Nasrallah says he will not release Israeli soldiers

[Freedom_from_Chains]

unless Palestine prisoners are released. Fox news alert.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060922/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast

[ThomCat]

1. It will be interesting to see the replies.

Holding Soldiers captured during military actions will be considered a horrible abuse.
Holding civilians without trial or charges will be dismissed by some as necessary.

[PCIntern]

5. I was thinking the same thing

glad you did not disappoint.

[cali]

13. I think it's important to be factual.

And you're not doing that. First of all, H'zbollah is not the military of Lebanon, and ergo, it's wrong to state that the Israeli soldiers were captured in a military action. Second of all, Nasrallah has moved the goalposts. Originally, his demand was the release of Lebanese prisoners, as I recall. He's a provocateur, and I see nothing that indicates that he was anything but thrilled by the Israel's stupid invasion, and the resulting havoc. There's plenty of blame to shared in this situation, but hey, have fun mischaracterizing the facts.

[ThomCat]

14. Those soldiers

were captured while engaged in military operations. I don't care who captured them. They are military, and they shouldn't have been invading another country.

The rest of what you said is just your opinion and speculation.

It's nice of you to claim an interest in the facts. Is this new?

[cali]

15. LOL

I stick with the facts, wherever it leads me. That has often meant being critical of Israel, not just over the war but over the Occupation. However, that doesn't blind me to the 'sins' of Nasrallah or his organization. And yes, believe it or not, I'm entitled to drawing conclusions, and having an opinion. The difference between us is, unlike you, I don't make up my 'facts'. As for your accurate claim that the Israeli soldiers were engaged in military exercises, you omitted the salient point that they were on the Israeli side of the border.

Such obvious revisionist history, constructed from a desire to have facts fit your political agenda, is not only laughable, it's pathetic.

[ThomCat]

16. You're projecting again.

:)

[VegasWolf]

17. Exactly!

:toast:

[pampango]

19. My vocabulary is more limited than some here

Does "You're projecting again" mean that poster was wrong about the captured soldiers being on Israeli territory or that it doesn't matter what country they were in?

[ThomCat]

20. It means that the poster is the one revising history.

That bit about the Israeli army leaving only when the Lebanese army takes over is bunk. The Lebanese army rolled in as soon as Israel stopped bombing the hell out of lower Lebanon. Israel troups are still there.

And the agreement says nothing about Israel only conditionally leaving. They're supposed to be gone.

Earlier reports already stated that the soldiers were in Lebanon when they were captured. Israel frequently crosses the border to kidnap and assasinate people. That makes them legitimate targets.

[cali]

30. You can't stop yourself,

can you? Where did I say anything about the Israeli army waiting until the Lebanese army took over? Oh, that's right I never said anything about it. And much as it pains me to agree with someone who mixes fact and fiction with such wild abandon, you're right about Israel just getting out. They should.

As for your last claim, I triple dare you to provide a shred of evidence that Israelis have, since 2000, regularly crossed the border into Lebanon to kidnap and kill people. Oh, and using a reputable and unbiased source is a must. Now, that they haven't done so since then, hardly absolves the Israelis of their years in Lebanon, or of their propensity to hold Palestinians without trial, and to assasinate Palestinians, but again facts matter. Not that you have the ability to recognize that. If you've demonstrated nothing else, you done a bang up job in that regard.

I won't hold my breath waiting for you to acknowledge that I didn't say what you claimed I said. That takes a certain amount of character.

[The Stranger]

35. You want a shred -- how about a metric ton?

Israel regularly violates Lebanese sovereignty by flying over the country as if it were their garbage dump. They would be Lebanon's air force too, except for the fact that they bombed 1200 innocent Lebanese civilians last month (and, incidentally, stupidly made them into Nasrallah allies).

But even if they didn't Israel has fucked up enough of Lebanon for the six years she was absent, including the worst environmental disaster the Eastern Med. has seen when they decided to bomb fuel depots (still waiting to hear whether or not there were Hezbollah supposedly hiding in the tanks).

[cali]

38. Try again.

Here's what I wrote, and what you responded to-

"As for your last claim, I triple dare you to provide a shred of evidence that Israelis have, since 2000, regularly crossed the border into Lebanon to kidnap and kill people. Oh, and using a reputable and unbiased source is a must. Now, that they haven't done so since then, hardly absolves the Israelis of their years in Lebanon, or of their propensity to hold Palestinians without trial, and to assasinate Palestinians, but again facts matter. Not that you have the ability to recognize that. If you've demonstrated nothing else, you done a bang up job in that regard."

