Israel may 'go it alone' against Iran

[sabra]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525933028&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Israel may 'go it alone' against Iran

Israel is carefully watching the world's reaction to Iran's continued refusal to suspend uranium enrichment, with some high-level officials arguing it is now clear that when it comes to stopping Iran, Israel "may have to go it alone," The Jerusalem Post has learned.

One senior source said on Tuesday that Iran "flipped the world the bird" by not responding positively to the Western incentive plan to stop uranium enrichment. He expressed frustration that the Russians and Chinese were already saying that Iran's offer of a "new formula" and willingness to enter "serious negotiations" was an opening to keep on talking.

"The Iranians know the world will do nothing," he said. "This is similar to the world's attempts to appease Hitler in the 1930s - they are trying to feed the beast."

...

Having said this, he did not rule out the possibility of US military action, but said that if this were to take place, it would probably not occur until the spring or summer of 2008, a few months before President George W. Bush leaves the international stage. The US presidential elections, which Bush cannot contest because of term limits, are in November 2008.

[Waya]

1. Yea, that's right........

..they had a hard enough time with Hezbollah....let'em try Iran.........

[MannyGoldstein]

8. Going To School on Iran

The Israelis are likely using Lebanon to "go to school" on Iran.

Martyrdom-crazed Mullahs (whose proxies are calling for the murder of all Israelis), with nuclear weapons, are in nobody's best interest.

[Jacobin]

30. Do you think Israel can win a war with Iran without the use of

nuclear weapons?

If you think nuclear weapons will be needed to win that war, do you support the preemptive strike by Israel on Iran with nuclear weapons?

I'm asking this question in all seriousness, because when nations start talking war, I think its a good idea to game through how things might evolve, even though its impossible to game through how your opposition might react.

Thank you.

[MannyGoldstein]

49. What Does "Win" Mean?

They cannot "defeat" Iraq - that is, break them as a political entity - without nuclear weapons.

However, they might well be able to greatly diminish Iran's capacity to harm or annihilate Israel.

[The Stranger]

57. Nice pro-war propaganda there -- and you fit it all in one sentence.

Martyrdom-crazed Mullahs (whose proxies are calling for the murder of all Israelis), with nuclear weapons, are in nobody's best interest.

The "martyrdom-crazed mullahs" propaganda doesn't really fly here, Manny. The Neoconservatives want the U.S. to go to war with Iran and get fucked like the U.S. is in Iraq.

To do that, I guess everyone is supposed to think that Iran will attack the U.S. if it gets nukes -- which is absurd. Iran is a decade away from nukes and would never attack the U.S. Iran has stated that it would agree to nuclear inspections if the U.S. would give it security guarantees, but the U.S. refuses.

[barb162]

103. Iran's Prez is a very willing proxy for the nutty mullahs

And no one is really sure how long it would be beofre the Iranians have nukes becuause they aren't allowing inspections.

[IndianaGreen]

69. Who writes those propaganda talking points you are spouting?

Martyrdom-crazed Mullahs (whose proxies are calling for the murder of all Israelis), with nuclear weapons, are in nobody's best interest.

What's your source for that piece of work, the Islamophobic and hate mongering MEMRI?

After her war crimes in Lebanon, Israel has as much credibility as the Bush White House!

Iran says its policy is "Yes" to enrichment but "No" to nuclear weapons. A fatwa against nuclear weapons has been issued by the Supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4031603.stm

The Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has issued the Fatwa that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that Iran shall never acquire these weapons, it added.

The full text of the statement is as follows:

"Madam chair, colleagues,

"We meet when the world is remembering the atomic bombings of the civilians in Hiroshima (Aug 6) and Nagasaki (Aug 9) sixty years ago.

The savagery of the attack, the human suffering it caused, the scale of the civilian loss of life turning individuals, old and young, into ashes in a split second, and maiming indefinitely those who survived should never be removed from our memory. It is the most absurd manifestation of irony that the single state who caused this single nuclear catastrophe in a twin attack on our earth now has assumed the role of the prime preacher in the nuclear field while ever expanding its nuclear weapons capability.

<snip>

"You can then understand, why Iran after being denied nuclear technology in violation of the NPT, had no other option but to rely on indigenous efforts with precaution on full transparency and we succeeded in developing our nuclear technology. Iran is a nuclear fuel cycle technology holder, a capability which is exclusively for peaceful purposes.

"The Leader of the Islamic Republic of Iran, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has issued the Fatwa that the production, stockpiling and use of nuclear weapons are forbidden under Islam and that the Islamic Republic of Iran shall never acquire these weapons. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who took office just recently, in his inaugural address reiterated that his government is against weapons of mass destruction and will only pursue nuclear activities in the peaceful domain. The leadership of Iran has pledged at the highest level that Iran will remain a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the NPT and has placed the entire scope of its nuclear activities under IAEA safeguards and additional protocol, in addition to undertaking voluntary transparency measures with the agency that have even gone beyond the requirements of the agency's safeguard system.

http://www.mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=302258

[saigon68]

71. Nice Straw Man (Martyrdom-crazed Mullahs)

Martyrdom-crazed Mullahs (whose proxies are calling for the murder of all Israelis), with nuclear weapons, are in nobody's best interest.

Nice respect for Islam too.

[barb162]

105. Not a straw man at all; this kind of activity happens a lot

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm
Here's two just from England

Hate preaching cleric jailed

El-Faisal had denied all the charges against him
A Muslim cleric who urged followers to kill non-believers, Americans, Hindus and Jews has been jailed for nine years.
snip


Here's a different one
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4690224.stm
Abu Hamza jailed for seven years
Controversial Muslim cleric Abu Hamza al-Masri has been jailed for seven years after being found guilty of inciting murder and race hate.
snip

[stepnw1f]

87. "Martyrdom-crazed Mullahs" meet "Neo-Nutbag Israelis"

If only we could round up all these nutcases and put them on an island together far away from civilization. Then we'd have peace.

[barb162]

106. I don't see Israelis calling for Iran to be wiped off the map do you?

You are dead wrong in your comment except for the part about rounding up the hate- crazed mullahs and putting them on an island somewhere with all their followers. It would have to be a very large island.

[IndianaGreen]

109. They are calling for American Jews to lobby for war against Iran

as if we were all a bunch of automatons that jump at anything that Israel's PM says.

[stepnw1f]

128. crazy.... I'll Buy You a Ticket

as soon as we get an island for you. Then you can kill all you..... oh wait a minute! Enlist now!

[Fovea]

115. I cannot imagine the Chinese allowing

Israel to nuke Iran without severe consequenses. Russia too, may be in this agreement. Read Barb Tuchman's 'The Guns of August' for further expansion of the paradigm.

Having left the age of cold war bilateral power, who is to say we have not re-entered the world of secret treaties?
I think that the only chance Israel would have against Iran would be to nuke as many infantry units as they could muster bombs for.
That would be a disaster of, dare I say it, biblical proportions.

