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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 02:07 PM
Original message
In the name of Allah
reading what israeli arabs think is always fascinating......on one hand many identify with the palestenains, have relatives in lebanon, syria, etc.....but very very few are actually willing to move to those places.

Best part about them, is that they understand the arab/islamic culture, can read between the lines and understand the implications of the events, far more then the "white colonialistic pseudo progressive" who lives outside the middle east. Sometimes it makes sense to listen to the locals:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/747996.html
__________

It is clear to all that a Hamas-led Palestinian government and a Hezbollah-controlled Lebanon will not bring democratic societies with a flourishing political and social pluralism. It is clear that in regimes such as those, the rule of law, human rights, the freedom of religion and worship, women's rights, the freedom of creation, the freedom of movement, the freedom of expression and thought - all will be alien, ridiculed concepts, to say the least.


A Palestinian moral-ethical debate on the status of the suicide bomber never took place. The saboteur was and remained a shahid, with all of the positive attributes that the word carries in Islamic terminology.


A similar process happened with Hezbollah. ...... You have to be deaf in order not to hear the voice of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as it emerges from Nasrallah's throat, and naive in order to believe that the purpose of the arsenal Nasrallah has accumulated is the release of prisoners and the liberation of the Shaba Farms.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. This guy said it best.....
It's from the Talkback section on the same page, response #2:


"Reading Riad`s piece reminded me of Malcolm X`s famous speech about the "house neggro" and the "feild neggro". Riad clearly positions himslef with the former. Adopting the Zionist versions of all stories and taking all of the Israeli propaganda (that he, by working for Channel 1, helps disseminate) clearly leaves no room for thought or analysis. He equates between the pictures from Lebanon and the ones from Israel, when they are clearly incomparable, he reprimands the Palestinians and the Lebanese beacuse of their ways of resisting occupation without even saying a word about the brutality of the occupation.Riad won`t even argue about the Jewish state,although its creation was the result of a large scale ethnic cleansing.He is arguing and calling for democratic liberal society,and saying that Islam is a threat to these ambitions,and he totally forgets that even in Israel these are not attainable:Jewish and Democratic with emphasis on the "Jewish" cannot be liberal and fully democratic"
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. house neggro
I always found that fascinating too.....and i believe its still going on the "oriole cookie syndrom" black on the outside, white on the inside....for all those "blacks" who managed to escape the ghetto and enter the more affluent society and become productive members of it.

same here as well...an educated arab israel who understands the basics of liberal societies and what they offer vs fanatical islam and their lack of civil rights etc and what they dont offer.

and so he is call the arab version of the house neggro the orial cookie if you will.....and thats because he believes in civil rights and liberal values and doesnt succumb to 'group think" of a social group....as do so many others.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. yeah we have heard that before...
in Algeria it was Nasser, in Iraq Syria or Osama or Iran or all three... "they" probably can't think for themselves...

and about the "white colonialistic pseudo progressive", I love the criticism coming from a country which isn't nothing else than a recent gigantic colony, with territories annexed by force against the will of the international community and with illegal settlements...

truth is that those "freedomthumping" of whatever background they maybe on the other side of the Atlantic (your side) understand so well the "arab/islamic culture" and "can read between the lines" so well, and even listen to the "locals" so much that they have dragged their country in a serie of particularly bloody conflicts and payed themselves a high price a dark day in september 2001.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. actually they do think...
its you who are claiming "they cant think for themselves"....this arab israel is explaining for those who dont know the language and culture whats going on.....

unless of course i am wrong and you do speak arabic and have spent some time in the arab countries.

I wonder how hard you would laugh if some one came to you, who knew nothing of your culture and language and then proceeded to explain to you how you should live and what your values should be.....
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Dug in and fortified
This is the position that Western supporters of Hezbollah find themselves in. Having peddled and fed upon the routine anti-Semitism that saturates media coverage of the conflict between Israel and its neighbors, they are so dug in to the Israel-is-always-wrong position that they will go to any length to salvage their prides and egos, including supporting a fascist, religious fundamentalist, genocidal terrorist organization like Hezbollah. It's like the Twilight Zone, seeing American progressives siding with aspiring theocrats in the quest to kill al the Jews. Now I'm starting to understand how Hitler got as far as he did before anyone moved to stop him - so many people forfeited their own ability to make any distinction between the Nazis and their victims, as they do today with the Islamist Nazis and their victims.
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breakaleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. It is like the Twilight Zone. In this we agree.
Except it's in pretending to believe that a terrorist STATE like Israel, is in fact a democracy. A true democracy doesn't invade it's neighbours at will, nor inact a system of Apartheid in those they are trying to steal land from.

