Who's Anti-Semitic......A Fascinating Read...no matter who you are......

[KoKo]

An excellent read for folks who want to see all sides...
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/3444

Who's Anti-Semitic?

One of the more unsettling aspects of the broad support in Washington for the use of Israel as U.S. proxy in the Middle East is how closely it corresponds to historic anti-Semitism. In past centuries, the ruling elite of European countries would, in return for granting limited religious and cultural autonomy, established certain individuals in the Jewish community as the visible agents of the oppressive social order, such as tax collectors and moneylenders. When the population threatened to rise up against the ruling elite, the rulers could then blame the Jews, channeling the wrath of an exploited people against convenient scapegoats. The resulting pogroms and waves of repression took place throughout the Jewish Diaspora.

Zionists hoped to break this cycle by creating a Jewish nation-state where Jews would no longer be dependent on the ruling elite of a given country. The tragic irony is that, by using Israel to wage proxy war to promote U.S. hegemony in the region, this cycle is being perpetuated on a global scale. This latest orgy of American-inspired Israeli violence has led to a dangerous upsurge in anti-Semitism in the Middle East and throughout the world. In the United States, many critics of U.S. policy are blaming “the Zionist lobby” for U.S. support for Israel's attacks on Lebanon rather than the Bush administration and its bipartisan congressional allies who encouraged Israel to wage war on Lebanon in the first place.

Unfortunately, most anti-war protests in major U.S. cities have targeted the Israeli consulate rather than U.S. government buildings. By contrast, during the 1980s, protests against the U.S.-backed violence in El Salvador rarely targeted Salvadoran consulates, but instead more appropriately took place outside federal offices and arms depots, recognizing that the violence would not be taking place without U.S. weapons and support.

Israel is no banana republic. Even those like Hersh who recognize the key role of the Bush administration in goading Israel to attack Lebanon emphasize that rightist elements within Israel had their own reasons, independent of Washington, to pursue the conflict.

Still, given Israel's enormous military, economic, and political dependence on the United States, this latest war on Lebanon could not have taken place without a green light from Washington. President Jimmy Carter, for example, was able to put a halt to Israel's 1978 invasion of Lebanon within days and force the Israeli army to withdraw from the south bank of the Litani River to a narrow strip just north of the Israeli border. By contrast, the Bush administration and an overwhelming bipartisan majority of Congress clearly believed it was in the U.S. interest for Israel to pursue Washington's “dirty work” for an indefinite period, regardless of its negative implications for Israel's legitimate security interests.

Much More of an "interesting read" ...no matter who you are!
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/3444

[Nozebro]

1. What is a "read"? Did you mean "article"? Something else? What? n/t

n/t

[pretzel4gore]

6. just a usage - you 'read' the article

nt

[tocqueville]

2. published in Asia times too, very good article

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HH23Ak03.html

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[INDIA]

5. "if you define it as being against the corrupt policies and racist tactis"

I'd argue that it's being against the EXISTANCE of a Jewish state, and yes, that is a bad thing. The Israeli government has morphed into what we see today because of external, not internal, circumstance. If you're surrounded by millions of Arabs who want you dead,and attack you in some way shape or form on a weekly basis, let's see how long your peaceful progressive government lasts.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

7. OH, please. The Israeli gov't has a saying like 100 for every 1

Israeli. I am a white American, and the only racist term I've been called shicksa (spelling is phonetic). I just thought about that today when walking, my Jewish, not Israeli, friends still used that term and yes we were very close.

I have been discriminated against in a black neighborhood (they had their reasons) during college, but they never had a word to describe me as female and not (fill in the blank).

I was pondering this whole issue today, I have friends of every ethnic strain, but, my Jewish friends were the only ones, that I ignorantly never took offense to, that called me female, not of Jewish heritage.

[INDIA]

12. "The Israeli gov't has a saying like 100 for every 1 Israeli"

Prove it. Show me where the Israeli gov has ever said anything like that.

And BTW, I have no friggin idea how your nonsensical story has anything to do with my post. Unless American Judaism=Zionism, is that what you mean? That because you knew some American jews who used a certain word with you, Israelis are racist?

