I Do Not Buy The Excuses Being Made For Israel's Actions.

[DistressedAmerican]

Two kidnapped soldiers should NEVER be met by massive, overwhelming force largely killing civilians. That action is no better than a suicide bomber on a bus. None at all. Not proportionate to the threat in any way. Plainly IMMORAL. Mostly an just excuse to act with severity against their enemies if you ask me.

People making excuses based on the firing of Al Kassam rockets into Israel seem to miss two critical facts.

First, in the past 5 years these homemade rockets have only killed 8 people. Just over one per year. The country has been the target of many single suicide attacks any of which were more deadly than all of the rockets thus far fired over the past 5 years. The Kassams are just propaganda from Hezbollah.

Why the issue all of the sudden? Justification that's what. They are attacking their neighbors and want a justification. Funny how many of us want to repeat those bogus assertions. To quote Bush, "Israel has a right to defend herself". I just read that at least 36 civilians were killed in Lebanon yesterday by Israeli attacks. That is 4 times as many killed in a single day of Israeli aggression as have been killed by these "oh so dangerous" Kassam's. Where is the proportionality in that? Is that "self defense? Hell No!

Second, people keep talking about a barrage of these rockets landing in Israel as if that was what Israel was responding to. They were not responding to any barrage of rockets. The barrage was a RESPONSE to the attacks by Israel. Their actions are in fact bringing many, many more rockets into their country. What does that gain them?

This entire incursion is yet another example of how the massively overwhelming force of the Israeli's is used against its neighbors with regularity and brutality. All of this with the full backing of our corrupt government.

How many UN Security resolutions on Israel have we vetoed?

It sickens me.

[Deja Q]

1. What would Jesus do?

If Christianity and Muslim are true religions of peace, both sides really need to grow up and read those verses instead. :shrug:

[theboss]

26. Am I the only one who sees the irony in this post?

No...okay...here's a hint.

(Israelis are Jewish).

[Recursion]

47. So was Jesus nt

[zcflint09]

2. Amen

Great post--this is ridiculous. Israel is the US's puppet in the Middle-East, and this reaction is out of control, and is specfically designed to get into a battle with Syria and Iran. Get ready for WW3, Middle-East style.

[havocmom]

12. Part of that may be backwards

US may be the puppet

[mdelaguna2000]

18. It seems that way to me also n/t.

[DistressedAmerican]

20. Hey You!

I never see you post! Great to see ya!

[mdelaguna2000]

31. This situation has me freaked

...bad, bad timing. Frightening snowball prospects, well-summed by other posts to the thread. Completely selfish actions at this time, with no foresight or concern for the potential for huge innocent casualties. Damned politicians.

[DistressedAmerican]

43. Me Too.

Biden has been talking for quite some time about repositioning our troops to deal with the wider regional war that he believed was coming. I was certain he was right about this. Sadly, instability and conflict works for these criminals.

They still act like there is no civil war in Iraq just like there was no insurgency for the first 6 month of insurgency. They sure as hell are not preparing for the wider regional conflict. that would involve admitting they were wrong YET AGAIN.

Politicians have one goals and one goal only, re-election. Most in Washington would bomb their own mother for another term in power. Scum.

[ComerPerro]

3. Killing civillains with bombs and tanks and troops isn't terrorism

but when they start shooting back, that's terrorism, apparently

[malaise]

7. Bingo n/t

[Recursion]

53. Neither is terrorism

They're both war.

I am so frigging sick of apologists for both sides talking about who shot first and blah blah blah. They're both acting warlike, and they're both at war. The number of Palestinians and Israelis who were alive in 1948 and are still alive today is approaching 0. Basically everyone involved in the fighting hasn't lost a damn thing in their life from this situation.

[bdamomma]

4. well wasn't there alot of speculation by some DU'ers

that Isreal was going to start something so that bushie wouldn't exactly start a war in that area to get at Iran? and Iran has already said if Isreal goes against Syria, Iran will protect Syria. bush is getting what he wanted huh?

[Zynx]

8. Israel would go back into the meat grinder of Lebanon just cuz Bushie

says so? I don't think so.

[DistressedAmerican]

16. Then Why Did They In Your Opinion?

I do not back the theory above. But, I do not see you offering one that is more logical. Do 8 deaths over 5 years justify the massive incursion and bombing? Do they justify the killing of 36 civilians yesterday alone?

Why do you think they went back into the "meat grinder"?

From what I see it is mostly Israel doing the meat grinding in that country.

[Zynx]

23. Let's see, Hamas kidnaps, Israel goes into Gaza.

Hezbollah kidnaps, Israel goes into Lebanon. It follows Israeli logic nicely and as a point of fact I would have done the same thing. Hezbollah has been provoking for years and Israel has remained restrained. Now they crossed the line and killed 8 Israeli soldiers and captured 2.

