Police: Clear evidence against Minister Ramon

[Scurrilous]

Second attack on Kadima in 24 hours: Tuesday noon, Attorney General Mazuz decides to bring MK Tzachi Hanegbi to justice in political appointments affair. In afternoon, police announces there is sufficient proof to take Justice Minister Ramon to court on suspicion of indecent behavior against government official

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3291643,00.html

<snip>

"On Tuesday afternoon, the police brought a suggestion to the State Prosecutor's Office, saying there is sufficient proof to indict Justice Minister Haim Ramon, on the matter of the kiss between him and a clerk in one of the government's offices.

Should Attorney General Menachem Mazuz decide to begin proceedings against Ramon, it will be Kadima's second senior member to be accused, after a decision was made earlier Tuesday to indict MK Tzachi Hanegbi on the matter of political appointments. The police presented to the attorney general all the material on the matter, and, according to them, there is sufficient evidence supporting a suspicion of indecent behavior.

In the past few weeks, police officials estimated that there is enough evidence to support an indictment. Three weeks ago, Ramon himself was brought in for questioning for seven hours . Following the investigation, the attorney general explained to him that as long as he is being investigated by police, he will have to avoid dealing with issues concerning his position as a justice minister.

The matter of the complaint against Ramon was published after the district court partially removed the publication ban on the matter. H, the young plaintiff, is not working at Ramon's office, but served until recently in one of the other government offices."

[pelsar]

1. relevance

to the I/P conflict?

[newyorican]

2. Same question...

...could be asked of too many threads that wind up in this sub-forum.

[pelsar]

3. and the same question should be asked of them...

if they are relevant and if so how?

[Violet_Crumble]

8. And why aren't you asking them?

n/t

[pelsar]

12. i notice a pattern....

Scurrilous seems to post these types of posts with no real comment or reason....just strikes me as rather juvenile

[Violet_Crumble]

13. I'm also noticing a pattern...

You among others also post these types of posts with no real comment or reason, yet you only focus on Scurrilous....

[pelsar]

17. not these kinds...

I dont post about "corruption" for the sake of it (i'm usually more interested in the palestenain society at large, in particular how it relates to civil rights etc.)..and i have what to say....Scurrilous, i cant even recall entering a discussion with him/her...can you?

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Scurrilous]

4. Comptroller to question PM and his wife on real estate deal

<snip>

"Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and his wife, Aliza, will soon be summoned for questioning by the State Comptroller's Office on suspicion of receiving benefits worth some half a million dollars.

State Comptroller Micha Lindenstrauss is looking into suspicions that the Olmerts were given an exorbitant discount on the purchase price of a garden apartment on Jerusalem's Cremieux Street. According to these suspicions, Olmert's associates worked to help the contracting company that renovated the house to obtain unusual permits from the Jerusalem municipality. These permits significantly increased the profitability of the project."

<snip>

"The Prime Minister's Office said in response that "the prime minister has not received any request from the comptroller's office."

The Olmerts bought a garden apartment at 8 Cremieux Street in Jerusalem in October 2004, for a price of $1.2 million. According to the comptroller's findings, however, the apartment's true value is between $1.6 million and $1.8 million. Thus at the time of the sale, Olmert apparently received a discount worth between $400,000 and $600,000."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/751478.html

[Scurrilous]

5. Former employee: President Katsav coerced me into sex

<snip>

"A former employee at the President's Residence told the police that since the affair surrounding President Moshe Katsav's alleged sexual harassment and attempted extortion became known, the president's men had been pressuring her in an attempt to silence her.

The woman, who had been questioned by the police about the affair about a month ago, apparently told them that the president had used his position to coerce her into having sexual relations with him."

more

[pelsar]

6. relevance?

to the I/P conflict?.......I'm a bit confused as to how it fits....perhaps since your doing quite a bit of posting about it you could explain

[Violet_Crumble]

7. Maybe you should ask in some other threads as well?

Y'know, all those threads that have had zero to do with the I/P conflict. Y'know, like that time you posted stuff about honour killings? ;)

[pelsar]

10. the relevance...

there is quite the difference. An israeli minister being accused of crimes etc being investigated by the police shows the way democracies are supposed to work. So if the idea of posting the investigation is to show a democracy in action, that is fine. (though i doubt that was the posters motivation)

However honor killings within the palestenain society is very indicative of the society. If their society is not based on democracy, civil rights, a free press, etc then there is a problem. If honor killings are accepted, along with their "moral squads" and considered "OK" what kind of society will that be?...not a very stable one.

