Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions - Numbers Four and Five

[wellst0nev0ter]

Question Four The end justifies the means, so why are you complaining about a few civilians killed if in the long run many more lives will be saved?

Question Five The number would be unnoticed if the victims had died at the hands of an Arab government. Israel is far more moral than its enemies so why does the whole world pick on us?

Answer These questions are intimately related so I put them together. They are also incredibly infuriating, and cause me to tear out what little hair I have left...I wish I could be "snappier" in my response, but such deeply ingrained stupidity needs a more detailed response in order to be uprooted.

<snip>

Essentially, I argue that whatever the Hamas did or does, Israel does too. We can argue from here until doomsday about intentions, but the fact is both sides claim the best of intentions. Claiming the moral high ground becomes a tool to justify atrocities, a tool used by all sides.

If the arguments I made there apply in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, they apply ten-fold to the Lebanon-Israel conflict. At the beginning of the war the G8, the most powerful countries in the world, joined together to condemn Hezbullah for "kidnapping" two Israeli soldiers. Bush nearly foamed at the mouth talking about this "terrorist" act. So much for the whole world being against Israel.

Personally, I am dumbfounded at the hypocrisy shown by the world leaders on this topic. How easily we forget that in the 18 years of Israel's first war against Lebanon, it kidnapped dozens of Lebanese, many who were unarmed civilians, and held them as hostages and bargaining chips to release prisoners held by Hezbullah!! These kidnap victims were tortured and were not allowed visits from family or the ICRC. But why reach back to the distant past? Just a few days before Israel kidnapped civilian representatives of the Palestinian parliament, to be used as bargaining chips to release the soldier captured by Hamas. And then a few days ago, Israel kidnapped three Lebanese civilians for the same purpose.

Just today I read in the wires how Israel "arrested" a Hezbullah soldier reportedly involved in the original kidnapping. My mouth nearly dropped. "Arrested?" And the world press hates Israel? Jeez. If I was Arab, I would be convinced the Jews control the world press.

<snip>

Yesterday twelve Israeli soldiers were killed at the entrance of a Kibbutz in the north. The reservists were there getting ready to be deployed in the north. The secretary of the Kibbutz was quick to note that the Israeli army deploys the soldiers in the entrance of the Kibbutz, instead of inside the kibbutz, so that the Kibbutz will not be a target. So let's get this straight. Israel isn't "hiding" soldiers amongst civilians because it deploys the soldiers about 10 meters from where the civilians in the Kibbutz live. But since those Hezbullah terrorists shot a missle 100 meters from where the civilians were hiding in Qana, the 30 or so people killed there are victims of Hezbullah, not Israeli missles.

Of course, anyone who has ever visited Israel, knows that military installations are mixed freely amongst civilians. Israeli soldiers are everywhere on the streets. The headquarters of the Israeli army is smack dab in a residential neighborhood of Tel Aviv. I worked not far from there during the first Gulf War (in Ramat Gan) which is why the neighborhood our office building was in (also near a residential neighborhood) was hit by several scud missles. Saddam was trying to hit Israeli military HQ, but the scud missles just weren't accurate enough.

This is not an intentional act on Israel's part to use civilians as shields, but a reality of the fact that Israel is a tiny country. The army is composed of young soldiers and reservists who are constantly coming to and from their homes. Similarly, Hezbullah and Hamas, as guerilla forces also in tiny countries, are deeply embedded in the civilian populations.

<snip>

http://www.israelblog.com/1154928280/index_html

[wellst0nev0ter]

1. If I Were To Offer A Snappy Comeback, It Would Be:

Well! ExCUUUUUUUUUUSE me for thinking Israel is a moral country. I forgot it was no better than one of those A-rab dictatorships. PLEASE forgive me!

[sabbat hunter]

4. what right does

hizbollah have to take israeli soldiers captive? they certainly arent the army of lebanon. they are a milita/terror group that operates completely independently of the lebanese government. Also the lebanese government is in violation of UN resolutions to disarm hizbollah (and have been for many years). Hizbollah crossed into israel, attacked an army outpost, killing soldiers and captured 2 (they are probably dead now given hizbollah's history).

since 2000 hizbollah fired rockets into israel (2000 was the year israel pulled out of lebanon to the UN recongized border) these attacks on civilian territories have increased since israel invaded lebanon to get rid of hizbollah (since the lebanese army was unable or unwilling to do so, as were the UN peacekeepeer that were stationed on the border)

yes israel is attacking civilian areas, but that is because hizbollah cowardly hides behind civilians while doing their attacks.

hizbollah is nothing but a cowardly terror group.

