Airstrikes and artillery pound Gaza

[spindrifter]

Thursday, June 29, 2006; Posted: 9:47 p.m. EDT (01:47 GMT)

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israel rounded up members of the Hamas-led Palestinian government Thursday, and warplanes fired a rocket into the Palestinian Authority's Interior Ministry building in Gaza City.

Early Friday, Palestinian and Israeli sources said offices of President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah Party were also hit in an airstrike. Details of the attack were not immediately available.

The Israeli military said it targeted the Interior Ministry building because it was being used for "directing and planning terror activities." There were no immediate reports of casualties, but the building was in flames. (Watch images from the aftermath of the strikes -- 7:02)

<snip>

"Kidnapping Palestinian lawmakers and holding the Palestinian government hostage will neither strengthen Israel's hand in bargaining nor bring any good to anyone in the region," Erakat said.

<snip>

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/29/israel.soldier/index.html

[mike_c]

1. the whole world is watching....

The genocide of Palestinians continues.

[cigsandcoffee]

2. The Palestinians are not without their sins.

Not by a long shot.

[Disturbed]

3. Shit! I mistakenly thought that Peace was going to break out

when Hamas finally recognized Israel as a state and dropped it's vows to destroy the Govt. in that region.

[cigsandcoffee]

4. If I were Israel, I'd trust Hamas as far as I could throw them

[Name removed]

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[ladjf]

8. Israel is building up some bad karma.

[Name removed]

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[cigsandcoffee]

10. I think you've only embraced one side of this conflict

Meanwhile, I noticed that Yasser Arafat died with billions in his Swiss bank accounts that was supposed to go to his people - billions sent from Europe, America, and - Israel (so much for your "piss" comment).

And did Arafat use whatever money he didn't steal for schools, hospitals, and infrastructure, or did he continue his people on a road of war, exploiting youth with visions of martyrdom (they'll go to heaven if they just blow up themselves and some elderly Israeli ladies lunching by the seashore), financing terrorism, and maintaining poverty? The latter, unquestionably.

Hamas are terrorists, plain and simple. They will continue the Palestinians on the path set out by Arafat - death, misery, and perpetual violence. The Jews may not be the good guys here, but as much (if not more) of the blame goes to the Jihadists on the other side.

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. Right. The world ignored the poor Palestinians all these years.

:eyes: Arafat starved his own people and banked the billions he was given for his people. I'm sick and tired of this Israeli hatred on this board. Hamas has sworn to never stop the killing until the blood of EVERY Jewish man, woman and child is flowing through the streets of Israel. So far, they have kept that hateful promise. I guess the Israelis are suppose to just let Hamas continue their killing sprees. The Palestinian people CHOSE TO ELECT terrorists to lead their country. They really want peace. I can tell from their votes.:eyes: Bad Israel. Bad, bad Israel. They need to stop defending themselves. Don't forget, they're only a teeny tiny Jewish State surrounded by Arab nations who HATE them. Never mind that now...Israel is bad, bad, bad. Arafat could have had peace during the Clinton years and HE chose not to have it. Place the blame where it belongs. He not only chose to not accept peace, but he stole the aid money the world gave him for his people and then those same people elected a terrorist group to lead them. This anti-Israel crap is just that...crap.

[cigsandcoffee]

17. I don't think you meant to reply to me, because...

...I tend to agree with you.

[in_cog_ni_to]

19. I did intend to reply to you.

This anti-Israel shit is ridiculous. I never read anyone putting ANY blame on those poor deprived Palestinians.:sarcasm: It pisses me off. You have a friend in me.;)

[cigsandcoffee]

24. Man, you're preaching to the chior

I really do not understand why there is so much sympathy for the Palestinians. I suspect it is their poverty and status as the underdog, but people don't understand that this is engineered by their leaders to maintain recruitment and dedication in a brutal guerilla war.

The Palestinian leadership is and does everything a liberal should despise - they are warmongers, racists, oppressors, and thieves. And yet it is more often the Israelis who are taken to task. I really don't get it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. I know I am, but we're far and few between on this board. We need support.

:) Have you ever visited the hateful I/P forum? That place is eerie. :scared: The hatred for Israel just oozes out of the place.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. Come join us!

G-d knows we need the help!

