"West Bank Gays More At Home In Israel...."

[Spinoza]

Ironies abound.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/02/05/MNG5LNUTQG1.DTL

>snip" A 21-year-old university student with serious professional ambitions, Nawal wouldn't dream of performing in his hometown, where homosexuality, as in the rest of the Palestinian territories, is strictly taboo, sometimes violently so. Last year, a group of gay Palestinians visiting East Jerusalem from the United States were threatened and one of them badly beaten after they announced plans to join an Israeli gay pride rally. The Web site of ASWAT, an organization of Palestinian gay women, says Palestinian society "has no mercy for sexual diversity and/or any expression of 'otherness' away from the societal norms and the assigned roles that were formed for women. ... The Palestinian woman has no right to choose an identity other than the one enforced on her by the male figures in her family and surroundings."

So for Nawal and his friends, the only place where they can pursue a full social life is across the border in Israel."<snip

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Meshuga]

2. West Bank gays more at home in Israel

West Bank gays more at home in Israel West Bank gays find social life in Israel
They fear new wall will trap them where their lifestyle is taboo
Matthew Kalman, Chronicle Foreign Service

Monday, February 5, 2007

(02-05) 04:00 PST Ramallah, West Bank -- In the center of town in a cafe named Stars & Bucks, a young Palestinian who likes to be known as the Diva Nawal sips a bright pink milkshake and checks out the early evening crowd.

"I'm not the only gay person here, but I'm the only one who's out," he says, exchanging silent greetings with two young Palestinian men at a nearby table. "They're also gay, but nobody knows, and you shouldn't approach them."

When the tall, slim, delicately featured Nawal dons the blonde wig, makeup and tight skirts that transform him into a drag queen, he's ready for his performance -- at gay clubs in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and Haifa.

A 21-year-old university student with serious professional ambitions, Nawal wouldn't dream of performing in his hometown, where homosexuality, as in the rest of the Palestinian territories, is strictly taboo, sometimes violently so. Last year, a group of gay Palestinians visiting East Jerusalem from the United States were threatened and one of them badly beaten after they announced plans to join an Israeli gay pride rally. The Web site of ASWAT, an organization of Palestinian gay women, says Palestinian society "has no mercy for sexual diversity and/or any expression of 'otherness' away from the societal norms and the assigned roles that were formed for women. ... The Palestinian woman has no right to choose an identity other than the one enforced on her by the male figures in her family and surroundings."

So for Nawal and his friends, the only place where they can pursue a full social life is across the border in Israel.

"I can't be honest about my sexuality with my family because they wouldn't know how to respond, and I respect them too much to want to hurt them," he says. "But the same traditional family values which oppress me in that way also protect me."

...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/02/05/MNG5LNUTQG1.DTL

[Tom Joad]

3. Duplicate.

But we do appreciate that Israel is much more fair.

For example, when it dropped a million cluster bomblets in Lebanon this past summer, it made sure that gays and straights were equal reciepients of this "generosity" from the Israeli military.

It makes sure that people in Gaza suffer hunger, without regard to sexual orientation.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9785

Such "liberals"!

[oberliner]

5. and duplicated and duplicated

The oppression of homosexuals in the Palestinian Authority has been going on for some time.

It's a huge problem that does not get address often.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. ...

Anything positive about Israel or Israeli culture must automatically be shat upon. The fact is that gays are more welcome in Israel than they are in the West Bank or Gaza, and much of the Middle East. However, instead of discussing the issue of sexual diversity, you must denigrate a positive about Israeli society. I would think accepting gays and lesbians would be a positive thing, but I guess not.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leftynyc]

13. sorry, duplicte post

[Solo_in_MD]

4. Israel is the only nation in the middle east that is not rabidly homophobic

Whabbi Islam and the Sharia are more intolerant that any of the wierdest xtain fundies

[Tom Joad]

6. No one is free unless everyone is free.

[pelsar]

10. start at home...

i understand that the native indians got a raw deal....seems to me you've got quite a bit of work to do in your own backyard...

No one is free unless everyone is free. unless of course your think that "they're not oppressed"....driven from their homes, massacred, culture wiped out, etc...transfer, genocide, apartheid..they all fit quite well

and after all: no one is free unless everyone is free.....

[Douglas Carpenter]

11. if American policy stayed in its own back yard things would be quite different

but when support for one side is so profound, American policy becomes America's own back yard.

[Tom Joad]

22. Are you suggesting the US forget supporting Israel and work to create more justice here?

Are you suggesting an end to aid to Israel?

Sounds good to me!

[cali]

90. Tossing out one trite statement after another, that has abolutely zip

to do with the topic of the OP, is not only a poor excuse for commenting in any meaninful way, it is, as always, boring. Surely, you're not really that limited, Tom.

[oberliner]

8. For anyone interested in the rights of Gay Palestinian Women

Check out this website:

http://www.aswatgroup.org/english/

Aswat's women come from different cities and so different backgrounds, whether from Palestine (The Occupied Territories) or Israel, and this is where the name Aswat (voices) comes from.

Since our society has no mercy for sexual diversity and/or any expression of 'otherness' away from the societal norms and the assigned roles that were formed for women, we decided to organize to raise awareness and to provide a safe place for every Palestinian woman who identifies herself as lesbian, bisexual, transsexual, inter-sexual.

The big secret of the Palestinian society is the secret of women’s sexuality. The Palestinian woman has no right to choose an identity other than the one enforced on her by the male figures in her family and surroundings. However, the time has come for women's voices to rise and be heard, and for the society to recognize women's rights to choose and live.

[Douglas Carpenter]

9. frankly I think this is an apples versus oranges argument

A case of cultural-linguistic gap. A case where East is East. And West is West.

Actually Arab and even Islamic community are very tolerant (or intolerant) in an entirely different ways than western tradition. Just as western society is tolerant (or intolerant) in an entirely different ways than the Arab or Islamic world.

Either society could point to shocking examples of the intolerance (or tolerance) of the other, depending on ones perspective.

It is almost impossible to explain this and how this tolerance or intolerance works to someone who has not lived in both societies.

There is a saying that applies not just to sexuality in the Arab world but the whole gamut of almost every aspect of human behavior in much of the East and much of the none Western world in general. This kind of sums it up -- not just sexuality, but human behavior in general -- or at least it comes as close as anyone can possibly come to summing it up. Now admittedly this is a hyperbole: "In the West one can talk about anything they want as long as they don't actually do it. In the East one can do anything they want as long as they don't actually talk about it".

.

[msmcghee]

15. Hardly a case of apples and oranges IMO.

I note on the ASWAT website that they are having a conference next month in Haifa - where apparently they are free to both do what they want and talk about it. I'd say historically, there is a fairly strong correlation between intolerance of differences within a culture - and the tendency for aggression and war with one's neighbors.

The Nazis perhaps exemplified this clustering of male-oriented values (war, violent competition, intolerance, fear of women, homosexuals and weakness, etc.) within the last century. I find such things disgusting in any culture.

[pelsar]

16. the cultures are not equal..

i get the impression that your trying to say that each culture has it pros and cons..and hence they are equal.

in my eyes...not by a long shot. Western culture may have a long ways to go in terms of equality etc but its cornerstone of liberal values does not have an equal anywhere. Cultures that are based in religion dont even compare...they must be made to take a backseat to liberal western societies.

examples of religion based cultures: saudi arabia, iran, taliban (if you want to get in to subsocieties..hebron jews-just to be pc) have little to offer a civil society on a govt level, there is little reason to be tolerent of much of their beliefs as they negate the core values of a liberal western society, which is the superior culture and the one the one that offers the most to all its citizens....no ifs, buts, or anything else that dilutes that basic aspect.

