War Enters the Classrooms

[Violet_Crumble]

War Enters the Classrooms
Jon Elmer

GAZA CITY, Feb 5 (IPS) - The United Nations has indefinitely suspended elementary school classes for tens of thousands of Gaza City's children following a weekend of unprecedented factional violence, which turned this isolated enclave into a war zone and left at least 27 dead and 250 wounded.

John Ging, director of operations for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) said, "we try to balance the risk of violence to kids and parents on the one hand, and the need for these kids to get an education on the other.

"The intensity of the fighting was such that we had no choice," Ging told reporters in Gaza.

The suspension of classes in Gaza City impacts dozens of UN schools, many of which are situated in immediate conflict areas.

The majority of Gaza's students are in the UN school system.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=36439

[pelsar]

1. and the pathetic conclusion....

"This is all a deadly theatre, directed by the Israelis.

if thats what the UN is teaching the children in schools..."blame the other for your problems"..their educations cornerstone is exactly wrong...and they will never be able to "pick themselves up" and start making something of themselves.....

the Hamas spokesman should have a word with this guy, and explain to him, as he put it: stop espousing conspiracy theories which "limit our thinking." and put a bit of pressure on them to change the curriculum

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Since when has one teacher's personal opinion morphed into what the UN teaches??

Or aren't teachers allowed to have personal opinions according to you?

While I find blaming Israel for everything to be tireseome and pathetic, I also find attitudes like yrs that blame the Palestinians for everything to be just as tiresome and pathetic...

[pelsar]

4. its a bad attitude...

Fatma Shaheen, a third grade Arabic teacher:

teaches her students to blame "someone else" for their troubles.....i would be very pissed if the teachers of my kids had that atitude. So would most parents that want their kids to "get ahead" in life.

and yes i blame the palestinians 100% for putting all the blame for their troubles on israel...its an attitude that guarantees failure.

(its a UN sponsored school...i believe that makes them partially responsable for what is being taught)

[Porcupine]

5. They can't leave, they can't trade, they have no water to garden....

and they haven't enough food to go around.

NOW WHICH SET OF ASSHOLES CAUSED ALL THAT?

When they try Ghandi style mass non-violent protests they are met with stun grenades, water cannons and rubber bullets by the IDF.

But you think they have a "bad attitude."

Some people just confirm that the human race is morally beneath cockroaches. Cockroaches stop at eating and breeding.

[pelsar]

6. mass non violent protests?

cant really recall any Ghandi style mass non violent protests...perhaps show me some....news article? links?...something?
(closest thing i can recall was the start of intifada I, but that also had rocks)

and i do define NON VIOLENT, as i believe Ghandi did.. no rocks, no Molotov cocktails, no knives, no destroying property etc
_____

(actually there was one last week....in Gaza against hamas and fatah, not too big, but it did show up)

but so what?
a attitude that guarantees failure is just that.....and those that support such attitudes or give support for such a are hardly helping the palestinians....

[Porcupine]

7. Remember Rachel Corrie?

Where's the guy who ran her over with a bulldozer? He's still driving a dozer and destroying peoples houses I'm sure.






So if the IDF is willing to run down unarmed US citizens with bulldozers do we really think that the people living in Gaza have anything in the way or rights?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38959-2004May19.html">Israel Attack Kills 10 at Gaza Protest

Thursday, May 20, 2004; Page A01

RAFAH, Gaza Strip, May 19 -- An Israeli helicopter gunship and a tank fired rockets and artillery shells at Palestinian protesters Wednesday as they marched toward a heavily populated neighborhood in the southern Gaza Strip. At least 10 Palestinians were killed and dozens wounded, many of them children, as explosives and shrapnel ripped through the crowd.

Witnesses and survivors said soldiers gave no warning before opening fire. After what witnesses described as deafening explosions, children screamed amid the blood and body parts. Some of the crowd panicked and ran, while others tried to sweep up the wounded and drag them to safety. Men raced through the crowd, cradling wounded boys in their arms and searching desperately for an ambulance or medical assistance.

Here we have the IDF firing tank shells into a crowd including women and children. Of course they claimed that there were weapons in the crowd but those are the same claims made against civil rights marchers in the US.

In the US we have the good sense to be ashamed when we kill women and children.

[pelsar]

8. not much of a "massive protest"....

more so she was stopping a military operation....thats usually a losing proposition.

civil massive protest as in ghandi (as per your claim) or martin luther king......as in the locals protesting in the streets in a non violent way.....links?

or was it made up?....or was ghandis call for civil non violent protest somehow modifed?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

10. you confuse the larger political picture with individual tragedy..

when the posters here learn to keep to the facts ("massive non violent posts-still waiting for the links..., genocide, starvation....) and staying away from the hyperbole (israeli arabs a 4thclass citizens), have the ability to actually answer to their claims, then they're might be a change of atmosphere.....

but as long as that continues..not to mention blaming israel for everything from palestinians husbands beating their wives to the fatah/hamas fighting, that doesnt get much sympathy from most israelis on those issues.

anyways i was just wondering where the links are to those massive non violent protests...and if you cant find any, why did you write it (or why do you believe they happen?)

[Violet_Crumble]

13. Links to massive non violent protests?

You've already told Porcupine what yr answer would be and it was: 'but so what?'

[pelsar]

14. waiting for porcupine...

the post was address to him/her....

[Violet_Crumble]

50. You've already said what yr answer would be...

And it was: 'but so what?'

Personally I think anyone reading that and thinking that you were seriously interested in any answer would be quite silly to bother answering you now :)

[Rage for Order]

92. Play chicken with a bulldozer

And you're going to lose

[breakaleg]

93. True. But it happened in the US, the driver would be in jail for muder, not roaming the streets.

[Tom Joad]

16. Why do you think Palestinians must resist Israel? That would presuppose that Israel is doing

something wrong.