Your response had zip to do with my request for evidence about the claim that Israel has regularly, post 2000, crossed the border into Lebanon and conducted kidnappings and assassinations. And in case you have trouble with reading comprehension, try reading my post a little bit slower. I'm hardly giving Israel a pass.

[Stella_Artois]

31. I've not read that.

But if that is true, and their crossing the border to cause mischief makes them legitimate targets, then Hezbollah certainly are legitimate targets too.

[cali]

33. still on this thread

I see. Care to take back your claim that I said anything whatsoever about the Israeli army leaving when Lebanese troops take over?

[sabbat hunter]

56. you are missing the point

1) hizbollah is an illegitmate armed unit. They have no right under any rules of war to capture or hold soldiers prisioner
2) hizbollah crossed the border to capture the soldiers
3) what about the soldiers kidnapped by hamas, when they tunneled under the border?

[barb162]

25. She is sticking with the facts.

[Stella_Artois]

29. Well said

The original soldiers were snatched on the Israeli side of the border and where not invading anything, at the time.

[The Stranger]

34. The fact is that Lebanon has no military, except for Hezbollah.

That is why they have been the door mat for various and sundry other nations seeking to stop by for a while. The only entity that seems willing to raise a fuss when other nations invade is Hezbollah. Forget the niceties about it -- there are none there. Hezbollah is the Lebanese military by default.

[cali]

39. Why even post such an easily refuted claim?

From Wiki:

The Lebanese Army is made up of:

5 Regional Commands
11 Mechanized brigades
1 Republican Guard brigade
1 Commando regiment
5 Special Forces regiments
1 Airborne regiment
1 Navy Commando regiment
2 Artillery regiments
The Republican Guard Brigade is responsible for protecting the president and travels with him wherever he goes.

The army's equipment includes:

approximately 700 US-made Ford Motor Company M-113 armored personnel carriers
100 US-made M-48 A1/A5 medium tanks
200 Soviet-made T-54/T-55 medium tanks
40 French-made AMX-13 light tanks
The army also has a variety of artillery equipment and ground-based missile systems. The air force currently lacks any operational fixed wing aircraft. Active aircraft include ex-US Army helicopters, which are used throughout the country on a variety of missions:

30 Bell UH-1H - approximate
4 Robinson R44 Raven II
The air force recently acquired 4 brand new Robinson helicopters, which are used for training purposes. They are based at Rayak Air Base in the eastern part of the country.


Lebanese Navy
The Lebanese Navy is responsible for protecting Lebanon's waters, protecting ports, and fighting illegal smuggling of goods.

Equipment includes:

5 British-made ATTACKER-class patrol boats of 38 ton displacement
2 British-made TRACKER-class patrol boats of 31 ton displacement
2 French-made EDIC-class landing crafts of 670 ton displacement
25 inshore patrol craft of 6 ton displacement<1>.

Lebanese Air Force
The air force currently lacks any operational fixed wing aircraft. Active aircraft include approximately 30 ex-US Army Bell UH-1H helicopters, which are used throughout the country on a variety of missions. The air force has no combat aircraft.

The air force recently acquired 4 brand new Robinson R44 Raven II helicopters, which are used for training purposes. They are based at Rayak Air Base in the eastern part of the country.

On September 17, 1983 the Air Force flew their last combat sortie with three British-built Hawker Hunter F.Mk.70s from Rayak Air Base. They attempted to attack Druze positions. One was shot down and the pilot barely managed to eject himself into the sea. The second Hunter was heavily damaged and made a forced landing. The third did not return to the base but flew straight to Akrotiri, Cyprus, with the pilot eventually requesting political asylum.


Conscription
Lebanon previously had mandatory military service of one year for men. On May 4, 2005, a new conscription system was adopted, making for a six-month service, and pledging to end conscription within two years.


There's more here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=Lebanon%27s+military&go=Go

[Andromeda]

55. What????????

Lebanon didn't invite Hezbollah to stop and sit a spell to chew the fat. Hezbollah ISN'T the Lebanese military. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Lebanon can't do much about Hezbollah because they don't have the guts to stand up to them.

Hezbollah squats in Lebanon at the behest of Iran, those kindly souls to the north of Lebanon. When Iran says jump--Hez jumps. When A--------jah------duh says KILL, they kill. If they don't, A---mah----jah----duh cuts off the money and the weapons.

Hez is a wart on Lebanon's buttocks and they would like to get them removed but they're very rude guests who have overstayed their welcome.

