Palestinians torch Qalqilya YMCA

[cali]

Prior to attack, Christian groups warned to vacate Hamas-controlled West Bank town; identities of attackers known to local government, but no repercussions likely

Aaron Klein, WND Published: 09.11.06, 03:44


Palestinian gunmen Saturday attacked and set fire to the Young Men's Christian Association headquarters in Qalqiliya, a large West Bank city controlled by Hamas.

Local government sources identified the attackers as members of the Hamas and Islamic Jihad terror groups, saying the identities of the gunmen are "well known" to Qalqiliya's security forces, which are controlled by the Hamas government.

Saturday's arson follows a series of warnings by the Muslim leadership of Qalqilya accusing the city's YMCA of missionary activity and demanding the Christian organization close its offices and leave town or face likely Muslim violence.

According to local reports, the gunmen Saturday afternoon destroyed the locks on the YMCA's entrance gates, crushed the gates, then entered the building and set it ablaze. Local fire brigades reportedly rushed to the scene and stopped the fire before it spread to neighboring buildings. The building sustained serious damage, YMCA officials said.

<snip>



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3302162,00.html

[Englander]

1. What's this got to do with I/P?

Anything, or nothing?

On edit;

I've just noticed the source for this article, it's the evangelical xtian site, WorldNetDaily!

[pelsar]

2. everything.....

the internal culture of the palestenians, their tolerence for "the other" has everything to do with two societies living side by side. Societies must have the ability to control their rouge elements otherwise they will soon take over the society or parts of it: If those that torched it are arrested that will be a good sign.

examples are Hizballa in Lebanon, Jihad islam in gaza, PLO in jordan (in the 70s)

i've noticed there seem to be those here who care little if the palestenaisn live under a Iranian style theocratic facist regime....as long as its palestenain.....personally i dont think that its a good idea to support.

and if christians write about the YMCA being burned....that suddenly is not considered news?.....or doesnt have any significance because "they're religious christians?"

[Phx_Dem]

4. Hey Pelsar, what "honor killing" are they referring to?

"Israeli officials say Hamas in the Gaza Strip has established hard-line Islamic courts and created the Hamas Anti-Corruption Group, which is described as a kind of "morality police" operating within Hamas' organization. Hamas has denied the existence of the anti-corruption group, but it recently carried out a high-profile "honor killing" widely covered by the Palestinian media."

[pelsar]

12. dont know....

we get very little information coming out of gaza these days.....its not surprising though, the intl reporters no longer have a protection via the IDF and are now "at the mercy" of the various jihadnikim, neighborhood watch groups etc. Reporting "bad" things may get one killed.

Nor are moral squads surprising, they part and parcel of any kind of religious cult system, be it a subculture or the main one.

Whats interesting about Qaqilya is that its "owned by hamas" ....what they do with the city is probably a sign of things to come. So now we come to a most interesting question for those who are actually worried about the palestenains and their freedom.

Hamas, seems to be imitating iran (surprise!!), for those who believe in liberty, civil rights, "human rights" this must be a very worrying situation. What liberal (i wouldnt use the word progressive here, since many here will support hamas government style) would wish upon anybody to live within a fanatical theocratic society as in the Taliban and Iran.

or to put it another way: which is better the shah or khomeni?....that was the choice the Iranians had...lots of liberals regretted khomenis return as they were marched to the gallows....the palestenians might be having a similar choice (israeli occupation or hamas....)

[pelsar]

13. found this though....

Honor killings on the rise in Gaza

Killings committed allegedly to protect family honor have escalated in the past two months," the Palestinian Center for Human Rights said.....

We didn't succeed in preserving the victory of liberating Gaza," Hamad said. "The reality in the Gaza Strip today is one of neglect, sadness and failure. When someone errs we are scared to criticize him to avoid being accused of being against the resistance."