[Douglas Carpenter]

17. I don't believe in the superiority or inferiority of cultures

There is much about the Western world that is enlightened and much that it not so enlightened, much that is tolerant and much that is decidedly intolerant. Same goes for other cultures.

I know it is difficult for many Westerners to understand or accept or acknowledge that non-Western cultures might have qualities worthy of admirations; qualities lacking in Western society including some qualities of tolerance and a kind of earthy liberalism. But that's just how it is.

I cannot imagine anyone accusing Western society of being any more nonviolent or unaggressive than other societies.

[pelsar]

19. I figured as much....

but i do....very much so...western culture is violent...in ways far worse than anything history has shown...but it also shows the greatest promise...cultures based in religion simply dont......they're all based on some sort of gender differentiation based on some "wisdom" none of which affords any kind of advancement toward equality of the sexes, civil rights based on inherent worth etc.....

and i disagree about the tolerence of "other cultures" based on religion i.e. non western. They are tolerent in very limited ways...they tolerate the "other" as long as the "other knows their place. Cross the line and the tolerence quickly evaporates. The western culture, while fighting what may be our nature about the "other" is at least fighting it.

is there a single religious based culture that accepts homosexuals?

[Douglas Carpenter]

21. it's different

Including an acceptance of different sexualities albeit different from Western acceptance which after all is very new to Western society. In the early 60's conservatives in America thought gays should be locked up in prison. While liberal Americans thought gays should be treated more compassionately and locked up in mental hospitals.

Talk to Western gay people who have lived in Arab or other non-Western societies. In fact I cleared my original post above with two different overtly "obvious" Western gay people who had both spent ten plus years in the Middle East; one Australian, one American and they totally concurred.

But departing from the exclusive issue of sexuality, I would dare venture that Arab society and many non-Western societies accept people on human worth in ways that Western society is lacking.

Ever notice Arabs at the beach? There be big ones, short ones, fat ones, skinny ones, exceptionally good looking ones, not so good looking ones, old ones, young ones; a heterogeneous mixture you will not find common is a similar Western gathering.

.

[Phx_Dem]

27. The west recognizes the role of science

Which is why attitudes towards gays changed. Why has this not occurred in ME countries?

[pelsar]

30. you havent been to Tel Aviv's beach

Ever notice Arabs at the beach? There be big ones, short ones, fat ones, skinny ones, exceptionally good looking ones, not so good looking ones, old ones, young ones; a heterogeneous mixture you will not find common is a similar Western gathering.

could be the middle east culture......mixing in....

[msmcghee]

31. There's even a big difference in the US in different . .

. . regions. In California for example everyone seems to feel a need to look buff and trim. Go to the midwest like along Lake Michigan and you might find specific areas where young people gather where "looking good" is in style - but most places have the mix of humanity similar to what you describe in Tel Aviv.

Almost any photo of Coney Island or the beaches around New York / New Jersey you also see that same wonderful mix of humanity.

I think people here are mixing things up. Everyone wants to fit in - by wearing the right clothes, having the right body type etc. And in many cultures there is subtle discrimination against those who don't - especially among the self-conscious young.

That is not the same as when a society officially sanctions and promotes the hatred of specific races, sexual orientations, religions or ethnicities - i.e. identities.

I am constantly surprised at how supposedly liberal persons here seem to take no notice of this officially sanctioned hatred that is part and parcel of Arab culture and government in the region.

[leftynyc]

53. Or beaches in Europe

All the women who choose to go topless - even grandmothers. Nobody bats an eyelash about it. I look at how societies treat their women. It tells me everything I need to know.

[Amused Musings]

36. The composition of beach goers is pretty much

what you described on every beach I have been to: Northern, Southern, Eastern, Western Hemispheres

[pelsar]

43. the beach...

btw...i doubt in the arab culture on the beach, i would find a young couple holding hands...... (lebanon yes....gaza...no...the penalty possibly being death). Comparison of cultures is absurd.....religious based ones have nothing to offer, that a western enlightened one can as well.

and this doesnt pan out:

I would dare venture that Arab society and many non-Western societies accept people on human worth in ways that Western society is lacking....it does only if you fit it....if you dont, your "out". Their tolerance levels are limited to within a very narrow confines.

killings with arab societies shows today shows massive intolerance. Whereas the US civil war reached heights of brother killing brother, I dont believe such massacres could happen today within western societies....within the arab ones, its is happening today....very intolerent. (i wont even touch saudi arabia or iran....prime examples of massive intolerance, but even Egypt a "tolerant"country doesnt even come close to basic western standards.)

there really isnt anything to compare....a society that doesnt have as its cornerstone civil rights, liberal laws for all, is simply a secondary culture that in the long run must be modified or removed....tolerance of an intolerent society is simply wrong.

[Douglas Carpenter]

59. the point was NOT about beaches!!

It was that when observing an Arab group together socializing--there is a heterogeneous mixture that exceeds anything I have seen anywhere else in the world.

But if some people prefer to believe that Arab or other non-Western cultures have no redeeming qualities and that Arabs are an inferior race, they can believe that if they want to.

But I don't see how convincing themselves that and propagating that notion will benefit anyone.

[pelsar]

62. dont confuse race and culture...

there are many cultures that dont stand up to the western ideal...and yes they will have some nice qualities...some nice traditions...but if they dont have the cornerstone of liberal values, of equal worth, of freedom to choose, freedom to disagree, freedom to be equal then they are inferior cultures.


i dont care if they're arab/islam, hassidic jew, soux indian, etc....equality , freedom of speach, etc no matter who or what you are is an essential element of a modern society, those that dont strive for that, should be go the way of the neanderthal.....

[Douglas Carpenter]

63. then let's see all those liberal values apply to everyone who lives under Israeli sovereignty

full equality for the Palestinians within Israel -- a state for all of its citizens -- and full equality for the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories with the Israeli settlers who live there.

Full equality and equal worth for everyone living under Israeli sovereignty sounds like a wonderful idea. And I think most Palestinians would welcome it gladly too.

[pelsar]

64. its the goal...

and its also a cornerstone of the israeli society...equality before the law, getting there is not always so easy.

trouble is im not so sure that most palestinians would welcome it....they might in theory, but i would honestly wonder about it in practice. Voting for hamas does not show much respect for the secular way of life....no matter what the reason was.

[cali]

91. Excuse me?

Make up history much? That crap about liberals in the sixties wanting to lack up gays in mental hospitals, is hogwash of the first order- and every bit as odiferous as such.

[Violet_Crumble]

92. Here's some history for you...

What is a fact is that up to the early or mid 1960's, the attitudes of the US population towards homosexuality was that it was a disease that could be cured and it was on a list of mental diseases on the US through the 1960's:

'Since the 1960s, however, and especially since the Bowers decision in 1986, official and popular attitudes toward homosexuals have changed, though vestiges of old attitudes – such as the law at issue here – remain. Among other changes, the medical profession no longer stigmatizes homosexuality as a disease, prohibitions on employment of homosexuals have given way to antidiscrimination protections, gay characters have become common in movies and on television, 86 percent of Americans support gay rights legislation, and family law has come to recognize gays and lesbians as part of non-traditional families worthy of recognition. These changes have not gone uncontested, but a large majority of Americans have come to oppose discrimination against lesbians and gay men.'

http://hnn.us/articles/1539.html

To claim that liberals in the early 1960's were so enlightened that they as a whole stood against such things as placing homosexuals in mental institutions is ignoring the history of discrimination against homosexuals in the US...