Israel didn't start this mess. Hezbollah did. Jeesh, I wish you people would get your facts straight.

[hoboken123]

22. Your 'facts' are fabulous

Erroneous, but fabulous.

Your characterization of cowardly thugs lobbing missiles at civilians while crossing the border to kill Israelis and kidnap two of them is something else.

[ThomCat]

23. I think you misread my post.

It's the Israelis who have been crossing the border into Lebanon to kidnap and assasinate.

[hoboken123]

26. Oh I read it

You've taken the documented facts of the case and ignored them.

Good for you.

[barb162]

24. The soldiers weren't in Lebanon when captured.

They were in Israel and the terrorists came on to Israeli land.

That's what started the war- Rememmber?

[The Stranger]

36. That is laughable. They murdered 1200 because of two soldiers captured?

Not even Israelis believe that. Just ask them. This miscarriage of a plan had been in the works by Olmert and Co. for a year. That is why everyone is so angry about it.

[pampango]

41. Like most people I view the civilian casualties in Lebanon as horrendous

whether they amounted to 10 or 1,200 or 12,000. I realize that one side views these casualties as having been directly targeted or at least as callously disregarded in aiming at Hezbollah. The other side views them as a form of "collateral damage" that was minimized to the greatest extent possible. My guess is that neither side will change their view on this.

I assume that most of the casualties in Lebanon were Shia Muslims as the bombing was mainly, not exclusively, in south Lebanon and southern Beirut. During the period of this war, how many Muslims were killed in Iraq and Afghanistan by bombers (suicide, car and otherwise). I think it is safe to say that these casualties were intentionally targeted without question, as that is an apparently effective strategy of the Iraqi resistance.

The two situation are, of course, different on some level. If the killing of innocent civilians is wrong, as I hope we can all agree on, then it is wrong. I realize that no one on this thread has directly stated that one is fine and the other is wrong. I just don't like the unspoken message that I sometimes perceive that it is alright for a Muslim to kill a Muslim, but it is not alright for a Jew or Christian to kill a Muslim. Killing someone, especially a civilian, is not made more or less serious depending on the religion of the perpetrator or that of the victim.

[jacklambert]

2. Wasn't that part of the negotiated cease fire??

That Hezbullah would release the kidnapped Israeli soldiers and that Hezbullah would disarm.

Oh well, Nasrallah is 0 for 2.

Again, just another piece of the WWIII puzzle being put into place.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

3. You expected Hezbollah

to live up to its commitments?

Hah.

[aquart]

6. They are holding these people in Lebanon?

And Lebanon acquiesces in whatever they choose to do?

But Israel is supposed to be okay with that? Because Lebanon is okay with that?

Okey dokey.

[ThomCat]

11. Or Israel?

Which still hasn't ended it's presence in Lebanon despite the agreement?

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

12. They have and are

the condition is that they withdraw and are replaced by Lebanese military. They withdraw when the Lebanese military replaces them.

See Reply #9 for clarification.

[atreides1]

9. United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701

The Resolution demands:<1>

Full cessation of hostilities (OP1)
Israel to withdraw all of its forces from Lebanon in parallel with Lebanese and UNIFIL soldiers deploying throughout the South (OP2)
Hezbollah to be disarmed (OP3)
Full control of Lebanon by the government of Lebanon (OP3)
No paramilitary forces, including (and implying) Hezbollah, will be south of the Litani River (OP8).
The Resolution at the same time also emphasizes:<1>

The need to address urgently the unconditional release of the abducted Israeli soldiers, that have given rise to the current crisis.

[greccogirl]

40. Would any thinking

person be surprised? They are doing what they've always done - they will not abide by the cease fire conditions.

[OKNancy]

4. please provide a news story and a link

thank you

LBN Moderator

[Freedom_from_Chains]

7. I did, it was a Fox news alert

Unfortunately, I can't provide a link to your TV.

[maddezmom]

8. found a link please edit your title and add link

Hezbollah leader: Arsenal undiminished By HUSSEIN DAKROUB, Associated Press Writer
12 minutes ago



BEIRUT, Lebanon - In his first public appearance since the start of his group's 34-day war with Israel, Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah said his group has more than 20,000 rockets, and that an increased U.N. peacekeeping force will not hurt its guerrillas' arsenal. Nasrallah also thanked God for what he called "a divine, historic and strategic victory" over the Jewish state.