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2006/me_palestinians_08_28.html

in general the palestenains are now facing some serious challanges where for the first time, they also have responsability, not just economically but socially as well. Many will still blame israel, but at the sametime, some are now looking at their own society, as in the above quote. There have been others as well, and thats a first step. However it may get worse if Hamas actually implements their charter.

[pelsar]

14. double post

[Tom Joad]

8. If Palestinians are so hard to live with... why does Israel keep

building Jewish-ONLY settlements right in the West Bank?

[breakaleg]

16. please. Israel can't even control it's illegal settlers or at least makes

no effort to.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. not even close to the same thing. n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

35. There's little to no difference...

Pelsar said: 'Societies must have the ability to control their rouge elements.'

The PA doesn't control its rogue elements, and neither does Israel....

[Behind the Aegis]

37. actually...

Israel does a much better job. When is the last time you saw a report that the PA had jailed a terrorist and put them on trial for his/her crimes? The idea that you think that the PA and the Israeli government are similar shows how little you understand the situation, as it pertains to justice and law.

[Violet_Crumble]

63. Israel does not control its rogue elements...

There are sporadic attempts to do so, but just like the Palestinians, the rogue elements are not brought under control. Or are the reports of extremist settlers just a figment of everyone's imagination. And jailing a terrorist isn't any indication of whether a society is capable or willing to bring its rogue elements under control....

btw, I don't think the PA and the Israeli govts are similar. Thinking that pointing out that two societies can't control their rogue elements is saying the govts are similar shows how little you understand the situation on any level...

[pelsar]

58. israel does a better job...

i can just imagine the outrage here (and in israel) if jews burnt down a mosque out of hate. Even the incident with the israeli "crazed couple" in nazareth with the fire crackers drew out the "israel is a racist state comments". (though we wont see any "palestenians are a racist society...will we?)

All societies lack control over some of their citizens, and no doubt israel could do a lot better job with the settlers.....but it was the palestenian muslims that ransacked jacobs tomb after israel left and its the palestenains that burnt down the YMCA.....both due to intolerance....

its has nothing to do with israel and everything to do with the palestenain society....the question at hand is if its just a singular incident or represents a pattern of things to come..... (morality squads, etc)

whatever the reason, it should be soundly condemed with no "ifs and buts and anything else that might be used to excuse it.

[Violet_Crumble]

64. Pelsar, Israel doesn't do a good job at all..

It's not about outrage and it's not about public opinion. It's about whether a society can control its rogue elements. All it needs is to look at the extremist settlers and their ongoing behaviour and attacks on Palestinians to see that Israel doesn't control them and that those who are now rushing to excuse that lack of control when it comes from Israel are displaying yet more double standards when it comes to viewing the conflict...


(though we wont see any "palestenians are a racist society...will we?)

You have to be joking. That sentiment has appeared in this forum in the past, continues to happen currently and will more than likely continue to happen in the future...

[pelsar]

67. i should explain.....

i view the actions of palestenain violence on palestenians as i view israeli violence on israelis (when its done in the name of religion, etc)

the violence of israelis on palestenains and palestenains on israelis i see through a "different lense"


internal violence within ones own society is far more dangerous than when fighting an "outside enemy" hence my comment. The israeli settlers dont attack israeli arabs (though i have no doubt that they would if they could)..hence they are controlled "better" by the society.

i do not excuse the settlers behaviour on any acccount nor can words describe my opinion of them (i think thats been made clear by me). If i have a bit of fanaticism within me, its civil rights within a society, which is why the palestenains burning down the YMCA really pisses me off. You can compare that to when they burned the synagogues in gaza, it didnt even bother me, seem to be a reasonable human reaction (though i wouldnt have objected either had they been used for something else as well-warehouse, resturant, etc)

[Violet_Crumble]

69. Thanks for the explanation...

While I agree with yr last paragraph and have a similar view of things, I don't agree with what you said before that because the settlers have attacked Israelis....