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. I HATE that forum. I leave there feeling very dirty.

:(

[Scorpio.2000]

145. Private Venue

Most posters in the I/P forum (besides a few regulars) that support for Israel don't last long. Posting privileges are taken away if too much support is shown, or if feathers of the "progressives" get ruffled. It's a somewhat closed club with a few token "jews" (israel supporters)

[Mojorabbit]

50. Perhaps but

the people, mothers and children are suffering now. This new govt has not been given a chance to suceed. The world cut off all financing. The people again suffer.CNN stated today that eighty percent of the palestinian people want dialog with Israel. It is just like here in my opinion. We come on this board and vent but the govt does not listen to what we say, they ignore our letters and phone calls. I don't see an international call for talks or for peace anywhere. Not for our war or theirs. TPTB seem all to happy to use all their fancy weapons and the people die. I hate war. I hate the thought of people huddling in their homes with bombs dropping.

[Clark2008]

54. Because their leadership is the same - but with money.

eom

[cigsandcoffee]

62. Not even close

Israel has had leadership that was openly liberal, and the left maintains a healthy presence in their politics and population.

To date, the Palestinian leadership has ranges only from criminal to terrorist. The poverty is a recruitment tool and means to get sympathetic global support. It works, too.

[Clark2008]

52. OK - so I guess it was OK that people were killed and

forced off their own damn land to make room for a country that didn't exist until 1947?

Look - my first husband is Palestinian - his mother's first husband was killed and she was forced to walk, on foot, with three small children to Jordan, leaving her family home of several generations. Sound like good times, huh? :sarcasm:

My current husband is Jewish. My Jewish husband HATES that Israelis, having suffered Hitler, want to turn and become the butchers that they suffered through. No - their hatred is not as extreme, but why would you so malign a whole group of people as to prevent their abilities to earn a living, own land, have a country and be productive? It's doesn't make sense.

It's not a hatred of Israel - it's a hatred of extreme religiosity and prejudice - and that's what most of the Israeli government has become.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[in_cog_ni_to]

66. And why did it have to become the greatest military power in the

Middle East? Because it's surrounded by Arab countries that attacked them and HATE them and want to see the state of Israel GONE. Just ask the President of Iran. Now why does Israel attack Palestinians? Could it be because they attack Israel? Israel isn't going anywhere so the Israel haters need to just accept that fact. It's hard to believe that Liberals support Hamas. I find this fascinating.

[Name removed]

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[cigsandcoffee]

26. What utter rubbish

My father lived in Warsaw during the 1939 raid, and later spent time in a Nazi POW camp. Your comparing what happened there to Israel's relationship with the Palestinians is monumentally ignorant and offensive.

Palestine has enjoyed much aid, comfort and opportunity for peace from Israel and the rest of the world. They've chosen a different direction, and one that wont serve them well.

[mike_c]

31. then I hope he would be ashamed by what Israel is doing today....

eom

[cigsandcoffee]

36. His opinions are his own

What makes me ashamed is that so many Americans have latched on to the idea that the Palestinians are some kind of heroic Che Guevarra figure to be heralded as champions of the underdog.

[Clark2008]

57. My Jewish husband is.

[Behind the Aegis]

113. self-delete

[Selatius]

32. Palestine is not a place of comfort, I'm afraid

The living conditions in the West Bank and Gaza Strip have been so bad that Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela both compared them to the living conditions in the Bantustans of Apartheid South Africa. While not legally apartheid, the humanitarian suffering under the Israeli occupation on the ground is equally real and equally tragic. Israel, as an occupying power, is obligated to address the humanitarian concerns of the occupied population.

[cigsandcoffee]

34. Why didn't Yasser's Swiss billions help with that?

Got a theory?

[in_cog_ni_to]

35. Stop picking on Arafat! He was a man of PEACE!

:sarcasm: Never mind that al-aqsa Brigade. They were peace lovers too.:eyes: Pay no attention to the terrorist groups Hamas and al-aqsa. Please. Yasir needed that money worse than his starving people.:sarcasm:

[mike_c]

40. and Ariel Sharon was a murderous butcher....

One thing they have in common is that neither of them are particularly relevent any longer. Invoking Arafat is like invoking Clinton's penis.