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[INDIA]

21. Yep, didn't answer the 100 to 1 claim.

Thought so. Completely bullshit unsubstantiated claim on your part. And no, I'm not being paid to be pro-Israel. I'm just anti-bullshit, which you and the first poster I was responding to were spreading. There has never been, nor ever will be, an Israeli proclamation dictating a 100 to 1 Arab/Israeli body count. It's completely ridiculous. You made that up. Admit it.

"But, but......I have Jewish friends!" Yeah, so what. Strom Thurmond had a black mistress. Do your Jewish friends know you're spreading lies about Israel?

BTW: I don't know what a shicksa is, nor do I care. It's completely unrelated to this discussion, yet you insist on continuously bringing it up.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

26. Schicksa means non jewish single woman and it is yiddish.

You apparently, argue from a point of no cultural understanding, you are probably young and idealistic. I have implored you to look up the casualty figures, they are available, but that would be beyond your ability to actually try to educate yourself concerning anything outside of your narrow life.

Case in point? What is yiddish?

I'll add you are probably a yenta, certainly not a mensch and I'm going to nosh before I go to bed.

[tocqueville]

11. this is the classical myth

there are mostly INTERNAL reasons for what Israel is and it hasn't morphed into something new and worse. It has always been like that, more or less. Israel was founded by terrorist movements like the Stern, Lehi etc which were national-messianic organisations with a nearby fascistic ideology, more Mussolini style. It's called revisionist zionism. The problem is that Israel never really got rid of them, neither Ben Gurion and Golda Meir succeeded with it. Two Israeli PM were former terrorists with direct roots in these movements. And other Israeli PMs compromised with them. Olmert's parents were members of the Harut (Lehi), an organisation Ben Gurion forbade.

The kicked out 600 000 Palestinians in 1948 are not "supposed to come back". In a way it was exactly what Milosevic tried to do in Bosnia and Kosovo, claiming exactly the same kind of "ancestral historical" right to land which is both immporal and politically stupid. He was stopped by the international community. The difference with Israel is a special context after WWII and the fact that western powers wanted a "safe heaven" in front of rising "communist" Arab nationalism.

The external reasons are existing, but are more a consequence of the internal ones than the contrary : they are the same than the US rethorics against "terrorists". Never try to understand what the other side has to say, if their claims might be justified, just kill them. And when they come back in form of suicide bombers, it's because "they hate our freedoms".

there is an insight about this in Israel and sometimes it pops up in the Haaretz or among Jewish intellectuals abroad who can look at things from a distance.

But the author of the OP is probably right about the ultimate motive from the West : you put the "bad guys" in the front line and can blame them if things go wrong. And I am pretty sure that the US wouldn't give a dime to Israel if the Saudi oil wells dried tomorrow.

Israel only chance to exist (which I think they have the right to for the same reasons you grant immigrants a right to stay) - in the long run is to go back to the 1948 borders and pay compensation to the Palestinians. It would give them back the moral authority they have lost in most parts of the world. They could ask for international protection during a transfer period.

The alternative is probably that the region will be the victim of a mutual holocaust, nuclear or not.

[KoKo]

15. Without some settlement between Israel and Palestine...how can anything

move towards peace? If it all hinges on Israel's right to exist ...then it's time for the parties to negotiate that and say it.........!!!

But, I realize that Israel always wonders if "giving territory back" doesn't diminish their "rights" ...and yet the Palestinians feel that if they get the territory there will still be animosity in some of their constituents to remove Israel altogether.

I haven't posted down in this forum...so I'm sure this has all been hashed out before...but please ...those of you who have been fighting over this shouldn't discount the "newbies" to the issue who are now questioning BOTH SIDES...and maybe we missed the earlier discussions but are looking for answers with the current situation. :shrug:

And...I'm not looking to have an "ox to gore" on this issue. It affects all of us...and I'm trying to learn more...with discussion.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

4. Zunes writes good stuff. A recommended.

He's a local here in California, seen him speak several times.

[acmejack]

8. How Washington Goaded Israel

More appropriate to use the Proper title of the article! People get tired of this anti-Semitic thing, implying all who dare criticize Israel, AIPAC or anything else relating to ssshhhhh are rabid, vile bigots of the very worst sort. I, for one, am sick of it.

[KoKo]

9. My intent was not to offend..and that one paragraph seemed to be something

NEW in questioning if Israeli's aren't being used just like Jews have in the past...and it was interesting from that point of view.