This could very well mark a new chapter in the history of mankind, and not a happy one.
This faith based hot war will be fought with every evil device the mind of man can currently instantiate.

It will not end with men hitting each other with sticks. It will end more like the Terminator movie, without the Deus Ex Machina of time travel. Kind of like 'On the Beach' but without the happy ending.

[bdamomma]

2. Israel is signing its own death certificate

how sick.

[PCIntern]

3. ...and by not acting, they'll likely be

decimated. I heard the same stuff when they bombed the reactor in Iraq. Everyone, and I mean everyone in the ME slept better that night.


:evilfrown: :evilgrin: :hippie: :party: :toast: :bounce: :mad: :puke: :eyes: :smoke: :think: :crazy: :silly: :wtf: :argh: :freak: :dunce: :hangover: :nopity: :hurts: :boring: :spank: :wow: :beer: :grr: :nuke: :scared: :thumbsdown: :thumbsup: :hi: :dem: :kick: :shrug: :puffpiece: :loveya: :donut: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :grouphug: :cry: :pals: :headbang: :yourock: :banghead: :dilemma: :blush: :rant: :sarcasm: :woohoo: :applause: :hide: :popcorn: :rofl: :spray: :patriot: :yoiks:

[Eugene]

11. Bombing the Iraqi nuclear reactor wasn't that effective in the long run.

It didn't derail the Iraqi nuclear program, it focused it.

Israeli attack 'jump-started nuclear programme' - BBC

It is unwise to think that Iran did not learn from Iraq's experience
with the bombing too.

[PCIntern]

13. your point is highly debatable...

they were ready to go on line in a mattter of weeks. I'm tired of people positing that Saddam's a nice guy b/c GWB eliminated him. Iran learned from that bombing...no telling what plan the Israelis have up their sleeves.

that being said, we had that country under some control after the Gulf War. Now we're screwed...

:evilfrown: :evilgrin: :hippie: :party: :toast: :bounce: :mad: :puke: :eyes: :smoke: :think: :crazy: :silly: :wtf: :argh: :freak: :dunce: :hangover: :nopity: :hurts: :boring: :spank: :wow: :beer: :grr: :nuke: :scared: :thumbsdown: :thumbsup: :hi: :dem: :kick: :shrug: :puffpiece: :loveya: :donut: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :grouphug: :cry: :pals: :headbang: :yourock: :banghead: :dilemma: :blush: :rant: :sarcasm: :woohoo: :applause: :hide: :popcorn: :rofl: :spray: :patriot: :yoiks:

[Tempest]

80. What is not debatable

Is that Iran's nuclear facilities are nothing like Iraq's was and would survive any non-nuclear attack by Israel or the U.S.

[IndianaGreen]

95. It is also a fact that Iran's mobile-launched missiles can reach Israel

and it is a virtual certainty that Iran will retaliate against her attackers by all means available, including missiles.

The firestorm that Israel generated by her war crimes in Lebanon will pale in comparison to what would happen if Israel's government decides to attack Iran.

[w4rma]

12. White House Softens Iran Nuclear Response

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2349435&page=1
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2472447

A weaker US hand in the Mideast
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0824/p01s02-usfp.html
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2472393

[HongKonger]

27. Iran

Iran has not invaded another country or started a war in over 200 years.

Why are you scared?

[Stockholm]

51. Agreed

One would think that the US public had learned their lessons after the Iraq propaganda.

[The Stranger]

58. You think everyone slept better when Israel bombed Osirik?

Like the Palestinians slept better than in all the decades of their being occupied?

Please.

[leesa]

68. I don't trust Israel with nukes anymore than I trust Iran with nukes.

What's the difference? Both governments are nuts and Israel is the one more interested in grabbing land.

[IndianaGreen]

72. And thanks to Israel, we are now stuck in Iraq

How many times did Bibi Netanyahu appear on American TV to speak of the threat of Iraqi WMDs? How many alerts did AIPAC mail out about Saddam getting "the bomb?" Bush didn't con America into the ill-fated war in Iraq all by his lonesome. He had a lot of help!

The same cast of characters is now trying to frighten us into another military adventure in the Persian Gulf. If Israel is worried about Iran, let her go to war by herself!

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theophilus]

5. They might be signing ours, too, a lot of other folks. It is interesting

how this "might" play out. If any of you are familiar with the John Titor Time Traveler stuff, you might remember that he said that Israel got into trouble because the U.S. kind of stopped protecting them and the M.E. types piled on them. If Israel goes up against Iran, I really don't see how we would get involved. At least not for long. I think there would be a huge outcry, even in the U.S. Now Titor's stuff hasn't proved exactly accurate in the way you view it on the surface, but several things have gotten interesting if you view the "prophecies" from the standpoint of Peak Oil and Climate Change. Anyway, go back and review the Titor stuff.....just for grins.

[Joe Bacon]

33. The Insane Clown Possee running Israel will do this

John Hagee and his fellow Christians are pressuring them to nuke Iran. Hagee wants them to do it so Jesus will come back.

I wonder how Hagee will explain away when Tel Aviv and Jerusalem are irradiated by Pakistani nukes?

[shadowknows69]

73. and probably a lot of ours

this will be a world wide clusterfuck of epic proportions if this goes down.

[Phrogman]

4. "flipped the world the bird"???

Who wrote this crap?

[PCIntern]

10. This is what passes for journalism these days...

Nothing shocks me anymore...

We's in a heap o' trouble in this world. Somebody git the Sherriff...

:evilfrown: :evilgrin: :hippie: :party: :toast: :bounce: :mad: :puke: :eyes: :smoke: :think: :crazy: :silly: :wtf: :argh: :freak: :dunce: :hangover: :nopity: :hurts: :boring: :spank: :wow: :beer: :grr: :nuke: :scared: :thumbsdown: :thumbsup: :hi: :dem: :kick: :shrug: :puffpiece: :loveya: :donut: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :grouphug: :cry: :pals: :headbang: :yourock: :banghead: :dilemma: :blush: :rant: :sarcasm: :woohoo: :applause: :hide: :popcorn: :rofl: :spray: :patriot: :yoiks:

[DoYouEverWonder]

6. Funny how po'd people get anytime someone

compares Bush & Co to Hitler and the Nazis, but it's okay for Israel to compare Iran to Hitler?

Isn't that also an insult to the victims of the Holocaust?

[MannyGoldstein]

9. On DU, It's The Other Way Around

Perhaps I'm just paranoid, but it looks to me that, on DU, any equating of Bush with Hitler is cheered, while any equating of Iran with Hitler is jeered.

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. I have equated Bush to Hitler

and almost everytime, someone will jump on me for it.

