Ahmadinejad: Islamic Countries Should Eliminate Israel

[democratic]

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-07-08-voa24.cfm

ran's president has called on Islamic countries to eliminate Israel.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad spoke Saturday in Tehran at the opening of a regional conference of Islamic nations. He said the basic problem in the Islamic world is the existence of what he called the Zionist regime. He said the Islamic world must mobilize to remove the problem.

The two-day meeting is aimed at improving security in Iraq. Foreign ministers from many Arab countries are attending.

[bluestateguy]

1. Is it just me?

Or are there more fanatics in positions of leadership all over the world these days?

[Behind the Aegis]

2. Not just you...the lunatics are, indeed, running the asylum!

As for this particular one, I am sure he was just misquoted again. :sarcasm:

[Zhade]

49. Well, the headline IS false.

"Zionist regime" does not equal Israel. It can be read that way, but the two are separate entities.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. They are often used interchangeably in the Arab press.

So, if he is against the "Zionist regime," would he hail a Jewish theocracy in Israel? Somehow I doubt it. This man has called for the ethnic cleansing of Israel, so I think he is parsing words. He'd never make it in the I/P forum.

[Zhade]

60. Lots of sane DUers can't make it in the I/P forum.

Too much rightwing bullshit from Israel-firsters (NOT counting you among those).

I stopped going there ages ago, but not before I saw my share of rightwingers like Gimel get booted, thankfully.

[Ghost Dog]

70. Yeah, they should use a more neutral term, like 'Apartheid Regime'.

That never accepted UN terms and occupies the land of others through military action, police action, and judicial fiat.

I don't think many of the early Kibbutzniks would have called themselves 'Zionist'?
(I confess, I'm not sure what the term is supposed to mean or imply any more).

[SeveneightyWhoa]

3. Um, look at the source.

I'm sure the Voice of America went to great lengths to mistranslate, distort and exaggerate what Ahmadinejad actually said.

[Poppyseedman]

7. Source other than VOA

http://www.timesofoman.com/newsdetails.asp?newsid=32772

"Times Of Oman" says the same thing, unless they are a propaganda arm of the bush administration

[bilgewaterbill]

8. The poor guy is soooo misunderstood. nt

[cprise]

13. Even al Jazeera mistranslated this last time around.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1788481,00.html

Also:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12790.htm

http://www.counterpunch.com/leupp05302006.html

[President Kerry]

35. No. Ahmadinejad is a lunatic and a piece of shit.

Just read him quoted from any source. He's an extremely foolish and, given weapons, dangerous person.

[Imajika]

4. Oh, Ahmadinejad is just misunderstood...

Surely, he either didn't actually say such things or these utterances are America's fault. If he did say such things, we should start by examining the root causes of his feelings. It can't be that any Islamic leader actually wants to wipe Israel out.....can it?

[Endangered Specie]

6. Not like they hadn't tried before

[PCIntern]

10. Where is the outrage from those

who cry incessantly for a 'solution' to the Palestinian 'crisis'? How do you make peace with people who incessantly call for your destruction as a people and as a nation? This is not a political ploy, anymore than Hitler's assertions that he would eradicate the Jews were political. These people are speaking the truth as they see it- it's not spin or attempt to 'negotiate'.

[rainy]

20. Israel is the problem. They came in and stole the land, bulldose

property, gardens, people's homes,people. THAT IS THE PROBLEM. Then they say you have to leave because you are not jewish or we will reduce you to second class citizens and steal your land some more.

[papau]

30. What part of splitting up territory is hard to understand - or that losing a

war has consequences as to territory?

I wish only for peace in the Mid-East, and Taba was almost that peace - indeed if the nonsense of demanding the destruction of the Jewish state of Israel via "right of return had been dropped by the PA we would have had that peace.

What is going on now is evil - by both sides.

But this PA good, Israel bad non-logic is, IMHO, not only not logical, it is non-productive of peace.

[Zhade]

50. I disagree.

The Israeli GOVERNMENT, and its Zionist leanings, are the problem.

I can't blame Israelis for what their government did decades ago. Many of them weren't alive then, most of them want peace and don't like the IDF killing innocent Palestinians.