The charge that western media is anti-semitic is the usual tactic pro-Israelis use to deal with rational arguments.

I can say that he world has learned a thing or two about Hitler as well. You say people stood by and said nothing as Hitler massacred the Jews.

Now, the world is NOT standing by while Israel massacres the Palestinians and the Lebanese.

So, you managed to bring up anti-Semitism, Hitler, and accused us of being supporters of Hezbollah. None of those things are true.
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OrechDin Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. The world is not standing not because



`the world ` has changed, but when it comes to the Jews `the world` never changes it`s side that it picked many centuries ago...
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
32. Of course if the names were reversed the Israel bots would've hit alert...
...on this post long ago.

"Islamist Nazis"?
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. you understood perfectly the sarcasm
and the irony in my statement and know it means exactly the contrary. Besides I have met and meet on daily basis more "Arabs", than you probably will meet in your life. And to exchange ideas you don't have to speak "Arabic", there are very usable common languages.

the Haaretz, even as a respectful Daily, quoting often Israeli opinions that you wouldn't share and probably call anti-semitic if I produced them, cannot at the same time be seen as the ultimate "translator" of the "Arabic mind... what you quote is only a statement from a single person with a very biased approach.

Regarding your last statement, this has already happened : since the beginning of the nineties fundamentalists have been trying to impose their "values" on a part of our citizens. They were fought by a debate of ideas and a reassessment of the fundamental values of our Republic. And the masses listened to the Republic, not to the mollahs. Even if we succesfully had to use violence to dismantle infiltrated terrorists and bombers, hijackers etc... (oh yes we had that too), we didn't go and flatten Tunisia in collective punishment...

that's the whole difference between a mature democracy, aware of its past mistakes - and democracies in name that don't even understand the scope of their actions...
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Just out of curiosity
how is it you can make this statement: "Besides I have met and meet on daily basis more "Arabs", than you probably will meet in your life." How do you know this? Pelsar does, after all, live in Israel. How would you know of his contacts with Arabs?
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. I didn't know he lived there
but in a way I guess I am right. The ones I meet have at least the right to express themselves COMPLETELY freely.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. lots of things i disagree with...
Edited on Wed Aug-09-06 03:32 PM by pelsar
in haaretz, new york times...etc... i do find however that when reading/talking to arabs about their culture, (i'm limited to usually those who are more liberal in outlook*) is that they have a disdane for hamas and hizballa and for all of their supporters. These would include the israeli arabs in the town next door where i visit, shop, eat etc, a relativly affluent village....some israeli arabs i meet professionally and some just on trips on vacation...

They may disagree with the occupation etc, but they arent so blind to see that hamas on the westbank and in gaza is actually far worse in both the short term and long term for both palestenains and israelis as well.

your statement of fundamentalist imposing their values were fought via debate, is worthy of a stable democracy based in liberal values that obviously your fundamentalists also respect....thats a western value, not one found in most of the middle east. Here fundamentalist include killing family members for dishonoring, dragging couples in the streets for holding hands, hanging homosexuals, gun battles etc.....like i wrote, different environment that only those who are ethnocentric cant see.

and the "arabs" you've met...met any in the middle east?....people act very very differently when not in their home environment, and if you dont know that, you should get out more, drop the keyboard, grab backpack learn some different languages (if you dont already) and go meet some "locals"

_______________
what would you support, just out of curiosity:

US imposed Shah of Iran, a secular dictatorship

or khomeni: a fanatic islamic dictatorship.