Is Israel doing something wrong?

[pelsar]

19. of course...

israel is doing lots of things wrong...poor political decisions, poor military decisions.....and so too are the palestinians...mostly by attempting to do by force what they could do by non violence....

[Tom Joad]

23. Are you involved in non-violent demonstrations then?

[pelsar]

25. nope.....

i'm part of the israeli population that has zero trust in the palestinian culture and population at this point.....I and many like me see the palestinians using the intls to further their goals, with their "pseudo non violence"... goals which include both violent and non violent methods.

the message of "non violence demonstration' if that is the goal of the intls has not taken hold amongst the general palestinian population


When the non violent "massive protests" actually take hold within the palestenians, and we see the palestinians doing the protesting (as we did during intifada I), a change in opinon of mine and many others like me will come about. For that would represent a general change in not just method but of culture within the palestinians...that there are other ways beside violence to make change....and that the celebration of death and the suicide bomber is a thing of the past.

until that time, i wont be joining any "pseudo non violent palestinain/intl protest" ....

[Violet_Crumble]

55. Then don't demand that others protest...

There is nothing to stop you getting involved in non-violent protests against yr own govts policies...

Also, you openly state that you have zero trust in the Palestinian culture and population and that's yr excuse for not protesting. Surely it must occur to you that Palestinians may also have zero trust in the Israeli culture and population, so why are you expecting them to do something that you yrself refuse to do...

[cool user name]

21. Try the first intifada ...

Or many mass demonstrations that were non-violent in the second one.

Oh, but those dasterdly Palestinians are nothing but brutes and deserve to be occupied.

[pelsar]

29. intifada I

rocks and moltov cocktails, burning tires.....was the standard.....guess to some "non violent" means slinging rocks via slingshots, throwing moltov cocktails etc. you should try that in the states sometime at your next protest...and explain to the police how its "non violent"

[cool user name]

39. Not all of it was violent ... the first intifada was mainly non-violent.

Mainly protests and workers' strikes.

Sure in every situation where there is conflict there are violent methods used. I don't dispute that. However, the first Intifada was largly a non-violent affair.

There have been lethal tactics used by the Israeli military to disperse large non-violent protests in the second Intifada as well.

I'm somewhat astonished that you are not aware of this.

[pelsar]

43. not aware of the violence?

I"m very aware of the "non violence" of the intifada I....as i was a participant. If one considers rocks/moltove cocktails etc as non violent than your right.....the tactics used by the IDF in the beginning were lethal as they had no "non violent means"....it took a while for the equipment and training to catch up.

Intifada i was in fact a people uprising...intifada II was a different story with the use of palestinian automatic weapons well planned from the start.

again with the non violent protests?....where? when? I cant recall any articles about it nor do i have any direct memories of such....especially during intifada II

seems to me its no more than some kind of wishful thinking.....

[breakaleg]

24. Pelsar, I see you jumped on one aspect of the post you responded to but ignored the rest.

I'd like to see you respond to the whole thing. I know you wouldn't want to avoid any issues asked to you directly.

For clarity, this is what I was referring to:

they can't leave, they can't trade, they have no water to garden....

and they haven't enough food to go around.

NOW WHICH SET OF ASSHOLES CAUSED ALL THAT?

[pelsar]

26. no problem

cant answer all posts...i skipped that since that was not the original subject matter and it had limited facts.....but since you asked directly, i shall answer directly..and if something is not clear, ask again and i shall answer as best as i can...meaning i shall keep on answering until its clear to you......


they have water...check the acquifer under gaza....they dont have private gardens, its not in the culture. Electricity is limited, last i heard since israel bombed the transformers, though i understand that their using electricity from israel (not from egypt.....)- but i cant confirm where i read it from.

since shalit was taken israel has pressured egypt to restrict the movement between egypt and gaza (i dont know the exact details), Rafah is open in a limited way, until shalit is returned. Egypt has agreed for reasons that are its own. (should be obvious)

Previous to that it was egypts decision and the palestenians seemed to have put no pressure on the egyptians to open up trade via rafah.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/757742.html

seem stories of starvartion seem to be a bit exagerated, with all those photographers we have yet to see a single picture of a starving person.....nor is there a single UN report, that i 've read, that some people arent getting any food.....


_______

the assholes that caused all that are the same shitheads that keep on trying to kill israelis once israel left gaza.....and then crossed the border to take shalit...and are still trying to kill israelis with more rockets.....

and as its well known i dont apologise for the IDF not sitting on its hands while rockets are flown over the border daily in attempts to kill israelis...they might try something different.

[breakaleg]

32. So, it's their fault, not Israel's. Since Israel is the occupying power and they

have a responsibility to those they occupy, doesn't some of the blame lie with them? Essentially they are locked inside an open air prison, and you are expecting the prisoners to fend for themselves with no resources?

What about the millions of dollars in taxes that Israel has collected from the Palestinians on their behalf? Withholding that money is the same as stealing it. It's not rightfully Israel's to begin with. But then stealing things from the Palestinians is nothing new there.

Your explanation is the same as saying that the person responsible for the shooting is not the person who pulled the trigger, it's the victim for daring to provoke him. That is the typical Israeli defense / excuse for everything. I can only assume it goes over really well in Israel. But it doesn't fly outside your borders.

And if what you say is true, then why are human rights organizations reporting disastrous conditions in Gaza? Don't tell me, they are all wrong and are just biased against Israel?

[pelsar]

33. yes the palestinians have a lot of responsability....