The very formation of Israel WAS unjust, unfair, and bloody, but I don't think the Israelis who had no part in the creation of their country deserve to pay for their forbearers' crimes.

[PCIntern]

5. Yeah...

and that's why Israel should make 'deals' with every country/organization/terrorist/regime quickly in the Arab world. After all, if you can't trust those who swear your destruction, who can you trust?

Yeah, that's the ticket...

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

[VegasWolf]

9. Bush->Entire Middle east->FUBAR. nt

[cprise]

11. I doubt that.

Both Iran's president and supreme leader are on record as opposing the Zionist regime only.

Claiming "elimination of Israel" is like saying an intention to "end the Apartheid" regime is the same as wiping-out South Africa.


The last time this boogeyman-propaganda flared up, it was a blantant mis-translation. See article and discussion at:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1788481,00.html
http://www.peopleforchange.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=30596&hl=

[Pavulon]

12. Yeah he loves Jews

I am sure they would all live hand in hand. Maybe he was mistranslated when he said europe should take them back.

One statement is allowed for stupidity, or mask slipping, but repeated statements have a clear tone.

[Imajika]

14. Now, you know...

...it is better to bury our heads in the sand and pretend that Islamic extremists don't exist. Afterall, everything in the world is America's fault. There can't actually be lots of Muslims that consider we Westerners dirty Kafir's can there? No siree, better stick that head right back in the sand and deny Ahmadinejad even said such things.

[cprise]

16. Speaking of head in the sand...

...did you read those links?

[Imajika]

21. Yup..

..and I've read them, as well as lots of similar commentary. I also read Juan Cole's Informed Comment regularly. Problem is, I don't buy the apologist spin. Ahmadinejad is on the record far too often denying the holocaust and insisting the Israel be wiped out. It is pretty clear what his opinion of what should happen to the Jewish state is. You can deny it all you want, but everyone knows Ahmadinejad wants Israel gone. It is kinda silly trying to play games with his repeated comments on the matter. Go ahead if you want, but we all know better.

[cprise]

24. Did he deny the holocaust? Hmmm....

No doubt, he's an agitator. But from what I read his position is that the Holocaust is the founding excuse for a Zionist state in the ME region, and Iranians have had to swallow that history as received truth--- from Europeans. Discovery of the Holocaust is NOT a part of the Iranian experience, and much of what Iran has had to answer to vis-a-vis western assertions have been lies (including incitement to war, for which Iran has suffered dearly).

He subsequently invited European scholars to debate the issue. In that, I do not see a denial.

And you didn't read the links, because otherwise you would have known this.

[Imajika]

32. Oh stop it...

"But from what I read his position is that the Holocaust is the founding excuse for a Zionist state in the ME region"

Yes, that is his position. Be serious here man, Ahmadinejad is not asking for a bit of further clarification - he is denying the holocaust. You can't fool anyone with that jive about the "Iranian experience" or having to "swallow" received truth from the Europeans.

Do you believe that the Holocaust occured? Do you believe Hitler slaughtered approximately 6 million Jews? Do you believe the vast and completely obvious body of evidence demonstrates this to be true? Or, perhaps, you have had to "swallow that history" and being as it is not "part of your experience" also need further evidence?

Why do you try to deny what Ahmadinejad clearly states? I am not in favor of attacking Iran. I doubt many on this forum are. But let us not bury our collective heads in the sand explaining away the obnoxious comments some Islamic leaders are making.

When people call out Ahmadinejad for the incidiary crap he utters, it does not mean we endorse Bush's preemptive war policy.

[cprise]

36. No quotes, no evidence for his 'denial'.

No reference to the articles I listed or their contents. Just the "serious" impression you have from mass media of what Ahmadinejad "really means".

Well that goes right off the scale on my bullsh!t meter, thank you.


The VOA article even states that Ahmadinejad was advocating regime change (which apparently only the USA is allowed to get away with) ...but it strongly asserts this statement must refer to genocide. It is one of the most intellectually dishonest assertions that I've seen in months. And people who believe it are whistling to the tune of false propaganda.

I am not saying that Ahmadinejad is a swell guy, or that his words carry pure intentions. OTOH, our press is saying the opposite and yet again pushing us toward war under false pretenses.