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

5. Let me rephrase this

since for reasons that are a mystery to me, my first post responding to you was deleted. There are frequent posts here about internal Israeli scandals and politics. This is an article about internal problems in a Palestinian town. If you have no problem with articles addressing Israeli internal affairs, to be consistent you shouldn't have a problem with this article. And I got it from ynet, not world news daily.

[Englander]

23. Nonsense.

Nothing it is, then. Since the reasons given to justify posting this pretty inconsequential incident
are nothing to do with this actual incident, but utterly irrelevant incidents which aren't related to
this, at all.
The article is from ynet, the source is WND, absurd claims that ignore that reality,
don't change that reality.

[pelsar]

26. inconsequential incident?????

palestenians burn down a YMCA for no other reason than its belongs to a different religion....the governing group belongs to HAMAs whos charter is pretty clear on what they believe (actions speak louder than a politicians words).....previous examples of goverenments based on "hamas like beliefs", the taiban and irans govt are probably one of the most fanatical govts the world has seen, complete with hanging homosexuals, leftists, girls with big mouths, stoning adultress in stadiums, cutting off hands, putting women in ninja costumes, etc

moral squads now seem to be prowling in gaza, dragging "hand holders through the streets behind cars (about 9 months ago was one example)....but its all "inconsequential.


my guess?...palestenian violence on palestenian is somehow excused as being "inconsequential".....(no israelis involved, but they can still be blamed......stay tuned)

[Tom Joad]

6. This must be the very first time in history that

an oppressed group, after decades of military occupation, dispossession, economic depression, homes destroyed, farmland taken (or put on the other side of a great wall), there has been incidents of violence... ever turned its rage against other members of their own community.

Not the first time. When has such a thing NOT happened?

[cali]

7. nothing like

spin.

[Tom Joad]

9. The criminal history of Israeli occupation should not be forgotten.

one has to remember the context of what happened here. That does not excuse it, but it does provide more understanding.

Might also help to remember there are those in power in Israel who wish to fan the flames of sectarian divisions to help divert attention from the illegal occupation.

Christian Palestinians say their biggest problem is not with their Muslim neighbors but with the occupation.

[pelsar]

15. gotta love it...

muslims palestenains burn down the christian YMCA...and its the israelis fault for the palestenians intolerence.....

[Tom Joad]

21. You have been part of an organization (IDF) that has demolished thousands

of Palestinian buildings, why is this one only to be condemned, the others excused?
You should renouce your participation in the home demolishing, bomb dropping & plain "monstrous" (in the words of the Battilian unit commander who described the dropping of over a million cluster bomblets) IDF, if you want any credibility about any concern for Palestinians.

[pelsar]

25. two different subjects...

one is an internal aspect of the Palestinians involving civil rights of their own citizens within their own society....and the repercussions of that society....will it be an imitation of the taliban?.....do all the "pro Palestinians here even care?

the other involves a war between two warring societies...

______

blaming israel for the Palestinians torching a YMCA and their intolerance for others of different religions is making the assumption that the Palestinians some how cant understand "tolerance" and act upon it. Me?..i believe they can and see no reason for "lowering the bar" of morality for their own civil rights...

(blaming israel for Palestinian muslim intolerance of Palestinian christians reminds me of the report that blamed israel for Palestinians who beat their wives....i cant help but finding this "israels made us do it" to be reaching new heights)

(and i still am part of that organization)

[breakaleg]

22. spin? Come on. How about truth? How about you reap what you sow?

[cali]

29. do tell

what dreadful things the YMCA has perpetrated.

[breakaleg]

50. If you read the sub-thread I was responding to, you'll see what

i was referring to.

It's the systematic abuse and treatment of Palestinians that have caused them to feel the way they do about Israelis. Is that too difficult a concept to understand?

Hatred breeds hatred. Violence breeds violence.

[Igel]

10. So they finally decided on their solution.

The YMCA in Qalqilya's been under fire, so to speak, for quite a while. Because of the 'C' in YMCA.

Only Islamist groups may provide services to Muslims. The Brotherhood way of business, adopted by some Shi'ites as well. If a Christian group does it, they're suspected of proselytizing or being biased, and of having too much power.