with all their intolerences and implications for the regions, present and future
_____

just a human interest story: about a year ago, this guy came up to me, in tel aviv and asked me if i was interested in selling my motorcycle (kawaski 500ER)..Ahmed and I started talking , he was an engineer in a hi tech company. I mentioned the dangers of having a motorcycle in tel aviv and he mentioned that it depended upon his wife....and so we got off to joking about how things in the arab culture are changing...in this case to his disadvantage. In the end his wife said no and i ended up selling it a year later to someone else.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. I don't buy you theory of locals
beside I have access to very accurate information about what the "arab feeling" is. And I don't mean watching Al Manar. Besides plenty of the guys here have family "over there".

the two last ones :

1) neither : The US fucked up Mossadegh because he was a communist. They put the Shah in charge and got Khomeini instead. Israel didn't want to discuss with Arafat and Abbas : they got Nasrallah instead. BTW it was the CIA that initially set up the Hezbollah as a counterweight to the PLO and Syria in Lebanon. That the "Osama tactic". We all see the results.

2) of course things are changing. But I don't think the relation to the wife was very different from the one in the arabic countries if you go back 50 years in southern Europe. What you describe above with the Arabic fundies is more an epiphenomenon and not very representative in North Africa, Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, Syria etc... And if the Evangelicals and other Xian fundies came to power in the US they would do exactly the same thing. And Jewish fundies too. Luckily they are quite few.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. now thats a cop out...
Edited on Wed Aug-09-06 04:45 PM by pelsar
come on make a choice:....sometimes life gives you only bad options:

khomeni or shah

_______

the problem with the arab fundamentalists is that unlike the christian and jewish ones...they've already got one country, iran, are still fighting for afganistan..have (had) a good portion of lebanon and parts of the palestenains, own saudi arabia...and have money to spread their filth, which they are doing. More so they have confused the "progressives" in to believing that promoting fanatic fundementalism is the best choice....

in essence it seems you have chosen: you prefer khomeni style of goverment, complete with moral squads hanging homosexuals etc as opposed to a secular dictatorship....(as in cuba for instance)




the threat as many israeli arabs feel is real and it threatens and affects them directly
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. "are you with us or against us ? "
Please no more demagogue choices. I don't have to chose between two bad choices, specially when I am not responsible of them. Fuck both.

And don't put words in my mouth, I don't side, I propose alternative solutions because your neocon solution "flatten first, discuss later" isn't working - besides that it is immoral, illegal and dangerous. Your single-minded, black/white world view is going to be your fall and death. You are in this situation because you created it. I don't want to discuss again the premises of Israel, but it's obvious that your tactics against your neighbours and occupied citizens the last 60 years have been bedding for the current situation. Now they got you were they wanted you to be : a war of attrition on their home turf.

you're fucked, make no mistake. This time it's not badly trained Egyptian tanks. You haven't been able to seize 3 km of land in Lebanon without heavy casualties in one month. You haven't stopped any rockets. You have only "succeeded" in destroying a country's infrastructure to an horrible civilian price, an infrastructure that the Hezbollah doesn't use for its fight. Don't you think they haven't learned anything from Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam ?

PS : the USA and Israel have never understood the true meaning of separation of Church and State - it's only on paper, that's why they have powerful fundies to the difference of Europe. Our last ones died with WWI. USA/Israel Xtian fundies don't have missiles yet... or wait... have they ? At least the US and Israel fundies have missiles with nukes. The Irani have some fucking SCUDS with nothing in it. But I agree that they are working on the later problem.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. cant even answer some questions....
Edited on Wed Aug-09-06 11:47 PM by pelsar
sometimes the alternatives arent so good...for those who where anti shah and pro khomeni....it included much of the iranians liberals...who were quickly hung after the revolution. (or like the palestenains: fatah or hamas....)

the question that begs to be answered by those who are interested, were those "liberals" right or wrong......they did not have a third choice....pretend you were iranian back then, what would you have done?

come on...this is only a word game, surly you must the "guts" to answer it, though it was after all a real situation not long ago...and in fact for many palestenians it may be a similar one..sometimes life doesnt give you the wonderful third option......

sometimes you only get two realistic options.....ask your "arab friends" perhaps they can help you out


and israel being "fucked"...thats been happening since day one, when israel had to fight off 7 invading arab countries...and the different variations since then, this war is based in nassrallas and iranian philosophy ....and they never made any "bones about it", they dont even play word games to appease the west (though it appears many in the west manage to find a way)....nothing new here

and just a fun fact: i have never said if i was for or against the war or its tactics...for those that inquired i just explained the reasoning for the different tactics used.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. It's always been interesting to me how . .
Edited on Wed Aug-09-06 02:41 PM by msmcghee
. . Americans who have never seen a day of real conflict in their lives can sit here behind their keyboards and tell Israel that she has no right to defend the lives of her citizens from attack by those who have sworn to destroy her.