For those of us who see the resemblance, I wouldn't exactly call our response cheering. It's more like the horror some Germans must have felt watching Hitler rise to power and knowing there was nothing they could do to stop him.

[MannyGoldstein]

21. Is Iran Less So?

Sorry, I didn't mean that anyone was cheering for Bush - but rather, that the comparison to Hitler was encouraged. Frankly, I don't think that Bush has Hitler's imagination...

The good news is that our Courts have functioned properly and ruled that dictatorship is not permitted by the Constitution. (Our Congress however, utterly utterly abrogated their basic duties here.)

Iran's rulers are similar to Bush - scummy theocratic thugs who love killing others for what they perceive as accomplishing their divine destiny. But Iran does not have an independant judiciary - there's nothing to check the crazies.

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. So how many countries has Iran invaded lately?

What they do within their own country should be their business. When Bush took office, Iran had a 'moderate' government but BushCo refused to support the moderates, preferring to sit back and let the more radical elements gain power again. Iran has a right to rattle their saber and try to defend themselves. I don't think they are much of a threat to us, but we are certainly a major threat to them.

Who's the Nazis here?

[MannyGoldstein]

28. Attacking Israeli Citizens

Iran's proxy, Hezbollah, has fired thousands of missiles aimed at Israeli civilians. Iran and Hezbollah have made no bones about their intention to destroy Israel - do you need quotes? Hezbollah has called for every Jew on the planet to be murdered - do you need quotes? Are you defending this? Do you think that they're just joking?

How do you feel about stoning to death people who engage in extramarital sex? Using cranes to hang homosexuals in the public square? Executing children?

I'm not defending Bush here. But to somehow feel that Iran is a gleaming lamp of goodness is just wrong, wrong wrong.

[DoYouEverWonder]

31. Don't put words in my mouth

Tell me what you think or why you disagree with what I have actually posted. Instead you post what you think, I think, in order to prove your views.

[MannyGoldstein]

47. We'll Have To Agree To Disagree

I did indeed post "what I think" in order to "Tell what think or why disagree with what have actually posted."

Should I post what someone else thinks instead?

I then asked you some simple questions in return:

"How do you feel about stoning to death people who engage in extramarital sex? Using cranes to hang homosexuals in the public square? Executing children?"

I'm guessing that you'd prefer not to dwell on these topics. Let me know if I'm wrong.

[DoYouEverWonder]

53. How do you feel about stoning to death people...

About the same way I feel about people who drop bunker busters and cluster bombs on civilian populations.

[Tempest]

81. Look at the dead count in the last Israel/Hezbollah battles

A hell of lot more Lebanese civilians were killed than Israeli civilians.

Since when is bombing a hotel crowded with refugees not a war crime?



>>But to somehow feel that Iran is a gleaming lamp of goodness is just wrong, wrong wrong.<<

The same can be said of Israel, yet you're doing the very same thing you accuse others of doing (which they're not).

[0007]

99. What decent person will defend Mordechai Vanunu - The Israel

Nuclear Scientist ....and his eighteen years in prison, and now is not allow to leave Israel?

[Occulus]

125. *sigh* looks like I have to do it AGAIN...

"Iran's Bin Ladin's proxy, Hezbollah, Iraq, has fired thousands of missiles aimed at Israeli his own civilians. Iran Bin Ladin and Hezbollah Iraq have made no bones about their intention to destroy Israel Iraq's neighbors - do you need quotes? Hezbollah Iraq has called for every Jew Westerner on the planet to be murdered - do you need quotes? Are you defending this? Do you think that they're just joking?

How do you feel about stoning to death people who engage in extramarital sex? Using cranes to hang homosexuals in the public square? Executing children?

I'm not defending Bush Clinton here. But to somehow feel that Iran Bin Ladin is a gleaming lamp of goodness is just wrong, wrong wrong."

Sound familiar? It should. The names are changed, but the substance is identical.

It doesn't take a whole lot of changes in what you said for it to sound an awful lot like what's been said before in the runup to a different (and ongoing) war. I would suggest you ratchet down the rhetoric if you expect to be believed- you're at a little over an 8 right now; we need you at about a 3.

[FormerDem06]

37. Iran is currently shelling Kurdish towns in Northern Iraq, does that count

http://www.institutkurde.org/en/afp/archives/?src=news/060430101423.bca6lzp1.xml

[enigma000]

42. Kurds don't count - they never did. n/t

[barb162]

124. Isn't that something? Kurds? Darfur? Congo? Who cares?

[enigma000]

141. Only Lebanese and Palestinians count

The Kurds are pro-American and the victims in Darfur, for the most part, are black Africans. That's life. Sucks bad.

[MannyGoldstein]

48. I Would Think So

But it probably doesn't count for most DU posters... we'll hear that the Kurds are just warmongering proxies for the US, sworn to attack a just and peace-loving Iran that's minding its own business...

[DoYouEverWonder]

60. That is mostly a Turkish action

does that count to?

[Tempest]

82. No, it doesn't

Iran's shelling is in response to PKK's attacks in Iranian cities.

[IndianaGreen]

100. Turkey is doing the same thing--going after Kurdish terrorists

The CIA is funding Kurdish terrorism against Iran. This is not the first time the CIA used the Kurds to get Iran to "behave." Back in the 1960s the Shah began to show symptoms of independence. The CIA stirred up the Iranian Kurds to do some mischief. The Shah became docile again. The CIA ditched the Kurds.

[Fovea]

126. It strikes me that the Kurds

are in something like the position the serbian nationalists were in right before WW1, and their terrorism could have provoked the same outcome as did the black hand in Sarajevo, 1914, with one major exception, the Kurds seem to have no friends.

Now, Hezbullah, OTOH has lots of friends, many of whom are well armed.

[IndianaGreen]

133. Kurds pissed off their potential allies in Iraq

when they came kicking people out of their homes and lands on the pretext that these had been taken from the Kurds by the Saddam regime. In the process, Kurds made enemies of Shias, Turkmen, and Sunis.

This would be like having the Miami Cubans return to Cuba and trying to take back all the property they once owned from the current occupants. Not a good way to make friends.

Kurdish nationalism will not be tolerated by Turkey, Iran, Iraq, or Syria.

You are right, they have no friends, and they had a hand in doing that!

[IndianaGreen]

118. Turkey just bombed Kurdish positions in Northern Iraq!

just posted in LBN:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2473189

[barb162]

113. Iran had a theocracy when Bush took office

and it was only "moderate" from the standpoint that the current prez is a complete sociopath

[barb162]

114. Do you remember the Iran / Iraq war?

Is and has Iran been supplying arms to terrorists?

[Solon]

139. First, the US played both sides off each other...

We armed one side with WMDs, and the other side with WMDs, hence the Iran/Contra scandal. In addition, at around the same time, we supplied the Mujhadeen, a terrorist group, with weapons, etc. etc. In other words, we are just as guilty as Iran, perhaps moreso because our terrorists ended up turning on us, hence 9/11.