[Tom Joad]

24. In regard to "Western Civilization", i agree with Gandhi...

I think it would be a wonderful idea!

[msmcghee]

25. Personally, I find such tolerance for cultural differences pretty disgusting.

Are you saying that the Third Reich that killed six million Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and other "deviates" is morally equivalent with a secular state like Israel or the US, where discrimination against others based on religion or race is fundamentally against the evolving spirit and body of law in both principle and practice? Or, for a more current example, how about the blatant and violent discrimination that is part and parcel of every ME Arab / Persian state today.

How can you even suggest that there is no difference between such states/cultures?

I will make a guess about this - that could be wrong. I guess it is because such judgements then allow one to see the I/P conflict in terms that relieve Israel's enemies of any moral responibility in their violent 75 year quest to rid the ME of Jews. I will guess that one can then also adopt the position that attacking and killing Isreali civilians (terrorism) - is morally equivalent to Palestinian civilian deaths that occur when Israel defends her citizens from those attacks? I will guess it is also so that culturally driven motive and intent don't have to rear their ugly heads in such discussions.

For those reasons the moral equivalency claim understandably seems to be a theme in many of the anti-Israel posts here. I'd like to see an actual reasoned defense of this view if you (or anyone else here) would honestly engage it head on - rather than have it implied in posts.

I'm asking you because your post actually states the premise directly - which is refreshing - and because you have shown your ability to engage in reasoned debate before.

[Douglas Carpenter]

26. I don't think I said anything to imply an approval of Nazism

And Germany was very much so a Western society. A fundamental theme of Nazism was how they reveled in their Westernism.

My basic point is that Western society is not as liberal and enlightened as it pretends to be. And Arab society is simply not the cartoon caricature of savagery and intolerance than many who have never experienced it in real life imagine it to be. It's just not like that; not at all.

Please, go meet some Arabs. I bet you will like them. And I bet they will like you too. If you give them just half a chance.

[msmcghee]

28. Sorry, I wasn't clear.

You said, "I don't believe in the superiority or inferiority of cultures" That was the title of your post. You then seemed to use differences between western and Arab cultures to make your point.

I took the premise that cultures are all the same - as expressed in your title line - and used Nazi as well as Arab cultures' attitudes towards racism and discrimination as examples. Please don't think I was trying to trick you into saying that Nazis were (are) cool. ;)

I have had Arab friends here in the US at times in my life and they didn't show any overt intolerance. Nor would I expect them to. If they had they wouldn't have been my friend. I try to judge people by their actions and beliefs - not by their ethnicity. I do however, judge cultures by their institutions, laws and punishments and their taboos, the opinions expressed by their leaders and mainstream media, etc. Cultures have far greater power to hurt and kill people than do individuals so I hold cultures to strict standards.

Also, I am not too impressed by your assurances that I would find Arab culture to be tolerant if I experienced it. That would have to occur within some real life context. For example, I am not Jewish but I'm sure you are not suggesting that I would easily make friends in Damascus or Tehran or Jiddah if I was to walk the streets there as an identifiably homosexual Jew. I imagine I'd be lucky to live through the experience. Of course, homosexual Jews even have their own sitcoms here. I suspect these would not be as entertaining to ME Arab / Persian cultures as the Blue Eyes drama series in Iran where Jewish doctors harvest the organs of Palestinian children.

I am not claiming that western societies are perfect - just that there is a vast difference between cultures that are based on separation and difference and hatred of certain other groups of people and that teach their children such hatred as state and state/religious policy - and cultures that attempt to provide civil rights to all its citizens and that try to encourage tolerance through their laws and institutions.

I am not making a case for west vs. east. I am making a case for enlightenment vs. hatred and intolerance. I think one of those is very much better than the other - in whatever culture you find it. Wouldn't you agree?

[Douglas Carpenter]

29. of course I agree that enlightenment is a much better attitude

than hatred and intolerance. I would not claim by any means that Arab society couldn't use more enlightenments; of course. When I think how much the Middle East has advanced in that regard compared to when I first arrived many years ago, I think they have come a long way.

But there are also attitudes in American policy and Israeli policy and all to common among American and Israeli people that are quite intolerant. And as you know that my point of view is that discriminatory policies are at the root of this conflict.

did you notice the last two or three lines of the article referenced in the original post above?

"But she questions the sense of belonging that gay Palestinians like Nawal and Freddy feel in the Israeli gay scene.

"At some level, they face racism and discrimination because they are Palestinians," Maikey said.

"There is a hidden discrimination with Israeli partners -- a feeling that I can make sex with you, but I can't be seen out with you," she said. "

link: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/02/05/MNG5LNUTQG1.DTL
____________________

did you see this recent poll?

link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3350467,00.html

"Recent poll reveals 75 percent of Jewish students believe Arabs uneducated, uncivilized, unclean. Similar stereotypes found amongst Arab students toward Jews, but in lower percentages."

snip:"According to the survey, the Arab youth views the Jewish society with fewer reservations: 27 percent of the Arab students believe Jews are uneducated, while 40 percent say they are uncivilized, and 47 percent believe they are not smart.

link to full article: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3350467,00.html

.

[Douglas Carpenter]

58. self delete

[Andromeda]

51. You got one thing right...

There's a big difference in the traditions of the Western and Arab cultures.

You don't have to live in both societies to know right from wrong. Honor killings are wrong; stoning women who have committed adultery (or even suspected of committing adultery) is wrong; forbidding women to vote, drive or appear in public without a male escort or get an education is wrong.

There was a special on HBO about a sixteen-year old girl who was publicly hanged in Iran because she violated some morality law.

The oppression of women is common in Middle East culture. Hold hands with your boyfriend in public and you might be killed in a brutal way.

Homosexuals aren't treated any better. Sharia law is barbaric, obscene, cruel and inhuman.

I have a difficult time respecting cultures that practive these despicable rituals. It's time they got out of the dark ages and started catching up to the 21st century.

[Violet_Crumble]

55. What about despicable rituals in the US?

Like the barbaric, obscene, cruel and inhuman death penalty? Yet you expect everyone to respect yr culture. What a joke..

[pelsar]

65. thats it?

your comparison of the various violent, intolerant traditions that comprise the arab/islamic society of today in egypt/syria/iran/saudi arabia/iraq/sudan/algeria/gaza comes down to the US having the death penalty in some states.

quite the comparison....when in iran and saudi arabia the death penelty comes in to play for such fragrant violations such as being a homosexual..or worse, drawing cartoons!

[Violet_Crumble]

78. I see. So you only have a problem with barbaric practices when they're Arab ones...

And when the US has any barbaric practices, according to you it's completely different. Talk about sheer hypocricy...

[msmcghee]

68. Yes, societies that honor the rule of law . .

. . based an a constitution that spells out the rights of citizens are better than those that use religious superstition and armed bullies and thugs to enforce rules of social conduct. I realize this statement violates the post-modernists credo but sometimes it is necessary to face reality when dealing with ugly things like real oppression of real humans.