They toss around big words like colonialism and aggression - like they have any idea what those words really mean in terms of the people's lives who have to live by them.

They blithely conclude that if Israel would just withdraw to (insert latest demands from Hamas and Hizbollah here) then all the Arabs who have been trying to destroy Israel would decide to live in peace with their new Jewish neighbors - because that's all they've really wanted all along. All those threats of pushing Israel into the sea and destroying Israel to the last Jew - were just overheated discussion. Oh, and they really are sorry about all those suicide bombers and the thousands of Israelis that they killed.

I'll never be able to fully appreciate the lengths some people will go to to justify their irrationality. The sad thing is they always do this so easily when other people's lives at stake - never their own.

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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. that was a very confused post in my opinion
Edited on Wed Aug-09-06 03:19 PM by tocqueville
nobody on DU - what I know of - disputes Israel's right to defend itself (no matter how self-inflicted the attacks might be due to very disputable policies). They dispute Israel's "right" to flatten a country in punishment. The attack on Lebanon AS A WHOLE is no more motivated than the US attack on Iraq.

about colonialism I found that it was quite preposterous to accuse others of colonialism when the country you defend is nothing else than a colony (on others).

Nobody expects the "Arabs" to stand still and be nice after there is a cease fire. The EU has asked for a cease fire and a withdrawal to establish a robustly militarily controlled zone so that attacks cannot occur. They are taking the risk of sending their "boys" for the sake of others. The US/Israeli answer has been "we cannot do that" because you cannot trust those terrorists and besides the UN cannot be trusted. That way it NEVER can be a cease fire. The trick is so empty that everybody sees through it except those who don't want to. Of course it's only an attempt to expand positions, win time, completely destablize a country at an enormous human price.

Israeli losses specially civilian ones are sad. But the ratio is one to five compared to the other side, one to ten in Lebanon's case. Very few Hizbollah fightes have been killed - maybe hundred - thousands civilians are dead. There is no justification.

But I do agree with one thing :

"I'll never be able to fully appreciate the lengths some people will go to to justify their irrationality"

and maybe it's because I belong to the category that have been very close to those who have "seen a day of real conflict in their lives" and have even personal experiences that I write that I write.
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msmcghee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Your post is full of misconceptions and half truths.
Edited on Wed Aug-09-06 04:39 PM by msmcghee
Rather than list them all I'll just focus on one: " . . about colonialism I found that it was quite preposterous to accuse others of colonialism when the country you defend is nothing else than a colony (on others)."

Israel is not a colony. World War II killed millions and displaced millions more. Palestine was a territory. The Mufti of Jerusalem and other Arab dignitaries in the region supported the Axis powers against the Allies in WWII and supported the extermination of Jews in Hungary.

Additionally, after WWII, almost a million Jews were kicked out of Arab countries in the ME where they lost everything. The new state of Israel offered them a home. Why did not the Arab states there welcome displaced Palestinians (those who chose to leave, since the Isreali government begged them to stay). Instead Trans-Jordan, Egypt and Lebanon placed them in refugee camps where their descendands live today.

Under the circumstances it was hardly colonialism that caused the UN to partition the Territory of Palestine into Jewish and Arab zones.

Documentation:

There is overwhelming documentation of the role of Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, as a leading instigator of Nazi mass murders.

For example, during UN Security Council discussions in 1947, the Nation Associates, which owned what is now The Nation magazine, presented photostats of letters written by Hajj Amin al-Husseini, proving his complicity in the murder of hundreds of thousands of Jews. The text of one such letter is posted below.

As you read this letter, please note the understated language. The Mufti was arguing against allowing Hungarian Jews to "escape" (his term). Instead they should be sent "to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland." The phrase of note is "active control." Poland was the site of Chelmno, Treblinka, Sobibór, Majdanek, Belzec and of course Auschwitz-Birkenau, to name just the six biggest death camps.