Truly a tolerant lot.

[Tom Joad]

11. Israel destroys homes all the time, every week. Tens of thousands

have been forced to leave their homes.

Gideon Levy in the daily Haaretz, the Israeli army "has been rampaging through Gaza - there's no other word to describe it - killing and demolishing, bombing and shelling, indiscriminately".

When will civilization come to Israel?

[Englander]

24. Yes, which is more important, & has greater consequences?

A single case of arson, or the deliberate, systematic destruction of hundreds of homes by an
occupying army? How many homes are destroyed, or burnt, by the occupying forces, & the settlers they
protect? How much of the essential infrastructure has been demolished by these occupying forces?

[Behind the Aegis]

32. this relates to the OP how?

[breakaleg]

17. it annoys me to see the use of the words "terror groups" when they are

really armed resitance. But them calling them what they are would imply Israel is doing something wrong - like the occupation - that they had to fight. But calling them terror groups automatically implies they are criminals fighting for no reason.

[geek tragedy]

18. Terrorism is a tactic, not a description of whether or not

one has a cause.

There is no doubt that IJ and Hamas use terrorism. (Or, in Hamas's case, have used terrorism. They've abstained since winning the Palestinian elections).

Besides, I think it's fair to call people who attack a freaking YMCA terror groups. No one is oppressed by the YMCA, except maybe people who can't stand the Village People.

[breakaleg]

19. My comment was on linguistics.

The press always uses terror group to describe them, regardless of the context.

[geek tragedy]

28. I can somewhat understand that comment regarding

Hamas, but Islamic Jihad is pretty much all terrorism, all the time. No other term but 'terrorist' is appropriate for them.

[msmcghee]

20. " . . except maybe people who can't stand the Village People."

LOL - very good!

[idontwantaname]

30. crappy reporting from WND and YNET

a good amount of fabrication to the above story and i seriously doubt WNDs credibility.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. how so?

Where is your proof? This is not the first time that particular YMCA has been attacked.

[Englander]

33. ~~

?click

[Behind the Aegis]

34. the questions still go unanswered.

[Englander]

36. Which ones?

The first meaningless rhetorical question, or the second? Please explain why anyone should place
any credibility in the conservative, evangelical xtian, & just plain weird, WorldNetDaily?

[Behind the Aegis]

38. Do you understand the meaning of "rhetorical question?"

The subject line is not an example of rhetorical questioning. The first question, "how so?" is in regards to the person I was posting to and asking him/her how the report was flawed. I see you understood the second question, but were unable/unwilling to answer it.

As for your question, I believe that is a strawman. Normally, I take the WND with a grain of salt. However, I was not able to find anything that refutes what they wrote. I guess it is that whole "broken clock" thing; they are bound to get something right every now and again.

[Englander]

39. Well, that explains everything.

A site that's obviously conservative, is produced by, & for, evangelical xtians, is considered by
most people to be off the wall bizarre, is now a reputable source of info, & should be believed?
No, thanks.

'Prophet' summons UFO for camera
Las Vegas TV station captures, broadcasts image

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

An ABC-TV affiliate in Las Vegas broadcast images of a UFO summoned by a self-styled "prophet" who predicts many more will be seen throughout the area next week.

Ramon Watkins, also known as "Prophet Yahweh" agreed to meet with a reporter and camera crew of KTNV at a location of their choice and time.

What they witnessed, and captured on camera, stunned the reporter and crew.

Watkins claims to have seen some 1,500 UFOs over the last 25 years and has learned to summon them by reading the Old Testament.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44503

[Behind the Aegis]

40. still no answers, huh?

(that is rhetorical, BTW)

[Englander]

53. To the question about WND?

Well, obviously. Although, I recall, this isn't the first time that a conservative, evangelical
xtian, extremely pro-rw Israeli govt site has appeared, in this forum. I recall that Israpundit was
used when a link was asked for to provide some evidence for a statement, & another evangelical/xtian
Zionist site was used as *proof* on another occasion. Could this be part of a pattern?