Using "capital punishment" as an example of Western (US) barbarity is meaningless. You are expressing an opinion about a law - something you would not be able to do so freely in a Muslim state BTW. I don't agree with CP but it has been instituted by a governmental system that guarantees that my opinion on it is considered. The same is true of most drug laws which I consider an abomination. The difference is not in the laws that are passed - but in the process and foundation of laws - that's the Constitution and Bill of Rights in the US.

This is something that many on the far left seem to have a problem with. Democracy does not guarantee that life will be fair. No human system that has ever been devised does that. It only provides a process whereby the people being governed have some ability to fine tune things (within constitutional limits) and reduce perceived injustice as time goes by.

It is interesting how some "progressives" can so casually dismiss possibly the greatest advance in human happiness in history (constitutionally based law where the governed get to decide how they will be governed through elections)- just to support some obtuse anti-Israel argument that is farcical on its face.

Gays are not persecuted by the state in Israel and the GOI protects gays from anti-gay bigots as a matter of law and policy.

Gays are persecuted in Muslim states and in Palestine as a matter of common practice - by individuals who are encouraged by the state and who know they will suffer no consequences - and by the state itself. We only get a partial picture of this because these states invariably control their press to avoid bad PR in the west - but the stories of hangings, beatings, stonings, limbs amputated and girls locked in burning schools because they don't have their scarves on - are horrific.

The proof of my first sentence is in the pudding as they say. If you think Sharia is such a fine institution compared to such terrible places like the US where some states still condone capital punishment - then I wonder why "progressive" women (like you perhaps) who believe that Western civilization is so oppressive - are not moving in droves to places like SA or Pakistan where you could enjoy the full benefits of Sharia law.

Of course, we all know that you won't be packing up your burkas anytime soon. Apparently your appreciation of Muslim culture is just a rhetorical device that only applies as far as its usefulness for smearing Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

79. The death penalty is barbaric. Stop making excuses for it...

It would help if some logic and consistency, and above all a better understanding of societies that aren't exactly the same as yr own, was employed...

As for the last two paragraphs of yr post, how on earth do you manage to read my pointing out of a barbaric practice in the US as reading as I think Sharia is a fine institution, that I've got burkas to pack up, or that not slobbering with appreciation by a post by someone intent on showing all Arab societies as barbaric, backwards, and exactly the same as each other is translated as 'smearing Israel'?

[msmcghee]

83. This subthread started when you objected to Andromeda's . .

post pointing out the general cruelty of Islamic society toward women. You then brought up the death penalty as an example of a barbaric US practice. Of course, that was a diversion from the topic as the DP applies to women and men equally - but I went along.

Just to help you out - the topic is the difference between Israeli vs. Arab/Islamic societal treatment of lesbians.

In response to your rather lame argument suggesting that the US is barbaric because of the DP - I asked why western women are not moving to SA or Pakistan in droves to escape the barbarity of western culture. You apparently have no answer for that.

Actually, western societies do treat women (and men) better than Arab/Islamic societies (even with the DP in the US) - which is obvious to anyone with a brain who reads or follows the news in even a cursory way. It's hardly worth arguing over. Yet, because the topic suggested that Israel was doing something good for people (Palestinian lesbians) it has obviously raised the ire of several posters here including you.

So be it. If you really disagree that Islamic societies generally treat lesbians worse than western societies like Israel then I suggest you find a better argument than "Oh yeah, well the US has the DP".

[Violet_Crumble]

85. Andromeda claims not to respect cultures that have barbaric practices...

..and displayed an ignorance of Arab culture in order to make out that some practices are prevalent throughout all Arab cultures. I merely pointed out barbaric practices happen in US society as well, which brought on a bout of strange claims from you about me having a burka etc. And despite yr attempts to 'argue' otherwise, the DP is a barbaric practice...

Instead of repeatedly accusing other posters who object to seeing Arab culture as a whole called backwards of not saying good enough things about Israel to satisfy you, maybe you could explain why yr suddenly so concerned for the plight of gay Palestinians when there seems to be no concern about the fact that if they were in Israel they'd face discrimination just for the fact that they're Palestinian?

[msmcghee]

69. Aside from the rank absurdity of some claims here . .

. . I must admit that a political system that openly allows such malicious and hostile rhetoric against itself - right out in the open and in so many different venues - is its own best argument for showing the value of a society where such liberty and freedom is taken for granted.

It is inevitable that in such a large and free society as ours that some will choose to oppose its current incarnation for whatever reasons - many of them good reasons too - and some will oppose it just because it is in their nature perhaps to oppose whatever a majority see as good.

At the end of the day though - after all the insults and lies have been hurled at it - I am sure that such an open and egalitarian system as ours, imperfect as it is, will still be here - and probably in a slightly improved format. I encourage you to continue making my case.

[Violet_Crumble]

82. What was absurd about claiming the DP is barbaric and obscene?

It is. Why does it matter what form of govt carries out barbaric and obscene practices? There's a lack of logic to yr attempt at reasoning, as 'liberty and freedom' could be used as an excuse to justify every barbaric and obscene practice carried out by the US....

Huh? What case of yrs am I supposed to be making?

[Douglas Carpenter]

57. you don't know anything about Arab culture

The Arab world is a very big place and comes in many different sub-groups and many different perspectives. Why does this argument always come down to racism or of at least claims of intrinsic superiority? But then again that has always been the claim of those who wish to justify the subjugation of others. If all of this is supposed to justify what has been done to the Palestinians and what is being done to the Palestinians every single day...that's a pretty lame excuse. I somehow doubt that gay Palestinians or Palestinian woman support the occupation anymore than the rest.


____________________

did you see this recent poll?

link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3350467,00.ht...

"Recent poll reveals 75 percent of Jewish students believe Arabs uneducated, uncivilized, unclean. Similar stereotypes found amongst Arab students toward Jews, but in lower percentages."

snip:"According to the survey, the Arab youth views the Jewish society with fewer reservations: 27 percent of the Arab students believe Jews are uneducated, while 40 percent say they are uncivilized, and 47 percent believe they are not smart.

link: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3350467,00.html
___________________



International Committee of the Red Cross/Palestinian Territories:

http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/palestine?OpenDocument



http://www.btselem.org/english/About_BTselem/Index.asp

Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions:

http://www.icahd.org/eng

The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/background.asp?menu=3&submenu=3

Physicians for Human Rights - Israel

http://www.phrusa.org/healthrights/phr_israel.html

Amnesty International/Israel and Occupied Territories:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/israel_and_occupied_territories/index.do

Human Rights Watch/Israel and Occupied Territories:

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/israel/

Machsom Watch (Monitors abuse at checkpoints)

http://www.machsomwatch.org/eng/homePageEng.asp?link=homePage&lang=eng

[pelsar]

66. but i do...

and all of the above listed groups dont have parallel groups that can work in such intensity in gaza, because they wouldn't live very long.....

that alone tells the story of the tolerance....

the argument is not one of racism....its one of culture. An arab american is probably just as liberal as hindu american, jewish american...that will not be true of their cousins in israel, or syria.


I somehow doubt that gay Palestinians or Palestinian woman support the occupation anymore than the rest.

i wouldn't bet on that...i would bet some palestinian gays are scared shitless of Hamas getting control....and start sending out their moral squads.