Isael left gaza...its that simple.

they have water

they had access to the world via egypt

israel have since given the PA their money
________________

its a typical israeli defense because that is precisly what it is......i have no idea why when israel left gaza they didnt start working on improving their lives. Perhaps they didnt get 100% of what they wanted (access via israel) but tough shit, thats how life is, we all dont get what we want, we're taught, at least in israel, to make the best of what we've got and go from there.

actually it does "fly" beyond our borders. Including egypt and saudi arabia and jordan....they too understand the failure of the palestinians to do something about gaza, why do you think Egypt keeps their border closed to them?

and the disasterous conditions...ever see any pictures?...i have and i dont see the "disaster" that is used in other parts of the world
_____

perhaps you can tell me...why did the palestinains burn down the greenhouses, not build new housing and continued to shoot rockets over the border to israeli cities, including ashkelon?

[breakaleg]

34. It seems that

we can't find one bit of common ground on this issue. Not a single area in which we agree.

Israel controls the airspace, water access and ALL borders leading out of Gaza. They even control the population movement between Palestinians wanting to reunite with their families in the West Bank.

If you can't see this, then this is futile.

[pelsar]

35. so explain...as best you can....

for this is a typical israeli question.

why didnt the palestinians take advantage of israel leaving gaza? because thats the key to the future....

[breakaleg]

36. Why was the pullout made unilaterally?

I've read that the pullout was meant to delay a formation of a Palestinian state indefinitely and stall any peace process.

Perhaps if Israel had worked with the Palestinians to come up with a deal, then they could have had things in place to prevent what happened. I think there is enough blame to go around to both sides on this one.

Nice change of topic.

[pelsar]

37. no change of topic...just curious

if you would like we can go back to the previous one...i was just curious about your opinion...you can ask me anything about the conflict and i wont "flinch" or avoid it...

so if you have the same integrety i will ask again (and will answer yours after)

why do you think the palestinains didnt take advantage of israel leaving gaza and start working on improving their own society?

what "things in place" were missing?...the actual coordination of forces during the pullout was worked out before hand to prevent any misunderstandings.
___

and in case it comes up again as it does for some reason or another every so often.....if i dont answer your question sufficiently, just clarify and ask again. If you think i'm avoiding it, mention that and i will understand that i didnt answer the point you were after.

if you think i've changed the topic for some nefarious reason mention it, and tell me what part i didnt answer, and i'll do my best to answer it.

heres what i think is a brilliant explanation of why only unilateral actions will work:
http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=818
This research suggests that disputants may sometimes find it easier to make a particular concession unilaterally, on the grounds that it serves their self-interest, than to make the same concession in the context of bilateral negotiation.

[breakaleg]

45. The link you gave....

The basis of that article is that unilateral actions are based on each side's self-interest.


"While need for trust, and the problem of building it, merits detailed consideration, we shall only emphasize here that trust is built when both parties articulate visions of the future that includes a place for the other that they judge to be minimally “bearable.” In all likelihood, this place will be less than what they sought, and it will, almost certainly, offer less than what they feel is their just due."


So, Israel, is prepared to offer the minimum, basically what they no longer want. Israel is basically saying that we aren't going to give you what you want, or what you deserve or what is rightfully yours. Or even something close to that. We are going to give you what we've decided we can live without and we don't care how you like it. We are wiping our hands clean after this.


Is it any wonder these unilateral decisions aren't well received? With these kinds of actions, is it any wonder Gaza failed?

[pelsar]

46. its the taba agreement.....

the article was written by a palestenian and israeli.....and if you read the beginning its based on the taba agreement. They're proposing a way to implement it.

This paper will explore how to create the set of relationships that would allow a viable independent Palestine living in peace with Israel to emerge


at any rate... i noticed that you skipped over my questions about gaza..

why do you think the palestinains didnt take advantage of israel leaving gaza and start working on improving their own society?

what "things in place" were missing?...the actual coordination of forces during the pullout was worked out before hand to prevent any misunderstandings.

[breakaleg]

47. don't think so.

I've typed about 20 responses and deleted them all. There wasn't (and isn't) a single strong government in Gaza to quell the factional violence, among other things. I think Gaza was doomed to fail and Israel knew that going in. They didn't care what happened to Gaza after they left and that's why the withdrawal was handled the way it was. I think that Israel, in some naive way, expected the Palestinians to be thankful, even as they aggressively expanded the settlements in other areas of the occupied territories.

Israel's attitude towards the Palestinians and the occupied territories has more to do with this conflict that Israel is willing to admit. The "facts on the ground" say a lot more about Israel's true intentions than any statements they make.


This shows little knowledge of human nature. I have no dog in this fight and I am outraged at the treatment of Palestinians. I can imagine how I might feel if I lived in Gaza and and watched Israel pull out for it's own reasons, and then expected me to be thankful. I think a few parting shots were to be expected.

[pelsar]

48. so israel shouldnt have pulled out?

let met get this straight...if there is no strong central govt to quell the factional violence than the PA soceity is going to fail.... in that case we are in agreement, which is why i'm against any pullout of from the westbank presently.

but where does that put you?

they and so many others said israel has to leave...so israel left.....no infrastructure was destroyed, no wells poisened, greenhouses left intact, access to egypt was worked out?..They had all they needed to get something positive going

you seem be pissed that israel left without insuring a strong PA govt....that is something israel cant/shouldnt get involved with. At somepoint what the palestinians do is up to them, israels attitude, beliefs expectations (you mentioned it over 5x in your post) has nothing to do with it.

btw, for those of us on the Israeli left, who were for the withdrawl....we definitly doubted whether the palestinians could/would make a go of it, but we had our own reasons. It clarifed the situation. It made it clear for all involved whats to be expected from israel, the idf, the settlers, the palestians and their military groups.

the score card?
israel govt rules israel, the IDF has control of its religious soldiers, the settlers are the minority

the PA is weak, it doesnt control its militants of any strand, Hamas doesnt either, their society in its present state is very weak and dangerous
____________

and your for a pullout from the westbank now?...how does that figure with the present PA/Hamas govt (though we have to wait to see if they're agreements can play out on the street)

and i do have a "dog" in this fight...and it involves my son..i'd rather not have him be in hebron, be in bethlahem etc...but nor do i want to be spending time in our bomb shelter because kassams are flying in from jenin.

