Report: Hezbollah used cluster bombs

[DemFromMem]

http://www.jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=5187&ref=daily_briefing


Report: Hezbollah used cluster bombs
Hezbollah used cluster bombs against Israel during the Lebanon war, a watchdog group found.

In a report issued Thursday, Human Rights Watch cited testimony indicating that the Lebanese militia fired more than 100 rockets containing cluster bombs into northern Israel.

Israeli forces have themselves come under criticism for using similar munitions against suspected Hezbollah hideouts during the 34-day war.

“We are disturbed to discover that not only Israel but also Hezbollah used cluster munitions in their recent conflict, at a time when many countries are turning away from this kind of weapon precisely because of its impact on civilians,” read the report by the New

York-based group.

[atreides1]

1. Then they were both in the wrong

[Solo_in_MD]

5. Not necessarily

There are legitimate tactical uses for submuntion weapons which are not against the Geneva Accords.

[tocqueville]

11. like spreading over a whole country 72 h before a negotiated ceasefire ?

I'd like to see that Geneva paragraph

[Solo_in_MD]

12. Considering that did not happen in Lebanon

I presume your question is rhetorical

[tocqueville]

13. The Lebanon war didn't happen either, silly me

about the 72 hours :

http://www.google.fr/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-37,GGLJ:en&q=clusterbombs+72+hours

about the spreading :

Of Israel, the Human Rights Watch has said that there is evidence that has Israel used cluster bombs too close to civilians and described them as "unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians" and that "they should never be used in populated areas."<105> Human Rights Watch has accused Israel of using cluster munitions in an attack on Bilda, a Lebanese village, on 19 July <106> which killed 1 civilian and injured 12, including seven children. The Israeli ambassador to Moscow dismissed the reports as "Hezbollah propaganda"<107> and the Israeli "army defended ... the use of cluster munitions in its offensive with Lebanon, saying that using such munitions was 'legal under international law' and the army employed them 'in accordance with international standards.'"<108>

Unexploded cluster bombs dropped by Israeli warplanes or duds fired by artillery remain in much of South Lebanon, and have killed 12 people and wounded 39, according to Chris Clarke, head of the U.N. Mine Action Coordination Center attached to the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon. <109> These unexploded cluster munitions have created "mini-minefields" and the casualties include three Lebanese bomb disposal experts.<110> The U.N. Mine Action Co-ordination Centre in Tyre claims cluster bombs were dropped by Israel in 267 separate locations in South Lebanon and are still killing returning refugees. The United States has opened an inquiry into Israel's use of cluster bombs, which are supplied by the United States. According to The New York Times this is to determine whether Israel had infringed secret rules that restrict where cluster bombs could be used. <111> On 6 October 2006, several weeks after the ceasefire, the New York Times reported that "Since the war between Israel and Hezbollah ended in August, nearly three people have been wounded or killed each day by cluster bombs Israel dropped in the waning days of the war, and officials now say it will take more than a year to clear the region of them.United Nations officials estimate that southern Lebanon is littered with one million unexploded bomblets, far outnumbering the 650,000 people living in the region".<112>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeting_of_civilian_areas_in_the_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict

map here : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Locations_bombed_Aug13.jpg

[Behind the Aegis]

14. but it wasn't the "whole" country, now was it?

[tocqueville]

16. check the map

[Behind the Aegis]

17. map didn't show the "whole" country being seeded with cluster bombs.

The map shows a few locations outside of the south. Also the map only shows "strikes" and doesn't disclose which areas got cluster bombs. Your article however, primarily speaks of the south being seeded. Had you said "all of the south" that would have a little more accurate.

[tocqueville]

19. few locations ?

the south is litterally cluttered, the whole country has been targeted (remember that most of "hits" don't happen in the middle of nowhere since there was not question of hitting advancing armies). DU readers can check the map themselves and build their own opinion.

"Officials calculate that if they are lucky, and money from international donors does not run out, it will take 15 months to clear the area. There are now about 300 Lebanese Army soldiers and 30 other clearance teams, each of up to 30 experts, working on the problem of unexploded bomblets.

The United Nations Mine Action Coordination Center in southern Lebanon recorded 745 locations across the south where unexploded bombs had been found. Of the million estimated to be scattered around, so far 4,500 have been disposed of, according to the center.

“Our priority at the moment is to clean houses, main roads and gardens so that the displaced people can return to their villages,” said Col. Mohammad Fahmy, head of the national mine clearing office. “The next stage will be cleaning agricultural lands.”