The make up of both societies are crucial, so that the latest "dictator" cant just turn around and change all the policies of the past....for that one needs a democracy with all its features, which is far more than elections.

honor killings, represent the exact opposite of that, a police investigation of the president represent precisly how it should be.
______

discussions of both societies as far as i'm concerned is a very crucial part of the conflict....i did notice that its usually not talked about, I can guess because it gets into some very sensitive areas that involve discussion of failed societies, what they are, what is better, dictators, occupations, theocratic dictatorships etc....(US installed secular shah or home boy religious fanatic khomeni? - which would you choose, can you choose?)

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Stop making feeble excuses...

Here's a fact for you - Neither corruption within a government nor honour killings are relevent to the I/P conflict. It's incredibly hypocritical to sit there and complain about relevence only because you decide it might be critical of Israel...

btw, I recall you posted the same honour killing story twice and attempted to make out it was two separate events. Also, yr comments about Palestinian society are, imo, verging on bigotry with the way broadbrush strokes are used to paint an entire society in a negative light...

[pelsar]

18. exactly!

imo, verging on bigotry with the way broadbrush strokes are used to paint an entire society in a negative light......any discussion about the palestenian society gets that comment.

so how would you discuss the characteristics of either the israeli or palestenain society?....can you with out calling yourself an almost bigot?

there are professions that discuss societies and their characteristics...or do you consider sociology/urban anthropology, with the generalities "bigotry".

how about the study of "groups" and group think....all have characteristics which can be defined as good and bad...or cant those be discussed?

can we say australians are competitive? more so than native americans?...can we say that most settlers believe god gave them the land and arent interested in democracy or homosexual rights?

we can discuss what is it within the israeli society that lets the settlers build a monument to mass murder Dr....and why that is...and as the sametime compare that to the palestenians celebrating their suicide killers...both have negative characteristics of the societies....but you probably wouldnt want to go there, as the dear dr has a small following and has been lambasted by the free press many times over, palestenians suicide bombers have not.

[MrPrax]

19. My browser must be screwed...

the title is "Israeli/Palestinian affairs"? Why do you insist it says "I/P conflict"

This involves the Israeli government...?

The guidelines allow it?

Is it because it is about the internal politics of Israel? If the fellow posted it anywhere else, it would be locked. Is that was you are trying to do? Censor the internal political situation in Israel?

And why are you allowed to disrupt so many threads with impunity, I wonder?

[pelsar]

20. censorship and my impunity

hardly...just wondering the relevance..and i've noticed over the years the poster who posts these kind of articles never sticks around to discuss them..just keeps on posting them...

its hard not to get the impression that he/she is just looking to show how "horribly immoral israel is." Finding bad stuff about politicians in a democracy is child's play.....all one has to do is open the first two pages of any newspaper to find either local or national politicians doing something or other immoral, illegal or unethical.

now if you would like we can discuss the judicial processes involved and how corrupt it is in israel, compare to the US and England to get an idea of where israel sits on the world level and then we can judge it...or course we might want to compare it to its neighbors as well, since ones environment is also important: syrian, iran, the palestenians....

you game?

as far as my "disruptions".... i'm one of those "zionists who have shares in controlling the world..and i was given some influence over the DU by AIPAC and elders (well my grandad is one of the elders so i have some influence there...)

[MrPrax]

21. I'll PM you...

My response is not fair to the people here or the moderators, so I will PM my reply since it is off topic.

[Scurrilous]

25. Police seize computers, documents from president's residence

Full title: "Police seize computers, documents from president's residence; Katsav to be questioned Wednesday."

<snip>

"Police on Monday night seized computers and documents in a raid on the President's Residence in Jerusalem, it emerged Tuesday. Among the computers taken in the raid was a computer from the president's office.

