "I feel the martyr is lucky because the angels usher him to his wedding in heaven... The younger the martyr, the greater and the more I respect him." ("Al-Ahram Al-Arabi" - Oct. 28, 2000)

Parents are also portrayed in Palestinian society as supporting their children's death. "Al-Ayyam" newspaper quotes a mother who encouraged her sons to sacrifice themselves for Palestinian beliefs:

"The danger of injury to the boy Tzabar Ashkaram, 18, paralysis and permanent disability, just added to his mother's determination to encourage her sons to participate in the intifada riots... the fact of his injury by a live bullet did not cause her to mourn. She said she had previously lost her older son, Iyyad." (Nov. 1, 2000)

Another Palestinian mother was quoted in the London Times: "I am happy that has been martyred. I will sacrifice all my <12> sons and daughters to Al-Aqsa and Jerusalem."

BBC broadcast a video of a proud Palestinian mother embracing her son and sends him proudly on his way to kill Jews. "God willing you will succeed," she says. "May every bullet hit its target, and may God give you martyrdom. This is the best day of my life."

on edit: Much of this is in video or print format, so you don't have to believe my word, but can go see it yourself. So yes, Palestinian parents absolutely do encourage their children to become suicide bombers.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. I don't believe yr word...

Mainly because that stuff wasn't yr words, but you copying and pasting something that originated at 'Honest' Reporting. http://www.teachkidspeace.org/doc1018.php (that site is a site run by 'Honest' Reporting)...


Now, do you actually have anything to say about the settlers?

[Vegasaurus]

21. Doesn't matter the source

Each and every one of those lines can be verified in video or in print.

Do you deny that?

[Violet_Crumble]

22. How come the source suddenly doesn't matter when yesterday it did?

Remember? 'Zmag is a rag'? ;)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=196670&mesg_id=196731

I'm sure each and every one of those lines could be either verified or in their context be shown to be false or incorrect, but as I highly doubt that you've gone back to the sources to check for yrself, and have no ability to speak or read Arabic, and fail to see that what appears on any highly partisan site with an agenda to peddle should be checked and not taken at face value, why are you insisting everyone must take yr word for it?

[Vegasaurus]

23. I have seen a number of them

on You Tube even.

Do you deny the story of the Hamas parliamentary mother's comments, from Nat'l Geographic? Someone else on the forum cited them this week even.

Do you not believe that these things are said, and that people are paid money for their children's martyrdom, that there are trading cards for martyrs, etc? This is all well documented, with photographs, and video. The TV versions have been translated and retranslated, from the Mickey Mouse on down.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Oh well, if it's on You Tube, we don't need to know Arabic...

You hadn't read any of that stuff you quoted from Honest Reporting in its original context, had you?

What I believe is that while there's *some* who do, yr attempts to paint it as a universal type thing based on nothing more than a reliance on highly partisan sites and no knowledge of the original sources or Arabic aren't correct at all...

[Vegasaurus]

26. I'll ask you again

Do you believe the Hamas parliamentary mother's comments on martyring her children?

You can say you think that this is a rare instance, but I am afraid that the evidence speaks against you.

Doesn't matter/ You can believe whatever you want. I was just commenting on the post that suggested there are no other places where people teach their kids violence, because that remark was particularly laughable.

[Violet_Crumble]

29. And until you answer just one of the questions you've been asked, you can keep asking...

You can say you think that this is a rare instance, but I am afraid that the evidence speaks against you.

Where did I say that? I didn't....

[breakaleg]

27. Their child is dead. What do you expect them to say? It comes across more along the

lines of trying to find some little bit of understanding out of a lose-lose situation. I think those words speak of desperation and probably a little pragmatism, knowing that they have to live in that community.

[msmcghee]

28. Words of desparation? From this distraught mother?

Pretty funny.

Mariam Farhat, 56, has over the past five years become a symbol of Palestinian motherhood amidst the ongoing terrorist war to eradicate the Jewish state. Farhat has not only given three of her sons for the cause, but has actively participated in their training as well, earning her the moniker "Mother of Martyrs."

Farhat, 56, has strong militant credentials, including an appearance carrying a gun in a video in which she advised one of her sons, Mohammed, on tactics before he attacked a Jewish settlement, killing five Israelis before he was shot dead in the assault on a post in the Gaza Strip in 2002.

