The Palestine Solidarity Movement and the Civil Rights Struggle in America

[Resistance]

http://southend.wayne.edu/days/2003/October/1022003/oped/rights/rights.html

The people who are oppressing black people (and Arabs, Hispanics, Gays, Transgender) are the same people oppressing Palestinians in the Middle East. Bush attacks affirmative action in the United States and Bush sends ten billion dollars in loan guarantees to Israel and another five billion dollars in direct aid (cash). Defeating Bush at either front will lead to a weakening of Bush at the other front. This is an integral internationalist perspective that is a cornerstone to being in solidarity with other struggles crossing sectarian, religious and racial lines.

It is only with this perspective that either of the struggles have a chance of accomplishing their goals. The Palestine Solidarity Movement and the Civil Rights Movement cannot afford to work independently of one another or to ignore other peoples of color and the working class. The strongest front that either movement can put up against Bush is one based on a united front of all oppressed people. No one movement has the strength today to defeat Bush's policies at home or in the Middle East. It is nothing to be ashamed of or to cower away from; it is only recognizing the power of the U.S. government and the tasks that lay before everyday people toward gaining their freedom.

[laura888]

1. Yes, I'm aware of this connection...

...the anniversary of M.L. King's march on washington did not receive very much attention from the press - I think it was because one of the speakers for the event was pro-Palestine.

Injustice anywhere should be fought!

[rudeboy666]

2. question

I thought that the Israelis were people of color too?

[rini]

6. Ah

Klan rhetoric. Brings back memories. I heard in often growing up in the south. "Why child your almost white." The dark haired, brown eyed man said to (me) the blond haired blue eyed child. Brought out a deep curiosity about his genetic background.......born stupid or just raised that way?

[Jackie97]

16. Yeah....

Have you not heard of the prejudice in Israel against Ethiopian Jews?

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[laura888]

4. African-americans can relate to the oppression of Palestinians...

...its the same old story. A group in power steals resources from those with less power. The story in Israel is a repeat of the story of the white man's treatment of those of color in America. and South Africa.

forgive me, I am not african-american, but I am FOR JUSTICE, and this story is familiar.

Sadly, too. I really thought the human race was progressing.

[rini]

5. First

1. It was a Jew who encouraged the formation of, financed and worked with the NAACP at the beginning of the 20th C.
2. Jews were among the first to stand up for civil rights in the 1950s and 60s.
3. Finally, when you think about one people oppressing another, think of Israelis being murdered by Hammas or Fatah or...and then think about the Klan...claiming all these murders were the fault of the very people they murdered!

[laura888]

7. The actions of Israel as a state..

...are different from actions taken by American Jews in the Civil Rights era.

The noble actions of a German-American today can't make up for the behavior of the German state in WWII. One would say the connection is flimsy.

In the same way, Israel today cannot hide behind the noble actions of individual jews in the 1960's.


Your #3 is ludicrous - if Israel stopped oppressing the Palestinians, Israel's "oppressors" would go away.

[Cassandra]

9. Really?

"Your #3 is ludicrous - if Israel stopped oppressing the Palestinians, Israel's "oppressors" would go away."

Where would they go?

[Equinox]

13. Possibly back to a house that wouldn't be demolished....

and..........get this.....he/she may not have to pass through 15 checkpoints to get there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Bada boom bada bing!

:wow:

Edit: fixed something

[Jim Sagle]

12. #3 wasn't at all ludicrous. But your "rebuttal" sure was.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[Darranar]

55. Why do you think he keeps files on anyone?

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

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[Darranar]

57. That was done by a simple search...

It isn't too hard.

Ashcroft would never take him. Forkboy has a sense of humor, while Ashkkkroft has none. Not to mention the fact that their politics are more than a bit different.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

59. Forkboy didn't do that...

I can assure you that.

[Jim Sagle]

10. So did I. Then I read your post.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. Unlike YOU

I am African-American.

Jewish people have sided with my people for so long its incredible. We know how abused they have been by their neighbors and we stand by them.