[Andromeda]

77. My post had nothing to do with racism, or which

race is superior to another. Those are your words, not mine. I'll bet Palestinian women don't enjoy being treated like second class citizens by their own government either. They live in fear of their own militia. There is no moral equivalency here.

That's just a fact, not something I pulled out of my hat.

Palestinian women don't have the freedom to do anything they want to. Radical religiosity doesn't permit them to show affection in public without terrible consequences. If an Islamic woman is raped she risks being murdered by her own brothers for "dishonoring" the family. You know this occurs in the territories and in other Arab states.

Some Arab states are more progressive than others but are still oppressive to women by not allowing them to drive, vote or get an education.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Ironies abound?

How, exactly?

[Tom Joad]

18. Israel "democracy" in action. Man can't live with his wife.

Comment: This attempt to whitewash Israel's dismal human rights record with these stories is truly pathetic.

No one is free in the West Bank, in Gaza, because everyone, gay, straight, old, young, Muslim, secular, Christian, live under military occupation.

http://www.amin.org/look/amin/en.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=7&NrArticle=38298&NrIssue=1&NrSection=3

I Want to Keep my Wife!
By: Ghassan Abdullah
Israel has decreed that my wife and I can no longer live together. I am Palestinian and she is Swiss and we have been married for 28 years. She was given two weeks to leave the occupied Palestinian territory. The Israeli Ministry of Interior wrote on her Swiss passport: “LAST PERMIT.” We have been living together in Ramallah for 12 years. We came in 1994, when, after the Oslo Agreement, we were encouraged to move to the West Bank by the prospect of ‘peace’ and development.

My wife Anita speaks Arabic, likes the landscape, cooks Arabic meals, and she cares for my grandfather’s village house, an old stone building and the plants around it more than I do. She votes in Palestinian elections as the spouse of a Palestinian. She is active in serving the local society in Public Health. She has so many friends here and considers it home. She still has her valuable European element and contacts, but she doesn’t want to be separated from this environment or from me, and I certainly do not want to be separated from her. Our children are grown up and work abroad. But they are also not sure they will be allowed to visit us here. On her way to visit us in Ramallah a few months ago, our daughter who has a Swiss passport, was delayed for six hours at Tel Aviv airport and grilled when she landed. She was lucky. Others are deported to where they took off from, often spending a night or more at the notorious detention ‘facility’ at the airport.

For the past 12 years, Anita has managed to stay here by diligently renewing her permit or leaving and coming back every three or six months to comply with the Israeli ‘law’ that applies in the occupied Palestinian territories. She is fighting now to stay here by going to a lawyer and to the Israeli courts, hoping for an injunction to be able to stay until a verdict is reached. She is also in touch with her embassy, and she has joined others in the same predicament in addressing the European Union and the American consulate, and in talking to human rights organizations, both Israeli and Palestinian, and the media.

We don’t know what to do. But we have to do it quickly. What do we do about our shared life, our papers and accounts, the hundreds of little things that we have grown to share? What do we do about the new apartment that we made the ‘mistake’ of purchasing at the wrong time? She was keyed up about what tiles to choose and how to model the kitchen. We can’t believe, or accept, that we are going to be separated. We believe it though, when we are reminded by other ‘mixed’ couples or families who have, and are being, separated around us. (more)

[breakaleg]

20. This kind of action by Israel is more telling than any statements or claims they make.

[Tom Joad]

23. Yes, indeed it is.

[calzone]

32. Israel is not a beacon of tolerance

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2006/08/29/jewsagainstgays.shtml

In reality, violent opposition to gays and anti-gay activism is much stronger and prevalent in Israel than the in the U.S., which isn't exactly a leader in tolerance among the world community.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/oct/06102002.html

"Ultra-Orthodox Jews threatened violence. (At least one rabbi promised bloodshed). The mayor of Jerusalem, an Orthodox Jew, tried to keep police permits from marchers and assemblers in the city. (The one significant concession to the broader security situation was the cancellation of the parade that usually headlines the festival.)

This is, in fact, World Pride Jerusalem’s second chance. Originally slated to be held last summer, it was canceled due to the security situation surrounding the Gaza disengagement, but not before it helped usher in a season of explicit anti-gay sentiment in Israel. A violent attack accompanied Jerusalem’s own gay pride parade that summer, a far smaller affair that draws only a fraction of the many thousands expected for World Pride. Midway through the parade, a marcher was set upon by a knife-wielding, ultra-Orthodox Jewish man."

http://www.glbtjews.org/article.php3?id_article=232

"The Deputy Mayor and money man Eli Simchaioff, a strict Orthodox Jew, called them "sickos," and refused to finance the parade as it would non-gay groups, a decision that is being challenged.

Mayor Ehud Olmert tried to convince organizers to hold the event in Tel Aviv, and seemed to regret his country's system of government when he said that he had to allow the march to take place due to the rules of democracy.

The High Court of Justice had to force the dominantly Orthodox Jewish city to provide services, including police protection.

There were some supporters on the street, but many passersby called the gay marchers "abominations," and blamed them for inciting the wrath of God and leaving the nation open to terrorist attacks."

http://www.thegully.com/essays/israel/020613_gay_pride_jerusalem.html
________________________________________________________________-

In fact, until as recently as 1988, you could be prosecuted under Israeli law if you were gay under the anti-sodomy laws, the repeal of the law in that year had to take place in the middle of the night when the legislators were mostly absent. When they found out the next day, they squealed like stuck pigs.
_________________________________________________________________---

"Isn’t it strange how problems in society always seem to be traced back to sexual purity? God doesn’t punish a nation for failing to feed the hungry, for failing to be sufficiently supportive of minorities, or even for failing to respect everyone’s equality and civil rights. Instead, God punishes a nation when individuals are allowed to engage in sexual behavior which religious leaders say God does not approve of. It’s hard to muster even minimal respect for a deity that cares more about what a few human beings are doing with their genitalia than about political and civil rights, hunger, or poverty.

...parade organizers have decided to cancel it because of the violence. Things were so bad that Jewish terrorists tried to stone the mayor of Jerusalem in lieu of stoning all the gays they couldn't get to - and the mayor of Jerusalem is himself an Orthodox Jew who is anti-gay. Apparently, it's not enough to be just anti-gay unless you are also pro-terrorism and pro-violence."
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/258428.htm?r=94

[msmcghee]

33. Yeah? When was the last time a homosexual was hanged in Israel?

How about the last time an adultress was stoned? Good try at promoting the bogus moral equivalency meme.

[calzone]

34. So you're saying....

Anything short of hanging for gays is OK? Gee.
Nice try at distorting the issue.
Everything I posted is factual, with backup, while you bleat.
Israel is homophobic and anti-gay, just as other countries, and Muslim influenced countries are no more homophobic than Christian or Hindu ones.
I see this as just more arbitrary Islam-bashing.

[oberliner]

35. Palestinian Gay Runaways Survive on Israeli Streets

TEL AVIV—At the bath houses of Tel Aviv, “Rani” finds anonymity and sometimes a free buffet. And there is always the chance of meeting an Israeli or a rich tourist who will offer his hotel room for a few nights, no questions asked.

For gay Palestinian runaways such as Rani, life on the street in Israel is a daily calculation of how to survive, but it is still easier than the persecution they say they suffered in the more traditional communities in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

“Anwar”—who like other Palestinian homosexuals interviewed by Reuters goes by an assumed name—fled the West Bank after his brothers and father suspected he was gay and beat him senseless.