[breakaleg]

51. No.

I'm saying you can't expect to see a fully functioning government overnight. And you can't expect it given that a large part of Palestinians society in Gaza is still controlled by Israel.

Yes, I do want a pullout of the West Bank and I'd like to see all settlements gone. Period. After that, it will be up to the Palestinians to make their way. You can't tie them down, limit their freedoms and choices and expect them to come out on top.

Look at the result of all of the meddling outsiders have had on Palestinians today? Many countries support one side or another and they fund them, help them and all it creates is a mess. The US is also guilty of this, not just other countries in the middle east. Right now the US is funding the PA - is that helping?

[pelsar]

78. so the the aftermath is irrelevant to you?

this i'm beginning to understand from many here: what comes after the deoccupation" is none of anybodys business except for the palestinians....

did i get that right?

meaning first we go back to 67 and basically what the palestinians do or dont do is none of our business.....

to make it more detailed:
if they turn in to a version of sudan, iran, taliban, or Belgium we just stay out of it....

[breakaleg]

80. Who are you (or any of us) to tell another group of people how to live?

That's such a US mentality - we know better. It's arrogance, pure and simple.

Would I like for everyone everywhere to enjoy some of the same privileges and freedoms I do? Sure. Do I want it so badly that I'm prepared to drive it down their throats until they choke? Hell no. Change doesn't come overnight. When it does come, the kind of change we are talking about, it often comes at a huge price. Who am I to say to a group of people that they should make that sacrifice whether they want to or not?

Do you not see the arrogance of that kind of thinking? It's why the US is hated in many parts of the world.

As for Israel, they should NEVER have built those settlements. They wanted to create "facts on the ground". They wanted to make settlements permanent so there would be no going back. I don't have an ounce of sympathy for those people living on stolen that land.

Israel made their bed, and now they will have to lie in it.

[pelsar]

81. because its a matter of life and death...ours

its not arrogance...your "change doesnt come over night"...guarantees nothing......a failed palestinian state means missiles on our cities..a Hisballa version means constant attacks.

a pre67 egyptian style one with "arab nationalism" means full war


your saying "its none of our business"...so when does it?..when the first missiles fly over...or the 100th?....or are supposed to just accept them.

i do believe you've made yourself clear as to that "we should stay out"...now the question comes: do we have the right to defend ourselves at all?

[Violet_Crumble]

86. It's also a matter of life and death for the Palestinians, pelsar...

You keep on ignoring that...

[pelsar]

87. i just have a preference ....as do you.

...you stated that you prefer that israelis take the chance of being killed as opposed to palestenians....given a choice.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x164640#165096

the question:
helicopter pilot sees the "newer more accurate kassams about to be launched from an open field, children are also playing in that field and MAY get hurt if he launches a missile. The launched kassam MAY land on a school, as they have in the past.


(violets response).... If I were someone in the position of giving the order, the multiple MAYs in that scenario would have me not giving the order to fire...
___________________

thats fine...you stated your preference:

you prefer the kassams to be launched and land where they may (schools/houses, fields) and if they kill/wound israelis as opposed to them being stopped..... thats obviously your preference

i simply prefer the opposite

[Violet_Crumble]

90. I prefer neither Israelis nor Palestinians be killed...

That's my statement, and I'd prefer it if you stick to what I actually state rather than trying to interpret things I've said in unrelated threads and then claiming I stated something I didn't say at all...

[pelsar]

91. so do i...but that doesnt change the situation does it?

the choices are not "win win".....

if what you wrote above is wrong...or if i didnt interpret the consequence of not stopping a kasssam is wrong then i'm more than willing to listen....(read)

[pelsar]

96. and it was just getting interesting...

getting down to the "nitty gritty"..your stance is clear as far as i understand:

what the palestinians do is none of our business....even if it involves killing us/ new war.....at least that would be a potential consequence of just "packing up and leaving"...as we seemed to have agreed to.

[Tom Joad]

17. Apache Helicopter gunships have been used on Palestinian protests,

with the result of many Palestinians being killed, even when no Israelis were threatened.

The IDF does not stop with Rubber Bullets.

[pelsar]

20. "massive non violence demonstrations

i believe that was the contention....i asked and have still not received information about them.....perhaps you can link me up to a few images? articles?...assuming that you also believe such demonstrations have happened in the past.....

[cool user name]

22. Here you go ...

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/nonviolent.html

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/1412

http://www.shalomctr.org/node/760

[pelsar]

28. you've got to be kidding?

thats it?...thats your list of "massive non violent protest?....3 links?.......i guess the word "massive" has different meanings....

your first link.....
the friday protests at Bil’in...thats it?
here were some injuries and numerous arrests, and one soldier lost an eye from a rock ...non violent?
______________

At a rally in East Jerusalem on Friday, Gandhi led thousands of Palestinians, including Prime Minister Ahmed Qurei, and a handful of Israeli peace campaigners on a march in opposition to the wall being built across the West Bank

thats the "massive" non violent movement, at least its a start....
______________
third link December 31, 2004
a successful protest with no violence and no injuries....congratulations you found one ...2 years ago

[cool user name]

38. I provided a few links to start you on your way ...

Perhaps, you are the one kidding, no?

[pelsar]

41. 3 links...one was to a violent demonstration

one was referred to the violent demonstrations every friday at be'lin
the other two were demonstrations that were years ago and were hardly "massive"...the contention was that there were massive non violent demonstrations....your "starting point is nothing more than a non starter.

or do you also contend that there are massive non violent demonstrations happening? that cant seem to be found?

[Violet_Crumble]

56. About Bil'in: Judge: Troops at fence protest were more violent than protesters

A military judge wrote Saturday that soldiers trying to disperse protesters against the separation fence in the West Bank village of Bil'in used more violence than the demonstrators.