[Name removed]

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[Clark2008]

58. Psssttt... Most Palestinians didn't like Arafat, either.

They suffered through him because he at least gave them SOME hope.

But, don't think of a milisecond that most of them liked him. They didn't.

[cigsandcoffee]

63. They sure appear to like Hamas, though.

[in_cog_ni_to]

68. They sure do. They elected Hamas...a KNOWN terrorist group.

But that's OK. Israel is bad. Hamas is good.

[Clark2008]

86. I never said the terrorist wing of Hamas is good.

However, how is it NOT terrorism to keep encroaching on land you've said you've given up? And rolling over families with tanks?

I'm not excusing the Palestinians who bomb innocent bystanders either. I'm just saying that Israel isn't without fault.

[in_cog_ni_to]

96. Israel haters sure make it seem like the Palestinians are

without fault. They could have had peace. Arafat chose their fate for them and they elected Hamas. No one here said Israel is without fault, but you cannot expect Israel not to defend itself from Hamas terrorists.

[Lars39]

99. They've moved beyond defense and are well into offense at this point.

[Clark2008]

102. But what are they defending themselves against?

Some errant bombers? Some kids with rocks?

They have nukes and the Palestinians have bupkus.

The solution is to let the Palestinians have some land to call their own and stop being, forgive the horrible reference, "Indian givers."

[Moochy]

104. And you act like Palestine has a functioning govt.

Collective punishment anyone?

[Clark2008]

81. Hamas has two wings - the political and the terrorist.

Just think of it this way: one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighters.

[cigsandcoffee]

84. Freedom fighters do not celebrate the targeting of civilians

But terrorists do.

[Clark2008]

89. Israel also targets civilians.

In fact, since Palestine doesn't have an Army, any action they take against Palestine is targeting civilians.

I'd re-think what you just said. It's not tactically correct.

[cigsandcoffee]

103. What a strange parsing

Combatants conducting highly organized guerilla warfare against a nation are technically civilans and should thus not be targeted? Are you kidding?

[in_cog_ni_to]

112. Unfortunately, Israel haters don't kid.

:(

[mike_c]

123. it's amazing how many of those "highly organized combatants..."

...were children, or olive harvesters-- who would have known that harvesting olives is such a potentially devastating tactic?-- or just folks out for an evening walk when the gunships came. And Jenin-- who could have known that all those apparently ordinary poor people were hardened guerilla soldiers?

[cigsandcoffee]

125. Israel targets militants

If those militants use civilians for shields, then some civilians will die along with them. There just isn't a way around that.

[mike_c]

130. this is utter tripe-- israeli soldiers and settlers shoot children...

...playing in the street, they shoot unarmed olive pickers, they fire into crowds from helicopter gunships, they kill teenagers trying to take shortcuts across Palestinian fields, they prevent ambulances from reaching the sick and wounded so that they die of medical neglect-- I don't know whether you're simply deluded or whether you're actively trying to divert attention from those murders. And then there are the deaths that occur indirectly because of the siege of the territories, and the apparent sport killings by Israeli settlers. Have you no shame, sir?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

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[Selatius]

37. What does Yasser's crookedness have to do with Israeli obligations?

Nothing. It's a non sequitor and is immaterial to the Israeli government's legal obligations to the occupied population.

[cigsandcoffee]

38. Hardly

That money was intended to aid his people, and quite a bit of it came from Israel. This goes to my point that this poverty is not only avoidable, it's engineered by the very leaders that you want to receive more money.

You're unwittingly a part of the problem that continues the cycle of violence and poverty.

[Selatius]

41. It's still immaterial to Israel's obligations.

If the Israeli government knew for the longest time Yasser was skimming money from the fund to funnel into his private accounts, then the Israeli government was foolish not to find an alternate route to deliver aid, but I doubt that for a second excuses Yasser's fraud because it doesn't. Why wasn't the UN consulted to deliver aid? Why wasn't the ICRC consulted to deliver aid instead of Yasser's men? Why was billions in aid in the form of cash instead of in the form of food and medicine and supplies?

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. Why is THAT Israel's fault?

Now it's their fault for not babysitting Arafat and the money meant to help his people? Wow. People will find fault with Israel no matter what they do. They give Arafat money, he hordes it and it's Israel's obligation to make sure he isn't hording it. Interesting.

