Noted Arab Citizens Call on Israel to Shed Jewish Identity

[oberliner]

JERUSALEM, Feb. 7 — A group of prominent Israeli Arabs has called on Israel to stop defining itself as a Jewish state and become a “consensual democracy for both Arabs and Jews,” prompting consternation and debate across the country.

Their contention is part of “The Future Vision of the Palestinian Arabs in Israel,” a report published in December under the auspices of the Committee of Arab Mayors in Israel, which represents the country’s 1.3 million Arab citizens, about a fifth of the population. Some 40 well-known academics and activists took part.

They call on the state to recognize Israeli Arab citizens as an indigenous group with collective rights, saying Israel inherently discriminates against non-Jewish citizens in its symbols of state, some core laws, and budget and land allocations.

The authors propose a form of government, “consensual democracy,” akin to the Belgian model for Flemish- and French-speakers, involving proportional representation and power-sharing in a central government and autonomy for the Arab community in areas like education, culture and religious affairs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/08/world/middleeast/08israel.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[bemildred]

1. This should be good ...

:popcorn::popcorn:

[BayCityProgressive]

2. I support every

religious state becoming secular, not just Israel. Hopefully these Arabs mean they want a secular state and not a state controlled by orthodox jews AND shia law Muslims. I wish Palestine and Israel could come together as a unified secular progressive state. That would do more to change the middle east than any bombing of Iraq.

[eallen]

3. The world would be so much better if only "they" would stop.

So true and so futile, for a wide variety of "theys."

:hippie:

[bemildred]

6. Class systems ...

Whether based on race, religion, language, or what have you, have certain common features, one of which is that they tend to provoke hostility in the underclasses. I am not religious, and I consider that all religions that speculate about the internal emotional states of the deity, or that are based on writings supposedly dictated by the deity, are transparent poppycock. I think it would lead to a quieter life for everybody if the law treated everyone the same, but there are a lot of hotheads on both sides that think that sort of thing is just out of the question.

[barb162]

8. I wonder if someone told them to shed their religious identity

they might be somewhat taken aback. There's a "problem" here and that is core beliefs. What if someone tells me to shed my secular or religious identity. One would properly tell that someone to hit the road.

[Tom Joad]

15. It is not about individuals asked to shed identities, it is about not saying the nation is for

all who live there, not just Jews, not just Muslims, not just Christians.

I think we are taken aback by attempts by the Robertsons and Falwells etc to officially describe this as a "Christian nation"? I certainly am.

Yet of course i want people in the US to have the right to live as they are... as Jews, Hindus, buddhists, Muslims, secular, Baptists, Vegans, whatever. It is a nation to be shared by all. Never should we define the nation as for "Christians" or any other particular group.

Nothing in this document says Israeli individuals need to shed their identity.

[ikojo]

4. Still early in the afternoon, which may

explain the lack of responses.

Pass the popcorn please...

:popcorn:

[barb162]

9. butter on mine please

[Lurking Dem]

5. Does anyone know anything about

the Belgian model?

A few Jewish Israeli liberals have welcomed the Future Vision document. Shalom (Shuli) Dichter, co-director of Sikkuy, a Jewish-Arab organization that monitors civic equality in Israel, has hailed the effort as opening a serious dialogue about the terms for genuine Jewish-Arab co-existence though he, too, took issue with the historical narrative adopted by the authors.

Sounds like a place to start.

[barb162]

7. I'd like to see them make a point to Hamas to shed its Islamic

identity or for a group of secular Palestinians to suggest something like that to Hamas.

[IndianaGreen]

10. These are Israeli Arabs, not a bunch of "A-rab terrarists"

Interesting proposal, the Belgian model, something worthy of a debate in a truly democratic society.

[barb162]

11. I am well aware of that as it was in the OP

Tell me where I wrote or suggested something along the lines of "A-rab terrarists"

[calzone]

12. Naught but a smokescreen

Like the false pullback from the settlements and seized territories.
Want real progress on peace? The ball's in Israel's court.
Remove the apartheid wall, pullout of the settlements and stop building new ones, cease hostilities against the Palestinians, stop the assasinations, stop meddling in the democratic process in the surrounding countries, recognize a Palestinian state and issue a right of return, give authentic sovereignty back in the territories, not the superficial appearance of same, treat Israeli-Arabs like human beings instead of 4th class citizens, stop instigating confrontations on the borders, marginalize the zionist fundie nuts, give Pals an oppurtunity to live in something other than a refugee ghetto. That's a start.

I know, stand by for the inevitable "it's THEM! it's not the Israelis, it's the Palestinians fault! The Israeli right are just poor, innocent, victimized, smeared, heroic Davids keeping the barbarians from the gate with slingshots!" ***sigh***

[Shaktimaan]

13. Good to see some folks have the determination to plop their platform down into any discussion.

Regardless of its relevence or likelihood in stimulating real discussion.

But back to the article... I always saw this paradox within Israel as being temporary at best. There's just no way that a modern cosmopolitan state can hold a firm identity linked to a single ethnicity, basing laws on it, forming policy around it, etc. AND be a real, full-fledged democracy. It's tough though. There's more at stake here than religion.