[Behind the Aegis]

57. .

The president provoked a world outcry in October when he said Israel should be "wiped off the map." He repeated his line on the Holocaust today, saying: "If such a disaster is true, why should the people of this region pay the price? Why does the Palestinian nation have to be suppressed and have its land occupied?" source

This is an example of a form of his denial. There are other instances.

On edit: Some more...

"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," Ahmadinejad said in a speech to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan, according to a report on Wednesday from Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting.

"The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets," he said. "(It) deals very severely with those who deny this myth but does not do anything to those who deny God, religion, and the prophet." source

[chookie]

62. Let's change the emphasis in your quotes

"If such a disaster is true, why should the people of this region pay the price? Why does the Palestinian nation have to be suppressed and have its land occupied?"

What he is saying here is, why, if it was the Nazis who killed 6 million jews, why then were not the Germans forced to pay the Jews full reparations and provide them extensive territory in which to establish a secure homeland? Why was it chosen by the victorious western powers that they should go to Palestine and displace the people living there and force a long war upon the region, and bring one upon themselves?

"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," Ahmadinejad said

Myth does not mean "falsehood or lie" or distortion of facts, not necessarily. Why did Ahmadinejad not just say LIE!!!, if that is what he meant? Myth can mean something on the order of narrative or theme that expresses the ideology of a culture and that helps define the beliefs of a people, a central organizing principle of a people. What he may be saying here is that the notion that Jews were subjected to horrific suffering and massive death, and that this may occur again at any moment, and therefore they feel strongly and absolutely have the unquestioned right to displace Palestinians and fight their neighbors, and that God himself granted them rights of possession of the region in perpetuatity, is the central organizing principle of Israel, but which is disputed by their Muslim neighbors and not shared as an ultimate truth.

""They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," Ahmadinejad said. See note on definition of myth above. What he might mean here is that the Zionist ideal of recreating Israel in the western most part of the Middle East has taken priority, for some, over the wise and moral teachings of the Hebrew prophets. Why do I suggest this? Because he brings up the same thing about Christianity! He chides Bush and the west for not practicing the path of peace and reconciliation that Jesus preached, and states clearly that all Muslims revere Jesus (PBUH) as a great prophet.

I am not a Farsi speaker, but I bet neither are you. Neither of us know what Farsi word he used that was translated into English as "myth." The fact that he uses a word translated as "myth" -- as opposed to one clearly translatable to "lie" -- makes me wonder if he is perhaps making a more subtle point than you are suggesting when you highlight parts of his phrases.

You're finding what you are looking for, and you do not question your assumptions....

Clearly he uses inflammatory speech, and the Iranian people would be better served by a more temperate leader, but I don't buy the notion unquestioningly that he is a madman -- equivalent to Hitler -- who plans to murder Jews on the scale of the hideous holocaust. But yes, he has no use for Israel, but how he intends to act on this, if at all, given the fact that Israel has one of the most powerful and lethal armies on earth, including nukes, who has as an ardent ally the US, who has nuclear option on the table and is devising a plan of attack as we speak in defence of Israel -- I don't think he will risk the destruction of his nation in a major conflict

Another point -- outside of Israel, there are more Jews living in Iran than any other Middle Eastern state. Is it because the legs of all Iranian Jews are stuck in cement, and they cannot escape, or maybe they are okay about living there, because they have been accepted there for many centuries? As in Iraq, they have been living there for many centuries, mainly in peace, but there have been some episodes of violence against small numbers of Jews. In modern times, whatever violence against Jews that has occured -- and the numbers are not large (under two dozen) -- have not occured because they are Jews, but because they have associations with Israel (some were accused of spying or Israel; some were accused of agitating for Iranian Jews to move to Israel, which, yes, modern Iranians regard as a Zionist state that has displaced a people and which has brought violence upon the whole region.

[MrPrax]

27. See...

It's a waste of time...they know and you hate Israel...

It's always settled logic with them...

[Zhade]

51. No one said that, of course. And HE didn't say what the VOA says he did.

The "Zionist regime" does NOT equal Israel, or all Israelis.

[cprise]

15. And what tone is that?

Frankly, I don't find your smarmy statements adding anything to the conversation.