[Selatius]

47. International law is explicit with respect to occupying powers

They are to see to the humanitarian needs of the occupied population. Yasser was a joke and a whackjob; anybody could have seen that, and you're telling me the Israeli government was so incompetent as to not know that they were dealing with a crook and a sham?

Since you never bothered to challenge the central point of my last post, then you admit that the Israeli government knew for years that Yasser was pilfering the fund and yet elected to continue to funnel money his way. That, if anything, demonstrates negligence on the Israeli government's part and fraud on the part of Yasser. You did not say anything with respect to seeking alternate sources of funneling aid to Palestinians, nor did you say anything about the bulk of aid being in the form of cash advances instead of goods and supplies.

[in_cog_ni_to]

53. Please. Israel was not Arafat's babysitter. As far as cash advances,

I know nothing about that and that's why I didn't comment on it. Israel gave the crook the money as they were suppose to do and now it's their fault he kept it for himself. That make sense. Blame Israel for all the crap Arafat did. Arafat was recognized as the leader of the Palestinian people, was he not? I recall him being in talks at Camp David with Clinton for YEARS. What's your excuse for him turning down the peace Barak offered at the Clinton Camp David Peace talks? Arafat could have had peace and turned his back on it. Clinton spent the better part of his administration in peace talks with that asshole. If he really wanted peace, he could have had peace and now it's Israel's fault that he turned his back on it. Nice.

[Selatius]

61. Israel was under NO OBLIGATION to give to a CROOK

Your argument explodes right there regardless of what Clinton wanted. If you were told to look after a group of poor people and decided to give your aid money for the poor to the local gang boss because he happened to be the guy with the most guns and the most influence on the block who "protected" the neighborhood, is it just the fault of the crook for sacking the cash alone? Or is it also equally your fault for being so incompetent as to give the thug your money and expect the money to reach the people that needed it? Come on!

Given such a situation, the only thing I would've done was end the occupation and move back to the Green Line.

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. So Arafat turning down a chance for PEACE means nothing. Everything

is still Israel's fault. That's what I thought.

[Selatius]

79. Wrong, the David peace talks are irrelevant to the humanitarian question

You confuse issues of statehood with humanitarian day-to-day issues.

Regardless of what was happening at Camp David, the law says Israel must and should see to the humanitarian needs of the people because it is the occupying power, and funneling money to somebody who steals the money and knowing that he is stealing the money is just a demonstration of incompetence on the Israeli government's part in light of the PA's fraud and corruption.

If Israel did not want to give money to Arafat, then it should've funneled the money through UN organizations or other humanitarian groups rather than to the PA itself, or they could've done another thing, which was end the occupation and thus free themselves from addressing Palestinian humanitarian issues altogether.

More direct, Arafat was never going to seek peace. Peace would have meant his organization having no reason to exist. Ariel Sharon was right in thinking it was a disaster to do business with Arafat.

[Clark2008]

59. Because they have the power, incog.

Think for a moment. They had the power to circumvent him, but they didn't and still don't.

You know this. Think for a moment who has the power and it will become more clear to you. The Palestinians don't have it - and, no, I'm not forgiving them their murderous actions, either. I'm just admitting that they have nothing - no money, no brokerage, not a shred of hope.

The Israeli's used Arafat as a pawn and, to his discredit, he let them.

[cigsandcoffee]

45. Why did the Palestinian leaders...

...betray their people to maintain a perpetual state of war? The responsibility lies with them alone, as the chosen representatives of their people.

[Selatius]

51. The Palestinian Liberation Organization Yasser ran was not elected

It was a resistance front, not a government entity. The fact that you had a "choice" between psycho militant A and psycho militant B doesn't lend it any more credibility than David Koresh and the Branch Davidians electing folks from among them to run daily chores being called a democracy. The Palestinian Authority of today draws its lineage from the PLO, and the fact that it holds elections doesn't make them anymore legitimate. You cannot hold an election in an atmosphere where somebody who advocates peaceful means of problem solving is killed by those who advocate the annihilation of the other side, and if you limit the choices by assassinating the doves and intimidating the moderates, of course you're going to get people voting for Hamas, of all groups, because of a lack of choices. I mean look at it. You've got rival factions of the PA such as Fatah vs. Hamas gunning each other down in a power struggle prior to what is happening now.

