Bigotry pins blame on Jews

[Jim Sagle]

What was Mel Gibson's catch-all solution to his woes? `Jews are bad.'

By David Mamet
Published August 6, 2006

<snip>

Israel wants peace, the Arabs want Israel gone (in 2000 Yasser Arafat, on the eve of ending a territorial dispute that would have given him 98 percent of the land he desired, withdrew and went to war). Yet most of the Western press, European and American, picture Israel as, somehow, the aggressor, and the Israelis as somehow inhuman, and delighting in blood.

There is no "cycle of violence." Israel wants peace behind the 1949 armistice borders, with some relatively minor variation. There is no indictable "disparity of force." Israeli civilians are being bombed. Hezbollah knows where the Israeli military bases are, but chooses to bomb civilians. Hezbollah puts its armaments exclusively in the midst of civilians. The Israeli aim is not to invade Lebanon (Israel left Lebanon) but to force Hezbollah to stop killing the Jews.

That the Western press consistently characterizes the Israeli actions as immoral is anti-Semitism. What state does not have the right to defend itself--it is the central tenet of statehood.

The Jews are not the victims of bad PR. They are the victims of anti-Semitism.

More at http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0608060379aug06,1,3537615.story (registration required)

[cali]

1. I love David Mamet, but

I think he's painting an inaccurate and one sided picture here. His claim that Israel is only seeking peace is belied by Israeli actions that contradict such a statement.

[dave123williams]

2. Bullshit.

What do you think our response would be if Canada kidnapped two American soldiers and then started lobbing rockets over the border?

Hezbollah doesn't understand much, but they get what a beatdown means.

[Donnachaidh]

3. uhh, why would Canada feel the need to place soldiers anywhere near

our border? We have no argument with them, nor they with us.

Sorry -- that argument doesn't hold up.

[HereSince1628]

9. I read that American soldiers are cutting and running from NY

Was it the 10th Mountain division that's redeploying out of New York?

[patdem]

4. No, Hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers, Isreal bombed Beruit THEN

Hezbollah started rockets into Israel...And David Mamot, a great playwrite, is being WHO he is, Jewish. He did not even like Steven Spielbergs movie, Shindler's List..I guess it portrayed some European as TOO sympathetic?

[cali]

7. Whoa.

First off, H'zbollah did indeed fire rockets as a distraction on the day they captured the soldiers, but that's a minor point. Your explanation the Mamet is being Jewish is just off. There are many, many Jews who strongly oppose Israel's actions, including Israeli Jews.

[Tom Joad]

25. I agree with Cali's statement on why Mamet makes these statements

I disagree with Mamet, it has nothing to do with him being Jewish.

He is, i believe, being uninformed, like most Americans. There is no genetic predisposition to supporting Israeli militarism any more than there is to supporting U.S. militarism on the part of U.S. citizens.

He has his very limited perspective and information, he makes his value choices from there. His views are shared by many Americans (Jewish and non-Jewish) who have the same limited view of what is going on.

There are those who care about peace who have strongly opposing views, among Jews and non-Jews.

http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

I really don't have much patience for anyone, on either (or any) side of the debate, who says it is about being Jewish, either to defend Israeli actions or condemn Israeli actions.

This is first and foremost a peace & justice issue.

[OrechDin]

45. Besides that one or two Jewish organizations you keep on touting,

the vast majority of Jews and Jewish organizations are strong supporters of Israel (including the Israeli government which really is a good cross section of most important parties in the Knesset and hence pretty representative of the people)

Jews for Jesus is hardly an organization representative of Jews , for example.

Most of the organizations you keep alluding to , have very little mainstream Jewish support.

Try Bnai Brith or UJA or the American Jewish Congress ,HADASSAH, the Women's Zionist Organization of

America or the ADL for example, they are pretty mainstream with vast majority Jewish support.

[dave123williams]

56. Uh, the ADL is a little extreme...

Very twitch folks, I've observed.