<snip>

The prosecution claimed Borant had attacked a soldier who asked him to move away. Defense attorney Gabi Lasky showed the court a video that convinced the judge that the charges were false and that the soldiers had used violence, not the demonstrators.

"The video ... shows the soldiers used more violence than the demonstrators," the judge concluded, releasing Borant under restriction. "The video is no credit to the defense forces. Even though they see the cameras, the soldiers do not restrain themselves from displaying the ugly face they adopt toward people at a democratic protest."

"Every time we've provided videos, the judges released the Palestinians charged with attacking soldiers," Lasky said.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/824104.html

[Shaktimaan]

77. what does the word "more" mean to you?

Have you ever heard anyone praise Ghandi's protests as "less" violent?

I am not defending anyone's actions here, I have no idea what happened at the protest. But a sole report of demonstrators exhibiting "less" violence is not really supporting the assertion Porc made.

It also looks like this instance is more about an out-of-line soldier(s) throwing some weight around than it is about "real" violence of the nature Porc described, ie: peaceful demonstrators regularly getting shot with rubber bullets and water cannons, etc. I mean, I saw treatment like what was described here during the RNC convention in NYC. Not that that makes it in any way acceptable. But for all the hoopla over this I have yet to see anything that comes close to rivaling some of NYC's standout police abuse examples. So we aren't exactly talking about Tieneman Square here.

[Violet_Crumble]

84. What does this sentence mean to you?

"Defense attorney Gabi Lasky showed the court a video that convinced the judge that the charges were false and that the soldiers had used violence, not the demonstrators."

Maybe it'd help to read the entire article rather than just the title of it :)

btw, what's a Porc?

[Shaktimaan]

94. fair enough.

I was going by the judge's quoted conclusion, not the title. The meat of the article is a little contradictory though. We don't know if there was any violence from SOME of the protestors, as the judge's statement seems to imply, or if the line "the soldiers used violence, not the demonstrators" applies to all of the demonstrators present or just refers to the ones on trial.

Regardless, we still aren't talking about violence that rises above the level that we often see in any western country. Yes, unwarranted violence from cops/troops against protesters is bad. But everyday sort of harrassment does happen everywhere and is not the kind of stuff that porcupine was talking about. It is fine to critique this stuff. And we should. But it is not an example of Israel systematically quashing all forms of peaceful dissent leaving no one any resistance options other than terrorism, which is what Porcupine seemed to be saying.

Porc is short for porcupine.

[Shaktimaan]

72. not trying to be nit picking here, really.

But there were two parts to Porc's statement and I think they're both worth looking at. The first one was the belief that massive "Ghandi-style" non-violent protests were happening. While the Palestinian's and Israeli's struggle has been conspicuously marred by a commitment to an unending policy of panoptic violence which overshadows the less dramatic non-violent peace movement, the fact is that such movements do exist, on both sides, and have for a long time. A key difference between the I/P related attempts at non-violent action and India's is evident in the differences between Ghandi himself and Arafat. Or Sharon if you prefer. Or Nasrallah and Rafool. Assad and Bibi. Take your pick. Ghandi has left the mutherfucking building in a big way. There has never been a leader there who chose the rare and risky route of MLK or Ghandi and there likely never will be.

In Israel's case, non-violent protest against their main concern, terrorism and belligerent neighbors, would be unwise. Shame does not work against people who genuinely hate you and wish you dead. And in Palestine's defense, while Israel is susceptible to shame they differ from the British in that they have no real incentive or intent to share land that they view as strictly theirs by right. For example, try and picture the effects of a non-stop, non-violent protest for a return to the UN designed border plan from '48. Forget it. There's no England for the Israelis to return to, no Raj to dismantle. Everyone's already home or fighting to go back to their home. Legit homes all. If Ghandi had non-violently demanded that Australia be ceded to the Aborigines instead of India to the Indians he may have had less luck. It is no accident that only hawks have been able to negotiate real peace deals in this environment.

The second thing Porc stated was that the non-violent protests that DID occur were met with undeserved violence from the IDF, implying that non-violent demonstration, though preferred by the Palestinians, was forced off the table by the IDF. So, we aren't just looking for examples of non-violent action from Palestine's side but specifically non-violent protests that were met with undeserved brutality by the IDF. Also, to be fair to Ghandi, he was met with far worse than water cannons and rubber bullets yet held firm to his pacifist ideals. Martin Luther King too. I am not blaming the Palestinians for not attaining this high standard but maybe we should hold off on calling rallys where people are losing eyes "Ghandi-style."

It is also worth mentioning that even Ghandi was unable to halt the violence that occurred during Partition, a continent-wide massacre that makes the last intifada look like a varsity wrestling competition. By the way, those are the stakes. Just because peace hasn't been achieved and justice hasn't been meted out fairly doesn't mean we've failed. Partition is what failure looks like. If you judge this conflict solely against an ideal that you've arrived at alone you'll get a distorted picture. Judged against other historical conflicts of this nature, even current ones, and you'll be hard pressed to find one where a party has acted with the amount of restraint as Israel has. I am not saying that Israel always acts with minimum force, don't get me wrong. But if you compare Ghandi's India with the Israel/Palestine story in terms of refugee numbers, hardship, deaths, disease, human rights violations, you name it... Israel beats it on every level.

I would love to know if there really was a Ghandi-style protest met with IDF violence for no reason. Who knows, there have been a lot of protests.

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Could you point out where that bit was in the article?

'Fatma Shaheen, a third grade Arabic teacher:

teaches her students to blame "someone else" for their troubles.....i would be very pissed if the teachers of my kids had that atitude. So would most parents that want their kids to "get ahead" in life.'

I reread the article several times and saw nothing that said that's what she teaches her students. In fact, I pointed out to you in the post you replied to that she voiced her personal opinion in the article, and that teachers personal opinions aren't school curriculum. Why did you ignore that and just continue with the same nonsense?


and yes i blame the palestinians 100% for putting all the blame for their troubles on israel...its an attitude that guarantees failure.