[wellst0nev0ter]

6. What Right Does Israel Have To Bomb Non-Hezbollah Targets?

And I didn't know the timeline was "less than a year" for the newly independent Lebanon government to engage in a costly civil war with Hezbollah that would have ripped the country apart.

And if bombing civilian targets were absolutely necessary to get at the "cowardly terror group" how come the rocket attacks haven't been abated?

And as the article says, if "civilian cover" justifies bombing civilian targets, then the Hezbollah rocket attacks are completely justified since the Israeli military is pretty much a ubiquitous part of Israeli society.

[sabbat hunter]

8. hizbollah is striking at

purely civilian targets. they are even hitting arab areas of israel and teh west bank.

Hizbollah hides cowardly behind civilians to make israel look bad when they strike back.

[idontwantaname]

10. the state of israel cowardly enforces mandatory conscription

making ALL of its citizens guilty of continuing occupation and war crimes, less they loose certain "privileges" within israeli society

[wellst0nev0ter]

12. Isn't Hezbollah Killing More Soldiers Than Israeli Civilians?

And my sympathies run dry for a country that bombs Christian areas unafiliated with Hezbollah, or threatening UN aid workers with harm if they rebuild a bridge that was bombed.

[idontwantaname]

11. what right does the IDF have to still hold lebanese civilians hostage?

are they prisoners of war?

why did the israeli air force continue to violate lebanese air space(documented many times by UNIFIL prior to this conflict)?

where would you prefer the hezbollah militants to go? inside israel??? in fact i think theyre trying to hit military targets inside israel... theyre just having a hard time because all the CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE is in the way!!!

[breakaleg]

2. I don't get how Israel can go into foreign countries or occupied land,

kidnap civilians or even political members and then hold them in jails, and get away with it. Some of these people are held without charge. Some of them are charged, but then how can you charge someone of a crime committed on a country not your own? And some of them are simply to use as a bargaining chip or future trade. And of course, let's not for get the torture.

Why don't human rights groups do more to stop it or bring attention to it? Why isn't the UN stopping them.

And mostly, are they so arrogant, so indifferent to world opinion that they don't even have the decency to act shame faced at their own actions? That they can stand there and justify such acts is beyond me.

[wellst0nev0ter]

3. Human Rights Watch And B'tselem

and other rights group have been rightly condemning Israel for years, but Israel's crimes often get overshadowed by the fear of the Big Bad Arab.

The U.N. is supposed to be a weak institution that serves the world's superpowers, not a strong independent arbiter of justice with its own superarmy. The last time a U.N. Secretary General (Boutros-Boutros Ghali) strongly condemned Israel after it killed 100 civilians in a 1996 bombing attack on Qana, Bill Clinton vetoed his re-appointment to the post.

And yes, Israeli leaders have frequently thumbed their noses at the UN and other bodies of world opinion, claiming that Israel's right to exist in the face of their Arab enemies trumps any and all their limitations on human rights.

[sabbat hunter]

5. occupied territory

under the geneva conventions as an occupier israel has a right to maintain order in the occupied lands. Part of this is to arrest those involved in terror activies. Now israel should be charging the persons arrested and putting them on trial, which they arent.

Why isnt the UN doing anything to stop the terror attacks from hamas or hizbollah? why did the UN just sit and watch as hizbollah crossed the israeli border and kidnapped israeli soldiers (yes kidnapped because hizbollah has no right to "arrest" anyone since they are a paramilitary/terror group)

how about the fact that the israelis are bombed on a daily basis by rocket attacks since they pulled out of gaza last year. or that they were subject to rocket attacks for 6 years since they left lebanon. also that lebanon is in violation of UN resolutions to disarm hizbollah?

[wellst0nev0ter]

7. I Thought Israel Was The Occupier, Not The UN.

And we all know there was no UN force worth a damn near the Lebanese border.

I could give all the Israeli tits for every Hamas/Hezbollah tat, but in the end, hundreds more innocents will be killed when all of this could have been averted peacefully long ago.

[idontwantaname]

9. the lebanese cannot trust israel...

they have too poor a track record with t he palestinians.

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This is through july 19th, and there has been a lot of deaths in gaza since, ,but it you go to

http://pchrgaza.org/files/W_report/English/2006/weekly2006.htm

you can view the reports for the weeks the followed the last report i used to compile this data
And ALL the info is based only on the documentation of Palestinian Center for Human rights in Gaza.
-----------------------------
2006 (until July 19th):
-265 Palestinians killed
56 women/children
66 extra-judicial (assassinations)
-1257 injurues
350 women/children
-Over 1800 arrests
-about 200 women/children
-132 Palestinian homes turned into Israeli military facilities (mainly West Bank)
-Over 2000 dunums of land seized
-1580 olive trees uprooted