[sabbat hunter]

70. i think

you are confusing the ADL (anti defamation league) with the JDL (jewish defense league)

ADL is pretty mainstream as opposed to the nutty JDL

[dave123williams]

12. Get your facts straight.

Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers. Then Israel pushed in to GAZA, then the Hezbollah rockets started from the north. Then the Israelis invaded Lebanon.

Geez.

[sabbat hunter]

71. actually

hamas kidnapped israeli soldiers, then israel went into gaza. rockets were fired on a daily basis before and after the kidnapping

then in northern israel, rockets were fired by hizbollah, they attacked an israeli outpost, took two soldiers captive. then israel invaded lebanon.

[cali]

5. I don't find

that comparison very useful, and you're attacking the wrong person here. I'm not without sympathy for Israel, though admittedly my greater sympathies go with the Lebanese people who have suffered so terribly over the last few weeks. And H'zbollah has played this well; they've already won. Israel should not have gone into Lebanon, not just for the sake of Lebanon, but for the sake of Israel.

[Scurrilous]

6. Yeah...

...them dumb Ay-rabs don't understand nuthin' unless you beat it into them. :thumbsup:

[OrechDin]

22. Well they should start and explain what exactly their beef is with Israel.

What do they want from Israel? They are not Palestinians, they were not occupied,they were not attacked.

Besides wanting a Jew free Middle East,what exactly are they fighting Israel for.?

All they have succeeded in doing is re establishing an occupation of Lebanon that they fought against for 18 years.

[dave123williams]

36. Correct; and that's EXACTLY what Hezbollah wants.

I heard a Hezbollan member of the Lebanese parliament OPENLY ADMIT TO THE BBC that the kidnappings were all about baiting Israel in to attacking so that the Lebanese would become more in tune with Hezbollah as a political philosophy.

Let's repeat that, because it sounds vaguely important - one side of this is playing for political advantage by using kidnapping and murder as an official policy tool. No, it's not the Israelis.

[acmavm]

10. You're argument doesn't hold water. The government of Lebanon

didn't snatch those TWO soldiers (although Israel had been snatching Palestinians prior to that). Why do you think that what happened to those TWO soldiers justifies attacking a country that had no part in the disappearance of those TWO soldiers? Why do you think the bombing of the infrastructure of a country that didn't have anything to do with the disappearance of those TWO soldiers is okay? What gives you the idea that murdering the children of people who had nothing to do with the disappearance of those TWO soldiers is all right as well?

If a group was hiding in Canada snatched two American soldiers and we attacked Canadian civilians, we would also be guilty of war crimes and genocide.

But that's a moot point because we are already killing plenty of innocent civilians.

[dave123williams]

14. What lame reasoning....

Hezbollah kidnapped the soldiers. Hezbollah is 25% of the parliament in Lebanon. The Lebaneese sure as shit had something to with the kidnappings. The idea that the Lebaneese government isn't responsible is just fatuous.

Get this straight; if the Israelis were interested in genociding the Lebaneese, it would already be done - there wouldn't BE any Lebaneese left. Get it?

Perhaps this time they'll learn not to fuck with the Jews, to not kidnap so much as ONE Israeli soldier if they want to ever sleep again.

Probably not, though; they seem to be comparitively stupid as a whole.

[cali]

16. Oh, please

I don't even have the energy or heart to argue with someone who's living in a delusional world.

[dave123williams]

18. It's not heart or energy that you lack; it's a cogent argument.

[acmavm]

26. I'm lame? I'm not the one justifying the cold blooded murder of

innocent civilians.

Seriously, people like you are what's wrong with the world. And as for 'not fucking with the jews', I think you and Israel have a big lesson coming. A really big lesson. Just like the neocons did. And one that you and Israel so richly deserve.

[dave123williams]

34. Wow. That sounds almost like a hollow threat from an idiot.

Keep talking; I'll still be standing, and so will Israel.

"I think you and Israel have a big lesson coming. A really big lesson."

As if we could call what goes on inside your head 'thinking'.

Trust me, look no further than the mirror if you want to know what's wrong with the world. Evidently, you think it's ok to kill Jews. You're defending people who would cut your head off as the highlight of their latest home video just as soon as look at you, and don't seem to realize that if it's a choice between seeing the Lebaneese get what they have so richly earned by being a bed-and-brekfast for Hezbollah, and letting Israel be attacked without repercussion...well, it's you that will lose every single time.