[springhill]

74. How in the world is Iran like Hitler's Germany?

Germany was a world power with the ability to invade and occupy many countries at one time; and they did just that. Who has Iran invaded lately? Just because a leader is bellacose does not mean they will act on what they say. Actions speak louder than words. However, the United States, well that's another story. How many countries over the years have we invaded and/or occupied? Seems to me we have much more in common with Hitler than Iran.

[IndianaGreen]

76. Israel is the one that invaded her neighbors

Israel was the one that bombed Beirut just as the Luftwaffe bombed Warsaw. Seems like the Nazi Germany analogy would apply more to Israel's foreign policy than it would to Iran.

Good points, springhill!

[plasticsundance]

17. Why don't you give us the details ...

how Ahmadinejad compares to Hitler.

[MannyGoldstein]

26. Same Way Bush Does

I'm not saying that Hitler and Ahmadinejad are identical - just that comparing him to Hitler is at least as valid as comparing Bush to Hitler.

Ahmadinejad:

- Wants to buld Iran's capacity for offensive warfare.
- Wants to destroy Israel.
- His proxy (Hezbollah), who Irans has supplied with >10,000 missiles, has called for all Jews worldwide to be murdered.
- Oversees the execution homosexuals, even children
And so forth.

[plasticsundance]

52. Let's look at your points ... shall we.

Ahmadinejad:

- "Wants to build Iran's capacity for offensive warfare."

No he doesn't. He wants to build Iran's military to a capacity it can face a threat from Israel. Evidence of this is in the topic of this thread: "Israel may 'go it alone' against Iran."

Ahmadinejad has not invaded any other nation, but the US and Israel has.


- "Wants to destroy Israel."

No he doesn't. He wants the downfall of the Zionist government in Israel and its movement, because he sees the Zionist movement in Israel as being responsible for occupying Palestinian land and the Golan Heights. Israel is also bulldozing down Palestinian houses and targeting Arab civilians in Lebanon indiscriminately.

Photo story: Israeli bulldozer driver murders American peace activist


- "His proxy (Hezbollah), who Irans has supplied with >10,000 missiles, has called for all Jews worldwide to be murdered.

Forget the rhetoric. Hamas was ready to reconsider its language against Israel, until Israel invaded Gaza again. The latest outbreak of hostilities between Hezbollah and Israel came about when Nasrallah stated that Israel should discuss a prisoner exchange, and if not, he would attack. Israel declined his proposition, and Hezbollah made good on its word and attacked.


- "Oversees the execution homosexuals, even children
And so forth.

Iran could do better in the human rights department, but Israel also detains and imprisons Palestinian children ... without charges in some cases. The US has the highest rate of imprisonment in the entire world.

[The Stranger]

61. Excellent post.

Very well struck indeed.

[converted_democrat]

67. Good points.. n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

77. Sorry, We Disagree

1. Ahmadinajad has attacked Israel via Iran's proxy, Hezbollah. Hezbollah has launched thousands of missiles aimed at Israeli civilians, and both Iran and Hezbollah have clearly and repeatedly stated that their goal is to wipe Israel off of the map. (Hezbollah has also called for the murder of every Jew on Earth.) I'd call this an attack - I guess you call it something else.

2. "Forget the rhetoric". That's just what folks said in pre-Nazi Germany. As a person who lost many family members to Hitler's camps and even more to Stalin's NKVD, I'll choose to recognize that folks who say they want to kill me, and are accumulating power and weapons, and regularly using these weapons to kill others, are probably serious.

3. Yes, the US is bad w/ regard to human rights - I even point that out in my blog. We The People have the right to change that, and many other things - shame on us for not.

All that the Founding Fathers ever hoped to do via the Constitution was to preserve The People's right to institute a new government via a peaceful and fair voting process. Iran does not have this. There is a clear mechanism for peaceful change in the US. There is no such circumstance in Iran.

[plasticsundance]

86. Well ... I have to continue to disagree

You state:

"Ahmadinajad has attacked Israel via Iran's proxy, Hezbollah.

You state this, but you provide no source or link that can verify it, so I think it should be dismissed as propaganda. The timeline of events are very clear in this matter, which I posted in my previous post. You go on ...

"Hezbollah has launched thousands of missiles aimed at Israeli civilians"

First off, they were rockets, not missiles. Israel is the one that has the precision guided missiles, which it used against civilian targets. The weapon that brought down the Israeli gun boat might have been a missile. I'm not sure. However, on July 12th, Hezbollah responded to Israel rejecting the idea of a prisoner exchange by firing a dozen or more rockets at the Israeli outposts in the Shebaa farms lands and the city of Shlomi. Interestingly, Forbes Magazine online first reported the Israeli prisoners were captured inside Lebanon.

You wrote:

"Forget the rhetoric". That's just what folks said in pre-Nazi Germany. As a person who lost many family members to Hitler's camps and even more to Stalin's NKVD, I'll choose to recognize that folks who say they want to kill me, and are accumulating power and weapons, and regularly using these weapons to kill others, are probably serious.

I regret and sorry that you lost family members to one of the most brutal war criminal regimes in history, but you're being unfair in taking my words out of context. I listed that Israel is bulldozing down Palestinian houses, and they also cut off water to the Palestinian people. They do not allow the Palestinian to trade on the global markets. Israel has been known to bulldoze houses with people inside them, even elderly people. They arrest and hold Palestinians ... including children ... some times without charges. Some Palestinians do not know what has happened to their family members. It's really too bad that the US MSM does not go and look at some of the conditions in Gaza. Israel also arrests elected officials. Last month, Israel violated Syrian air space by flying a fighter jet over the president of Syria's residence. This was an unprovoked violation of another sovereign nation. The Lebanon civilians indiscriminately targeted by Israel were not Hezbollah.

Israel is guilty of war crimes ... pure and simple. It has also nurtured the hate that many in the ME have towards it.

If we want to have an honest discussion, then you should at least address the specifics in my post. In addition, just because you feel justified in doing something, doesn't mean it is a wise choice.

Notice ... I haven't accused you of anything, but rather, the state of Israel. There is a difference.

[stepnw1f]

89. Great Job at Snuffing out the Pro-War Talking Points

What a bunch of transparent propagandists.

[Phx_Dem]

79. Ahmadinejad wants Israel gone

he has stated this several time recently.

Your assertion that Iran is developing nukes to defend itself from Israel is laughable, Israel has sought peace agreements with all of it's neighbors through the years, several (Egypt, Jordan) have reached agreements with Israel.

Forget the rhetoric? Why? Do words mean nothing to you?

[Tempest]

83. No he doesn't

He wants the aggressive Israeli government gone.

Stop reading the American translations and get the information from the source.