[DistressedAmerican]

29. So 3 Soldiers Kidnapped Was Enough For Them To Re-enter

the so-called "meat grinder"?

There have been so many more effective attacks on Israel that did not produce anything like this. What is different this time?

Is it worth going back to the "meat grinder" with all that entails over 3 individuals? Why this incident? What makes it so much worse or threatening?

What has changed here?

[Zynx]

37. It is a collective series of actions that culiminate in an attitude that

"Okay, that's the last straw.". This shows that Hezbollah is stepping up its attacks and it is developing a greater ability to strike Israel with these new longer range rockets. Israel had been very patient, but Hezbollah finally pushed them over the edge. This is actually very easy to understand. Most countries would have done the same thing.

[DistressedAmerican]

54. Israel Has Been Anything But Patient.

They have attacked Palestinians reguylarly for many years. What is this claim of restraint on your part? How many more Palestinians have been killed in this conflict that Isreali's?

How many helicopter attacks have been launched? How many innocent Palestians killed at the hands od the IDF?

When the number of causalties is so very disproportionately high on the Palestians side, how dare you even suggest restraitn on Israel's attacks?

Do the only attacks you ever internalize come from the Palestinian side? Do you defend every Israeli attack as the fault of the the oppressed Palestinians? Are the Palestinians the sole agressor in your mind?

Now tell me again about all of the restraint they show while bulldozing homes (yet another war crime), ejecting people from their lands and bombing them at will. What a crock.

[malaise]

71. Expect condemnation from all but the US n/t

[dogday]

75. Isn't that they way they always vote?

Check the records and you will see....

[malaise]

78. I know n/t

[sinkingfeeling]

63. How about Hamas 'kidnapped' an Israeli in retaliation for Israel's

shelling of a Gaza beach in June? Then Israel invades Gaza and gets close to the Lebanon border and Hezbollah captures a couple more Israelis, so Israel starts an all-out war?

I supported Israel in 1967-1968 in their fight. But since Sharon and his RW party took over, all we've seen is the 'tit for tat' retaliation. They and Hamas/Hezbollah act like spoiled brats with weapons! I believe this will spread to Syria and Iran and we will have the US and Israel fighting all of the Arab Middle East.

There was a story on MSNBC.com this morning, which has since been pulled, entitled: US stands alone with Israel.

[Carni]

72. Yeah I thought the same thing

As bush har har's for the cameras and feeds his ugly face with BBQ boar (oh excuse me *pig* per him) the whole middle east is going to hell in a hand cart...

This reminds me so much of his behavior during katrina and for that matter during 911 that I have to think this was his end game in the first place.

What really tipped me off to how dire this must be is the fact that faux news just sort of mentions this in passing (at least yesterday they were) like it's no biggie...

I hope to God someone muzzles bushit for this G8 thing...there is no telling what he will inflame.

[Name removed]

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[malaise]

30. And

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/06/22/Columns/Israel_s_building_of_.shtml

[DistressedAmerican]

36. Right!

[Zynx]

42. Just who is actually targetting who for genocide?

Hamas' stated goal is the destruction of Israel. The same is true with Hezbollah and the Iranian government. Just who are the "Nazis" here?

[Swamp Rat]

Just who is bombing Lebanese civilians?

[DistressedAmerican]

60. What War Crimes Are The Palestinians Committing? Lethal Rhetoric?

They have rhetoric and useless Kassams.

Guess what, Israel has NUKES.

Do you really think the talk of Hamas changes that equation in any way? Get real. You are comparing words to actual regular KILLING od Palestinian civilians. You actually think that justuifies anything? Words?

The Israeli's have been committing war crimes against the Palestinians for decades and you still defend it. Hamas uses WORDS to right back and they are guilty of genocide.

You just get more whacked the more I talk to you on this.

[UndertheOcean]

68. The wall (from Gush-Shalom)

[malaise]

80. Wall blasted

People flooding into Gaza from Egypt as border wall blasted.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ On MSNBC TV now

[DistressedAmerican]

81. Wild!

[malaise]

21. Didn't an Israeli Member of parliament

first use that description.

[Zynx]

I don't see how that matters.

[Swamp Rat]

50. Instead of attacking me, why don't you refute my statement?

Is it because you cannot, and therefore resorted to a childish attack?

[whistle]

6. If you can set aside some time, please watch the videos

...of this conference, if you have not already seen them. The two speakers who most reflect what you have outlined in your post are Professor Dr Michel Chossudovsky and Professor Francis A Boyle.



<link> http://www.perdana4peace.org/PGPO/session_video.html

[DistressedAmerican]

9. I'll Check It Right Out!

Thanks for the link.

[DistressedAmerican]

24. The Talk OF Tactical Nukes Is So Messed Up!

Listening to Dr Michel Chossudovsky.