I too am for justice. After 2,000 years, I would hope that the Jewish people could find it. Truly that is not the case.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. African-Americans don't march in lock-step with you...

Speak for yrself, Muddle, and stop taking it upon yrself to speak on behalf of entire groups of people as though they all think the same as you. Me, I would expect that anyone who relates to oppressed groups would both feel deeply about the past persecution of the Jewish people and would also feel deeply over other oppressed groups and not make endless excuses for why the latter persecution is okay...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. I spoke for myself

But the previous poster claimed to speak for my people and that, well it's crap.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. So you use the royal 'we' when you speak for yrself?

Somehow I doubt it. Here's a hint. If you want to speak for yrself, speak for yrself and don't pepper yr post with *we* the way you did. And read the post you were replying to again. The poster never claimed to be speaking for any people as a monolithic group that all think the same...

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

65. My view of my people

Unlike the poster, I have some personal perspective on the issue. I actually know African-Americans. I actually AM an African-American.

The poster said this:

"African-americans can relate to the oppression of Palestinians...

...its the same old story. A group in power steals resources from those with less power. The story in Israel is a repeat of the story of the white man's treatment of those of color in America. and South Africa.

forgive me, I am not african-american, but I am FOR JUSTICE, and this story is familiar."

I disagree. African-Americans can relate to the Jewish people who were sold into slavery and now, thanks to slavery have a worldwide diaspora and continue to be victimized.

[Darranar]

66. Many can relate with both...

I know many African-Americans. I am myself part African American. I think that many African Americans CAN and DO relate to the Palestinian suffering. I also know that many CAN and Do relate with the suffering of the Jews. How is relating with the suffering of both peoples contradictory?

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. Until peace is likely

Most people end up choosing sides.

Look at DU, a bunch of folks here don't even think Israel has a right to exist. A bunch more support Israel because it fighting a war of survival. (See group 1 for reasons.)

Kind of hard to stay on the sidelines for that.

[Darranar]

68. Well, guess what...

I DO support Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state - though the arguments against it are interesting and understandable.

I DON'T support ridiculous tactics for "survival." And I also don't understand why pro-Israel folks must deny Palestinian suffering.

[Muddleoftheroad]

70. Your points

No the arguments against Israel are not understandable, except in anti-Semitic concept.

Yes, I agree Palestinians suffer. But I disagree with you why. I think they have brought much of it on themselves after the Arab world thrust it on them in the first place. Why did the Palestinians decide on the path of terror and not peace? Why not civil disobedience instead of murdering women and children?

[Darranar]

73. dupe

n/t

[Darranar]

74. Junk...

The arguments against Israel are that racism to prevent racism is not justified. But there's no racism some would say. That's not true. Jews get preferential treatment in immigration. That makes Israel's immigration polciy RACIST. Is that justified? I say yes, after a large amount of thought. Others say no, and their perspective is perfectly understandable.

"They've brought it on themselves" can be claimed by both sides in this conflict, and with good reason. That doesn't change the fact that the Palestinains ARE currently beeing oppressed by the Israelis and the Israelis are being murdered by Palestinian terrorists. Neither one is justified.

[Violet_Crumble]

69. So you don't relate to the oppression of Palestinians...

I'm sure many other Afro-Americans do, and I don't give a shit whether yr black, white, green, or purple. I get the irrits when anyone tries to portray their unwillingness to relate to the oppression of any group of people as being a blanket view of all in their particular group....



Violet...

[undergroundrailroad]

8. How interesting and how true. Thank you for posting this article.

Undergroundrailroad

[Jim Sagle]

11. How soon we forget.

[Equinox]

14. Yeah...really...

I mean equating American Jews with Ultra Zionist wingnuts who kill and steal another people's land is just outrageous. I'm glad we agree Jim.

[Jim Sagle]

21. We don't agree on nuthin', Eq. But hey, you knew that.

:-)

[Jackie97]

15. That was a nice article.

Thanks for posting it.

[mmm]

17. That is one GREAT article

I support oppressed people wherever they may be
(I support the Palestinians 100%) - it's the Democratic thing to do.