[cigsandcoffee]

55. And yet the world embraced Arafat as a leader

How could they have undermined him by bypassing his organization while expecting him to be a primary in the peace process? You neglect to acknowledge the stranglehold he had on his people and any foreign policy optimists.

How would it look for a President to host Arafat at the White House and then tell him that he couldn't be trusted with aid money? Goodbye, peace process.

[Selatius]

Arafat holds no credibility in my eyes

He was a thug, and the fact that everybody coddled him as the "leader" of the Palestinians was a failed attempt at trying to force an illusion on a reality that refused to be buried. If Clinton was serious about peace, then he should've been threatening to cut military funding to Israel for every day Israel expanded the settler colonies in the West Bank/Gaza Strip during the entire eight years of Clinton's presidency. If Clinton wanted to pursue a two-state solution, then the least he could have done was stop Israel from expanding those colonies throughout the 1990s, and the least he could have done was freeze Yasser's assets.

[cigsandcoffee]

72. Whatever you think of him doesn't address the point.

World leaders had no choice but to accept him as a leader and partner in any peace process - and that tied their hands in the distribution of aid.

He spectaculary failed his people, and Israel can't be blamed for that shortcoming.

[in_cog_ni_to]

74. Sure Israel can be blamed for that shortcoming.

Everything is Israel's fault because they have a military to protect their country from surrounding countries who hate her. The fact IS, Arafat was considered the leader of the Palestinian people. World leaders had to deal with him, he was a crook and it's Israel's fault.

[Selatius]

85. Arafat was a crook, and that is Arafat's fault, not Israel's

Israel's part only comes in with respect to the occupation. If Israel doesn't want to address the humanitarian issue, rather than funneling money to the crook, perhaps Israel should've simply ended the occupation and relieved itself of any obligation, but Israel didn't, so Israel should only be blamed as far as being negligent is concerned, not for fraud, which is the fault of Arafat.

[Selatius]

95. He failed his people and so did the Israeli government.

Whether you like it or not, Israel is the occupying power, and that entails responsibility to the Palestinian people directly, not to a third illigitimate party. If Israel is unable to see to the humanitarian needs of the people, then Israel should get outside help, or Israel should withdraw from the Bank and the Strip completely back to the Green Line and avoid the question altogether.

[mike_c]

56. The territories are under occupation and under siege....

The occupation and annexation of Palestinian land contravenes international law, it is an act of aggression. One would think that is enough in itself to maintain "a perpetual state of war."

[cigsandcoffee]

64. They've had multiple opportunities for statehood.

And continue to toss them all in the bin. That this remains an occupation (and a very loose one, at that) is no fault of Israel.

[in_cog_ni_to]

75. Bingo. I recall a Palestinian election where they elected

a KNOWN terrorist group. Arafat turned down peace and as far as I'm concerned, by electing Hamas, so did the Palestinian people.

[Clark2008]

92. Hamas has two wings - the political and the terrorist.

I've said it once, already. I'll say it again.

Hamas IS a political group.

Hamas HAS a terrorist faction.

They're not necessarily the same - not in that part of the world.

Edit to make clear: The Republicans are a political group who have elements who are are as well-funded and murderous as the terrorist wing of Hamas. Understand?

[in_cog_ni_to]

101. LOL. Right. A terrorist wing and a political wing. OK.

Hamas is an innocent in all of this. The Palestinians elected the political wing of Hamas.:eyes: When did that new meme start? Hamas has a political wing and a terrorist wing. LOL. That's funny.

[Clark2008]

105. Funny that you don't know that. Sorry that you don't.

It's not my fault you didn't.

[in_cog_ni_to]

109. Did I say it was your fault? No. I think it's a very naive view of Hamas.

Hamas, a terrorist group that has been around forever. All of a sudden they have a 'political' wing? Silly. I don't believe it for a second. Hamas is Hamas and the Palestinians voted for them. Who said they have a 'political' wing? Hamas?:eyes:

[cigsandcoffee]

106. So did the IRA

And yet, nobody was fooled about their deep connectivity.

[in_cog_ni_to]

111. Now stop that! Hamas has a nice little non-violent political wing.

:eyes:

[mike_c]

82. the occupation is not the fault of the occupiers...?