Rani said he was tortured by Palestinian police who wanted him to spy on other homosexuals—a charge authorities at his Gaza hometown denied. He escaped on a work visa to Israel before a Palestinian uprising for statehood erupted three years ago.

Rights activists estimate that 300 mostly male gay Palestinians are quietly eking out a living in Israel, at risk of being forcibly repatriated because they are illegal immigrants or because police consider them a threat.

http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/palestine/psnews003.htm

[Tom Joad]

41. Why are they illegal immigrants in their homeland? While Israel settlers freely roam Hebron

and hundreds of settlements in the West Bank?

[oberliner]

45. Tel Aviv is part of the Palestinian homeland?

If I want to go live in the country from where my parents were evicted am I permitted to do so without going through any kind of immigration process?

I would also respectfully ask:

As someone who is comitted to justice, do you not think it's important to draw attention to the plight of homosexuals in the Palestinian Authority?

[ZacharyG]

37. "Israel is homophobic and anti-gay"

Israel remains the most advanced and tolerant in the Middle East in terms of gay rights, and indeed one of the most tolerant in the whole world.

Israel, Turkey, and (most recently) Cyprus are the only countries in the Middle East where homosexuality between consenting adults in private is neither illegal nor persecuted by the authorities.

Until 2001, Israel had been the only country in Asia where homosexuals are protected with anti-discrimination laws, which they now share with Japan. Israel remains the only one in the Middle East with such laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_rights_in_Israel

[breakaleg]

38. Why compare Israel to the middle east? Why not to the rest of the world?

I often see this kind of thing written and what it says to me is something like: 'we aren't as bad as they are' and what's implied but never stated is 'even though we aren't as good as you guys' on a certain issue.

[ZacharyG]

39. .

The excerpt from Wikipedia that I posted compares Israel to the Middle East, Asia and the rest of the world.

The fact is, when it comes to gay rights, Israel should be applauded.

[pelsar]

42. so compare.....

but then ALWAYS compare...on all issues...(I'll be happy to remind you of this as we compare killings or how other countries treat their illegals, etc)

lets start with the US

The United States has no federal law protecting against discrimination in employment by private sector employers based on sexual orientation

the US doesnt allow gay soldiers...

israel does:
Recognition of same-sex partner as adoptive parent
Age of consent lowered (16)
same-sex partner benefits in private sector
etc etc etc

[calzone]

46. Finally, some relavent points...

...I didn't think you had it in you.
OK, though your "etc, etc, etc" was a bluff-flourish, your facts have swayed me to accept that Israel has more official tolerance of
gays than the U.S.. What remains is to convince me that Israel has more societal tolerance of gays than other genuinely secular, modern countries. What I've read so far convinces me that it does not. (it took 40 years before Israel repealed it's anti-sodomy laws, and btw, the lawmakers did indeed squeal like stuck pigs-you should exercise a minimum amount of research before you challenge someone's facts, a weakness you've shown repeatedly) The gay groups that have posted on the net say it does not. And when making the relevant comparison, the Israeli-Lebanese-Egyptian comparison, the difference is negligible and irrelavent. As others have posted, if you're subject to societal discrimination and antipathy, it doesn't matter in the overall context, you live in an intolerant society.
Israel is no beacon of tolerance, whether you're talking about sexual orientation, women's rights, ethnic, nationality and religious matters, or treatment of prisoners.
I still think that the article is meant to take one more gratuitous swing at Arabs rather than to illuminate the plight of gays.

[pelsar]

47. you want relevant points?

then perhaps you should start off by learning about israeli society though the lens of an anthropologist/sociologist etc....not via whatever lens you looking through now....

your knowledge of israel and its society is borders on zero. For instance, a gay parade in Tel Aviv wouldn't even make waves given the liberal society that exists there..they chose Jerusalem precisely because of the religious element....to continue the changes they've started. And you would hardly know what the actual acceptance is hence your statement that has no meaning: your facts have swayed me to accept that Israel has more official tolerance of
gays than the U.S.

but this part i always get a kick out of..its kind of one of the last refugees of the "gotta bash israel for something: it took 40 years before Israel repealed it's anti-sodomy laws...do you really want to compare that to the states?....(we could throw in the "separate but equal" just for kicks-how long did that last for?)

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

50. you would lose....

I'll wager I've been following events in Israel longer than you've been alive. Maybe longer than your parents have been alive.


and i understand this is the extent of your knowledge:
The gay groups that have posted on the net say it does not.....pretty narrow scope of information, its not the kind that is really accepted to understand a whole society...but then i understand that is the extent of what know.

[calzone]

67. You're unbelievable...

The gay community in Israel is not qualified to assess the general attitudes and treatment of gays in Israel?
Wow.
You cannot be taken seriously.

[pelsar]

71. i happen to know

some gays in israel.....and they have a very different attitude/experience than what you think is happening...but what do they know, they just live in israel.

but this is just ....well so "out there" that words fail:
And when making the relevant comparison, the Israeli-Lebanese-Egyptian comparison, the difference is negligible and irrelavent

it would be irrelevant as long as you dont want to acknowledge the fact that israel is light years of head of those societies when it comes to gay legislation and everyday life.....i would suggest a bit of internet research on the laws in those countries as a first step.

look what i found:

http://www.indegayforum.org/news/show/27154.html

What seems less well known, however, is the appalling treatment of gays under Yassir Arafat's Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Gaza. At least it was less known until Yossi Klein Halevi wrote about it in the August 19th New Republic. Palestine makes rural Texas look like San Francisco.

According to Halevi, one young man discovered to be gay was forced by Palestinian Authority police "to stand in sewage water up to his neck, his head covered by a sack filled with feces, and then he was thrown into a dark cell infested with insects." During one interrogation Palestinian police stripped him and forced him to sit on a Coke bottle.

When he was released he fled to Israel. If he were forced to return to Gaza, he said, "The police would kill me."

An American who foolishly moved into the West Bank to live with his Palestinian lover said they told everyone they were just friends, but one day they "found a letter under our door from the Islamic court. It listed the five forms of death prescribed by Islam for homosexuality, including stoning and burning. We fled to Israel that same day," he said.
The head of a Tel Aviv gay organization told Halevi, "The persecution of gays in the Palestinian Authority doesn't just come from the families or the Islamic groups, but from the P.A. itself."

[calzone]

74. You cannot be taken seriously....

You offer nothing other than baseless, empty assertions.
I don't believe for an instant that you know any gays in Israel.
I'm sure the gay parades that were canceled due to pressure and threats of violence in Israel are signs of a tolerant society.
Funny thing is, those gay parades would never be canceleled here in the states. In fact, most Americans would be offended and angered if the same attitudes were shown here as in Israel.

[Andromeda]

52. Because we're not talking about the rest of the world.

We're talking about attitudes on homosexuality in the Middle East and Israel. Seems like you want to change the subject.

Can't say I blame you. Unenlightened Arab states have a pretty dismal record on tolerance.

[Violet_Crumble]

56. Jeez, that's a first...

Usually it's a 'supporter of Israel' who wants to talk about the rest of the world and not the I/P conflict. Ironic, huh? ;)

[calzone]

40. My sources seem to contradict Wiki, which ...

...shouldn't be considered an authoritative source for information.
I'll go by the common sense information from the sources I posted.