Every. Single. Time.

A big lesson? What, are the Lebaneese and Palestenians suddenly going to become a great people, an economic powerhouse, something other than a military joke? Come on, tough guy; what's our lesson going to be? I can't *wait* to hear this one.

[acmavm]

38. A hollow threat from an idiot? You are a laughable buffoon. Israel is not

the big powerhouse you claim it to be. They thought that they'd go in and kick ass (like I said) and end up in control of Lebanon in record time. Well it didn't happen. And the longer it goes on, the more obvious it is to everyone that there is no difference between the Ohlmert government and neocons who thought that they could take over Iraq with no problems. Birds of a feather and all that.

Israel gotten away with all it has because of it's eternal claim on being the perpetual victim. No one except two nations involved in their own criminal war are buying that crap anymore.

And who's going to suffer? The civilians of both countries. Although after seeing those kids signing those bombs I am having a lot of trouble feeling sorry for the adults who thought that was a cute thing for those kids to be doing.

You're the one who thinks he's such a tough guy. And truthfully, I'm not impressed. Even you buddy george is disgusted with Israel because Israel 'hasn't delivered'.

What they've done is guaranteed that there will never be safety in the Middle East for Israel. But that's what bullys do. Bluster and beat on smaller fry until the day comes when they get paid back.

[dave123williams]

51. Your comparisions are specious.

It's a full on war over there, and you've clearly decided to side with Hezbollah, because you've decided they're the real victim here.

Let's repeat that, because it sounds vaguely important: you've decided that you're with Hezbollah in this. You've put on your tinfoil hat and come to the conclusion that the Israelis are the bad guys. I mean, I just want to be clear on this.

Why don't you call up your friend Mel and have a good gab about how the holocaust didn't happen. Be sure to dust off your copy of 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'; he'll be so excited to speak with somebody who's on the same page.

Then, you can write us all a list of the combined accomplishments of Hezbollah and the Palestenians as societies. No, suicide bombings, kidnappings, rocket attacks, and constant civil war don't count as accomplishments.

It'll be a short list but I'm sure you can cobble something together, blessed as you are with semi-literacy.

and....for the record: I called you out to name your threat, and you backed off. I've noted since the schoolyard, that this exact type of evasion is typical of actual bullies and cowards both.

[adriennui]

64. israel as perpetual victim?

your gripe is that israel is an aggressor. you just can't tolerate the image of the warrier jew, jews fighting for themselves. if there is one thing israel and the jews have learned it is that passivity will kill you....and we will never be passive victims again.

at the same time i'm sick and tired of hearing of the "plight" of the palestinians, the poor, innocent arabs. who has pushed these arabs into the positions they're in? other arab states, looking for a scapegoat. and we know how handy jews are for being scapegoated, we've had practice for 2000 years.

it will not happen again. if it does we'll go down fighting.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. How sad that ugly attitudes such as yrs surface here at DU...

'at the same time i'm sick and tired of hearing of the "plight" of the palestinians, the poor, innocent arabs.'

Anyone who is incapable of feeling empathy towards both Palestinians or Israelis should reconsider whether DU is the place for them to be....

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. How is caring about both Israelis and Palestinians 'bigotry'??

You might have to explain that one for us mere mortals...

The problem with folk who have a history of making bigoted and ugly comments towards another group of people and a religion turning around and saying they refuse to listen to bigotry (though the definition of bigotry in this case is 'anyone who dares to criticise Israel at all') is that even if it was bigotry they were speaking out against, they're not achieving anything other than displaying their own double standards by pointing to something that's just as bad as what they say, but just against a different group of people...

[OrechDin]

44. The lesson is Jews have changed,

Ever since the Warsaw Ghetto uprising,we changed,we became strong,we fight back.

[breakaleg]

49. So when Jews commit acts of aggression and war it's called

fighting back. It's almost like you have a get out of jail free card for the rest of time...