In Lebanon there are two explanations of why Israel unleashed cluster bombs at the end of the war: to inflict as much damage as possible on Hezbollah before withdrawing, or to litter the south with unexploded cluster bombs as a strategy to keep people from returning right away."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/06/world/middleeast/06cluster.html?ex=1161489600&en=5fbd33d9251d994f&ei=5070

"Cluster munitions spread small bombs over a wide area, many of which do not explode on impact but remain live and lethal. So far the UN Mine Action Coordination Center (MACC) has identified some 770 sites contaminated with an estimated one million unexploded Israeli cluster bombs in South Lebanon. More sites continue to be identified.
Almost all the cluster bombs launched by Israeli forces were launched in the last 72 hours of the conflict – after the ceasefire had been agreed on 11 August.

Israel has so far failed to respond to UN requests to hand over maps detailing the areas which its forces targeted with cluster bombs. These are vital to assist bomb clearance and reduce the potential for further civilian casualties."

http://web.amnesty.org/pages/lbn-010906-action-eng

you can always discuss the semantics or the rethorics around the word "whole". But at least intellectual, if not moral honesty would be for you to sign the petition on the page above. This would be far more constructive.

[Solo_in_MD]

15. You need to find some better and more up to date sources on this issue

Yes cluster munitions were fired however
- They were not "spread over a whole country 72 h before a negotiated ceasefire" (your initial assertion)
- The reported amount has varied considerably. (1M to 300K) and has never been verified. The HRW assertion is the highest that has been published. No supporting documentation has ever been offered.
- Unexploded rate has never been demonstrated or verified
- There are legitimate military uses for cluster munitions
- Cluster munitions are not banned by any of the Geneva Accords

Cluster munitions may well have been used improperly. That needs to be researched, but there is no prima facie evidence of that at this time. Given the hue and cry over their use, I assume that an investigation by a credible group with standing is underway. Note that if the investigation does not have access to IDF tasking orders and targeting information, it can not reach the correct conclusion. Clearly HRW did not. Adding additional hyperbole on this topic does nothing to add to the rational discussion that should occur.

Regardless, unexploded cluster munitions are quite dangerous and need to be cleaned up. Same with mines, grenades, IEDs and the other residue of the conflict. The HRW report is dated, unsupported, not credible WRT to numbers, and its language gratuitously inflammatory. However, it did help raise awareness of the problem which is being worked on, which means even as a flawed instrument, it is doing some good.

[tocqueville]

18. you don't even check what is written

whole country : again : check the map (the UN image is on the wikipedia page, couldn't be posted here)

"72 hours" : a quote from Engeland, UN commissioner, a notorious Swedish antisemite.

of cours all reports of Israeli violations of ceasefire, use of that and that weapon, etc... is flawed, biased when not plainly wrong. There are just an expression for the eternal anti-Jewish hatred.

but facts talk for themselves, the pattern is clear even if some reporting mistakes are of course unavoidable.

What amazes me most is the lack of understanding that the constant denial of any wrongdoing is completely counterproductive for the Israeli cause.

[Solo_in_MD]

20. Its not a UN map, read the legend and the fine print

- The information in the box says it was extracted from the UN and Lebanese government data. All of that may be true except the bullet about reports of internationally banned weapons. Reports are not not data and cluster munitions are not banned.
- Per the text in the lower right corner, the information on the air strikes came from a blog (lebanonupdates.blogspot.com), with no provenance for the raw data.
- Its claims to document air strikes, not cluster munition strikes. Not all air strikes were with cluster munitions, and not all cluster munition strikes come from aircraft.

In summary there is a graphic on Wikipedia associated with a disputed article with no supporting data, poor resolution, that is not about cluster munitions, and its not a UN map. Surely you are not claiming it as authoritative.

I read the entire HRW report when it first came out. It was flawed then and they have produced no follow on to address/clarify/update what they said. For that matter, neither has anyone else. I find this troubling. Potential misuse of cluster munitions, the targeting of civilians, etc is a very serious matter that deserves a serious investigation. It appears that the UN has gone on to other matters so no one with standing is looking into it. I find that very troubling.

As for the claims of war crimes, I have seen no evidence of planned wholesale violations by the IDF, but given the size and scope of the operations, I have no doubt there were violations of the rules of warfare on a local level. There always are by all concerned. However, as I stated earlier, there appears to be no one with standing looking into it. NGOs like HRW really don't count it that regards.