Mufti Asks Hungary to Send Jews to Poland



Rome
June 28, 1943
His Excellency
The Minister of Foreign Affairs for Hungary
Your Excellency:

You no doubt know of the struggle between the Arabs and Jews of Palestine, what it has been and what it is, a long and bloody fight, brought about by the desire of the Jews to create a national home, a Jewish State in the Near East, with the help and protection of England and the United States. In fact, behind it lies the hope which the Jews have never relinquished, namely, the domination of the whole world through this Important, strategic center, Palestine. In effect their program has, among other purposes, always aimed at the encouragement of Jewish migration to Palestine and the other countries of the Near East. However, the war, as well as the understanding which the members of the Three-Power Pact have of the responsibility of the Jews for its outbreak and finally their evil intentions towards these countries which protected them until now - all these are reasons for placing them under such vigilant control as will definitely stop their emigration to Palestine or elsewhere.

Lately I have been informed of the uninterrupted efforts made by the English and the Jews to obtain permission for the Jews living in your country to leave for Palestine via Bulgaria and Turkey. I have also learned that these negotiations were successful since some of the Jews of Hungary have had the satisfaction of emigrating to Palestine via Bulgaria and Turkey and that a group of these Jews arrived In Palestine towards the end of last March. The Jewish Agency, which supervises the execution of the Jewish program, has published a bulletin which contains important information on the current negotiations between the English Government and the governments of other interested states to send the Jews of Balkan countries to Palestine. The Jewish Agency quoted, among other things, its receipt of a sufficient number of immigration certificates for 900 Jewish children to be transported from Hungary, accompanied by 100 adults.

To authorize these Jews to leave your country under the above circumstances and in this way, would by no means solve the Jewish problem and would certainly not protect your country against their evil influence - far from it! - for this escape would make it possible for them to communicate and combine freely with their racial brethren in enemy countries in order to strengthen their position and to exert a more dangerous influence on the outcome of the war, especially since, as a consequence of their long stay in your country they are necessarily in a position to know many of your secrets and also about your war effort. All this comes on top of the terrible damage done to the friendly Arab nation which has taken its place at your side in this war and which cherishes for your country the most sincere feelings and the very best wishes.

This is the reason why I ask your Excellency to permit me to draw your attention to the necessity of preventing the Jews from leaving your country for Palestine and if there are reasons which make their removal necessary, it would be indispensable and infinitely preferable to send them to other countries where they would find themselves under active control, for example, in Poland, in order thereby to protect oneself from their menace and avoid the consequent damages

Yours, etc.

* Source: The Arab Higher Committee. Its Origins, Personnel and Purposes. Documentary Record Submitted to the United Nations, May 1947, by the Nation Associates. Hungary acceded to the Mufti's request and sent Hungarian Jews to the death camps ("where they would find themselves under active control") in Poland. The Nation Associates added their own note stating that as a result of this request, 400,000 Jews were killed.
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mtice Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. re: Mufti of Jerusalem
Also of note is the the Mufti of Jerusalem who collaborated with the Nazis' Final Solution program was Yasser Arafat's mentor and uncle.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. This is incorrect
It has been fairly well determined, that Mr. Arafat played up some confusion over this, but the truth of the matter is that he was at best minimally related to the Mufti.

L-
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Wrong.
Edited on Wed Aug-09-06 07:09 PM by Spinoza
Your 'history' is ridiculous. The idea that Jabotinsky and the Irgun somehow had more effect or importance or influence than Ben Gurion and the Haganah is not simply false. It's nuts. You state Israel was founded by the Irgun and the fringe Lehi without mentioning one word on the Haganah which dwarfed both organizations in size (and occasionally fought them.). Neat.