This has some great content. Thanks for sharing!

[whistle]

58. I know and it was given only last month, unbelievable

[SlipperySlope]

11. Excuse for Israel?

I don't buy the excuses for Hezbollahs actions. Israel should stop showing restraint and just turn lebanon into a giant parking lot. Hell, even cover it with asphalt and charge admission.

[DistressedAmerican]

13. Yeah! We Should All Rally Behind International War Crimes!

WHAT THE FUCK?

Have you NO moral center? You are advocating massive war crimes. You are proud of that position? Why not just advocate nuking them?

Just WOW! You are messed up.

[SlipperySlope]

22. Nukes

Why not just advocate nuking them?

Because Lebanon is too close to Israel. But you already knew that, didn't you?

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Richard Steele]

45. Yeah, no kidding.

That's some sick, twisted shit right there.

[DistressedAmerican]

74. Let's try this again.

Advocates of war crimes are sick and evil. You are advocating war crimes. What does that make you?

You would even be happy to nuke them if it did not harm your beloved Israel. You are no better than those committing the war crimes in question. You cheer them on and advocate they do even worse for Christ sake! What is wrong with you? Did someone drop you on your morality center when you were growing up?

Only the sickest of American's cheers on war crimes. You apparently qualify.

[malaise]

61. Are you watching the Security Council hearing

on CSpan1. The Lebanese Ambassador is speaking.

[DistressedAmerican]

64. Thanks. Turning it on!

[malaise]

66. Amazing how the Israeli ambassador likes

to quote UN resolutions after Israel has violated most of them.

[malaise]

76. Bolton on now

expect support for Collective punishment.

[DistressedAmerican]

77. Oh He Loves This Whole Thing!

Bolton is a pig fucker that loves this shit.

What a sickening bunch of criminal bastards we have!

We have embraced war crimes ourselves, why not encourage them from our allies as well?

[Richard Steele]

17. And BushCaballiburton™ is grateful for your support.

[flyarm]

14. isreal is destroying the entire infrastructure of Lebanon..our

naval ships were moved out before the first bombing began...and Isreal has a full naval blockade and cut the highways to syria..

this was not about two kidnapped soldiers..this was a well planned attack..with lots of preperation..
for two kidnapped soldiers one does not destroy another coubtries entire infrastructure!

i believe Isreal didn't want to wait for little lord pissy pasnts to go into iran..

orrrrrrrr,..this is a rovian plan to beef up pissy pants war pres status.,.

i just wonder how many innocent people hsve to die for neo cons to believe they have enough power?

fly

[dogday]

25. I agree with you.. I believe this was a strategic

attack that was planned in advance... That much I can attest to....

[Zynx]

41. Israel has had to put up with six years of Hezbollah attacks.

I'm sure they've thought out a strategy for taking Hezbollah out.

[dogday]

49. One-Sided Opinion

Read up on the history of this area and know what is really happening... Both sides are responsible for this situation.. Both.. to say Israel is innocent is wrong..


Remember Sharon? http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/10/25/sharon.profile/

Read and understand http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13974.htm

[flyarm]

56. amen!..isreal is not the innocent bystander..the lukid's are not

the good guys..and thats who is running isreal today!

but i would never pretend to understand enough of the politics but i have read alot about the lukids..and they scare me more than any terrorist could !

ok flame away..but i will stick by what i have studied about this situation..if you want to flame give me reasons why i am wrong..

fly

[SlipperySlope]

28. Infrastructure = Target

[deaniac21]

32. The situation isreal bad.

[Zynx]

39. On the contrary, this makes Bush look really pathetic.

The world order is melting down and he is sitting looking inept. This won't help his approval rating I assure you. The $5 gas that would result from going into Iran wouldn't help him either.

[malaise]

70. Many more

http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=133381

[azygous]

15. This is it, folks

The plan to attack Iran in late summer is commencing. The second Iran sends troops into the fracas, we'll be bombing them back to the age of the dinosaurs. Isreal is doing its part to help the administration to provoke Iran, as well as Syria, into giving them the excuse they need. The U.N.? Don't make me laugh.

[The Stranger]

33. They offered up the soldiers and Israel said no.

[dogday]

38. Do you have some reference to that?

I have not read that and would like to... Thanks :hi:

[Zynx]

44. They probably made an obscene demand.

I rather doubt Hezbollah said, "Sorry about that, here ya go.".

[dogday]

48. Well unless I have some reference

which I have asked for, I cannot believe, nor can I believe your one-sided opinion as well...

[The Stranger]

59. Obscene is attacking a whole nation of innocents for two people captured.

[The Stranger]

57. References, and check google for more.

ELEANOR HALL: Now, you say that Israel has responded to similar situations in the past by negotiating on the release of prisoners. Is it possible that negotiation for prisoner release could happen still in these circumstances?