As for oberliners post, it doesn't really carry any relevance.

"Rights activists estimate that 300 mostly male gay Palestinians are quietly eking out a living in Israel, at risk of being forcibly repatriated because they are illegal immigrants or because police consider them a threat."

Eking out a living. Considered a threat by police. Nice. Israeli gays are also considered a threat, particularly since they've begun speaking up about the policies against the Pals and settlements.
Only 300 too. That's a very small number when you consider the probable number of gays in the surrounding countries.
Israel is no more tolerant than other countries.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ZacharyG]

49. .

I do not understand why you are so determined to deny the fact that Israel is a world leader when it comes to gay rights.

And if you do not accept Wikipedia as a legitimate source, I am sure you can use Google to confirm their facts about Israel.

Here is an article from 2002 from a source you used above that details the history of GLBT rights in Israel:

Although the idea of a vibrant queer community in Israel, reputed birthplace of the biblical condemnation of same-sex relations, may seem far-fetched, Israel today is one of the world's most progressive countries in terms of equality for sexual minorities. Politically, legally, and culturally, the community has moved from life at the margins of Israeli society to visibility and growing acceptance.

http://www.thegully.com/essays/gaymundo/020220_gay_israel_history.html

[calzone]

76. I'm just as perplexed

"I do not understand why you are so determined to deny the fact that Israel is a world leader when it comes to gay rights."

And I do not understand why you are so determined to overlook the fact that Israel is no beacon of tolerance when it comes to gays and other issues. I deny that Israel is a world leader when it comes to gay rights because my research doesn't support that conclusion. Since you seem to want to ignore my original rebuttal and extract a paragraph from one source that's...well...hardly glowing, I'll repost some of the relevant passages. I shouldn't need to do this, but it didn't make any impression the first time. It surely should've.
_____________________________________________________________

"Thousands of the Orthodox Jewish community in Jerusalem protested Wednesday against the efforts of a small group of homosexual activists to bring the so-called “Gay Pride” event to the city. Jerusalem is held as one of the world’s most holy places by Jews, Muslims and Christians.

On September 19, the Jerusalem Post reported that Jerusalem’s officials had agreed to allow the event November 10 in order to forestall a lawsuit by Open House and the Jerusalem police had reluctantly agreed to provide security.

Originally slated to be held last summer, it was canceled due to the security situation surrounding the Gaza disengagement, but not before it helped usher in a season of explicit anti-gay sentiment in Israel. A violent attack accompanied Jerusalem’s own gay pride parade that summer, a far smaller affair that draws only a fraction of the many thousands expected for World Pride. Midway through the parade, a marcher was set upon by a knife-wielding, ultra-Orthodox Jewish man."

Mayor Ehud Olmert tried to convince organizers to hold the event in Tel Aviv, and seemed to regret his country's system of government when he said that he had to allow the march to take place due to the rules of democracy. (pesky gay rights...calzone)

The High Court of Justice had to force the dominantly Orthodox Jewish city to provide services, including police protection.

There were some supporters on the street, but many passersby called the gay marchers "abominations," and blamed them for inciting the wrath of God and leaving the nation open to terrorist attacks."

...parade organizers have decided to cancel it because of the violence. Things were so bad that Jewish terrorists tried to stone the mayor of Jerusalem in lieu of stoning all the gays they couldn't get to - and the mayor of Jerusalem is himself an Orthodox Jew who is anti-gay. Apparently, it's not enough to be just anti-gay unless you are also pro-terrorism and pro-violence."

[leftynyc]

54. Israel is no more tolerant??

Do you really believe that? Are gays getting killed, are women getting stoned to death? And please don't change the subject - you really believe Israel is no more tolerant on these issues?

[eyl]

61. Huh?

Israeli gays are also considered a threat, particularly since they've begun speaking up about the policies against the Pals and settlements

cite?

Only 300 too. That's a very small number when you consider the probable number of gays in the surrounding countries.

?? That's the number of gay Palestinians who have crossed into Israel (and I suspect is an underestimate), so I fail to see your point.

[eyl]

60. You must be kidding me

In the "muslim-influenced" country of Iran, homosexuality is a hanging offense. I think the same is true in SA. That's no worse than Israel's record? (even with your exaggeration)

[Spinoza]

70. It is sad, but not

surprising to see:
1) An article (from that well known right-wing rag the 'San Francisco Chronicle') incontrovertibly supports the FACT that gays, including Palestinian gays, feel more comfortable and less afraid expressing aspects of their homosexuality in 'Apartheid' Israel than in Gaza or the West Bank.
2) Many posters express scorn, derision, contempt, anger at.....Israel.

Would it have been so painful for critics of Israel so simply acknowlege that in THIS ISSUE (treatment of gays) Israel is to be commended and its policies and attitudes are superior to general Arab attitudes and practices in the ME? Apparently, so. Nothing positive may ever be stated about Israel without a cacophony of 'buts' and 'how abouts' and 'what abouts' etc etc. You don't have to love Israel and still admit that Israeli society, in general, shows postive, liberal, progressive attitudes toward gays. You don't have to hate ME Arabs to admit that Arab societies, in general, show reactionary, discriminatory, bigoted attitudes toward gays. (Yes, yes there are many individual exceptions in both cases. That's why I said 'in general'.)

And regarding the issue of 'equality of cultures'. Take a look at this article: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070125/D8MSA9VO0.html

snip>" AMMAN, Jordan (AP) - A Jordanian man fatally shot his 17-year-old daughter whom he suspected of having sex despite a medical exam that proved her chastity, an official said Thursday. The man surrendered to police hours after the killing, saying he had done it for family honor."<snip

All cultures are equal, huh?

[Lurking Dem]

73. BAD ISRAEL! BAD! BAD! BAD!

That about cover it? *sigh*

[calzone]

75. Your response is hollow and deeply flawed

Spinoza wrote:
"1) An article (from that well known right-wing rag the 'San Francisco Chronicle') incontrovertibly supports the FACT that gays, including Palestinian gays, feel more comfortable and less afraid expressing aspects of their homosexuality in 'Apartheid' Israel than in Gaza or the West Bank."

Incontrovertibly? :-) A little hyperbolic eh? SF chronicle a Right wing rag? You have a habit of misrepresenting the facts. Please quote me where I said that. The article didn't show that gays, including Pal gays, feel more comfortable and less afraid expressing aspects of their homosexuality in apartheid Israel (glad you were honest in using that ajective) than in Gaza or the West bank. It purported to represent the view of one...single...person.
"2) Many posters express scorn, derision, contempt, anger at.....Israel."
Sad, but entirely appropriate. What else is sad that so many here will go ballistic and make hyperbolic blind denials of any criticism of Israel.

"Would it have been so painful for critics of Israel so simply acknowlege that in THIS ISSUE (treatment of gays) Israel is to be commended and its policies and attitudes are superior to general Arab attitudes and practices in the ME? Apparently, so. Nothing positive may ever be stated about Israel without a cacophony of 'buts' and 'how abouts' and 'what abouts' etc etc. You don't have to love Israel and still admit that Israeli society, in general, shows postive, liberal, progressive attitudes toward gays. You don't have to hate ME Arabs to admit that Arab societies, in general, show reactionary, discriminatory, bigoted attitudes toward gays. (Yes, yes there are many individual exceptions in both cases. That's why I said 'in general'.)"