Farhat's eldest son, Nidal, was killed in 2003 as he was preparing for another attack. A third son, Rawad, died earlier this year in an Israeli air strike on his rocket-carrying car. Three other sons are still alive, for now.

Farhat, popularly known as Umm Nidal and regarded by Palestinians as a "mother of martyrs", said: "I am pleased that Hamas trusted me and I declare I will be at the service of my movement." She was seen by Palestinian analysts as a sure vote-winner, al-Jazeera reported.

Farhat said Hamas' decision to participate in Palestinian politics did not contradict its ultimate military goals to replace Israel. "The jihadist project completes the political one and the political project cannot be completed without jihad," she told Reuters, using the Arabic term for "holy struggle" against the Jewish state, indicating that military means alone could complete the job.

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/7222.htm

[LeftishBrit]

37. I would not trust this source; but sadly the story is confirmed in a number of other places...

e.g.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4767634.stm

It is clearly not a common situation; but it's not unknown either - nor unique to any one religion or cause. In many, perhaps most, wars, parents are encouraged to feel that it is justifiable and noble for their children to sacrifice themselves - and kill others - for the cause; and while it is not an easy ideology for parents to fully accept, some do.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

38. As there may have actually been a few welfare queens too...

but it is not widespread.

There was a terrific documentary on HBO last year

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/todieinjerusalem/index.html

This actually had 2 mothers talking: one was the mother of the young female suicide bomber, the other the mother of an Israeli victim. It was interesting on both the personal and political level. I encourage you to view it if at all possible.

LB, unfortuantely many of your pro-Israeli colleagues are only interested in exploiting this as a weapon when the fact is it's much more complex than that.

[msmcghee]

39. Yes, but there are not many places in the world . .

. . where "parents are encouraged to feel that it is justifiable and noble for their children to sacrifice themselves - and kill others - for the cause" - when those "others" are the innocent civilians of the enemy.

The "moral equivalence" argument pervades the anti-Israel side of this conflict. It is meant to justify the killing of Jews in the eyes of the world. If you think that's good, go ahead and apologize for it.

Attacking civilians is immoral.

Defending civilians from attack is moral.

Those who sit on the fence are justifying the murder of innocent civilians. I am surprised at your inability to unequivocally condemn attacks on innocent civilians (terrorism) in this conflict. Do you approve, disapprove - or do you like to move back and forth on that depending on the ethnicity of the innocent civilians?

[LeftishBrit]

41. I disapprove (more than disapprove) and it doesn't depend on the ethnicity

Not only was I on London public transport the day before the July bombings; I lived for many years with a significant threat from the IRA.

But do you honestly think that there are NOT quite a few places in the world where people think that attacking civilians is OK if it benefits your country or cause? What do you think about the American and British war on Iraq?

No; this didn't cause, let alone justify, the actions of Hamas.

But we are not going to solve or prevent many problems, now or in the future (and I'm not just referring to I/P)if we don't acknowledge that there are a significant number of people who *will* attack those of an out-group in the name of a cause; and not necessarily in defence of civilians; and that this is often glorified.

From a Scottish Jacobite folk song:

"I once had sons but now I have none;
I bred them toiling sarely
But I would bear them all again
To live and die for Charlie."

From Wilfred Owen's famous WW1 poem, "Dulce et Decorum Est", about the death of a soldier from gassing:

"If you could see ..

My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old lie, "Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori."


Children 'ardent for some desperate glory' have been indoctrinated to die and kill for religious and nationalist and other causes, over the centuries. In war, and in terrorist acts - listen to some Irish folk songs! In the past, it is true that fewer people and in particular fewer civilians died as a result(though the fighters often had no more choice than many of their modern counterparts). Due to the development of ever more powerful weapons, war and terror can kill far more people at once now than in the past. So it's even more important now to keep these dangers in mind. Not to justify Hamas or the still uglier Islamic Jihad. But to acknowledge that this all represents a dangerous and easily-exploited, aspect of human nature that can and does arise anywhere.

[msmcghee]

42. You say you disapprove - more than disapprove -

. . of mothers teaching their children to kill the civilians of another state or people. That's commendable.