[Behind the Aegis]

54. the report was correct...

over editorialized, but the basic info correct, nonetheless.

[Englander]

56. Nobody said it wasn't.

The facts about the arson by unknown individuals aren't being disputed, but the *source* of the info
is my argument, it appears that the counter-argument is that WND = not crappy, WND = reputable source
of info, WND = source for fact-based reportage, is that correct? Let me know if that's not the
counter-argument presented, but it certainly looks like it is.

[idontwantaname]

45. let me speculate

though i have limited knowledge of qalqilia and not much time right now to ask my "sources" ill pose this question... perhaps the local al-aqsa chapter was working out of the YMCA... given the fact the YMCA was started in 2000 this might be a possibility.
perhaps the extremists of hamas or islamic jihad have some beef with the al-aqsa boys (only they know) and this was an attack or retaliation for something we dont know about.

given the fact qalqilia is completely walled in by israels wall, anything is possible. theres no economy and restricted travel. a sort of scenario where you put some folks in isolation and wait for them to get crazy enough to kill each other... you ever see that twilight zone episode?

[Behind the Aegis]

48. thanks for the response...

...from the source I provided, it seems that it may be because they (the vandals) felt that the YMCA was doing missionary work, which the PA denies. To me, it seems this was a religiously motivated crime, not "gang turf wars," though, in that area, that is also a plausible guess.

[idontwantaname]

51. missionary work

i have a good amount of doubt that any sort of missionary work is going on anywhere in the west bank. this summer i had 3 friends in bethlehem with a religious christian group. 2 of them were key organizers and 1 was a first timer. they are pretty clear that they are not doing any missionary work but work more along the lines of nondenominational work with palestinians... while personally experiencing and getting connected to the roots of their religion and the place where jesus was born.

additionally CPT which has a presence in hebron does not engage in any missionary work. im sure the YMCA was just there in name though i just spent some time going through ymca.net and other ymca sites and they say nothing about a location in the west bank or qalqilia.

[Behind the Aegis]

52. I agree with you.

The comments from the YMCA international and even the PA have been adamant that there is no missionary work going on at all. What I was saying is that the thugs thought that was what was happening, which is why they attacked that structure. My understanding from the YMCA's website and a Palestinian website is that the YMCA is there for fellowship and the like, nothing more.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. and this source? Is it just as "crappy?"

Unknown gunmen attack YMCA office in Qalqilia
Ghassan Bannoura – IMEMC & Agencies - Saturday, 09 September 2006, 13:20

Unknown gunmen attacked and set fire to the Young Men Christian Association (YMCA) office in the West Bank city of Qalqilia, on Saturday morning.

According to local police reports, the men destroyed the locks on the YMCA building's gates, destroyed the gates, then entered the building and set fire to some rooms. The building sustained partial damage due the fire. Local fire brigades rushed to the scene and stopped the fire before spreading, police said they had opened an investigation to hunt down and arrest the attackers.

Local clergy and officials in the city condemned the attack and called it 'illegal and irresponsible'.

This is not the first time the organization has been attacked in Qalqilia. Several months ago a group of unknown gunmen attacked the outside door and set it on fire. Also, the organization was accused in the past by some Imams of doing Christian missionary work. The Imams had asked the Palestinian Authority to close it.

more...

[geek tragedy]

42. Washington Post story

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/09/AR2006090900279.html

"In an incident in the occupied West Bank, an unidentified group of attackers set fire to the Qalqilya offices of the YMCA, a Christian association that runs youth programs, Palestinian security officials said.

The governor of Qalqilya described the attackers, believed to be part of an Islamic group, as fanatics."

[msmcghee]

43. From elsewhere in the same story . .

"The business leaders appealed to militant groups to agree not to carry out any attacks near the Gaza crossings, including the Rafah border crossing between Gaza and Egypt and the Karni commercial crossing between Gaza and Israel."