[Equinox]

18. I don't support the Palestinians because it's the democratic thing to do.

I support them because it's the right thing to do.

[Cassandra]

47. What does that mean?

"I support the Palestinians 100%"
When suicide/homicide bombers murder innocent civilians and some Palestinans celebrate the news, are you celebrating with them? Do you follow the doings of Hamas, Hezbollah, et al as though you were rooting for rival soccer teams? When Palestinians say they consider Palestine to encompass all of Israel, do you prepare to take up arms with them? What does 100% support mean?

[LastDemInIdaho]

19. Considering the latest PA murder of dozens of innocent Israelis

This little edubreath concern pales in retrospect.

It's time to get serious about the unchecked murder of Israeli innocents.

[Darranar]

20. How did the PA murder anybody?

Oh, I forgot about the great Palestinian Authority conspiracy, composing of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the PA, Arafat, Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, and every other Palestinian who you don't like.

[Fight_n_back]

22. Hmmm

The IDF are murderers and liars, Sharon is a war criminal, the Israelis are warmongering imperilalists but the groups that Yassir Arafat runs and supports with money and infrastructure that commit acts of terror are always acting on their own.

Who gets them the money from Libya, Suadi Arabaia and Syria? How do they get weapons from Iran?

Perhpas its all done through UPS.

Its all very balanced of you.

[Darranar]

28. Hmm...

The IDF are murderers and liars

So is the Pentagon, and basically every other military force, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and yes, the PA.

Sharon is a war criminal

Anyone who orders massive bombing raids on heavy population centers is a war criminal.

the Israelis are warmongering imperilalists

When did I say that?

but the groups that Yassir Arafat runs and supports with money and infrastructure that commit acts of terror are always acting on their own.

Where is the evidence that he runs and supports those terrorist groups?

Who gets them the money from Libya, Suadi Arabaia and Syria? How do they get weapons from Iran?

Why is it neccesarily through the PA? There are dozens of ways to transfer money. Smuggling weapons doesn't require the approval of anyone.

Its all very balanced of you

Yah, I think it is, too. Both sides are liars; you have to test everything they say.

[Fozzledick]

26. Reagan's disease - selective amnesia

The PA and Al Aqsa Murderer's Brigade are under Arafat's personal command, and Hamas and Islamic Jihad operate under their protection.

But then you already knew that, didn't you?

[Fight_n_back]

27. Sir

Darranar needs incontrovertible proof of Palestinian or even Syrian malfeascence. Not even a confession will do.

Israel on the other hand, we all know they are lieing so no need to wait for evidence.

[Darranar]

30. See post #28...

Thanks.

[Darranar]

29. Er...

riiiighhhht...

According to whom? The IDf spokesman?

[Fight_n_back]

32. According to

the charter of the PA...


Come on do some research Al Aqsa is a unit inside Fatah which is directly under Arafats control, it isn't a secret. Read a paper. Christ

[Darranar]

33. Al Aqsa...

is a fringe group of Fatah. They regard the PA as thier leaders, loosely, but do not follow their orders. Thoug hthey are techinically part of Fatah, they are practically a seperate organization.

[Fight_n_back]

34. According to who?

the PA PR department?

[Darranar]

36. No...

here's why.

Arafat is a self-serving, power-hungry man. That is why he was so active in the Palestinian cause (through the PLO) years ago. He isn't concerned with ideology; power is all that interests him.

Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade is, essentially, a sort ofore recent version of the '80s PLO; a secular terrorist institution, unlike Hamas and Islamic Jihad. For this reason, they have female members and send female suicide bombers. At first, it seems the clear thing that Arafat would support; except for the fact that it would be another exucse for him to be demonized.

Arafat is walking the line here. He knows that Israel won't touch him unless he ceases to be useful; for that reason, he doesn't actively aid terrorist insitutions. He also knows that if he moves too far against the terrorists, his base of support will collapse and he will be toppled (perhaps with the aid of Israel; Sharon has never been known for his overwhelming concern about ideology, either.)