Now, show me one example going back to the start of the state of Israel in May of 1948 when the government of Israel, any government spokesman or any mother of an Israeli soldier - encouraged those IDF members to kill Palestinain civilians or told them that killing innocent Palestinian civilians was an honorable thing to do - or would grant them quick passage to heaven - or would earn their family a bounty if they died trying.

As you know I can provide pages of links to videos of Palestinian political leaders, religious leaders and mothers saying exactly those things - and saying them to children as young as five years old.

I you wish to pretend that there is some moral equivalence there - that both sides engage in such activities equally be my guest. But expect me to comment on the disconnect from reality.

Added: To be clear, you say "this all represents a dangerous and easily-exploited, aspect of human nature that can and does arise anywhere."

It does not arise anywhere. It did not and has not arisen in Israel. I find it sad that you would imply that Israel is guilty of these things - when actually it has a better record than any western nation in history as far as avoiding enemy civilian casualties to the point of accepting significant casualties of its own to avoid them and passing up opportunities to kill militants when civilians are at risk. The moral question is important. It has an effect on militaries that do try to avoid civilian casualties. You can't avoid wondering if some IDF commander on the ground - perhaps after reading your comments here - might be faced with a decision in the following days as to place his soldiers at risk to capture a militant - or just call in a bomb on his house - if he might not be inclined to take the easy way out and take all his soldiers home safely.

Failure to condemn immorality is the same as justifying it.

The IDF deserves the world's praise IMO, not their condemnation.

BTW - I noticed your subtle shift of topics from - mothers (and societies) that teach their children that murdering the innocent civilians of another state is honorable and praiseworthy - to "Children 'ardent for some desperate glory' have been indoctrinated to die and kill for religious and nationalist and other causes, over the centuries."

That is not the topic of the discussion. I am not claiming that Israelis do not teach their children that dieing in the service of protecting their citizens from attack is honorable. They do, and it is.

[Vegasaurus]

43. That may be true, LB

But the fact remains that younger and younger children are becoming suicide bombers, with their parents' blessing. We try to understand this across cultures, and really can't. There aren't other examples of this magnitude.

Add to that that many suicide bombers are not destitute and poor, but wealthy or educated (like Mohammed Atta). So, trying to explain their behavior as the result of desperation isn't accurate in these cases.

[Scurrilous]

44. "But the fact remains that younger and younger children are becoming suicide bombers.."

Really?

Can you provide the names and ages of the all the Palestinian children who have blown themselves up in suicide attacks on Israelis (in chronological order).

I would help illustrate your fact that the attackers are getting younger and younger.

And can you provide a link where each of these child suicide bombers carried out their act with their parent's blessing?

Thank you.

[Violet_Crumble]

45. Hope you weren't holding yr breath on that one...

Right now they're too busy in another thread telling me what a bunch of raving antisemites the Palestinian people are. Of course, facts and stuff aren't coming into it :)

[Dick Dastardly]

46. Here is the info you with many links inside it. I have much more on this if needed

While I dont think all Palestinian parents want their kids to be martyrs/shahids as well as happy about it there certainly are many that are supportive of it on various levels from happy,proud and approvingly wanting a martyr child to grudgingly acceptive of it as their child's duty. Longstanding cultural roots that deems martyrs as heroic as well as all sorts of propaganda bombarding them with the glorification of martyrs, hatred, unrealistic expectations etc etc ,now combine that to their perceived wrongs(true or not it doesn't matter, only what they believe does) against them as well as terrible living conditions and it cant help but to have affected both children and adults to a degree that the unthinkable is very thinkable and approvingly so. The fact that at times an unreal 80%(usually around 60-70% do from memory) of the Palestinians support suicide bombings on civilians is another piece of evidence of this.


Suicide Bombers' Mother Elected to Palestinian Parliament
'Mother of the Struggle' Says She Would Sacrifice Remaining Sons for Jihad
GAZA, Jan. 26, 2006 —


Mariam Farahat, who was elected to the Palestinian parliament, can work a crowd like a veteran politician -- shaking hands and greeting supporters. When she gets on the stage at a Hamas rally, she is the star attraction. She was one of Hamas' most popular candidates in Wednesday's election.

In Gaza, Farahat is known as Um Nidal, or Mother of the Struggle -- a mother who sent three of her six sons on Hamas suicide missions against Israeli targets.