That's not quite it, pelsar. I was referring to the way you blame the Palestinians for everything on just about every issue to do with the I/P conflict, and how you can never accept that Israel has any responsibility when it comes to anything....


(its a UN sponsored school...i believe that makes them partially responsable for what is being taught)

Then maybe you should try to be a bit more objective and try to learn what is in the schools curriculum...

[pelsar]

15. I made an assumption based on:

that the teachers personal opinion. and that which is "on the street" (as she put it) + the article from the hamas spokesman + articles blaming israel for palestinian wife beating, the claims of "genocide and starvation" in gaza leads me to understand that "blaming israel" for their problems seems to be the standard.

in fact the sole article by the hamas spokesman stands out because its says "its not israels fault".. i look for those articles as to me they are signs of change. When there is a lively discourse on the various factors for the blame (closure, kassams, politics) i'm sure I'll see healthy change in everyones physical and mental well being as well.

(the hebrew papers have additional interviews as does israeli TV for further info)

we all make certain assumptions based on limited info...some can be checked easily (non violent massive protests) somre are more difficult (what a specific teacher teaches in a specific school...and i believe you do it too, when it comes to the settlers...)

as far a blaming the palestinains and not israel...we dont really get that far, in the I/P forum For the most part i find myself correcting or asking for more info on some claim (israel needs the westbank to steal water, there are massive non violent protests etc). I definitly blame the palestinians in gaza for screwing up an incredible chance, (as per the hamas spokesman )as well as, Abdel Shafi, UN official

"Palestinians should have used the opportunity, at least . . . to prove to the whole world that they can make something out of it."

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/10/22/life_in_gaza_steadily_worsens/?page=2


the westbank is a different affair....but i admit i have trouble discussing the problem with anyone who cant discuss not only the various options but the various possible scenarios that may or may not happen out of those options. not to mention making claims that cant even be backed up with some basic facts or even assumptions based on the history.

for those who believe there is but a single answer that is guaranteed to work, well its like arguing about god with a fundamentalist....not a whole lot to talke about is there?

[Violet_Crumble]

52. No, you made a false claim...

I think everyone realises that teachers do have personal opinions, and a teachers personal opinion stated in an article is not the curriculum of schools, which is what you were claiming....

The difference between yr attitudes and mine is that while I have no time for black and white attitudes where either Israel is entirely blamed, or the Palestinians are entirely blamed, you complain about Palestinians blaming Israel while you entirely blame the Palestinians yrself. Which ends up coming across as not wanting to see any sort of balanced criticism of both sides, but wanting to see the Palestinians blame the Palestinians for everything...

The article you posted a link to actually places blame quite rightly on both sides for actions that have made conditions in Gaza intolerable. From the article:

'Israel cut off more than $50 million in taxes it collects each month for Palestinians. The United States, Europe, and other countries cut off tens of millions more in aid to the Palestinian Authority.'

'But Gaza is still encircled by a fence Israel built during the bloody Palestinian uprising that began in 2001. Israel controls the crossing points between Gaza and Israel, and can force the closure of the single crossing into Egypt.

So economic progress for Gaza after Israel's departure depended on Israel's cooperation.'

and

'An agreement hammered out by US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice last November to ensure the movement of goods and workers is widely seen as a failure. It called for the main freight terminal to allow 150 truckloads a day from Gaza into Israel by December 2005, and 400 a day by the end of this year.

Instead, exports averaged 56 trucks a day last December, and from March to September the average hovered around 20 trucks a day, according to PalTrade, an organization that promotes investment in Palestinian areas.'

Yet you maintain that blame lies solely with the Palestinians...

I've seen one or two other 'supporters' of Israel make the same argument as you that you haven't got time to criticise Israel because yr so busy 'defending' Israel. It was clumsy bullshit when they trotted it out, and it's clumsy bullshit now. There is nothing stopping anyone in this forum from stating their views, and those views aren't dependent on what anyone else posts. If people are sitting here blaming the Palestinians 110% for everything, it's because that's what their views are...

[pelsar]

79. and you just made the same claim....

I think everyone realises that teachers do have personal opinions, and a teachers personal opinion stated in an article is not the curriculum of schools, which is what you were claiming....

2 points....how do you know what the curriculum of the school is?..you just made a claim that that you know what its not

any experience with the palestinian culture in gaza?

[Violet_Crumble]

83. No I didn't. You claimed the article was stating school curriculum..

When in fact it was one teachers personal opinion and the article never said anything about their opinion being part of school curriculum...

WTF does anyone's experience with Palestinian culture in Gaza have to do with anything? All it takes to see that you were wrong is to read the article I posted...

[oberliner]

3. mis-statement in the article

From the article:

"Most of Gaza's residents are registered refugees who fled their homes in what is now Israel in 1947 and 1948."

So that would make the average age in Gaza, what, about 80?

No one's going to accuse Jon Elmer of being unbiased, that's for sure.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Got any more nitpicking handy?

Or would you like to actually discuss the OP?

btw, how does that one statement make Jon Elmer biased? Of course just about everyone has a bias one way or the other, so I'm wondering why you feel the need to point out one slight mist-statement and use that as a foundation to go on about someone's bias..

[oberliner]

27. Wording makes a difference

As someone who has followed this conflict closely, I am sure you would agree that partisans choose their written words quite deliberately in order to influence their readers to see the situation through their particular lens.

Terrorist/militant, kidnapped/captured, barrier/wall, and on and on.

I don't think it is nitpicking to draw attention to such distinctions especially when they convey information that is, in my opinion, inaccurate.

Obviously, most of Gaza's residents are not people who left what is now Israel in 1947/1948, but rather are the descendants of those people. The difference is not insignificant.