Now that's as convoluted as logic gets, my friend. As for the numerous opportunities for statehood that Palestinians have enjoyed, I invite you to cite a SINGLE such opportunity you would accept in America. Would you accept colonization in exchange for statehood? Would you accept life in a permanent prison, under nominal control of your enemies as the price of statehood?

[cigsandcoffee]

87. Oh, Please.

During the last big chance for peace and statehood, Arafat received virtually everything he asked for. He turned it down, and thus the "occupation" drags on. Now enter Hamas stage left.

[mike_c]

94. I'm sorry, that's simply not correct.....

I presume you know that. :shrug:

[cigsandcoffee]

114. Look, if you want to maintain some kind of Che Guevarra...

...fantasies about the Palestinians and their struggle, then have at it. It's clear you won't be swayed, and neither will I.

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. Had he built an infrastructure with that money the poor Palestinians

may have some HOPE now. Isn't that what all the anti-Israel people want? HOPE for the poor Palestinians? Perhaps they wouldn't have elected a terrorist group to lead them? Maybe they would have homes and jobs now? The Israel haters can't have it both ways. Europe, America and Israel gave that asshole BILLIONS in aid money and he chose to let his people suffer instead and horde the billions for himself. Now that's Israel's fault? Of course it is. Everything is Israel's fault. Arafat keeping the billions for himself has everything to do with the Palestinians having NOTHING now.

Israel isn't going anywhere. Hamas had better get a grip on that fact.

[Scurrilous]

129. Had he (Arafat) built an infrastructure with that money ...

...Israel would be bombing it right now.

Infrastructure = targets for the IAF.

[in_cog_ni_to]

131. Of course they would be. I thought this whole

Israeli hatred excuse was that the Palestinians are oppressed? If Arafat had built an infrastructure, created jobs, and gave his people hope you don't think they would have stopped blowing up buses in Israel? Israel doesn't attack Hamas for no reason. Blame it all on Israel. The Palestinians and Hamas are innocent bystanders.:eyes:

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

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[Behind the Aegis]

138. Worms

It only does that if one conflates Israel and Jews.

[in_cog_ni_to]

144. True. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

140. But calling Israelis murderers doesn't?

:eyes: It's quite obvious there are many Israel haters on this board. What thread have you been reading?

[Lars39]

143. This one.

And I still think you are using the words interchangeably to insult people.

[in_cog_ni_to]

147. No I'm not. That's just you reading something into it that isn't there.

The people posting against Israel, hate Israel and the governemnt. I have NEVER said anyone hates the Jewish people. There is a difference you know.

[Name removed]

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[Lars39]

139. I've followed the thread. *You* introduced the word 'hate'.

[in_cog_ni_to]

142. SO. It's TRUE. Whether you want to admit it or not.

The thread speaks for itself.

[Lars39]

146. Indeed it does.

[Selatius]

6. Bombing civilian infrastructure violates the Geneva Conventions.

What if somebody bombed several Israeli power plants to deprive civilians of electricity and bombed Israeli government ministries to cripple public services? Would the Israeli government or the Israeli people like that?

It is just as wrong as firing Kassam rockets at Israeli towns beyond the Gaza Strip because civilians are the target.

[spindrifter]

7. It's an Article 51 violation.

[cigsandcoffee]

13. I'm sure they didn't like it when their kids' discos...

...or family vacation spots were targeted by state-sponsored Palestinian sucide bombers.

Still, I don't remember any talk of the Geneva Convention in the wake of those past attacks so much as I do some folks saying "oh, it's those poor, desperate peoples' only means of fighting back!

[Terran1212]

16. Probably because Israelis are not occupied

Or being hit with 7,000-9,000 shells over a 2 month period.

[cigsandcoffee]

20. Israel targets militants...

...The palestinians target teenagers and old ladies. I have a hard time seeing how so many people can give a pass to what are some of the most violent, hateful and racist people in charge of any government.

The Palestinaian leadership has rejected countless opportunities for statehood and peace. They elected a group of terrorists. They made a choice.