"We consider it holy duty," she told ABC News. "Our land is occupied. You take all the means to banish the occupier. I sacrificed my children for this holy, patriotic duty. I love my children, but as Muslims we pressure ourselves and sacrifice our emotions for the interest of the homeland. The greater interest takes precedence to the personal interest."

She is most famous for her presence in a Hamas video, showing her 17-year-old how to attack Israelis and telling him not to return. Shortly afterward, he killed five students in a Jewish settlement before he was killed himself.

Um Nidal's home has become a shrine to her dead sons, with admirers and other members of Hamas often dropping by.

Um Nidal is not your typical Hamas candidate, but she does represent an extreme wing of the party -- one that is wildly popular despite being downplayed in this election.

more
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/print?id=1536576

This has a lot of info on the attacks and attempted as well as supporting links with much more. I also have more if you need it. It is Wiki but it is supported with outside evidentiary links
Child suicide bombers in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

snip
Mia Bloom writes in her 2005 book Dying to Kill: The Allure of Suicide Terror: "Since November 2000, Palestinian public opinion has increasingly supported suicide bombing, even though support for such operations fluctuated in the past, it has alarmingly shifted towards radical Islamic organizations."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict#_note-4


snip
Anne Speckhard, adjunct associate Professor of Psychiatry, Georgetown University Medical Center and Professor of Psychology, Vesalius College, Free University of Brussels, writes:

"In the Palestinian territories, there currently exists a “cult of martyrdom.” From a very young age children are socialized into a group consciousness that honors “martyrs”, including human bombers who have given their lives for the fight against what is perceived by Palestinians to be the unjust occupation of their lands. Young children are told stories of “martyrs.” Many young people wear necklaces venerating particular “martyrs”, posters decorate the walls of towns and rock and music videos extol the virtues of bombers. Each act of suicide terrorism is also marked by a last testament and video, which are prepared ahead of time by the “martyr” who can later reach great popularity when the video is played on television. Despite the very deep and real grief of the family and friends left behind, the funerals of “martyrs” are generally accompanied with much fanfare by community and sponsoring organization. Often, the effect of this is confusing to outsiders as it can disrupt, delay and even circumvent the family’s ability to focus on its grief over the loss of a family member and it may even support the family in claiming to outsiders joy over the loss of its loved one. This “cult of martyrdom”, which has a strong underpinning in longstanding cultural roots (the honoring of martyrs), appears to have developed principally over the last decade, as the first act of suicide terrorism occurred in Israel only twelve years ago."
http://www.uwmc.uwc.edu/alumni/news_items/speckhard/uanderstanding%20_suicide.pdf


Israelis say boy, 11, used as bomber

[Vegasaurus]

47. I provided the same facts

Apparently, even a Hamas Parliamentary mother, willing and eager (and proud) of the sacrifice of her sons for the sake of killing Isarelis is just not good enough evidence.

The fact is, children are suicide bombers in Palestine, urged on and celebrated by their parents. It's an ugly reality.

[Dick Dastardly]

48. Actually you only gave part of it.

I figured I would help you out with the professional psychological profile of the Dr, the list of children and ages,dates and more in the wiki link as well as mountains of links to other various corroborating evidence in the wiki link. I am normally not a fan of wiki unless it has an overwhelming amount of various supporting links which this one has. I have much more data from various sources that I can give if someone needs more. Due to my work I am among other things very good at finding and analyzing data to form an effective supported detailed argument. There is a lot of BS(not directing at you) from both sides and I can smell it out pretty good

[Vegasaurus]

49. Doesn't matter how good an effective and supported detailed argument is

People still won't believe you

[ProgressiveMuslim]

50. I think of this phenom as somewhat similar to

some military families in the states. We also honor our warriors. We parade them, laud them, fund them and mourn their deaths. Some kids are inculcated from the time they are young to do this. My neighbor's kid is in Iraq. She was sick that he made that choice. She hates the war. But she has a huge flag hanging in front of her house and yellow ribbons on her car. She has to honor her kid.

Regardless of what people say after the fact, once the deed is done, what choice do most parents have?

The woman you cite may well believe all that, but she's the exception rather than the rule.

I think the phenom far, far, far more complicated than portrayed here in this forum. But of course it's so much more effective for the Rush-Limbaugh-like-zealots to scream: There won't be peace until Palestinian parents love their kids more than they hate Israel.