There are no "Mulligans" in issues of justice and tolerance. If Israel doesn't deserve praise, it won't get it. Israel's practices aren't "superior" to general Arab attitudes & practices. Nothing negative may ever be uttered about Israel without a cacophony of "buts" and "how abouts" etc, etc. You can bet your ass I don't "love Israel". I don't in fact "love" any country, I look at how groups of people and govts behave and judge them accordingly. If a country acts like a bully and oppresses it's people or segments of it's people, as well as it's neighbors, I speak up, I don't make excuses for them and put blind nationalistic loyalty above honesty and justice.
Arab societies, Israel, and many other countries including my own, in general, show reactionary, discriminatory, bigoted attitudes toward gays.
Now here's where it gets surreal....

Spinoza wrote:
"And regarding the issue of 'equality of cultures'. Take a look at this article: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20070125/D8MSA9VO0.htm...

snip>" AMMAN, Jordan (AP) - A Jordanian man fatally shot his 17-year-old daughter whom he suspected of having sex despite a medical exam that proved her chastity, an official said Thursday. The man surrendered to police hours after the killing, saying he had done it for family honor."<snip

All cultures are equal, huh?"

Oh my SPIN, you try to support your bankrupt position by using one single, unrelated-to-the-issue incident to represent entire societies!? Your use of this as an example is another shameless generalization meant to attack an entire religion and culture. It smacks of bigotry.
The incident you cited is not legal or approved of in any Arab country.
It's like taking an incident in Appalachia where the hillbilly caucasion husband kills his daughter because she dated a black guy and saying "Welcome to America!" or more accurately, "welcome to western society!"
I'm not suprised it came from AP, a rightie propaganda org owned and operated by the rev. Sun Myung Moon. Next why don't you source the NY Sun or the Washington Times?
How about the American woman in Israel who was beaten (with the approval of others on board) and tossed off a public bus because she refused to sit in the back? Are you saying there's never been a case in Israel of a woman being victimized by her crazed, fundie male relatives? Go ahead, I could use a good laugh. Really.

[leftynyc]

80. I'm curious to know what happened to the Jordanian man

Was he even punished?

[Violet_Crumble]

81. What's sad is to see Palestinian gays used for political purposes by some *supporters* of Israel...

If you actually cared about them, you'd not have felt the need to post an article with a comment by yrself that was pure flamebait, and expect to return to see everyone slavering over how wonderful Israel is. Anyone who actually cared about the plight of gay Palestinians would realise that Israel shouldn't even need to come into the discussion, but unfortunately some here opt to use their professed caring for the plight of gay Palestinians as a political weapon in some clumsy attempt to make out that seeing gay Palestinians suffer discrimination the occupation is somehow justified. And for those sort of people their concern for Palestinians doesn't extend to thinking about how gay Palestinians would be treated in Israel. No, they wouldn't suffer too much discrimination for being gay, but they'd suffer discrimination just for being Palestinian...

Instead of trawling through news articles trying to show how evil other societies are, how about actually looking for the good in them for a change?

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

86. No, read the post yr replying to and try again...

This time take notice of what's being said and address that instead of something that wasn't said...

[leftynyc]

87. That's an awful lot of hyperbole in your post

"slavering over how wonderful Israel is" - who is doing that? Pointing out that gays are better received in Israel is a FACT - deal with it.

"Israel shouldn't even need to come into the discussion" - the article is about gays in Israel

I'd like you point out where in anyone's post there is justification for the occupation due to how gays are treated.

As far as your last line - the irony is just delicious

[Violet_Crumble]

88. Not at all. I suggest you try reading the article....

"slavering over how wonderful Israel is" - who is doing that? Pointing out that gays are better received in Israel is a FACT - deal with it.

There's several posters in this thread doing just that. I suggest you read through the thread objectively and if you still can't spot it I'll give you links...

So what if Israel treats gays better than in the occupied territories? The US treats gays better than Iraq did, but what I find strange is no-one's running round pointing that out. And the reason why is because it means nothing when it comes to the actual conflict...

What you should deal with is the fact that a discussion of gays in the Occupied Territories shouldn't even have Israel brought into it, but people do so coz their concern for Palestinians is only evident when they can carry on about the way Palestinians treat other Palestinians. It vanishes totally when it's Israel treating Palestinians badly....

"Israel shouldn't even need to come into the discussion" - the article is about gays in Israel

Since when has Ramallah been part of Israel???

I'd like you point out where in anyone's post there is justification for the occupation due to how gays are treated.

For a start try the ridiculous comment that accompanied the OP. I asked the poster to clarify it but he chose not to...

As far as your last line - the irony is just delicious

Can you explain what irony there is in it? If yr aiming that at me yr very wrong and might like to retract that comment...

[Shaktimaan]

89. thank you for bringing a moticum of concise sanity to the table, Spinoza.

well said.

[Tom Joad]

72. From ASWAT, a gay women's group.

http://www.aswatgroup.org/english/about.php

The mission of the ASWAT initiative is to serve as a Palestinian gay women’s group where we may express ourselves, discuss gender and sexuality, define our feminism, and address the conflict experienced by us between our national and gendered identities. The ASWAT group provides a safe space for any Palestinian woman who identifies as lesbian, bi-sexual, transsexual, transgender or inter-sexual, where we can break our individual silence through dialogue, self-education, healing and activism. In addition, we strive to generate social change in order to meet the needs of one of the most silenced and oppressed communities in Israel. We work to reach out to Palestinian and Jewish communities in Israel, and also to collaborate with other like minded institutes, groups and individuals in order to combat the multilayered discrimination we face and to promote women rights.

Need for ASWAT

Many women in the Palestinian society are living their identities and sexuality in secret. We believe that this is a result of the patriarchal structure of our society where surviving means being silent; silent in our neighborhoods and villages, silent inside our families and schools, silent within women’s organizations, and often even with each other. Palestinian patriarchal society does not accept, and often aggressively rejects, any expression of ‘otherness’. When women dare to identify themselves outsides the borders of prescriptive traditional gender roles and identities, they face violent exclusion, or even worse, violence against their own bodies and property. One strategy to reinforce silence on and subordination of women's sexuality or sexual energy and potential is through sexual violence. This is the reason why, until now, Palestinian women have hardly ever organized or dared to protest, resist, and insist upon creating a space to deal with issues of women's sexuality and lesbianism. Furthermore, as Palestinian women living inside the borders of Israel or in the Occupied Territories under Israeli occupation, we belong to an internally displaced population that does not enjoy equality in power, resources, education, culture, or religion. In addition to our feminist struggle for equal rights, privilege and opportunity in our society, we are at the same time very much part of a national struggle for recognition in our civil minority rights (Palestinian who live in Israel comprise about 20% of the population of Israel). < As long as women participate in the struggle for national liberation, we are welcomed and our efforts are appreciated. Some women can, in fact, leave the private sphere only if their activities serve men’s strategic and political aspirations for national liberation. The moment women want to focus their energies in establishing independence from the male occupation and structure, they are transformed instantly into enemies. The competition between different, sometimes clashing needs and struggles, puts us in peculiar situations where we are demanded to prioritize one struggle over the other or to choose our ideological 'loyalty' in a multi-layered reality and among potential partners. In this sense, ASWAT offers a unique perspective on social change in light of the conflict between identities and political struggles. [br />