[Pavulon]

34. His comments speak for themselves

He is obviously hostile to israel. wipe off them map is pretty clear.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. Read this...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/06/11/news/iran.php

[cprise]

23. IHT prefers to disregard a word-for-word translation

...in favor of a contrived explanation involving Iran govt's own website, which incidentally, I visited myself when Juan Cole first raised the issue.

The only Iranian translation I saw that approached a genocidal meaning was published in a student newspaper. No doubt there are Iranians who want to hear outright saber-rattling. But that's not what this is.

Even MEMRI translated the speech as specifically calling for elimination of the regime. A fact that IHT/NY Times ignores.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. not difficult to understand.

So basically the non-Farsi speakers are right, and the Farsi speakers are wrong. :eyes:

This nut has called for Israel to be moved to Europe, Canada, or Alaska, so when he says "getting rid of the regime," he means all of Israel. It isn't difficult to understand that he and many like him, and his apologists, feel Israel should not exist, at least not in the Middle East!

[cprise]

26. MEMRI and Juan Cole speak Farsi.

Are you even paying attention?


This nut has called for Israel to be moved to Europe, Canada, or Alaska, so when he says "getting rid of the regime," he means all of Israel.

Well I guess mass-relocations can go both ways? How shocking that a Muslim would contemplay out-loud what amounts to actual Israeli policy. Yet in the process of listening to it, I do see his point... Once justified by one side, rash measures can be applied both ways AND in this case could conceivably be justified as a "European problem".

Sorry, but I will not salivate and bark on-cue this time. If anything, I would say this drama is deliberately being played-up because the USA doesn't know what to do about N. Korea.

[Imajika]

39. Hmmmm...

"Yet in the process of listening to it, I do see his point"

Ummmm...So, do you agree with mass relocation of Jews to Europe?

You didn't answer any of my questions in the other thread. Lets cut it down to one. Do you believe the Holocaust occurred and that approximately 6 million Jews were slaughtered by Nazi Germany?

To be honest, based on this post of yours, It almost seems that you might sympathize with Ahmadinejad? Just a little bit maybe?

"I would say this drama is deliberately being played-up because the USA doesn't know what to do about N. Korea."

Ahmadinejad has been making these incidiary comments long before North Korea flared up again. The debate over the sanity or danger of Ahmadinejad has been going on for months - well prior to Kim firing off his latest round of Scuds and duds.

[cprise]

40. When you remind people of missing WMD, are you defending Saddam?

And when did you start loving Saddam and hating America?

--

I don't need to be cross-examined by you. Go that? I am NOT the subject of this debate, and your attempt to focus attention of me is a dishonest tactic.

[Imajika]

43. Touchy.....touchy...

My previous comments:

"Ummmm...So, do you agree with mass relocation of Jews to Europe? You didn't answer any of my questions in the other thread. Lets cut it down to one. Do you believe the Holocaust occurred and that approximately 6 million Jews were slaughtered by Nazi Germany?"

And your response:

"I don't need to be cross-examined by you. Go that? I am NOT the subject of this debate, and your attempt to focus attention of me is a dishonest tactic."

Interesting response. And with that, I'm gonna go ahead, until I hear otherwise, and assume you do agree with the mass deportation of Jews back to Europe and that the Holocaust did not occur as history clearly demonstrates it did.

"When you remind people of missing WMD, are you defending Saddam?"

See, I have no problem answering your questions. I don't remind people of the missing WMD's. I thought they'd be in Iraq, and I still don't believe occupying the place was the right thing to do. For me, WMD's are pretty much immaterial.

"And when did you start loving Saddam and hating America?"

Again, no real problem answering your question. I am fine with killing Saddam, love America, and still don't want to occupy Iraq.

[cprise]

45. Not helpful.

How nice of you to "answer my questions", which were only posed to get a point across about your behavior. But you knew that. If you want to know my opinions about the Holocaust, then dig for it with the search button; it is nothing that would score you points in this debate. You also didn't read the links I posted, where all of those sources assume the Holocaust was real.

You seem to be parroting the broadcasted opinion of the mass media, and turn to smearing the messenger when you hear otherwise.


Getting back to the topic: You purport that Ahmadinejad denies the Holocaust. Where are the denials?