[dave123williams]

53. Yeah; except this is a defensive move on Israel's part.

If the Lebanese don't like getting shelled, they should disarm Hezbollah.

[dave123williams]

52. Hear hear! NEVER again!

I think a lot of people on the DU don't understand that about Jews. Never again will we be broken. Never.

[MrPrax]

27. 25%?

Hezbollah has only 23 seats of the 128 in the Lebanese Parliament.

Technically they couldn't get 25% because the seats are allocated among the various denominations. They use a ratio of 6:5 when generally allocating between Christian and Muslim religions and then within that, the various demoninations (Shi'ia, Maronite, Armenian Catholic, Druze, Sunni, etc) are alloted a set number of districts they can run for office in.

It's all in the wiki about the Lebanese Parliament.

It's interesting...

[dave123williams]

35. Very intersting...I'm a bit rusty on my Lebanese politics :)

[OrechDin]

20. You could be sure Canada would be rightly sorry they ever did anything so

STUPID .

Hezbollah are not Palestinians,Israel was not in Lebanon.

So what exactly is their excuse or rationale ????

[Andromeda]

43. The only way for Israel to have peace

is to make sure they stay alive. They have done that by standing up to the Arab states who want them dead. They have treaties with Jordan and Egypt because of conflict and loss of life, not with capitulation. An uneasy peace has resulted and if it should happen with other Arab states, the uneasiness will remain as the mind-set of radical Islam views Jewish people as unworthy of life.

That will not change until they can accept Jews as equals.

Most Arab states do not recognize Israel and Jews are not allowed in Saudi Arabia, for instance. This is also true in Iran, etc.

If they (Palestinians, Hezbollah, all Islamic fundies) stopped firing rockets at Israel, Israel would never fire another rocket. It's really that simple.

[TomClash]

8. The 1949 Armistice borders

"with some relatively minor variation" means about 80% of Mandatory Palestine, including all of Jerusalem, the suburbs surrounding Arab East Jerusalem, most of the West Bank settlements and no right of return. What Palestinian leader could accept that?

What racist, anti-Palestinian bullshit. Even the Israeli Government and military doesn't buy this crap.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[breakaleg]

11. I find that entire article offensive.. not to mention filled with

half-truths.

The idea that Israel is this peace-loving nation is laughable. Look at how their IDF and settlers behave in the West Bank today. That certainly doesn't look like a group of people who want peace.

[cornermouse]

13. Are we picking favorites or are we going to take an honest

look at what's going on?

Does Israel want peace and does Hezbollah want to drive them out or kill them? Probably yes and definitely yes.

Did Israel have a right to retaliate. Yes.

Does Israel have the right to attack Lebanon with everything they've got and kill civilians in the process? No. They've gone too far. So-called "collateral damage" is not and should not ever be acceptable. In fact, the term should be outlawed and we should call them what they really are; civilian deaths. Collateral damage sanitizes the reality and tries to make civilian deaths acceptable.

Lying to oneself never really works.

[patdem]

15. You are correct of course...sometimes my blood boils when I hear

Israel wants peace that is why it is killing people...I have not posted so much since the 2004 debacle...Israel has the PERFECT right to defend itself..and should have invaded the south of Lebanon IMMEDIATELY after the kidnappings. And Hezbollah SHOULD be TOTALLY disarmed for the sake of the Lebanonese people.

[dave123williams]

19. Agreed - they should stop the shooting right now, and start talking.

Unfortunately, there's nobody with credibility in the region that can broker the deal.

[TomClash]

28. The US had much more credibility when Clinton was President

and there was a genuine shot at peace with Rabin and Clinton working together. Ohmert wouldn't qualify to be Rabin's errand boy and Bush wouldn't be worthy enough to kneel before Clinton.

[msmcghee]

63. I agree with most of your post . However, . . .

.. I'm not so sure that it is wrong for Israel to retaliate with as much force as necessary to stop the missiles.

An extremely violent response, even one that results in hundreds of Lebanese civilian deaths, could be better than the thousands of Lebanese civilian deaths that could result from dragging it out.