Most DU'ers don't read past the subject line. The OP had the original title
which you queried me asking why I didn't use it. My answer is that I thought the paragraph I pulled out with a FULL LINK to REST OF ARTICLE...was something NEW and interesting for those of us trying to make sense out of Israeli/Lebanon War...

I apologize if my post offended...but darn it...I still think a good discussion about that paragraph would be one I'd like to hear. Maybe I'm totally alone in wondering if what that paragraph is saying might not have some truth to it? :shrug:

But...I'm still not trying to offend anyone..just going for DISCUSSION.

[acmejack]

16. Sorry, I get overwrought.

My fault. I apologize to you for the outburst, it was inappropriate. Apologizing is something I seem to be doing entirely too much of lately, perhaps I need to take a few days off. The problem is that so much is happening that one hardly can tear themselves away for a waking minute.

Again, forgive me. I had no right. I don't know, I think half of it is these painkillers they are giving me, not only do I still hurt, now I am addicted to the silly things and I'm goofy to boot. Not that I wasn't stupid to start with...

Anyways, as I was saying, I'm a just a jerk!

[I_Make_Mistakes]

19. Please, don't get addicted to the pain killers, it could ruin your

life. I try to take minimal pain killers, they make me dizzy, not hungry which makes me more dizzy.

I truly believe one heals faster and better, if one feels pain (take the edge off with pills I am not talking go without) and I have had a lot of experience with that.

I am not sure what you are recovering from, but please take care, to take care of yourself!

[AlamoDemoc]

10. The only thing that remain is the hope that many jews in america

would want to distance themselves from zionists and fundamental christians and point out to the injustices done under their name in Palestine.


on edit: fear is the worst a man can ever fear.

[Tom Joad]

17. There are many such groups, for example,

Jewish Voice for Peace. http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

But it takes all of us together to demand a foreign policy based on justice and the desire for peace, instead of the desire for empire, greed and racism as is currently the foreign policy of the US.

[AlamoDemoc]

20. Yes Tom..that's true, and I admire folks like "Jewish Voice for Peace"

indeed, we need more like them and we non-jews should support their efforts in this. Yesterday there were demonstration in New York and San Francisco of group called "Jews against the Occupation" that staged sit-ins but they didn't get media covorage...Domocracy Now showed clip of the them.

[Tom Joad]

22. We can also support Palestinian organizations... and just any

organization for a more just policy.
US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation
http://www.endtheoccupation.org/

[AlamoDemoc]

23. thanks

[azurnoir]

18. Name another country

that could "get away with" upon having 2 soldiers kidnapped by a neighbor, invade that neighbor; state plainly that their intent was to destroy civilian infrastructure to the degree of setting that country back 20-50 years, kill on a 10 to 1 basis (at least) civilians, create an environmental mess for the entire region by bombing oil tanks located on a coastline this is to name only in part what has transpired in the past 7 weeks, and then cry when their actions are protested "You don't like us because you are prejudiced"?

[Tom Joad]

24. What other country? I got one. I got more than one.

Though of course without those very specific details. But it does have the same chutzpah, the same disregard for civilian life.

Look outside your window. Your likely sitting in it. Our own United States.

Deaths in Vietnam: nearly 2 million dead.
Support for death squads in Central America: hundreds of thousands dead
Overthrow of Dominican Republic govt, for daring to elect the wrong leader (ordered by a Democratic President, btw)
Support for Indonesia's genocide in East Timor. (I doubt if Indonesia would have gotten away with this without US support)
I mean i can go on and on... Go back a hundred years of US history.

This does not let Israel off the hook, it just puts it in perspective. We need to fight US policy, that is very consistant across the globe. tragically.

[azurnoir]

25. Was thinking that while posting

but we The US tend to be more "mealy mouth" about it, not that it makes it any better or any more right. Up until the past 4 or so years other countries tended to give us the benefit of a doubt which we have taken advatage of to the point that will be a very long time if ever before we have that extended to us again. Israel didn't disguise their intent by calling their campaign "Operation Lebanese Freedom" which in a way makes them more honest if not much else.

[Lithos]

27. Locking per I/P guidelines

Not based on a recent news or op-ed article.

Lithos
DU Moderator