>snip "Following the Arab 1929 Hebron massacre that led to the ethnic cleansing by the British authorities of all Jews from the city of Hebron, the Haganah's role changed dramatically. It became a much larger organization encompassing nearly all the youth and adults in the Jewish settlements, as well as thousands of members from the cities.<"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah

And if Israel is a 'colonial' power, who exactly is the colonial 'mother' country or countries? Certainly not England who the Palestinian Jews fought. It wasn't France. Certainly not Germany or Russia. Europe, as usual, hated the Jews. Don't think it was the U.S.A. Aisia sure doesn't work. A 'colonial power' by definition, is a colony representing some foreign state. Mind telling me on whose behalf the Jews were 'colonizing'?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-09-06 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. poor understanding of history....
Israel was founded by the Irgun and the Lehi

i'm afraid that this sentence alone shows how little the author actually knows the history of the region. A serious discussion of the subject requires a bit more knowledge of the players involved. There is a minor play called the hagana and their leadership and true their influence was very limited, but not to mention them shows a serious lack of knowledge.....
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 07:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. Commentary
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 07:50 AM by Lithos
This is in response to a long post whose thesis was that the Irgun and Lehi groups were the primary impetus for the foundation of Israel.

Using this logic, it is rather obvious Mexico was founded by the Irish as there was a brigade of Irish volunteers in the Mexican-American war.

Irgun had an extremely minimal impact on the foundation of the State of Israel. This type of over-inflation and deliberate mis-representation and ignoring of facts is exactly the same type of forensic ploy used by Joan Peters and others used to belittle the Palestinian people. Such epistemic bias serves only to exacerbate the problem in trying to build bridges for discussion.

Lithos
DU Moderator












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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #14
26. Two comments here
Edited on Thu Aug-10-06 08:06 AM by Lithos
While it is certainly of interest to discuss whether Israel was a colony or the result of an immigration movement such as what is happening in the US Southwest, the claim nonethelesss has been around since the 1920's (if not earlier) and served as one of the elements of Sheikh Qassam's rhetoric and fits well much of the gestalt of the Palestinian national movement.

Also the Grand Mufti, while a notorious anti-Semite, was not especially well considered by Nazi Germany and it's allies. While he certainly lobbied for the deaths of Jews, his was not a major voice nor was it the primary factor in influencing the Hungarian nation. The issue was really not hanging on the edge of a razor so that his voice could make such a difference.
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Lurking Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Lithos
I'm not sure that the Mufti's Nazi alliances having any power or influence in Europe is the point.

It's whether his antisemitic inclinations and favor of Hitler's politicies are the nut from which grows a tree.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. I don't think so.
I'm not sure that the Mufti's Nazi alliances having any power or influence in Europe is the point.

It's whether his antisemitic inclinations and favor of Hitler's politicies are the nut from which grows a tree.


I don't think so. Or rather, the notion he had much lasting influence in politics and current thinking is I think incorrect.

He was one of many Arab elite who focused their attention towards Europe, primarily Germany, in how they determined their approach to dealing with Britain and France. The people who lead Iraq in 1940, the ties between Turkey and Germany prior and during to WWII (Where do you think Turkey got all of those PZKW's?).

The Young Officers in Egypt already were looking to Germany prior to WWII. Later following their overthrown of King Faisal (? Memory may be wrong here), it was they who brought in the ex-Wehrmact and SS officers to train their army. It was also their influence which affected Syria during the great UAR experiment.

If that were not enough, what ties the British had with the Arabs generally involved men with rather strong anti-Semitic overtones such as Philby.

No matter how you slice, it, the Grand Mufti was more symptomatic of what was going on, not the font from which it sprang up.

L-
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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
22. Thanks for posting this important perspective.
Hezbollah rockets aren't just killing jews, they are also killing arabs...both literally and figuratively. They are killing hopes for peace, they need to be neutralized and it's going to require a diplomatic and political solution after Israel has done all it can militarily to enable the diplomatic and political solution to succeed.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-10-06 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
30. an addition:
according to the hebrew paper maariv on thursday, israeli arabs from haifa have asked to be volunteers in the IDF....
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norml Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
31. Yeah, those that win democratic elections are such a threat to democracy.
If only some outsider could dictate to them what to do, then things would be fine forever more.

:eyes:
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. democracy is more than just elections...
having elections by itself, does not define democracy...though its a part of a democracy, its not enough. Democracy also needs to have civil rights, womens rights, for instance, democracy needs a single security service that answers to its govt and nobody else...etc

without those, an election doesnt mean a whole lot.
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