[ozone_man]

42. So, do you agree with mass relocation of Jews to Palestine (in 1948)?

It seems that Europe got rid of it's Jewish problem by exporting it and exterminating it since the Inquisition on through the Holocaust. One should be careful when throwing stones in a glass house.

[megatherium]

52. As I understand it, the Jews were not relocated by the Europeans to solve

their Jewish "problem." Instead, the Jews themselves conceived of the notion of re-establishing their homeland in Palestine, and sought to emigrate there through the first half of the 20th century. And it was Britain that sought to prevent Jews from entering Palestine, even after WWII and the Holocaust. (One of the extraordinary stories of the immediate aftermath of WWII was the voyage of the Exodus 1947, a ship carrying 4500 Jews, to Palestine, but which was prevented from getting there by the British.) Soon thereafter, of course, Israel declared its independence -- to ensure that no Jewish refugees would ever be denied sanctuary again.

[ozone_man]

74. I think they were.

During the Inquisition, 200,000 Jews were expelled from Spain to North Africa and Turkey and other parts. When conversion to Christianity by some of the wealthier Jews angered the aristocracy, a law was passed denying them certain forms of property ownership, the beginnings of racial antisemitism. That essentially was the end of their Jewish "problem". It was much later in Germany, though as early as the First Crusade in 1096 (the First Holocaust) there were Pogroms against the Jews there (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade). But throughout this period, there was persecution stemming from religious antisemitism which changed into modern antisemitism after the Enlightenment.

So, recognition of the state of Israel is really part of a story that goes back a long way. Relocation, sometimes forced, sometimes not, is a big part of that story. Christianity already took care of it's Jewish "problem", while Islam is still an intolerant medieval religion. It is still mired in the religious antisemitism that Christianity dealt with 500 years ago. I think there is more to the story than religion though, due to the oil in the ME. Is it really Democracy that we want in the ME or constant turmoil, so that we can control the oil wealth? Looking at the past overthrow of a Democratically elected president in Iran (1953), and installation of the Shah, it would seem that Democracy is not the goal.

[Lurking Dem]

76. Just a note

They (Iran) do not recognize "Israel" so they refer to it as "the Zionist regime" and Israelis as "Zionists".

[glennont]

17. Isreal is an inserted tumor in the Middle East

Regardless of your sympathies, Isreal is/was never a legitimate state. It's very existence insures turmoil. There is no answer, and the British are most to blame. The belief was the Middle East would remain globally positioned in the Middle Ages forever. Total lack of foresight and arrogance on the UK's part. The absurd notion that the more wealthy powers could and should partition the people of the world is just insanity itself. No country, even Nazi Germany, has ever bred more arrogance then the British, and the US is it's natural successor. Powerful enough to play a starring role on the Global stage, but blinded by self import and not so subtle racism. Absolutely they want Israel gone, she's the spoiled child of power corrupt nations and will never hesitate to call on her parents to fix the mess she is. Israel is a burr under the saddle that is the Middle East. What would you do? What's the answer.

[cprise]

19. It's like inserting Apartheid S. Africa into the ME and expecting peace

And that's what Israel currently is with Zionism. Actually, with its "Greater Israel" policies it is worse.

And as for Ahmadinejad's words, no one has been able to convince me that calling for an end to "the Zionist state" (with clarifications that it's not aimed at the people of Israel, no less) is any different than calling for an end to a "communist state" or "Apartheid state".

[papau]

28. "never a legitimate state. It's very existence insures turmoil"-The Nazi's

used the same language - and the mid-east Muslims/Arabs supported the Nazi concept re "legitimate states" in the 20's, 30's and 40's.

Sound like we have the same thinking being sold on DU these days.

Interesting.

[MrPrax]

29. Good post...

and welcome to DU

:hi:

[cprise]

31. LOL!

I've been on DU since, what, 2001?

But thanks anyways. :hi:

[MrPrax]

33. LOL...back

well actually the reply was to glennont (7 posts)...

But you can have a belated :hi: as well

and you have good posts as well...and since your old school DU, you can also have a

:yourock:

[cprise]

38. I must have been away for too long.

These threads are so... thready! :)

[Jim Sagle]

44. Answer: Get over it.

[Zhade]

53. I have to agree.

It would be wrong to throw all Israelis, who had no part in the usurpation of land not theirs, to the wolves. They didn't affect the land grab, and they shouldn't pay for it.