My comment regarding Jon Elmer's bias does not come from that one statement but rather from other pieces I have read by him over the years.

As to the OP, it's terrible that the factional violence has resulting in the closing of schools. Hopefully the most recent truce will lead to their being re-opened again.

What are your thoughts on the article?

[Violet_Crumble]

53. Sometimes it does, in this case it didn't...

If most Gazans weren't refugees, then I wouldn't consider it to be nitpicking to point out they weren't. But it is nitpicking when it's because a writer didn't add 'descendents of' to a sentence. As you pointed out, most people are aware that the original refugees would be in their 80's...

What is this bias that you think the author of the article has?

My thoughts on the article and the reason I posted it was that it's tragic that children are so badly affected by all this violence. Between the factional violence and Israel continuing to freeze Palestinian funds and teachers being unpaid, things look really bleak for children in Gaza getting any sort of education....

[oberliner]

73. I'll concede the point

Fine, it's nitpicking. I just think it's strange how the definition of refugee is different for Palestinians than for any other refugee population.

I think the author is excessively critical of Israel in ways that are sometimes unwarranted.

I share your thoughts on the article. Things do indeed look bleak for children in Gaza.

[Tom Joad]

18. Because Israel never allowed Palestinian refugees to return to their homes,

their children and grandchildren are also refugees. They are all registered refugees by the United Nations.

The Israeli regime should follow international law, and it should have started a long time ago.
Can't just get out of it by waiting for people to die.

[oberliner]

30. The Palestinian exception

Palestinian refugees are the only refugee population that has been defined by the international community as including not only the refugees themselves but also the descendants of those refugees.

There are many other refugee groups who were not allowed to return to their homes.

Both the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority should follow international law.

[ZacharyG]

31. May I ask why

The children and grandchildren of refugees are considered refugees themselves?

[cool user name]

40. May I ask why Diaspora Jews have a right to "return" though many don't have any ties to the land?

And some biblical authority is used as justification?

[ZacharyG]

42. Ask whatever you want

But, it isn't an answer to my question.

[Violet_Crumble]

57. I see someone else has answered yr question, so how about answering the question you got asked?

[ZacharyG]

60. Nobody answered my question

A poster gave me a UN definition of what a Palestinian refugee is.

My question was why are Palestinian refugees' children and grandchildren considered refugees themselves.

As to Israel's "right of return" law, I don't see a problem with a sovereign nation formulating their own immigration policy.

[Violet_Crumble]

61. The definition is the answer...

If you want a more detailed answer that'd be: 'I don't see a problem with the UN formulating a definition of who is a refugee'

As to Israel's "right of return" law, I don't see a problem with a sovereign nation formulating their own immigration policy.

You weren't asked if you had a problem with it or not. You were asked *why*...

I take it that as you don't see a problem with a sovereign nation formulating their own immigration policy, that also applies to countries that might formulate immigration policies that discriminate against Jews?

[ZacharyG]

62. I never said I agree with Israel's immigration policy

I said I don't have a problem with them formulating their own policy as a soveriegn nation.

Likewise, I would have no problem with other sovereign nations making their immigration policies. But, that doesn't mean I would agree or support it.

And still nobody has answered my question on why children and grandchildren of real Palestinian refugees are considered refugees themselves.

[Violet_Crumble]

65. I never said you did agree, but now I'm going to ask you if you do agree with it...

You were answered here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=166413&mesg_id=166506

If you need it spelt out in even greater detail, then the answer is because Israel has never allowed the original refugees to return, so their descendants are refugees as well...

[Phx_Dem]

68. Link

http://www.azure.org.il/download/magazine/1250az22_Kushner.pdf

[Violet_Crumble]

71. Did you bother reading that?

And are you aware that Arlene Kushler is incredibly biased, so much so that she opposed the Disengagement Plan? If yr going to try to answer a question, producing something that's a bit objective would be a better idea...

From Arlene: 'By operating outside the norms accepted by the international community, UNRWA has succeeded in perpetuating a growing refugee problem.'

Uh-huh. I've got to wonder what her idea of being accepted by the international community is, seeing as how UNRWA's mandate is renewed repeatedly by that same international community...

btw, on the UNRWA site there's a section that addresses criticism of UNRWA...



ALLEGATION: "UNRWA could be replaced by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees."

FACT: UNRWA and the UNHCR are both UN agencies mandated by the international community to do specific jobs for refugee populations. UNRWA deals specifically with Palestine refugees and their unique political situation. One reason for the distinction is that in the main the UNHCR is mandated to offer refugees three options, namely local integration and resettlement in third countries or return to their home country – options which must be accepted voluntarily by refugees under UNHCR’s care. These are not feasible for Palestine refugees as the first two options are unacceptable to the refugees and their host countries and the third is rejected by Israel. Given this context, the international community, through the General Assembly of the United Nations, requires UNRWA to continue to provide humanitarian assistance pending a political solution.

ALLEGATION: "UNRWA perpetuates rather than solves the Palestine refugee problem."

FACT: It has long been recognised that a solution to the Palestine refugee problem requires a political settlement among the parties involved. UNRWA was established to cater to the humanitarian needs of the refugees pending such a political settlement. Removing UNRWA from the scene would not cause the refugee issue to disappear, but it would lead to untold suffering and hardship. The UN resolution that established the Agency clearly recognised the need for humanitarian relief to Palestine refugees both to prevent "conditions of starvation and distress" and to "further conditions of peace and stability". Removing that humanitarian relief could only do further damage to the stability of the region.