Hmmm. Palestinians asking the militants to stop some of their attacks on Israelis. I wonder what those who claim that that the IDF is randomly attacking Gaza civilians with no purpose other than to kill Palestinians - would conclude about this result that could possibly reduce the killing all around.

Hopefully, they might realize the obvious - that the only action by Israel that can reliably reduce the attacks by the militants and the resulting suffering of the Palestinians at the hands of the IDF - is collective punishment severe enough that it causes Palestinians to insist that their government make peace with Israel - not war.

:eyes:

Isreal may be killing some Palestinians in their ops to capture terrorists - but it will be the cries of the business leaders that will have the most effect IMO. And the sooner that happens the fewer Palestinians will die.

[pelsar]

47. thats acutally good news....

"We ask you to take serious steps in order to stop this deterioration ... through an agreement among factions to exclude the crossings from the circle of struggle with the occupation," the statement said.
___________

a couple of interesting points....for obvious political/self survival reasons they cant say "stop trying to kill israelis"...but they are saying at the sametime what is also obvious: stop attacking and our economic situation will improve....they recognize what poster here at the DU have trouble with (guess cause they live there), if they dont threaten/attack israelis, israel wont shoot back.


its not that they didnt know this before, it could be that as things get worse and worse they're getting up the "gumption" to take responsability for their own society and its actions......

[idontwantaname]

44. thanks for the link

this is more along the lines of what the actually "truth" of the matter is. the WND story is very slanted taking certain liberties to describe what actually happened.

though i dont have much time right now, id like to illustrate:

story 1)old man reports someone left flaming bag of poop on his porch. police were called to the scene and nobody was injured.

story 2)WND has learned from secret sources that black (african american) gangs are terrorizing local neighborhoods. (insert picture of LA riots) WND political source states this terror incident is directed toward hispanics because of their dominance in the region. a petition obtained by WND states "black people hate white people". congresswoman maxine waters is african american and we cannot expect her to act against this violence. in conclusion muslims must be stopped before they take over the world.

--------------------

in all honesty the OP isnt "bad" its just taken a lot of liberties which border between news and opinion... and this is my opinion.

[Englander]

55. That's radically different from the WND shite.

Which would be expected, conservatives are in the habit of misrepresenting/exaggerating incidents,
& that's what WND have done.

[geek tragedy]

57. I agree about WorldNutsDaily. If I see a story run by them,

I'll always check it against more credible sources. If it's an I/P story, and neither the Jerusalem Post nor Haaretz mentions it, it's a giant red flag.

[breakaleg]

46. Given that much of the Palestinians governing body has been kidnapped

by Israel, and their funds have been cut off so they are unable to pay their employees, I can see why the Palestinian Authority would find it difficult to operate, let alone do much about crime in their backyard.

On the one hand Israel expects the PA to be strong, powerful and control crime, but then it ties their hands behind their back, giving them a distinct disadvantage.

[Behind the Aegis]

49. is the PA responsible for anything?!

Or is it always the Israelis fault with you?! Did you not read this story? It was about Palestinians setting a YMCA ablaze, likely because of religious intolerance. Yet, you have made Israel the "bad guy." un-fucking-believable!

[Spinoza]

59. Good for you

for bringing this back to the key point. I post an article that Israeli courts CONVICTED an Israeli on charges of murder against Palestinians, and the majority response was......hysterical criticism of Israel. Here we see a story about Palestinians torching a YMCA, not an Israeli in sight, and the response is......criticism of Israel. Hmmmmm, do we see a pattern here?

[Violet_Crumble]

61. I thought it was a Pot, Kettle, Black moment..

The thread you started with the responses that are now being misrepresenting has nothing at all to do with this thread. Though speaking of that thread I'd be interested for you to reply to my post where I pointed out some whopping huge mistakes in one of yr posts. Will you be needing a link to find yr way over to it?