So what should be done to fix this mess, Jim?

[Jim Sagle]

55. If I had a complete answer for that, I'd be the first.

We could start by withdrawing our troops from Iraq. Our occupation there is a major regional inflammation.

[Zhade]

61. Hey, we agree again!

Stop, you're scaring me!

:D

[Jim Sagle]

69. Great minds think alike.

:toast:

[SensibleAmerican]

67. How dare you call Israel a tumor

n/t

[cali]

75. Your language is

interesting. I think one can look at the creation of Israel, deem it unfair and unwise, but what's the point? Tumor or burr under the saddle or spoiled child; Israel is there and though the legitimacy of its creation can be questioned, its legitimacy as a nation really can't be. It's like insisting that Gore is the real President.

I wish people did talk more about solutions on these threads. I've offered mine before: Ideally, Israel would agree to withdraw to the '67 borders, The Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel within those borders. Then they'd sit down and horsetrade. Palestinians could agree to cede some of the settlement land that does not interfere with a contiguous state in return for dedicated access between Gaza and the West Bank, either a tunnel or railway. Jerusalem is a tough one; my solution would be a city governed by the UN. The right of return? Agree to a certain number of Palestinian refugees and pay reparations.

What's your solution?

[DELUSIONAL]

22. This guy is a stupid ass**** --

and so is cheney/bush and gang.

And then huge majority the Israelis in a recent poll wanted their army to assassinate (nice word for murder) all of the Hamas leadership.

What is it with fanatics?

I swear there are far too many escaped lunatics in positions of power -- I really don't know if this world can handle any more bat shit crazies at the helm.

The whole earth is in a fragile state of balance -- she is plain old sick from the misuse and abuse of the human parasites -- we need to STOP and take care of Mother Earth and forget the revenge and an eye for an eye crap in the bible and other "religious" books.

GROW UP.

[PCIntern]

37. "Inserted Tumor in the Middle East?"

...and I suppose that the old USA is an inserted tumor in the Western hemisphere? After all, look what we did to the native tribes, indigenous species, etc. I am going to follow DU rules and not say exactly what is on my mind.

I have no wish to be tombstoned...

[Imajika]

46. Ya see...

..what should happen according to some is, we should all give back the land to those whom may or may not have previously been on it. Let us take this back as far as our nimble researchers can take go.

The US can give back all its land to Native Americans, who in turn will research all the Native tribes they fought to seize it, who will in turn give it back to all the tribes the fought to gain control of the territory, and so on and so on and so on.

We will reproduce this throughout the rest of North America, Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, and South America. We will try to divine who had the land originally and determine exactly what those boundries were - then we'll give it back to whatever descendants we can find, and they will have to figure out who they seized it from and give it back to them. This is the only way, for many, we can expunge the great colonial evil.

It will be fun when we go back and establish the Roman Empire, even if that land will have to re-divied up to those the Roman Legions marched on to get it.

Such silliness. Israel is an established state. People need to get over it. Attack Israel and they are gonna kick your ass. Stop lobbing rockets into Israel and blowing up Jewish women and children on buses and in restaurants and some sort of peace agreement can be reached. Is it fair that Israel demands things are settled on their terms? Nope. Such is life. Life ain't fair and it never, ever will be. Deal with it and move on. The Palestinians are only making things worse for themselves continuing on as they are. Israel isn't going anywhere, and the economy of the Jewish state does reasonable well inspite of the low grade war they are constantly in. On the other hand, the Palestinian economy sucks and is not getting any better. If the Palestinians want to better their lot in life, they will have to get the best deal they can get and make peace with Israel. Fair or not - that is just the way it is.

[megatherium]

47. The Palestinians needed a Gandhi. Instead they got an Arafat. nt

[hollowdweller]

58. The Palestinians are being used by the other Islamic countries

They all hate the Jews however rather than fostering economic development or education in the occupied territories the other Islamic states would rather buy them guns and explosives.