DAVID HARDAKER: Israel's Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, is publicly maintaining today, as he has all along, that he will not negotiate with terrorists.

It has, though, become evident that there have been some backchannel negotiations going on, particularly through the Egyptians. And Egyptian President Hosni Mubarek said today that he was very ... had been very, very close to concluding a deal which did involve the release of prisoners, only to see it scuttled at the eleventh hour.

So there are, there's definitely a public statement, which is coming from the top of the Israeli Government, which may be different to what's in fact happening below the surface.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1685693.htm

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/14941841.htm

History of Exchanges:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/01/29/prisoner.exchange/

[whistle]

62. Holy shit, this is clearly LIHOP and MIHOP in nature then

[dogday]

69. Thanks for the information

It gives one insight as to what is really taking place here....

[bloom]

35. It sickens me too.

And people's defense of the disproportionate violence does as well.

It's not tit for tat - as I've pointed out before. Tit for tat implies equality. There is nothing resembling equality.

[Zynx]

46. So Israel should have gone across and kidnapped Hezbollah militants

instead? Is that actually better?

[Swamp Rat]

51. Strawman

[malaise]

82. Latest from Lebanon

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=73966

Lucky me - I'm watching Lebanon TV. The entire city of Beirut is covered in smoke from more airport fires.

This brazen violation of international law is mind-blowing.

[flyarm]

65. yep..it sure would have been better than starting what could be ww3

you bet it would have been better..hey this was a plan..this was the plan to start war on Iran..have you not done any reading in the past 2 years??

all we have heard from many in the journalist field is * was waiting for any excuse to start warwith Iran..many of us heard it was going to begin in late June...so what rock have you been under..this is no surprise to those who have paid attention..

prob the delay was Sharon having the heart attack..but we knew we could count on super Lukid Netinyahu...

fly

[bloom]

73. From what I hear

Israel has about 9000 "kidnapped" Palestinians. So on the kidnapping question - the Palestinians should be able to kidnap about 8998 more people - or the Israelis need to release about 8998 - just to be equal. To be tit for tat. Etc.

[mopinko]

40. innocent soldiers?

really, i heard them described by someone as innocent. (sorry don't remember where.) and kidnapped? this language, jesus.
they were fucking soldiers. not that soldiers deserve to die, but c'mon.

and someone on this thread asked, how many people have to die for these monsters to feel like they have enough power. the answer is- infinity.

[Lilith Velkor]

52. IBTL

can't talk about it, even now

:eyes:

[bridgit]

67. having dealt out terrorism herself; Israel now conducts all manner of...

surreptitious, moussad-like behaviors i.e. spying on the u.s., and they all around her with the sanction of the american/israeli lobby, american taxpayer monies, and the targeted monies of jews worldwide

when she is caught not playing fair (which does occur), she responds from within a vengeful psychosis destroying the peoples she would make peace with by further destroying food stuffs & life style components on what she considers biblical proportions that only she claims to have an understanding of...having wrote the book herself...

bizarre ~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

[The Backlash Cometh]

79. Israel made a mistake.

But I think they have always used the tactic of upping the excessive force in response to any attack. I think that Bush and Republicans think that's the answer to putting down terrorists, but I think the world has had its fill of dead civilians as casualties of war. Now, it's personal. It's one thing to have dead civilians as a casualty of war, but when even the good guys are now attacking civilians as a strategy, well, then I guess we common bakers, teachers and candlestick makers are just going to have to do something about it.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

83. this country has certainly gone to war for less

so I guess the answer to your question is that Israel found it politically or militarily advantageous to do what they are doing. I don't recommend trying to make sense of this part of the world. Your head will inevitably explode.

[OETKB]

84. Both sides now

are using a revenge motive to secure "justice" for their case. This will eventually have its price. The details of who did what to whom will become irrelevant when the "payback" reaches a stage that will start to consume the rest of the world. There are those who feed on this tit for tat policy, waiting to have the justification to reap even larger destruction. The justification is to build up enough sympathy, no matter how misguided, to provide a protective shield for their criminal deeds. I have a strong belief this includes Al Quaeda in this situation. Unfortunately we, the United States, may be the reciprient of that rage. Time will tell.

Only with the implementation of some semblance of effective international law will the political killers be effectively dealth with. This incremental slide into worldwide conflagration will otherwise continue. Any time one side overreaches with their response, they give a sense of self-righteousness to the other side, and will lead to in-kind or a worse response.

Watching these events unfold naturally leads to the above gloomy unease, but unless some real rational leadership arises, we are doomed to tribal warfare.

[Lithos]

85. Locking

The number of stereotypes and hateful myths being bandied about on all sides of the argument are extremely counterproductive and are not constructive in learning or understanding the debate of the current issues.

Lithos
DU Moderator