FACT: UNRWA has always looked forward to a time when the relevant political parties would bring about a situation where there would be no more need for the Agency. Following the signing of the Oslo Accords, and the emergence of hope that a solution was in sight, the Agency began preparing itself for the eventual hand-over of its services to the Palestinian Authority and the other host governments. The Agency wanted to be ready for the possibility that there would be a just and lasting settlement of the refugee problem. Unfortunately however, the peace process has faltered and all relevant parties to the conflict have stressed the need for UNRWA to continue its services.



oh, and here's another one some of you might be interested in:

ALLEGATION: "The Government of Israel does not support UNRWA"

FACT: Israel has consistently supported the work of UNRWA over the decades and the Agency depends on close co-operation with the Israeli authorities to carry out its operations in the territory that came under Israel’s control in 1967. At that time Israel specifically requested UNRWA continue its operations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and entered into an agreement committing it to facilitate the work of the Agency. The Government of Israel has made many statements of support for UNRWA over the years, for example, Israel’s Ambassador to the UN, Yosef Lamdan’s statement to the UN Fourth Committee on 4 November 1999 affirmed: "We see in UNRWA a major force for stability among a significant segment of Palestinian society.’ On 30 October 2000, Israel’s representative to the UN, David Zohar, said: "UNRWA has continued to play an important role…in administering a variety of important services, especially in the fields of health care and education. At this time Israel would like to formally record its appreciation for this good work under the able leadership of Commissioner General P.Hansen."



http://www.un.org/unrwa/allegations/index.html

[Phx_Dem]

74. Of course I read it

it's an excellent analysis, which is why I posted it.

[Violet_Crumble]

76. It's pro-Israeli propaganda...

..which is why you posted it. There's nothing excellent about something that's flawed, and that you couldn't refute the points I raised just confirms that :)

[Phx_Dem]

54. Every country has it's own immigration policy

Israel is no different. Since the citizens of Israel decide about these things, what do you care if they are using "biblical authority"?

[Violet_Crumble]

58. 'What do you care if they are using "biblical authority"?

Well, d'uh. Maybe because DU is a place for progressives and progressives should be opposed to immigration policy that's based on "biblical authority" or discriminatory practices?

[Phx_Dem]

63. Your oversimplifying

I'm not an expert, but as far as I know anyone can petition for Israeli citizenship. ALL countries have discriminatory immigration procedures, wealthy people can generally obtain citizenship right away. I'm not saying that is right but that's the way it is.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. No I'm not...

I explained to you why progressives would be opposed to any immigration policy that relies on "biblical authority" or discrimination against or towards any ethnic/religious group....

[Phx_Dem]

66. Israeli citizenship is given to non-jews all the time

So your implicit assertion that only jews can become citizens of Israel is wrong.

[Violet_Crumble]

67. Go back and read the original question...

There was no such implicit assertion from me because I know what the immigration policy is. The poster asking the question (which still remains unanswered) was asking about a particular part of that immigration policy...

Here's the question as you seem to have forgotten it:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=166413&mesg_id=166498

[Phx_Dem]

69. Israels immigration policy is their business

Personally I think it's great that they recognize the right of every jew to make aliyah. I also think that the Jewish Scriptures represent one of humankind's earliest attempts to codify progressive, liberal values.

[Violet_Crumble]

70. So you keep on saying...

I just find it very hard to believe that you'd say the same thing about the immigration policies of some other countries....

I don't think it's great when any immigration policy shows discrimination towards or against a specific ethnic/religious group, and there's nothing progressive or liberal about any of it...

[breakaleg]

44. It's defined that way by the UN.

"definition of a "Palestinian refugee" is a person whose "normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict," <3> and their descendants, regardless of whether they reside in areas designated as "refugee camps" or in established, permanent communities. <4> The number of Palestinian refugees has grown from 711,000 in 1950 <5> to over four million registered with the UN in 2002."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee

[Porcupine]

49. I believe this thread is pointless. It's a dead issue.

There are some people who will never accept a viable Palestinian state.

If that means the people who live in Gaza and the West Bank are kept in prison conditions and forced into a state of malnutrition by their captors that is OK with them.

Denial of adequate water resources is acceptable. Denial of the right to travel by air or sea is acceptable. Denial of access to medical care or medicines is acceptable. Denial of the right to choose their own leaders is acceptable.

They will never, ever, ever, admit to the racism that is the heart of their policy. We are used to that. In the US we have racists that never, ever admit to racism. They are the ones that excused the lynchings, the bombings of churches the attacks on civil rights marchers. It was always the victims who started the violence they said.

Arguing with racists is futile. You can only defeat them. Hams is right. Negotiation with Israel is futile.

The mods will delete this because too pointed criticism of Israel or Zionism invokes cries of racism by the Zionists. I think I need to post it anyway.

[Violet_Crumble]

59. I'm pretty disgusted with the direction some took in this thread...

I posted the article thinking that people would talk about how the conflict is affecting children, but instead some people seem to think that it's more important to play the Blame Game :(

[Porcupine]

75. Blame never put food on the table. nt.

.

[pelsar]

82. it was those "massive non violent protests...

that was claimed and never seemed to show up in the newspapers or internet

we should take a vote and see who believes that they exist.....i think that would be interesting..anybody game?

[Violet_Crumble]

85. Can't you take this crap to another thread?

I posted this article in the hopes that people would be interested in talking about the shit effects things are having on children in Gaza, not in the hopes that you and others would be more interested in playing The Blame Game...

[pelsar]

88. its not about blaming...

its about keeping as close as possible to the actual events that take place. One cant have a serious discussion if events that never happened are considered to have happened...

so do you believe there were "massive non violent demonstrations".....

[Violet_Crumble]

89. No, every post of yrs in this thread has played the Blame Game...

..and yr still trying to do it....

[pelsar]

95. if you call "blame" asking for the truth/proof...then yes...

i do it a lot (as do you)

let me recap: the accusation that has yet to be proved is that there were:

massive non violent demonstrations.....



i do not know of any, if there are i would have to reconsider my whole stance on the I/P issue. If there arent i would like to know either why it was it put out and why it has not been refuted.

simple question:

do you believe there were "massive non violent demonstrations"....