The assertion that Iran is developing nuclear weapons is wrong and laughable. The U.N. has thoroughly inspected every one of Iran's nuclear facilities and reported there was no evidence of a weapons program.

[Phx_Dem]

84. from Al-Jazeera

Iran denies IAEA access to nuclear site
http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=12184

Last year, Ahmadinejad caused an international outcry by calling for Israel to “be wiped off the map” and by saying that the Holocaust is a “myth”.

"If there is serious doubt over the Holocaust, there is no doubt over the catastrophe and Holocaust being faced by the Palestinians," Ahmadinejad said.

"I tell the governments who support Zionism to ... let the migrants (Jews) return to their countries of origin. If you think you owe them something, give them some of your land," he said.

http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11064

Even Al-Jazeera has the facts right, makes me wonder where you are getting your info.

[Tempest]

88. Your cite is aljazeera .COM, genius and not aljazeera.NET

Aljazeera.com is not in any way associated or affiliated with aljazeera.net.

The COM web site is an American creation designed to fool people like you.

How many times does this have to be pointed out?

[stepnw1f]

90. oh...snap! Kick! (nt)

[Tempest]

93. You'd think he would have figured it out

When he saw it the site was in ENGLISH!

Jeesh, what passes for intelligence these days...

[Phx_Dem]

98. I have figured out one thing

You have a problem with the truth.

[Tempest]

102. I stand corrected on al jazeera

But not on the poorly English translated statements.

Non-American Arabic speaking translators have dismissed the English translations and shown how they were wrong and distorted. The corrected translations were posted here on DU.

[Phx_Dem]

136. I don't doubt that there are translation problems

For what it's worth, I did not intend to use aljazeera.com as a source, but I was in a hurry and did not notice. In one of my replies I included sources from the .net site, regarding his stmts.

Ahmadinejad should clarify his stmts so there is no confusion.

[Phx_Dem]

97. al-jazeera.com

Copyright 1992-2006 Al Jazeera Publishing, Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Aljazeera.com is a registered and protected mark of Al Jazeera Publishing

[Englander]

119. About Aljazeera.com

Aljazeera Publishing owns and operates Aljazeera.com, bringing you the world today. Aljazeera Publishing is an independent media organisation established in 1992 in London. Aljazeera.com has a particular focus on events and issues in the Middle East covering major developments presenting facts as they happen.

Important note: Aljazeera Publishing and Aljazeera.com are not associated with the controversial Arabic Satellite Channel known as Jazeera Space Channel TV (also known as Al-Jazeera Satellite Channel) station whose website is Aljazeera.net.

Aljazeera Publishing disassociates itself from the views, opinions and broadcasts of Jazeera Space Channel TV station.

http://www.aljazeera.com/about.asp

D'oh!

The *actual* al-Jazeera, the tv one, will have this picture on any web-page;



aljazeera.com = fake, aljazeera.net = genuine article.

[barb162]

112. actually, foul ball ... check post 111

[Phx_Dem]

96. Nice try

Copyright 1992-2006 Al Jazeera Publishing, Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Aljazeera.com is a registered and protected mark of Al Jazeera Publishing

Iran: Eliminate Israel to end conflict
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4CC21D25-66EA-45BC-B627-168C47D936CF.htm

Ahmadinejad, an ultra-conservative whose election victory in June took many observers by surprise, has previously labelled the Jewish state as a "tumour" that should be "wiped off the map" or moved out of the Middle East, perhaps to Alaska.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/374EC486-CA69-43C0-9313-C1057E17BDC2.htm
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/882BF23B-0D16-4C1F-9983-3428DDB96A18.htm


Speaking on Thursday in Makka, Saudi Arabia, where he was attending a summit of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, he said that if Germany and Austria believed that Jews were massacred during the second world war, a state of Israel should be established on their soil.
....

Then because the Jews have been oppressed during the second world war, therefore they have to support the occupying regime of Quds . We do not accept this."

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/075AC594-DD63-4258-AF8D-B36E32B60645.htm

[barb162]

120. It's amazing how many people refuse to deal with

basic news reported world-wide

[Phx_Dem]

146. No kidding

Kind of ironic in a sad pathetic way.

:hi: we have to stop meeting like this.

[barb162]

111. Okay Genius, aljazeera .NET says he wants to wipe Israel off map

Ahmadinejad: Wipe Israel off map

Wednesday 26 October 2005, 19:03 Makka Time, 16:03 GMT

Ahmadinejad addressed students at a conference


Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has openly called for Israel to be wiped off the map.
snip
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E6BF77-6F91-46EE-A4B5-A3CE0E9957EA.htm

How many times does this jerk have to say the same thing before you get the picture

[QuestionAll...]

144. omg! I didn't know that. thanks so much

for pointing that out.

holy shit.

[cool user name]

148. Ouch!

n/t

[plasticsundance]

94. This is what Ahmadinejad said ...

"Imam said: 'This regime that is occupying Qods must be eliminated from the pages of history.' This sentence is very wise. The issue of Palestine is not an issue on which we can compromise."

Now go to the following link and read the context of what he said:

Extended excerpt - what Ahmadinejad actually said

As for Egypt and Jordan, Israel isn't occupying their land. According to Seymour Hersh, Syria was ready to discuss the question of the Golan Heights with Israel, but the US told Israel not to.

As for the meaning of words, I also look at actions and place things in historical context. I find it strange that Ahmadinejad is quoting Khomeini above, but Israel had no problems selling US military arms to Iran during the 80's.

[Phx_Dem]

101. This translation sounds SO much better

Do you support the return of the Caliphate?

[plasticsundance]

121. Get back with me when you want to have a honest discussion

You haven't addressed anything I placed in my posts. Instead you attempt to insult my intelligence with asking a silly question.

[Phx_Dem]

140. OK

"this occupying country is in reality a staging ground to dominate the islamic world"

Utter bullshit.

"...there would come a day when one would see a world without the US and zionism"

More bullshit.

"our dear imam ordered that the occupiying regime in J-lem be WIPED OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH. THIS WAS A VERY WISE STMT"

These quotes are from YOUR LINK.

http://www.govinfo.bnet-newmedia.co.uk/facts_Articles.php?IDVal=24

[stepnw1f]

123. Thank You plasticsundance

It's good to see real info on here. I'm really sick of the propaganda floating around.

[Phx_Dem]

145. Real info for you

"Our dear imam ordered that the occupying regime in J-lem be wiped off the face of the earth. This was a very wise statement.....Whoever accepts the existence of this entity has signed onto the defeat of the islamic world"

http://www.govinfo.bnet-newmedia.co.uk/facts_Articles.php?IDVal=24

[mmonk]

134. All fine and good except

wanting the Israeli government to fall and then moved is pretty much the line that Israel doesn't have the right to exist (except far away?).