The raid is part of an investigation into claims by a former employee that the president coerced her into sexual relations with him.

Katsav, who has denied wrongdoing, is facing possible rape charges as a result of the complaint.

Police said the president will be questioned under caution at his residence on Wednesday, and a complaintant would be brought in for a confrontation with him.

The President's Residence declined to comment on the raid. In a statement issued after the news broke, Katsav's office said he would cooperate with the investigation."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/753547.html

[Scurrilous]

9. Tzachi Hanegbi to be indicted over political appointments

<snip>

"The State Prosecutor's Office will indict MK Tzachi Hanegbi in a month over political appointments he made while environment minister, Attorney General Menachem Mazuz decided yesterday.

Hanegbi agreed to waive his parliamentary immunity, but announced that he does not intend to resign his post as chair of the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.

Hanegbi will be charged with fraud and breach of trust, election bribery, attempting to influence voters, false testimony and perjury."

<snip>

"According to the indictment, "during his tenure at the Environment Ministry, the accused acted in a premeditated and systematic manner, himself and through others headed by Hershkovitz, to secure the appointment of Central Committee members, their sons, daughters, friends and so on, to as many jobs and positions in the ministry as possible, while violating the general public's chance to compete for these jobs and positions, and sometimes without regard for their qualifications and suitability for the post. This activity took place while exploiting public resources for political and personal interests, which violated the equality principle, tarnished the civil service with a political element, damaged the quality of workers in the civil service and undermined the standards of ethical propriety in the civil service."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/750948.html

[pelsar]

11. well Scurrilous?

perhaps the relevance for your postings?...are you trying to show how democracies work? or show the lack of moral fiber of the israelis?

[Violet_Crumble]

15. I'm curious, pelsar...

These posts are about corruption in the Israeli govt. There's been a mountain of threads here in the past about corruption in the Palestinian govt, so I take it that you think the motive in posting those may have been to show the lack of moral fibre of the Palestinians? Or is it different when it's corruption in any other govt than Israel?

[pelsar]

16. i think both are irrelevant to the issue of I/P (corruption in itself)

the fact there are corrupt PA officials and corrupt israeli has no relevance to the conflict. HOWEVER, how each society deals with their corrupted officials is very important.

if the discussion is about that, then i think there is a reason of for posting...the original post with its poster has never, that i can recall ever actually entered a discussion upon the israeli corruption and its implications.

[Scurrilous]

22. Ramon announces resignation

Day after attorney general decides to try Ramon for indecent act, Justice Minister says he gives up immunity and resigns from government

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3292806,00.html

<snip>

"Justice Minister Haim Ramon announced Friday to Attorney General Menachem Mazuz that he was giving up his immunity and a hearing, and resigning from government.

Ramon's message followed a decision to try him over suspicions of carrying out an indecent act without mutual consent. Ramon asked for his trial to begin immediately.

On Thursday Attorney General Mazuz told Ramon that he decided to place him on criminal trial. He gave the opportunity to hold a hearing before taking a final decision on the matter. Ramon responded by saying he would weight the matter. "I am sure of my innocence. The court will prove it," he said, after announcing his resignation.

Ramon asked for his trial to begin as soon possible for the public interest. He said that he was sure he could prove to the court that "two-three second kiss" according to the version of the accuser could not turn into an act with criminal intentions."


Bye bye Mr. Ramon. It was nice knowing you.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/751961.html

"We are allowed another Kafr Qana! It is all right to destroy everything!" (Minister of Justice, Haim Ramon, calls for flattening Lebanon, citing international law).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5219360.stm

"All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah.." (Haim Ramon July 27, 2006)

[pelsar]

23. public pressure...

in the israeli democracy forces a minister to resign....seems to me thats the kind of govt that people all over the world would like to have for themselves. Its the kind of the thing that celebrates the democratic process of pressure from the citizens that demand certain ethics from its public servants.

Israel is once again shows itself in an environment of fanaticial facist theorcratic dictators, how a democracy works, even during 60+ of constant warfare

the kind of govt the palestenians can only dream about in the wildest fantasies