If the Palestinians had adopted passive non violent resistance UN troops would be in the West Bank and Gaza and they would be well on the way to having their state, unfortunately they are apparently too stupid to understand they are being used as sort of a 5th column by the other countries who don't have the balls to have another go at Israel because they KNOW they will get their asses kicked and lose a bit more land maybe?

I think the Palestinians should have their state so they can slack back on killing Jews and work on killing each other which they are doing now some anyway. Once Israel finally achieves total separation Palestine will be kind of like LA if the cops pulled out and turned it all over to the Crips and the Bloods. Anybody who had anything on the ball there got out a hell of a long time ago and all that's left is a bunch of stupid arab rednecks that all they know how to do is fight. Ungovernable.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[megatherium]

71. Perhaps, then, peace is no longer possible in the Middle East.

If the very existence of Israel is illegitimate, and the Palestinians are willing to conduct suicide attacks--and nonviolent resistance is futile--then all that the future of the region holds is an unending low-grade war. For peace is not possible with people who indoctrinate teenagers to carry out suicide bombings that deliberately target women and children, nor is peace possible with people who deliberately bulldoze peace activists.

[Pavulon]

73. I am sure they

went to the trouble of killing her with a bulldozer just to make a point. I have operated a D-6 and other heavy equipment. You can not see over the blade (at times), depending on the grade of the land and its position.

She proved it is a bad idea to be in the blind spot of a earth mover.

BTW I worked with similar equipment in the ANG and safety was a contestant issue. I never saw a soldier killed, which has happened, but have seen property damage by a driver who could not see and limbs broken by someone doing something unsafe or not paying attention.

Israel does not target protesters for death. If they choose to do so the m16-a3 is a better tool than the D9.

[Zhade]

54. According to some? Who? No one here has said that.

You can rail against made-up arguments all you want, but it's not connected to the reality of this discussion.

[barb162]

64. that's a great post because it's real world

[HuffleClaw]

41. and a month from now we'll learn his comments were once again

'mistranslated'. just as predicted, a new onslaught of anti-iranian propaganda.

[Zhade]

48. Point of order: "Zionist regime" does NOT equal Israel.

So, the headline is misleading at best.

(Not that I LIKE the guy, it's just that I prefer accuracy over lies from U.S. government mouthpieces like VOA.)

[wisteria]

59. The man is angry and full of hate. I believe, he believes everything

he says.

[barb162]

65. I agree. And he's not crazy, he's just a full-blown hater

[judaspriestess]

63. He said the Islamic world must mobilize to remove the problem.

um ok. and go back to being fucking barbarians. Actually thats a step up from this asshole.

Why are they so hateful? Oh wait a minute, why is Bush so hateful too, I just answered my own question.

[Porcupine]

68. Regardless the Islamic world is learning how to kick U.S. out.

and it is our continued threat of the large blow if Israel is threatened that keeps Israel viable. When we lose the war in Iraq (almost inevitable at this point) it will be very clear that the U.S. is a paper tiger outside of it's nukes.

Once the threat of the U.S. hammer fades little bits of Israel will slide off the map. Fortress Israel cannot survive without an outside supply chain. How will that be supplied when the U.S. has been booted out of the Middle East?

[Pavulon]

72. The us policy

of not using massive, uneven force to kill civilians in mass should not be mistaken for inability to do so. Not encircling falluja and reducing the city with 155 ,b-52 and b1 runs does not mean we can not.

The US undermanned the invasion, rumsfeld threw out the zinni plan. Cut the force required to secure and stabilize iraq by 1/3. The total casualties inflicted in Iraq is less than day one of d day, at omaha alone.

The US controls the air and sky over iraq and could do the same over ANY ME nation in hours or days. That gives the ability to turn off the lights, food, and water. A nation in that state can not mass troops, communicate, or fight a true OPEN war.

Israel can be supplied by sea or air with weapons capable of inflicting the standard 20 to 1 kill ratios. Better tactics and training make a more deadly

The US will maintain a presence in Iraq for many years. Paper did not reduce the mechanized forces in GW1, killing 100,000 in a few days.

Israel is not going anywhere. They tried 3 times and lost(land, the occupied territory was won from arab nations in war).

Do not mix up insurgent warfare with open war. Open war is what the military trains to do. Kill toys, troops, and infrastructure.