Ultimately this is about giving the same rights and responsibilities to everyone, right? Does that then mean that Arab Israelis have to fight in the IDF? They are allowed to now if they want, but they aren't required to because there's a good chance they'd end up fighting their family members. This is one example of many pitfalls.

But in the long run Israel will have to develop a strong unified national identity that transcends ethnicity or religion. Where people are Israeli first and whatever else second. America does this pretty well.

[calzone]

18. Your points & mine seem to dovetail

And I think both are directly relevant to the underlying issue behind the topic.

A democracy isn't the pinnacle of political systems, IMO.
The Greeks and our founding fathers weren't admirers of direct democracy.
A representative democracy seems a bit better, but it has it's faults too.
I think Israel and the US would do better to adopt the system that Scandinavia and France have. But first the predatory, amoral, militaristic, expansionist, self-serving and exploitative foreign and internal policies that both countries practice, and which threaten world peace more than any silly-ass "terrorist org", must stop.

"But in the long run Israel will have to develop a strong unified national identity that transcends ethnicity or religion. Where people are Israeli first and whatever else second. America does this pretty well."

I get very nervous at any "strong nationalism". I think we need to think of ourselves in terms of a world community, and remember that borders appear only on maps. I've traveled all over the world, and people are pretty much the same everywhere, no matter what the religion, race, or culture. I agree that America does the strong natl identity thing really well, but I don't think it's necessarily a positive thing. I think it's better that countries like Israel and the U.S. develop a stronger sense of social justice and cooperation with other countries that will compete with us for resources and dish out their own supplies of...say...oil. What I'm seeing right now is a kind of lord-of-the-flies mentality.
And as for Israel, as long as people who're in control believe that some burning bush signed over title to a specified stretch of land, babies will die.

[pelsar]

14. just a true believer...

like any religion a true believe is simply one that has a belief irregardless of any facts, history etc....and like all religions each has their own messiah.

for Judaism its the messiah, for islam its the 12 iman...and the for "true believer" on the I/P conflict?...the right of return. All israel has to do is issue the right of return and "peace will follow"....like any religion the consequence of any action is based on a belief...and when it doesn't actually happen, there will always be a reason to continue the faith.

its all the same "cut" of person: settler, hamasnik, hasid, left true believer....just a religion

[Violet_Crumble]

19. What about all the other 'true believers'?

Y'know, the ones like you who cling tenaciously to a cataclysmic view of the I/P conflict where Israel is the Good Guys fighting a battle against Holocaust II The Sequel and every antisemitic comment or action around the world is pounced upon as *proof* that it's coming soon...

From one atheist to another, I'm finding yr misuse of the term religion to take in people who aren't religious to be getting pretty damn offensive, apart from the fact that there's no mythical deity involved and belief in some mythical deity or other is what makes people religious. Disagreeing with yr POV does not make anyone a follower of religion, which is what you seem to think it is...

[pelsar]

20. I dont define religion as having a mythical deity

i define it as having a belief that one cannot fathom the concept failing. It can be an engineer with some brilliant idea to get to the moon or in this case: the right of return will produce peace.

if ones view is that once israel returns the refugees, removes the fence, the roadblocks etc and peace will break out...and dont have the ability to think/conceptualize/plan for , the failure of such actions, then they have a belief that is simaler to be believing in a myth. In normal life, we usually accept that things may go wrong and if not have a plan in place, understand that we may have to think of one.

if the right of return etc, fails, and the returning palestininas riot, or via voting produce a iran/saudi arabia/taliban/sudan/syria/egypt/ style of state as opposed to a working democracy, that would in my eyes be a failure...and since once in place it wont be possible to remove it, one has to consider the possibilites before one gets there.

the true believe in this case, wont be able to....as in the post i commented above.

______________

i dont mind disagreements with me...i just like to see them include the history of the region, the politics, the people involved, their actions as well as their words...and not some

"if only israel/palestenians would do ____________then there would be peace"........if your not a "true believer" you would realize that any action by one party does not guarantee any succeess, it has to be met by positive reaction by the "other side"

more so, if your not a "true believer" you would also understand that having a "back up plan" is also important if your action fails. True believers cannot fathom failure of their ideas and concepts.....just like any religion.



the same goes for the "pro israelis", those with a single belief that a series of steps taken by one side will produce peace has the same status, nothing here is done in a vacuum. As far as the cataclysmic view, no doubt it has to be taken in to account given the history of the jews and israel..it would be foolish if not just stuiped not to, but not at the expense of reason.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Instead of making up yr own definitions, use the common definition...

Because I'm getting pretty sick of you labelling everyone who disagrees with you as being religious...

[geek tragedy]

16. They should head down that path, but it can't

happen right away.

To some degree, the historical experiences of the Jewish people should remain in force in Israel's laws and political system.

But, that discrimination shit has got to go.

[Tom Joad]

17. Better story on the document.

Go here.
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article6381.shtml

The book ONE COUNTRY: A Bold Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse by Ali Abunimah is very good reading, very hopeful.