Israel has a right to stop the missiles from flying into her territory and killing Israeli civilians - however Israel decides to do it within international rules of war, IMO.

Additionally, an extremely violent response may help to assure that Hizbollah / Lebanon would think very carefully before launching such a stupid and expensive adventure in the future. This could save many thousand more lives by preventing a repeat of this travesty.

Unless Israel is in violation of international rules of war we should not be telling her how to defend the lives of her citizens from an act of aggression across her borders.

My 2 cents.

[Tom Joad]

21. Mel Gibson is a right-wing lunatic. What has that got to do with the

israel/Palestine conflict?

[OrechDin]

23. Well a lot of the Left wing lunatics share his views on `the Jews`

David Duke for example was wined and dined by Bashar not so long ago.

The extreme left and right wing circles meet with hatred of Jews.

If you read some extreme right wing hate sites on the web sometimes its easy to forget your not reading from some suppossedly `progressive` website such as the ISM`s.

[Tom Joad]

29. Bashar Asad? He is not in the US. Not a leftist.

Neither is the President of Iran.
Try again.

[OrechDin]

31. ahh I see only talking about the USA

ISM is an American group? Leading the Palestinians I guess.

[Tom Joad]

32. What specific charges are you making against ISM?

Yes, it is mostly led by Palestinians in Palestine. One of its founders, Ghassan Andoni, nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize by the American Friends Service Comm. http://www.afsc.org/news/2006/nobel-nomination.htm

What in the world does this have to do with Mel Gibson?
By innuendo you are saying they are anti-Jewish, yet no evidence, beyond their criticism of Israeli policies?

[OrechDin]

39. The ISM is hardly unbiased and hardly `not` anti semitic

AND THATS THEM FACTS.,...THEY ARE ALL WANNABEES...

[Tom Joad]

30. Groups like ISM, Tikkun, Jewish Voice for Peace, do not ascribe

these problems to "the Jews". Yet, they also oppose Israeli policies, very strongly.

[OrechDin]

47. Tikkun is a Progressive Zionist group,and I have no beef with them,

Jewish voice for peace,I do not think has much of a following.

the vast majority of Jews and Jewish organizations are strong supporters of Israel (including the Israeli government which really is a good cross section of most important parties in the Knesset and hence pretty representative of the people)

Jews for Jesus is hardly an organization representative of Jews , for example.

Most of the organizations you keep alluding to , have very little mainstream Jewish support.

Try Bnai Brith or UJA or the American Jewish Congress ,HADASSAH, the Women's Zionist Organization of

America or the ADL for example, they are pretty mainstream with vast majority Jewish support.(who

btw support the Democrats by a high % )

[idontwantaname]

33. the truth is too racist for you?

so perhaps its the truth you have a problem with.

i dont know that i would consider ISM a progressive group. it is a palestinian led nonviolent group. the members of ISM report on eye witness accounts of what happens... not 3rd or 4th hand fabricated stories or myths like some right wing sites.

i would also like to point out that a good number of key ISM folks do not hate jews and dont want to see the destruction of israel.

[Poll_Blind]

37. You call the ISM racist? Do you realize you're calling the following...

...people who support the ISM and who have even gone so far as to have been presenters in "Rachel's words", a play about Rachel Corrie's life in her own words, e-mails, etc.:

Maya Angelou
Alice Walker
Eve Ensler
Malachy McCourt
Howard Zinn

(and that's just a few)

  What kind of smear campaign are you attempting to run here?

PB

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tom Joad]

41. You think the extra s's makes it unnecessary to back up your claim

with anything like... evidence? Just repeat same false propaganda over and over, add s's or write in all capitals (the equivalent of shouting or whining) and you any credibility?
Don't think so.

[OrechDin]

48. Well ask the families of the dead over at `Mikes Place`

in Tel Aviv,on the Tayelet.

Mikes Place was bombed by 2 suicide bombers who were `visiting` from the UK.

They may have received `help`(perhaps inadvertantly) and transportation by ISM individuals who were there at the time.