[Terran1212]

23. Yes the Palestinians should fight the IDF

They'll go a lot farther that way. And that the Palestinians have rejected these Yahweh sent peace deals is a myth.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[cigsandcoffee]

49. I excuse no crimes against civilians. By law, neither does Israel.

But you can not say the same for the Palestinians, who have made a national ethos out of celebrating terrorist attacks against Israeli (and other) civilians. Some of these people cheered loudly for the attacks on 9-11, if you'll remember, and sold Bin Laden toys on the streets. Much unlike Israel, this is a culture that celebrates death, and wants to remain at war.

[mike_c]

60. then will you join me in condemning Israel for it's crimes...

...against Palestinian civilians? I likewise despise the deaths of Israeli civilians who are not participating in the occupation.

[Clark2008]

65. Crickets.

BTW, I completely agree with you. The murderous action of each side are deplorable, but what the Israeli defenders aren't seeming to understand is that Israel, alone, has the power to stop this. The Palestinians have no power, financially or militarily, to do much of anything except retaliate in fear.

[Behind the Aegis]

71. So are you in agreement with Mike?

"I likewise despise the deaths of Israeli civilians who are not participating in the occupation." notice the "disclaimer?" Ask mike_c is opinoin on the death of the 18yo who was kidnapped and murdered!

[in_cog_ni_to]

80. What did he say, Aegis? I missed it. n/t

[mike_c]

97. my opinion is that his death is a tragedy occasioned by his violation...

...of international law. It is most unfortunate.

[Behind the Aegis]

120. Basically..."he is responsible for his own death."

I got it.

[Clark2008]

98. I didn't say I agree with everything mike-c has said or posted.

I agreed with the ONE post I said I agreed with.

Don't put words in my mouth. You're grasping at straws and sound like a Swift boat. I agreed with the ONE fucking post I said I agreed with. I've not read everything mike-c has said or posted or opined about.

My God.

[Behind the Aegis]

117. Try reading my post AGAIN!

I ASKED you a QUESTION! I didn't put words in your mouth, that was you!

[mike_c]

126. see your own subject line in response to me....

"he is responsible for his own death." Since those words don't appear anywhere in my comments, I'd agree that you appear to have a habit of putting words in other's mouths.

[Behind the Aegis]

128. That was a interpretation of what you said.

You should have replied there. If you actually read the exchange between Clark and I, you can see it was she that was putting words in my mouth, not the other way around.

On edit: Changed "translation" to "interpretation."

[cigsandcoffee]

73. 'retaliate in fear'

Please explain how blowing up old ladies lunching by the shore or teenagers partying in a disco amounts to "retaliation in fear." I can't wait to hear this.

[in_cog_ni_to]

78. Israel can stop this? Right. Israel should just

let the suicide bombers go into Israel and blow up their people. Yeah. Israel should stop protecting their country and their people. The Palestinians chose a path of terrorism by electing Hamas. Where's the outrage about that? This is so bizarre.

[Clark2008]

83. No... Israel can let the Palestinians have some decent land

(you know, with some water) and let them build a community. They shouldn't be so frightened of Hamas - or at least not openly so.

Give the Palestinans some land, let them have their own government and, eventually, but not overnight, there will be more peace.

BTW, how is bombing a family on a beach protecting Israel? That's what started all this latest dust up - even before the kidnapping of the soldier.

[cigsandcoffee]

91. Decent land like Bethlehem?

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-07/03/content_242791.htm

Palestinians take control in Bethlehem

A Palestinian flag fluttered in Manger Square as Palestinian police marched into Bethlehem Wednesday, taking control of the ancient West Bank city after Israel withdrew under a US-backed peace plan.

The second handover of territory in three days, and the passage of another day without serious security threats, raised hopes that 33 months of deadly violence may be winding down.

Israel's departure from Bethlehem followed its withdrawal from much of Gaza and an upbeat summit meeting Tuesday between Israeli and Palestinian prime ministers in which they moved forward with the "road map" peace plan, a three-phase blueprint for establishing a Palestinian state by 2005.

Among the plan's first steps are a halt to violence and a gradual Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian cities and towns.

[in_cog_ni_to]

115. No, actually only the entire state of Israel will suffice. n/t

[cigsandcoffee]

119. Imagine what Bethlehem is worth in potential tourist dollars

No small consession, that. I'd certainly call it "decent," and yet people will continue to perpetuate the myth that the Palestinians receive nothing of value.