I'm seeing a pattern here. Some people cannot tolerate any criticism of Israel, unless it is a mild form done by themselves where blame is immediately cast elsewhere (eg Israel does have a problem with discrimination, but it's not Israel's fault). Ironically enough, it's the worst of those types that are the loudest when accusing the other side (and yes some do the same thing) of doing what they themselves are guilty of...

[cali]

65. Pot/kettle indeed.

The same can be said about those on the other side of the fence. The outrage when anyone posts a thread that doesn't reflect well on palestinians is just as great as that from those who defend Israel. Glad to see you acknowledge that, even if it is somewhat a grudging aside.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. Indeed it was a pot/kettle moment...

The same can be said about those on the other side of the fence.

Which is why I said that very thing in my post. So why does the title of yr post dispute that it was a pot, kettle, black moment? btw, my aside was no more grudging than yr acknowledgement a while back that anti-Arab/Muslim sentiment exists at DU :)

[Spinoza]

70. I read your posts.

But I won't respond to them.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. That's nice...

It's a step up from those who don't read but insist on responding :)

[pelsar]

60. and its spreading.....

Four devices blew up near the oldest church in Gaza City, causing damage to a nearby building, a church worker has said, three days after the pope made comments deemed insulting to Islam.

No casualties were reported in any of the incidents.

Early Friday morning, a home-made grenade exploded outside a Christian youth association building in the same compound as the Greek Orthodox church in downtown Gaza City, causing minor damage, police said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060915/wl_mideast_afp/vaticanpopeislam

i understand that they're pissed at the pope.....and i'm guessing, reading some of the previous posts there will probably be some here who blame israel (pope makes comments about islam, muslims toss bombs at church....its israels fault)

[Violet_Crumble]

62. I'm very curious to know...

Nothing to with the OP, but do you see anything wrong with the Pope's remarks?

btw, predictions of what other posters will 'probably' say where what they will 'probably' say is something that's absurd and not at all likely to be said is an incredibly clumsy and pathetic tactic. Focusing on what people actually do say would seem to be a much more constructive way to post here, imo...

[pelsar]

66. actually i didnt even read them....

i'm not much for listening to religous "leaders" and what they have to say. I usually get my fill out of our own "shas leader" Ovedia Yossef...hes always good for a joke or two.

As far as what the pope said or didnt say (again i didnt even bother reading exactly what it was), theres no reason for shooting up or bombing churches or YMCAs etc.

no excuse what so ever.....(my comment was probably because i get tired of excuses for peoples fanatical behavior) burning down a YMCA, placing bombs on churches or mosques etc is done by intolerant people....and they're should be no excuses for that behavior....

[Phx_Dem]

71. I read it--about three times

The story he used about the bys. emperor and a persian seems only tangentially related to his premise which struck me as odd. He did not say one way or the other whether he agreed with the emperor, I still can't figure out whether he thinks the Hellenization of Catholicism is a good thing or not.

Apparently the pope writes his own speeches, others at the Vatican did try to make the pope aware that some people would find the story objectionable, but he did not change it. The pope af all people should have been more sensitive to others religious traditions.

[pelsar]

72. what ever the pope said is really not the point.....

he could have said that muslims are the sons of monkeys and pigs...or he could have drawn a cartoon showing a muslim political leader eating christian children...doesnt excuse any single muslim for taking a bomb to a church.

the problem is not the popes sensitivities, or whether he could be better at it (who am i to tell him what to do, hes got a direct link to god), the problem is with those who when "insulted" go out and bomb something or other......

that kind of behaviour has no place in society and nobody should be excusing it

[Spinoza]

73. Benedict's (foolish)

remarks basically accused Islam, or at least Jihadists, (by quoting a 14th century denuciation of Islam) of embracing violence in the spread of their faith. And the response from some Muslims is......violence and threats of violence. What is the definition of 'irony' again?

[Violet_Crumble]

75. It is, because that's what I asked you about...

I didn't ask you about yr opinion on anything else, I asked you for yr opinion on what the Pope said...