`The pair entered Israel by land from Jordan on their British passports. They later latched on to members of the International Solidarity Movement, a group of mainly American and European pro-Palestinian activists, in the Gaza Strip.`
`


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/09/wmid109.xml

[Tom Joad]

50. They entered Israel after talking with the border control, who also were

were part of the plot. any Israeli who talked to these men, who picked them up in the taxi, sold them food, any Israeli who saw them and did not turn them in or stop them is just as "guilty" as ISM volunteers.

They were transported by from Rafah to Israel by journalists, not by ISM activists, but that is not the point.

What evidence do you have that the ISM "helped" these men had any part of the plot. the evidence suggests that no one knew of their plot. Not the Israelis who allowed them into the country, the airline (why not accuse British Airways of being part of the plot, or whatever airline they used, isn't that "facilitating" their crime to the same extent as you falsely accuse ISM of doing so.)

Finally, if it is true that ISM members helped these men, why weren't any members arrested by the Israelis on this charge? Because there is no evidence. NO EVIDENCE (thought i use the capitals for emphasis,like you do, you have done that for years)

The International Solidarity Movement opposes all attacks against civilians, such attacks are rightfully banned by international law. The ISM supports peace and justice. This will give lasting peace to all people in the region. That is why people like Jeff Halper support its work. Why Uri Avnery participate in demonstrations with ISM. Many Israelis support the work of ISM.

Just go away, QJ er... OD. You still have stated a false accusation and given no real evidence.

[OrechDin]

55. I don`t plan to `go away`

:bounce:

[Tom Joad]

57. The best-laid plans of mice and men often go awry!

This doesn't even look like a good plan.

[Tom Joad]

42. OrechDin just shares her knowledge,

it is not for us to question it. :rofl:
:rofl:

[OrechDin]

46. I never heard of them , if I get some time I will look them up nt

[iamthebandfanman]

65. lol

i think you need to stop speaking for two huge groups of people. sheesh.

when i talk to ALL of my friends, left or right, about the conflict in the middle east involving insreal they all agree its the government of isreal thats the problem ... not 'the jews' , as you put it.

oh and while im at it, i dont like the term jews. i think its offensive. i prefer hebrews or jewish people. 'jew' is covered in bigotry if you ask me.

[OrechDin]

24. Well ask that Question of the President of Iran maybe ? nt

[dave123williams]

54. There's an easy answer to that.

You can find anti-Semitism on *both* sides of the aisle. I'm reading a lot of it here on the DU, and I see a lot of it from conservative republicans, too. Your political persuasion doesn't have much to do with how you feel about Jews; generally, it's about your religious upbringing. Capice?

[wellst0nev0ter]

58. 98 Percent? What About 100?

the way these propogandists pulls the numbers out of their asses. . .

[Douglas Carpenter]

62. The Myth of the Generous Offer By Seth Ackerman

The Myth of the Generous offer
And this is the offer Israel made at Camp David in 2000:

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations

By Seth Ackerman

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

"The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new “independent state” would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called “bypass roads” that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel"

snip:"In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02)."

read full article:

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations

By Seth Ackerman

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

[Name removed]

59. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Douglas Carpenter]

60. The Myth of the Generous offer

And this is the offer Israel made at Camp David in 2000:

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations

By Seth Ackerman

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

"The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new “independent state” would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called “bypass roads” that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel"

snip:"In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02)."

read full article:

The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations

By Seth Ackerman

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113

[Douglas Carpenter]

61. There is an offer for peace between Arab countries and Israel:

This specific offer was unanimously affirmed by the Arab League and immediately endorsed by the Palestinian leadership in March 2002. However, more or less the same plan has been offered by the Arab League and enthusiastically endorsed by the Palestinian leadership going back much, much longer:

link:

http://www.mideastweb.org/saudipeace.htm

"The Arab Peace Initiative
(translation by Reuters).

The Council of Arab States at the Summit Level at its 14th Ordinary Session, reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government.

Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in which his highness presented his initiative calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land-for-peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel.

Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:

1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries

5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighborliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity

6. Invites the international community and all countries and organizations to support this initiative.

7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union."

[norml]

69. Bigotry pins blame on anti-Semitism

to cover for it's own evil.