[The Stranger]

59. Because equating Iran with Hitler is pro-war propaganda - DU sees thru it.

The warmongering, hate-mongering Neoconservatives have even succeeded in getting the imbecile to call them "Islamofascists" -- which is an oxymoron spoken by a moron.

[bloom]

64. You're right - It pretty much negates that argument.

As if Iran is the country going around invading/bombing other countries like the US and now Israel are doing.

Very Orwellian like.

[barb162]

107. I don't see Bush rounding up innocent people and gassing

them and then pulling the gold out of their teeth AND and burning them in crematoria on a systematic basis.

[IndianaGreen]

122. The Nazis did not start gassing people until WWII began

Bush has already done many of the things the Nazis did, an Enabling Act (PATRIOT), a concentration camp (Guantanamo), torture, holding people indefinitely without charges, etc.

Bush has also committed war crimes and crimes against peace, just as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan did, and if Bush gets to use the tactical nukes he wants to use, he will go down in history as a bigger mass murderer than Hitler.

[barb162]

129. The Us government would never

start gassing people and the other things involving the camps as Germany did. Of this I have NO doubt.

War crimes are a very interesting topic. For every My Lai, I bet there have been ten times worse on the other side. Think of how the US never really heard much about atrocities by North Vietnam, like beating or killing US POWs or SOuth Vietnamese. But MyLai was on the front pages for a long time as it should have been. But I wonder why atrocities from others don't make the front pages. And I wonder if the atrocities N. Viertnam did made the front pages of their papers. Japan still doesn't teach in their schools how they fucked over China during WW2

[IndianaGreen]

138. Really? Didn't the US conduct Nazi-type experiments on civilians

like when they injected plutonium in patients to see the effects of radiation, without telling the patients of course, or the time they allowed syphilis to progress in patients to see what would happen if it went untreated (the patients were never told they were given placebos). There are countless of such incidents in which our government did the sort of experiments that Joseph Mengele would have died to have done.

[barb162]

147. Yeah, medical experiments from decades ago

where the researchers committed terrible crimes. But don't tell me gold is being pulled out of teeth and people are being thrown into ovens on a systematic basis because of their ethnic or religious background.

[bdamomma]

131. no bush just bombs the hell out of a country

and has torture prisons.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HereSince1628]

14. What's this talk of Bush waiting until his term is nearly over?

I've heard this several times in the past couple of weeks.

What are the idiots who write this stuff thinking?

Bush is ham-strung by the possibility of losing at least one house of Congress. He isn't going to make any moves until he is sure he has a red Congress in bed with him...he doesn't really want to run-up anymore international crimes until he thinks he can get amnesty from the rubber-stamps. But if the r's keep control of both houses, Bush is free to unleash more misery on the middle east and nothing would seem to be keeping him waiting until mid-summer 2008.

[DoYouEverWonder]

18. It means their plans for Armageddon are off

The little test run in Lebanon was a failure and the Israelis don't feel like being lambs for the slaughter just to satisfy Bush's base.

[IndianaGreen]

25. Sounds like "they" want to keep Bush in the White House beyond 2008

A conveniently scheduled terrorist "attack" could postpone the Presidential elections indefinitely. The American people have shown a tendency to surrender their liberties at the drop of hat, if properly frightened, so why not dispense with the elections altogether?

I find it disturbing that the Jerusalem Post, a non-Israeli owned newspaper whose editor is an American conservative, is making such a fuzz about Bush being "term limited." What dastardly deed are the neocons cooking now?

[sofa king]

132. I'm with you on that one.

Weatherwise, the time to invade southern Iran (and believe me, we don't want to invade anything but the oil and gas rich territories of Khuzestan and Bushehr) is in fall and winter, when daytime temperatures are manageable.

Politically, the time to invade Iran is just after the November election thefts, which would also place the timetable for invasion as this fall and winter. Just like Iraq was knocked over early in the 108th Congress to avoid antiwar fallout, so too will Iran be knocked over early in the 110th Congress or even better, on the watch of the lame-duck, GOP-controlled 109th.

If anything an invasion of Iran could be touched off even before the elections in an effort to make it another khaki election and prey on the jingoistic automatic response of many Americans.

There are many other factors which point in the direction of a late fall, 2006 invasion:

* Israel has partially declawed Hezbollah and more importantly, destroyed the Lebanese infrastructure Syria would need to counterinvade Israel through that country. The massing of Israeli troops in that sector also forces Syria to keep their own troops in the area, just in case. (I know it seems unlikely that Syria would want to or is even capable of invading Iraq or Israel at this time, but that's what the Lebanese operation looks like to me.) Also, the Syrians are in the process of upgrading their AA defenses, but haven't completed them yet, which means that for the time being Israeli aircraft can overfly Syria with impunity, but that opportunity may end soon.

* The U.S. has completed twelve to fourteen permanent concrete bases in Iraq, which will allow a skeleton force of troops to hole up while the bulk of our offensive power is redirected to Iran. Yes, Iraq will go to hell, but think of the profits Halliburton will reap for not repairing the damage later on.

* Marines are being recalled to duty--a lot more than the 2500 or so that are being reported, according to some sources. There are at least two targets which might best be confronted with amphibious operations (the Marines' specialty): The nuclear facilities at Bushehr, and the Iranian military facilities opposite the Straights of Hormuz.

* Far more important than its nuclear weapons, Iran is approaching perfection of a rocket powered torpedo and a stealthy replacement for the Silkworm anti-ship missles--which are already feared. Thus, Iran really is capable of becoming a credible threat to the U.S., but it's a threat to U.S. power projection, not U.S. citizens.

* The British are hoping to leave Basra within a year. The Brits have a special relationship with the Basra business community and probably have the best chance of keeping that area pacified. The Americans will have to move through Basra to invade Khuzestan. Previously I've said that we'll know when the war is going to start by watching British troops get the hell out of the way, but now I'm thinking maybe they'll be the ones who cover the Americans' overland logistical tail, which begins in Kuwait and must pass through the Shatt al Arab. That would require the U.K.'s active participation, but judging by how hard Tony Blair is working to swing the American elections with his bullshit terrorist warnings, I think it's safe to say he's okay with that.

* The Iranians recently moved their medium of oil exchange from dollars to euros, just as Saddam Hussein did prior to our invasion of his country. The Iranians have also recently completed sweetheart oil deals with China. An invasion of Iran is guaranteed to reap huge profits for American oil interests and domestic producers by further restricting worldwide supply. China can be easily pacified at any time by allowing them to reoccupy Taiwan--and don't think Georgie wouldn't do that. He doesn't even know where Taiwan is.

My guess is that the invasion is timed to coincide exactly with the November 6 elections, so that election irregularities will be immediately swept under the rug by war coverage.

[bluestateguy]

16. And I'll be right here on the couch while they do that...

watching the baseball playoffs in October.