I for one have never claimed that the IDF is not violating 1701, since they clearly are. Then again so is everyone else including UNIFIL. No one should be proud of what they are doing in that regard. The good news seems to be that Hezbollah is keeping their heads down and the Lebanese army has actually been sighted on their southern border for the first time in more than a decade. That is a major step forward. Hopefully they can keep it up and Hezbollah wither away, though the latter is doubtful given the support it receives from Iran and Syria.

I have also not blindly supported Israel though this. My prior posts during and after the conflict were clear on that. Save your "blameless Israel" strawman for someone else and come up with real data to support your claims, otherwise they are nothing but noise and hyperbole.

[whistle]

2. How makes cluster bombs and how would Hezbollah have access to them?

[Solo_in_MD]

6. Russians/Chicoms make them

As do other nations, including Israel

[mazzarro]

8. Maybe Hezbollah got them from 7-Eleven

I guess one can go to any convience-armament store and pick up cluster-bombs - so it would be too far fetched for them to use them in the fight.

[angstlessk]

3. Who is jta and why not a link to Human Rights Watch?

I googled and found nothing about the article...?? So is there a link to Human Rights Watch?

[furman]

7. HRW: Hezbollah Hit Israel with Cluster Munitions During Conflict

JTA is the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, a "Global News Service of the Jewish People".
http://www.jta.org
http://www.jta.org/page_today.asp
http://www.jta.org/page_history.asp


Human Rights Watch article:

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/18/lebano14412.htm

Lebanon/Israel: Hezbollah Hit Israel with Cluster Munitions During Conflict
First Confirmed Use of Weapon Type

(Jerusalem, October 18, 2006) – Hezbollah fired cluster munitions into civilian areas in northern Israel during the recent conflict, Human Rights Watch reported today. This is the first time that Hezbollah’s use of these controversial weapons has been confirmed.

Hezbollah’s deployment of the Chinese-made Type-81 122mm rocket is also the first confirmed use of this particular model of cluster munition anywhere in the world. Human Rights Watch documented two Type-81 cluster strikes that took place on July 25 in the Galilee village of Mghar.

<snip>

Israeli police officials told Human Rights Watch that they documented 113 cluster rockets that were fired at Israel during the conflict, causing one death and 12 injuries in all: in Mghar one death and six injuries, in Karmiel three injuries, in Kiryat Motzkin two injuries, and in Nahariya one injury. The police said they discovered the first of these rockets on July 15 in the Upper Galilee village of Safsufa. A total of 113 Type-81 cluster munition rockets would contain 4,407 individual submunitions.

Israeli police also showed Human Rights Watch physical evidence of a submunition from a Type-81 rocket that they said landed in the town of Karmiel and matched the one Human Rights Watch researchers saw in Mhgar.

<snip>


See also http://www.jcpa.org/brief/brief006-10.htm
Hizballah's Rocket Campaign Against Northern Israel: A Preliminary Report
(has pictures of damage from cluster bombs)

[DemFromMem]

9. News digest

JTA has been around about 80 years and does original reporting. But I get a daily email digest where they summarize news coming in from other sources. I see someone else linked to the Human Rights Watch report or would have done so. JTA doesn't do a lot of editorializing in its reporting and is considered to be pretty mainstream (like Ha'Aretz in Israel, for example). I have not seen too many folks attacking them for shoddy reporting. I do know that there reporters have been picked up from pretty well-known US newspapers and wire services. You can see bios of their reporters at http://www.jta.org/page_bio.asp. Hardly an ideological bunch.

[aquart]

4. Fine, worthy people.

What are the stated aims of their organization, again?

[tocqueville]

10. I did a little research...

and found that the weapon used is basically a BM21 multiple rocket launcher. If cluster munitions were used, it could be the similar SAKR 18 of Egyptian origins. It means a 23kg fragmentation warhead by rocket. It seems that those weapons have been around in the ME for a while. That stuff have been found in Iraq too by the weapon inspectors.

[Solo_in_MD]

21. The HRW article referred to them as Type-81 122mm rockets

which has 39 anti personnel sub munitions. That matches Janes as well.

It should be noted that HRW referred to cluster munitions as controversial and not illegal or banned. The legal analysis at the bottom is also interesting and is much less strident than some of their prior publications.

Article is here: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/18/lebano14412.htm