For this reason, he condemns the terrorist attacks, but does nothing to stop them. He tolerates them but does not aid them. That's what it seems like to me.

Evidence? Take the cease-fire, for instance. If Arafat was in full control of Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, he would have told them to join the cease-fire immediately. The cease-fire would benefit him politically, and he knew it. He didn't, though, because he wasn't able to. With his considerable (though not too great) influence over them (along with the pure peer pressure of the situation) Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade joined in as a late-comer.

[Fight_n_back]

41. In other words

you are guessing...

[Darranar]

42. Yes...

as are those who GUESS that the IDF isn't lying and take it for granted that Arafat is a terrorist.

I stand by innocent until proven guilty beyond reaosnable doubt.

[Fight_n_back]

43. No you don't

you bend over backwards to ignore what is done by Palestinian militants while assuming the worst about Israel.

but what is the point of telling you that? You probably don't own any mirrors either.

[Darranar]

44. Uh.. what?

I challenge you to find a thread about a suicide bombing in which I posted where I did not condemn it.

Suicide bombing is inexcusable and unjustified. That does not mean that it is not PROVOKED by other factors, such as the settlements. Just like the continuation of the occupation and the bulldozing of houses.

[rini]

52. Provoked?

Oh you mean by being alive, ok I get your meaning. That makes as much sense as killing a kid to get his sneakers, he provoked the killer, had no business working after school to get something nice. The nerve!

[Darranar]

53. ????

The settlements have nothing to do with being alive. However, the settlements, the occupation, and several other factors DO contribute to the desperation of the Palestinians, therefore greatly aiding terrorism.

That's what I meant, and that's what I said, simply with less words.

[rini]

60. excuses for murder...there are none

[Darranar]

61. True...

but REASONS for murder - there are some.

[Forkboy]

46. heh

you bend over backwards to ignore what is done by Israel while assuming the worst about Palestinians.

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Don't have to assume to the worst

The Palestinian terror groups remind us of it on an almost daily basis.

[Fight_n_back]

23. Who could ever forget

when Rosa Parks sat in the front of that bus, slowly reached into her coat and activated the explosives wrapped around her chest killing all aboard.

[varun]

24. Did you know that...

- Arabs and Muslims overwhelmigly voted for Bush in 2000? My Muslim friends in Florida tell me that 80% of Muslim vote went to Bush.

- Israelis are more tolerant of gays and lesbians than any other Arab nation. In fact, gay palestinian refugees hide in Israel for the fear that they would be murdered if they go back home.

[Darranar]

31. Evidence?

What evidence do you have that Arabs and Muslims overwhelmingly voted for Bush? I have my doubts...

- Israelis are more tolerant of gays and lesbians than any other Arab nation. In fact, gay palestinian refugees hide in Israel for the fear that they would be murdered if they go back home.

I know. They only beat them regularly in parks.

[varun]

37. here

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2003-09/02/article07.shtml

"..She warned that unlike the 2000 elections in which Arabs and Muslim Americans voted overwhelmingly for Bush, things could not stand a repeat in the 2004 presidential elections..."

http://www.dawn.com/2003/09/05/int15.htm

"...The AMPCC, that includes four major groups, Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the American Muslim Council, the American Muslim Alliance, and the Muslim Public Affairs Council, was instrumental in delivering a bloc Muslim vote in favour of President Bush in 2000 elections..."

http://pewforum.org/news/display.php?NewsID=2354

"...The Council on American-Islamic Relations in Washington, the largest
Islamic civil liberties group, released a poll after the 2000 election showing that 72 percent of Muslims voted for Bush, 8 percent for Democrat Al Gore and 19 percent for Ralph Nader, a Lebanese-American..."

About Gay palestinians:

http://www.eastbayvoice.org/NNews/NGLBTGayinPalestine.html
...During one interrogation, police stripped him and forced him to sit on a Coke bottle. Through the entire ordeal he was taunted by interrogators, jailers, and fellow prisoners for being a homosexual.