[GeorgeGist]

19. Speaking of flipping the world the bird...

But, heh, heh, we're the good guys.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

20. Like we didn't know this was coming. n/t

[Totallybushed]

23. The whole world

has an enormous stake in Iran's decisions about its nuclear programs, Israel more than most.

In the end, they probably will go it alone, if they are forced to it. Their survival as a nation is at stake, and you really can't expect them to compromise about that.

[ShortnFiery]

34. Yes, if they are so stupid, Israel should go it ALONE ...

What the frightened USA sheeple don't realize is that The World is EONS MORE scared sh*tless of the USA USING "the bomb" (or so called tactical nukes) than Iran possibly developing one.

Anyone who has traveled out of this Country KNOWS that it is The USA that's considered The Biggest, Bad Ass TERRORIST in the World Community. :nuke:

Wake up to 1984 American People. Please!?!

[Totallybushed]

62. OK n/t

[Totallybushed]

75. I thought maybe

I should expound a little on my previous comment.

I'm not going to argue with you that the US is a danger with the current regime in charge. But, just because they are wrong, that DOES NOT MAKE IRAN RIGHT. Iran (their leaders, not all of the people) really do want to kill us, and truly want to destroy Israel and kill all the Jews there. You really cannot expect Israel (or the United States, either for that matter) to just sit back and let themselves be killed just because they may have made some mistakes in the past.

That just doesn't comport with human nature, and will not happen. When it is necessary in their view, Israel will tell the world where to stick their opinion, and will do what they think is necessary. The world will whine about "war criminals", and do what they always do: NOTHING. World opinion has <i>never</i> stopped an aggressor yet, not the Nazis, not the Soviet Union, not the USA, not Israel, not Hezbollah or Hamas, and not Iran.

You don't have to like it, Lord knows that I don't, but wishing it were different won't make it so. Rejoin the reality-based community.

[wakeme2008]

24. While Iran does not have nucs they do have biological weapons and

missiles. Israel would be signing their own death warrant attacking Iran. If Israel attacked first, nobody would blame Iran for lowering the population of Israel.

[PCIntern]

63. "Nobody"?

I would...let's see, that makes one. Think we could find a few more...?

:evilfrown: :evilgrin: :hippie: :party: :toast: :bounce: :mad: :puke: :eyes: :smoke: :think: :crazy: :silly: :wtf: :argh: :freak: :dunce: :hangover: :nopity: :hurts: :boring: :spank: :wow: :beer: :grr: :nuke: :scared: :thumbsdown: :thumbsup: :hi: :dem: :kick: :shrug: :puffpiece: :loveya: :donut: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :grouphug: :cry: :pals: :headbang: :yourock: :banghead: :dilemma: :blush: :rant: :sarcasm: :woohoo: :applause: :hide: :popcorn: :rofl: :spray: :patriot: :yoiks:

[wakeme2008]

104. LOL but you are a nobody...

Iran has every right to defend itself... If Israel attacks then they can and will fight back.

[barb162]

117. Well then I suspect Israel would hit them with nukes

and no one could blame Israel for lowering Iran's population. Biologicals, nukes... anything goes.

[wakeme2008]

130. the one that strikes first gets blamed

RIGHT...

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumpy]

108. Oh Lord, Israeli's 'dancing a jig'.

x

[xchrom]

32. the u.s. will do it -- not israel.

i don't care if the u.s. admin is democratic or republick.

if there is going to be military action commited against iran -- it will be the u.s. -- or through pressure -- nato that will commit to the action.

[ShortnFiery]

36. Then those old bloated USA arm chair warriors, better NOT depend on

my beloved children to serve as THEIR cannon fodder to be "sucked into the intake" of The Draft! NO WAY, NO HOW, Not AGAIN! :grr:

[xchrom]

40. i would agree -- but it is the reality we are

faced with.

there is simply nothing about the status quo in either party that is going to have israel walk out on that branch alone.

there is no political will in d.c. to re-examine our relationships in the middle east -- either historically or now.

[ShortnFiery]

44. No, we are THE PEOPLE, these evil representatives SERVE US!

Nope, it's time to clean house come November and kick the warmongers out. Nothing will totally put a tail spin on our economy toward Depression than a foolhardy bombing of IRAN.

NO, They Answer to US. Just like during Vietnam, if they don't have the "cannon fodder" they will NOT be able to wage war (any more than aerial).

Let's not give them "the cannon fodder" for their personal wealth accumulation and twisted entertainment?

[xchrom]

54. hey -- i'm on your side.

but i'm not whispering in the ear of the u.s. elite - and neither are you.

even if we ''sweep'' -- and we won't though we are going to make considerable gains -- and probably control the house -- there are all those people in control that you and i never, ever come in contact with.

the leadership in the pentagon or life-long hawks in civil service -- or even guys like john kerry.

they are not going to re-think -- or at least not enough -- to let israel make a strike on iran.

[ShortnFiery]

65. I have faith in the Reality Based Military Career Officers and NCOs...

As a last stop gap measure, even some of the pompous Generals will tell pResident Cheney, "Sir, No Sir."

I firmly believe that there will be an exodus of General and Field Officer resignations prior to any strike on Iran.

Now I don't know if it will make a difference in these sick and twisted neo-con's decision making. However, WHEN The Draft is implemented they will discover that even the frightened American People will NOT offer up their children to be sucked into the intake of The USA's Military Industrial WAR MACHINE. It will stop then, but sadly our economy will be spiraling toward a Depression no less severe than what The Country experienced during the 1930s.

I hold on to hope because there are Career Military Officers and NCOs who UNDERSTAND that bombing Iran will not achieve anything approaching our goal. If anything, the angry Iranian people will become increasingly more Nationalistic. If we KILL indiscriminately through bombing, you can damn well bet the farm that they WILL WANT TO KILL US. Not now! But if we choose to follow through with aerial bombing of Iran. :(

Hope springs eternal ... what alternative do we have?

[IndianaGreen]

39. I am sure there are Americans just itching to lose a third war

They already lost the war in Iraq, and are on the verge of losing Afghanistan, so why not start a third war? Iran can give the US more than just a bloody nose. Iran can bring the entire American economy down by shutting down the Hormuz Strait, and our troops in Iraq may have to flee for their lives in the face of Shia retaliation.

Bring it on!

[xchrom]

56. well, that may be the outcome we are looking at.

because the u.s HATES the ''far-left'' we don't bring to the table the intellect to analyse our position enough.

that's all i'm saying.

the u.s. elites aren't going to display the kind of thinking that we need right now.

and that's whether they are liberal or conservative.

[Peace Patriot]

35. Israel needs to apologize to the Iranian people for helping to destroy

their democracy in 1954, and inflicting them with 25 years of torture and oppression under the horrible Shah--the western policy that drove these potentially progressive Muslims into the arms of the mullahs. That will defuse the situation. Then Israel needs to join with Iran in throwing the Bush Cartel out of the Middle East.