I recommend that anyone who really wants a view into what parents think watch the recent HBO documentary, "To die in Jerusalem" in which mother of bomber and mother of victim confront each other.

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/todieinjerusalem/index.html

[Dick Dastardly]

51. I agree it most certainly is a complicated thing

A few statements either way is hardly any sort of absolute proof of such a nuanced and emotionally charged issue. As I said it is not as simple as parents want their kids to be martyrs/shahids as well as happy about it. There are many levels of support including outward phony support. That is why I posted the the psychiatry report for a more nuanced look to a complicated issue. The fact is there is considerable support an acceptance of this unthinkable act where there should be none but its still not so cut and dry as some would try to make it.

I also want to say hello to you and Vegasaurus as well as thank both of you for your civil tone unlike one person I dealt with her.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

52. I wish more people saw

the ongoing violent military occupation of Palestine -- that denies millions life, liberty and the pursuit of everything -- as an unacceptable act.

Unfortunately, most people in Israel and beyond are quite content to allow that unacceptable situation to go on in perpetuity.

[Violet_Crumble]

53. Maybe you could supply some info that actually answers the question that was asked...

I'll repeat the question Scurrilous asked

Can you provide the names and ages of the all the Palestinian children who have blown themselves up in suicide attacks on Israelis (in chronological order).

I would help illustrate your fact that the attackers are getting younger and younger.

And can you provide a link where each of these child suicide bombers carried out their act with their parent's blessing?

As for what you did post, I know that back a few years ago the support for suicide bombings in polls did get to a high level. But keep in mind that support in polls from Israelis concerning things most people would find appalling, such as the expulsion of Palestinians from Israel and the Occupied Territories, have also been high...

When it comes to the wealth of information provided by the Wiki link, why would you expect anyone to waste their time on a page that's tagged with 'the neutrality of this article is disputed'?

[Lithos]

54. A list

I think it is statistically inconclusive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

[Dick Dastardly]

55. I stated that I know its a wiki page but that the links are not affected

Anyway I wasnt the one who was asked, I was just being helpful

The list of suiicide bombers is not the disputed part. You can read that in the discussion too. Outside links have plenty of info which are from many sources


I also posted the psych eval by a respected Dr. as well as links that shows support of may of the parents



As for what you did post, I know that back a few years ago the support for suicide bombings in polls did get to a high level. But keep in mind that support in polls from Israelis concerning things most people would find appalling, such as the expulsion of Palestinians from Israel and the Occupied Territories, have also been high...


What does that have to do with 80% of Palestinians accepting of suicide bombing civilians including women and children? As bad as it is how is that equivilant to supporting mass murder?


Do have these polls? I would like to see the issues and numbers. I will give you the many I have if you wish

[Violet_Crumble]

18. If you did agree....

You'd actually spend a bit of time (even one sentence would do) expressing even a bit of opposition to the settler extremists instead of the usual Look Over There!!!! tactic of trying to change the subject away from the settlers...

[Vegasaurus]

20. I don't usually respond to you

but since you are attacking (as usual) I will say this:

read my post. I said, I AGREE. I think the settlers' violence is terrible.

and my post was in response to this line Can you imagine any other place where parent raise their children to be criminals? What kind of a parent would not only allow, but encourage their children to behave in this way? All in the name of religion.

This is bullshit. ANY OTHER PLACE would be where parents celebrate their children blowing other people up, and killing themselves in the process. There is a celebration of martyrdom all over the middle east.

That is just as sick, and in fact more so, because it is not just disgusting throwing of rocks, but celebrating death. There is a difference.

[Violet_Crumble]

24. No-one's forcing you to reply to anyone...

And instead of complaining about non-existant attacks, try and READ what I said. Gosh, you said two words about the settlers and then embarked on a multi-post thing about suicide bombers....

Also, you seem to be totally unaware that settlers have murdered Palestinians before and some do celebrate their deaths. So maybe you'd like to explain what the difference is again?

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Some examples of settlers murdering Palestinians...