When he was released a few months later, Tayseer crossed into Israel. He now lives illegally in an Arab Israeli village and works in a
restaurant. His dream is to move to Tel Aviv. "No one there cares if
you're gay," he says. These days, though, he knows that an illegal Gazan in Tel Aviv risks being deported and that he's safest staying where he is.

And if he were sent back to Gaza? "The police will kill me," he says. "Unless my father gets to me first."

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cup/catalog/data/023111/0231113943.HTM

...Astonishingly, Israeli lesbians and gays have been able to achieve many political goals that still elude America´s gay community. Israel´s Supreme Court has mandated same-sex spousal benefits; the military, which never barred gays to begin with, has removed its last official restrictions; Israel´s parliament boasts a Subcommittee for the Prevention of Sexual Orientation Discrimination; and school curricula are gay-friendly -all of this in a country where religious interests wield extraordinary power and whose identity today is the object of fierce struggle.

[Darranar]

38. Okay...

that doesn't change the facts that gays and lesbians are abused in Israel, constantly.

[varun]

39. as a gay man...

I would be far more comfortable in Israel than in Plaestine/Syria/Iran/Pakistan....

[Darranar]

40. I never said you shouldn't be...

All I'm saying is that israel's record on gay rights is very far from perfect.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. Gays and lesbians are abused everywhere to some extent

But the Muslim areas seem to embrace the concept.

[Darranar]

51. "Muslim?"

More like "Fundamentalist," of any kind.

For goodness sake, it was only a while ago that sodomy officially became legal everywhere, and this country only has a small Muslim population.

[varun]

71. true

fundamentalists are the same everywhere..and USA has its share.

But look at the direction both societies (American and Arab) are taking...(as far as gay rights are concerned).

Both are headed the opposite way.

[Darranar]

75. No, I disagree...

They are both moving in the same direction - towards tolerance. Both are encountering setbacks, but one or two setbacks does not mean that as a whole they are moving the wrong way.

[varun]

76. I disagree...

I dont know how much "Gay news" you read...but I try to keep up with whats happening around the world in this area.

Recently, quite a few gay men were rounded up in Egypt (for lewd conduct) - they were just hanging out with other gay men. Over the last few years, these arrests have increased and the punishment more severe. The Arab regimes are doing this to distract from the growing resentment, anger and frustration of their population.

Taliban is Afghanistan used to kill gay men by burying them under falling walls/buildings. They have been uprooted from Afghanistan, but are now becoming bold in Pakistan.

Iran used to kill them by pushing them off cliffs...now its death by other means. Saudi Arabia routinely beheads them in public...

[Darranar]

77. Admittantly, there's still a long way to go...

I understand and acknowledge that.

[Fozzledick]

25. What change are you advocating?

Are you proposing that the Palestinians abandon the terrorist intifada and practice non-violence, or do you want the civil-rights movement to abandon non-violence and take up Palestinian-style terrorism?:shrug:

BTW, Bush has significantly reduced U.S. support for Israel to placate his Saudi oil buddies, but I guess that doesn't fit in with your Maoist party line.

[tinnypriv]

35. I might regret indulging you, but what the heck

Examples of how the Bush adminstration has "significantly reduced U.S. support for Israel", please.

[Fozzledick]

72. Not looking for a flame war, just stating my impressions

As reflected in posts 24 and 37 above, during the campaign Bush pandered to Muslim voters by promising to reduce support for Israel, and that's pretty much what he's done. It's hard to quantify because it's not manifested by any major action, but basically he's dropped all the subtle pressures that Bill Clinton had put on Arafat to stop terrorism and make peace while at the same time being far more critical of Israel in his public statements to try to placate Arab sentiment. It was more evident before 9-11 when he was often criticised for "disengagement", but the substance of his disengagement is that he's abandoned Clinton's policy of openly pressuring the Arabs to make peace while publicly supporting Israel at all times and privately encouraging them to negotiate. Bush just speaks out of both sides of his mouth while doing nothing substantive. His phoney "roadmap" is just a PR ploy to cover his unwillingness to offend his Saudi oil cronies by directly addressing the central problem of Palestinian terrorism.