John Lennon told us to "Imagine." That's what I'm doing. Nothing like a common threat to unite former enemies. There is nothing more dangerous to the Middle East region than the Bush junta. And there is nothing more dangerous to Israel that its alliance with this universally despised regime. Imagine having the Bush Cartel as your only friend. Israel needs to think in terms of regional security and the common good of all Middle Eastern peoples. It's been an upstart medieval fortress bristling with armaments for too long. It's in an untenable situation which militarism cannot solve--ESPECIALLY militarism drive by oil and war profiteers. The religious/cultural dispute between Jews and Muslims is the one that needs to be addressed. It CANNOT be addressed militarily. It MUST be addressed peacefully--or else the three Father God religions that have stoked this crisis will destroy all life on earth. It's time for Israel, as the home of the FIRST Father God religion to show some LEADERSHIP. Do we have to rid ourselves of all three of these religions in order to survive--or are we going to face the core problem: the imbalance of worshiping God as a Man? worship of the brute power to kill? worship of the organized power of war? worship of guns? worship of bombs? worship of torture and punishment? Far better to worship the Fertility Goddess! Look deep, Jews, Christians and Muslims! Look deep at your origins, at your imbalance! STOP FIGHTING and address the REAL problem--your worship of YOURSELVES!

[ShortnFiery]

38. Well put ! Peace is THE Way!

I fully concur. Here here! :toast:

[enigma000]

41. What did Israel have to do with the overthrow of the Iranian Gov't?

[IndianaGreen]

43. Israel is a "devoted" friend of America

like Lieberman is a "devoted" Democrat. The Israel Lobby played a shameful role in the neocons' propaganda to get us into a war with Iraq. It appears that the same players are now trying to push our country into a war with Iran.

Ultimately it is the children of the working class in America and Israel that must pay with their blood the folly of our leaders, while the children of the elites in America and Israel remain safe close to home.

[cali]

142. Oh for fuck's sake

nothing you wrote has anything to do with the claim made by the poster you're responding to, that Israel was complicit in the 1953 assassination of Mossadegh.

As for the rest of your post- the comparison between Lieberman/dems and Israel/Us, is just fallacious. First of all, Lieberman has been a dem for dozens of years, and has, like it or not, a pretty solid dem record, in so far as supporting many of the positions dems hold dear. Now, I'm not a fan of Lieberman's, but facts are facts. And them's the facts. Secondly, relationships between states are complex. You do no favors by using such broadbrush strokes.

[cali]

55. Nothing I've ever read

implicates the Israelis in the overthrow of PM Mossadegh. If you have any evidence from a reputable source, that does implicate Israel, kindly provide it. Until then, I'm happy to tell you that your post is bullshit- the entire thing is sophmoric to the nth degree.

[MrPrax]

45. The script went off the rails...

Usually between these two countries one expects that the 'evil' guys' rhetoric to be over the top, but I hope everyone notes, especially you supporters, of what Israel really thinks of everyone in the world -- mere degrees separate the 'terrorist' from the Bush Administration when it comes to the hate of Zionism.

Discussing peace is Appeasement
International Law is Appeasement
Opposition to Israel's foreign policy is Appeasement
Everything is Appeasement

Note: Iran is still willing to negotiate...Israel never and it doesn't matter what the issue it -- the script never changes whether it be children killed on a beach or high-level multi-national negotiations--everyone is out to get Israel.

[HuffleClaw]

46. again, OLD propaganda. we've been hearing this for over a year.

*yawn*

[Double T]

50. diplomacy, negotiations, talk, talk, and more talk are the ONLY answer....

for this potentially catastrophic situation. The biggest problems are the neocon war hawks that continually jack up the rhetoric (ie. axis of evil) and serve the prosperity of the military industrial complex. Israel will ONLY act with the FULL BACKING AND SUPPORT OF THE USA. The world needs peace and the world needs energy and those two (2) issues should be the main focus; NOT war and military actions.

[leesa]

66. Yeah, right. When have they ever done anything on their own?

They want war so bad they should have to fight it alone. Iran isn't doing anything here.

[ShortnFiery]

70. And even with the Most Hopeful Estimates they are THREE YEARS

away from a viable nuclear weapon. So yes, just like General (Ret) Gard stated on C-SPAN Journal this A.M. we have plenty of time to negotiate. To default to bombing at this early stage is ABSURD ... absolutely bat sh*t crazy wet dream fulfillment of the Ruling USA Neo-Conservatives. :crazy:

[xultar]

85. The Israeli Government is officially as STOOPID as ours.

I hope they do so I can wear my rapture outfit.

[IndianaGreen]

92. Too bad Sharon had a stroke

I seriously doubt that Sharon would have overreacted like Olmert and Peretz did in Lebanon. I doubt that anyone would have dared to kidnap IDF soldiers if Sharon was sitting in his large PM chair.

Sharon was a war hero and combat veteran that, while he did do bad things as PM, he also knew the limits to military power. Olmert and Peretz are nothing but amateurs!

[PCIntern]

137. Well...

so many people here take pride in 'knowing' that the Israelis are 'doomed to failure' once again. We'll see.

:evilfrown: :evilgrin: :hippie: :party: :toast: :bounce: :mad: :puke: :eyes: :smoke: :think: :crazy: :silly: :wtf: :argh: :freak: :dunce: :hangover: :nopity: :hurts: :boring: :spank: :wow: :beer: :grr: :nuke: :scared: :thumbsdown: :thumbsup: :hi: :dem: :kick: :shrug: :puffpiece: :loveya: :donut: :tinfoilhat: :hug: :grouphug: :cry: :pals: :headbang: :yourock: :banghead: :dilemma: :blush: :rant: :sarcasm: :woohoo: :applause: :hide: :popcorn: :rofl:

[Marrak]

143. Dude...

The U.S. needs to reestablish its relationship with Israel! The U.S. needs to assert itself as the power and Israel, well it's an "extremely trouble-some ally", but you are not the power. Israeli paranoia is the tail wanking the dog. The U.S. is in desperate "need to create a situation where moderate Muslims can express support for the United States without being laughed off the block".

<http://harpers.org/sb-seven-michael-scheuer-1156277744.html>

[Robert E Lee]

110. Well, somebody's got to do it.

[stepnw1f]

127. yup... not you

easy to say sitting behind your computer. And "have to"...? You are aware that most info we here in the US get is bullshit propaganda to start another war like we did with Iraq? No? Then you haven't been paying attention. And oh... if Israel does attack Iran, how much you want to bet our soldiers get caught up in the cross fire?

[bdamomma]

135. aren't our soldiers already caught in the crossfire now in Iraq.

[acmavm]

116. Go it alone? Are they going to get their stock of bombs and

bullets FROM THE BUSH** ADMIN before the attack so the can claim they did it 'alone'?

How does that work?