Jewish settlers kill three

Jewish settlers kill Palestinian girl after funeral

Settlers kill Palestinian boy

And if you think the settlers don't celebrate death, think again:

'These are the Jewish extremists who annually celebrate the 1994 slaughter of 29 Palestinian worshippers by their fellow settler Baruch Goldstein, and admire Eden Natan-Zeda, the anti-disengagement deserter from Tapuakh who shot dead four Israeli Arabs on a bus in August.'

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1856469,00.html

[Vegasaurus]

31. They are disgusting

I have no use for the settlers.

The point was that these settler parents are IN NO WAY the only parents who encourage their children to be violent. There seems to be a deep culture of violence throughout the middle east that is very disturbing. I don't doubt that growing up in a constant state of war, for both Israelis and Palestinians, has dulled their senses to the violence the outside world can witness on a daily basis.

Most Israelis are nothing like the settlers though, and perhaps most Palestinians are not like the Hamas parliamentary mother, although their media indicates otherwise.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. This is where yr going wrong, though...

Most Israelis are nothing like the settlers though, and perhaps most Palestinians are not like the Hamas parliamentary mother, although their media indicates otherwise.

See, the thing is you say 'their media' based on stuff you see on highly partisan American sites that have a particular agenda. Examples of some (and I stress the word *some*) does not mean most Palestinians are like that. After all, the use of highly partisan American web-sites could also be used in a very similar way to argue that perhaps most Israelis are not like the settlers, although their media (Arutz Sheva, etc) indicates otherwise....

A much more realistic way to look at it is that both people have their extremists, but that the majority of both people would be just wanting to live their lives without the extremists violence and would no more celebrate killings by extremists any more than Americans would celebrate things like the deaths of Iraqi civilians killed by US bombings in Iraq...

[Tom Joad]

33. what is more extreme than supporting an illegal occupation through the use of military force for

40 years?

[msmcghee]

34. Supporting attacks against the innocent civilians . .

. . of a country that makes that occupation necessary as self defense. And then whining about oppression when those terrorists are attacked.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. So it's okay to support attacks on innocent civilians in other situations?

Like when they're not 'the innocent civilians of a country that makes that occupation necessary as self defense'? Because that bit about occupation being necessary as self defense is merely yr opinion, and as you were just telling me in another thread, opinions aren't worth squat, though I suspect you weren't meaning to talk about yr own like that. See, the problem is that deciding what is and isn't self-defense is a subjective thing and people aren't going to agree, which is why most people here in this thread are opposed to attacks on ANY innocent civilians. There's nothing that makes it acceptable, regardless of whether the attacks are carried out by Palestinians or Israelis...

[msmcghee]

40. I have no idea what you're talking about.

If you can make some sense out of that I might respond.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Let's see. The murder of innocent civilians on both sides by extremists is...

And that's what this thread is about, or what it has become. I don't care for making numbered and prioritised lists of what or who is more extreme, so I'll leave you with it...

on edit: I thought I'd clarify something. While I strongly oppose the occupation, I'm pretty sure that it's not the occupation itself that's illegal, but aspects of it like the settlements etc. While it's legally referred to as a belligerant occupation rather than a benign one, and the clear intent of successive Israeli governments has been to change the demographic nature of the Occupied Territories, the occupation itself didn't begin out of extremism, and not all Israeli govts have continued it out of extremist motives (Nutty's one of the obvious extremist ones). What Israeli govts have been guilty of imo is pandering to the extremists like the Hebron settlers and refusing to pull them into line while demanding that the much weaker PA stop its extremists...

But when it comes to extremism, the worst sort of all is the killing of civilians by extremists with their nasty ideological beliefs where they convince themselves that some human life isn't worthy depending on which group of people the victim belongs to. Someone who supports the occupation might be an extremist, but that's not what makes them an extremist. If people support the occupation because they're misguided and honestly think it's all about Israel's security, how are they extremists, let alone extremists who are even worse than those who actually kill innocent civilians on both sides?

[LeftishBrit]

9. I fully agree; the parents are enabling their children's crimes in the name of religion

Shame on them is right.

It does happen elsewhere - from Muslim extremists who encourage their children to become suicide bombers, to Catholic and Protestant parents who encouraged their offspring in violence against one another's communities in Northern Ireland.(Not to mention the Phelps crime family...) None of which is an excuse for the settler parents!

[Tom Joad]

15. and here too. parents who encourage their children to join the US Marines

for example. The US, after all, is spearheading an illegal war of aggression.