The black-turbaned cleric told a crowd of hundreds of thousands of flag-waving supporters in Beirut's bombed-out suburbs that his guerrillas will give up their weapons only when Israel's "threats" end and the Lebanese government is strong enough to protect the country.

"Today we celebrate a great divine, historic and strategic victory," Nasrallah said.

He also said he will not release two Israeli soldiers captured at the start of the war except in an exchange for Lebanese prisoners.

more:http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060922/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast;_ylt=Aqof48KER6s4U_j4xg3di_Os0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--

[Freedom_from_Chains]

10. Done. Thanks. n/t

[allemand]

18. Palestinian or Lebanese prisoners?

Your link says Lebanese:

The militant leader thanked God for what he called "a divine, historic and strategic victory" over the Jewish state and said his group would not release two captured Israeli soldiers except in an exchange for Lebanese prisoners.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060922/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast

[Freedom_from_Chains]

32. I thought I heard Palestine on the Fox News Alert

The link was provided by someone else, see post #4, so I have not read it.

[NOLADEM]

21. I will care as soon as Israel releases some Palestinians

[VegasWolf]

27. EXACTLY!!!!! nt

[manic expression]

28. One thing

Israel has acted without a shred of justification. What have they done about the countless Palestinians held in their prisons, some without trial? Don't forget that was a part of the situation in the first place. Please, Israel has not shown any responsibility or decency.

[cali]

42. Do you want peace in the region

or do you want to vent indignation about the Israelis? Lord, knows there's plenty to be laid a their feet, but in this case, Nasrallah is showing his colors by changing the original conditions he laid out for the release of the Israeli soldiers.

[pampango]

43. "Do you want peace in the region" Good question - who does?

It would seem to me that there are many actors on both sides who benefits from interminable conflict, e.g. defense contractors, IDF military establishment, certain clerics who may not see peace as a good career move for them, state actors who would rather distract their people with the "boogey man" rather than deal with the economic and political aspirations of their people, to name a few.

[zonkers]

44. This is sad and short sided. Right now, he has more to gain with

diplomacy. He could have converting his military success into something more. Instead, the people of Lebanon will bear the brunt of his stance. Israeli hard liners are surely pleased with his decision.

[bemildred]

37. Hezbollah Chief Leads Huge Rally

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/22/world/middleeast/23lebanoncnd.html?ex=1159070400&en=be6ba148cb7cee4f&ei=5087%0A

[Laughing Mirror]

45. How many Israeli soldiers are being held?

And how many Palestinian prisoners are being held?

[cali]

46. That's not the point.

If your're saying that Israel is holding thousands of Palestinians, quite a number of whom have had no trial, and should release them, I'm in complete agreement with you, but that's not what this is about. Nasrallah has stated that he would release the 2 captured/kidnapped/whatever soldiers for the release of Lebanese prisoners. Now, he's changed his position and is demanding the release of Palestinian prisoners. It's called moving the goal posts, and it's a lousy idea. In addition, he's openly taunting the Israelis with his boasts that H'zbollah has over 20,000 rockets, and refusing to abide by the U.N. resolution to disarm. I can understand is refusal to disarm, but his in your face rhetoric, is a piss poor idea.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leesa]

47. Nasrallah has decided to behave like Israel and ignore the UN resolution

They have had a good teacher.

[pampango]

48. As long as neither expect our applause for doing it. n/t

[cali]

49. That's a fine

logical fallacy there and reflective of the knee jerk blame Israel for everything mindset. And as you can see in this thread I hardly speak as an apologist for Israel. Nasrallah and H'zbollah are responsible for their bad acts, just as Israel is.

[pampango]

50. You're treading on dangerous territory there, my friend.

To recognize that individuals, groups, and countries are responsible for their own actions is pretty radical. As my young son likes to say, "It's always someone else's fault", never his. The other guy always did it first or said it first, and far be it for him to take a more mature and higher road.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

51. Really, individual responsibility and accountability?

Now that is a radical idea in today's world. Much too radical for me.

[muesa]

53. "Common Article Three" issue?

By one side? By both sides?

Article 3

In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:

1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.

2. The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.

An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

How were the two Israelis taken?

1. During normal military operations?
2. By Hezbollah irregulars in Israeli terriroty?
3. While Israeli soldiers were behind Hezboallah lines?

How was the one Israeli taken by Hamas?

[bemildred]

54. We kissed all that stuff goodbye some time ago.

This is dog eat dog, no quarter asked or given. Both sides pretty much do all of that stuff, whenever they feel like it.

[nicoll]

57. Exchange of prisoners

seems fair enough to me