[in_cog_ni_to]

121. I know. The poor oppressed Palestinians.

:(

[in_cog_ni_to]

93. They shouldn't be so frightened of Hamas?

Hamas leader is the one who said Hamas will never stop killing the Iraelis until the blood of EVERY JEWISH man, woman and child flows through the streets of Israel. Now you expect Israel to embrace Hamas? I don't think so.

BTW, how does blowing up old ladies in a market or kids at a disco or families on a bus help the Palestinians?

[cigsandcoffee]

100. A far cry from 'bombing a family on a beach'

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150355528023&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

"While sticking to its demand for the establishment of an independent inquiry into a blast on a Gaza beach 10 days ago that killed seven Palestinian civilians, the Human Rights Watch conceded Monday night for the first time since the incident that it could not contradict the IDF’s exonerating findings."


I'd like to see Hamas open an inquiry in to whether or not their suicide bombers mean to kill civilians.

[Scurrilous]

118. What HRW actually said (not JPost's version):

Israel: Gaza Beach Investigation Ignores Evidence

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/06/20/israb13595.htm


"An investigation that refuses to look at contradictory evidence can hardly be considered credible. The IDF’s partisan approach highlights the need for an independent, international investigation."

Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch

[mike_c]

107. Israel is not retaliating against suicide bombers...

It is conducting collective reprisals against civilians, rounding up and arresting elected government officials, and destroying civilian infrastructure in response to the capture of an IDF soldier who was participating in the siege of Gaza and the death of a settler who was violating international law-- and who had been warned by the U.N and numerous other international bodies to leave the occupied territories.

[cigsandcoffee]

69. I will not condemn Israel, but...

...I will condemn those who have commited such acts in discord with their laws.

Will you join with me now to solidly condemn the Palestinan leadership for their open support of terrorism and vows to wipe Israel out of existence?

Or will you tell me that blowing up old ladies and teenagers is the only option open to those poor souls?

[mike_c]

76. I won't parse excuses with you....

I've told you that I despise murder and oppression. I see who is the oppressor and who is oppressed. The irony is that I have virtually no real empathy for Hamas or radical islamists and deep cultural respect for Israel, yet Israel's actions make even the violent extremists in Palestinian society seem neccesary and appropriate. If I were Palestinian in the territories I would likely be a "militant."

I cannot condemn the Palestinian leadership for struggling against oppression any more than I could condemn the African National Congress even when they resorted to violence and terror-- or more to the point, I can decry it, but I understand it, and admit that in their place I would likely respond similarly.

[cigsandcoffee]

77. So you'd blow up old ladies to acheive your goals, then.

I can't interpret your comments any other way, regardless of your meaningless claims about despising violence. If you excuse the targeting of civilians, then you condone it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

124. The crickets say "yes." n/t

[Selatius]

21. The Palestinians have no recognized government of their own

So "state-sponsored" is arguable at best. The Palestinian Authority is not recognized as a state entity like the Israeli government. The West Bank and Gaza Strip were annexed by the Israeli government after the 1967 war. Regardless, as I had said, bombing civilians or civilian infrastructure is wrong in any case regardless of who commits the acts.

[cigsandcoffee]

33. Fine, then - government sponsored.

Apples and apples.

bombing civilians or civilian infrastructure is wrong in any case regardless of who commits the acts

And yet beyond a muted and parsed condemnation, very little is said about this most frequent tactic of the Palestinian leaders. In my opinion, and compared to the outrage expressed againt Israel, this makes it seem more like a tacit support.

[Selatius]

39. I don't disagree with that

Too often those with bigoted grudges often veil their intolerance behind valid criticism of state policy while choosing to ignore equally atrocious policies of non-government actors such as Islamic Jihad, but I've fished out more than enough closet bigots from places like stormfront.org to know where who lies where on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

[Moochy]

110. always measuring the decibel levels

Hey how come you didnt criticize with volume X when event y happened to team B.

fuck that old tired line.

[cigsandcoffee]

116. They can speak volumes.

And do.

[mike_c]

90. just out of curiosity, do you likewise defend the U.S. war on terror...?

It is also a militaristic response to terrorism against civilians-- the precise analog of targeting discos and vacation resorts.

[cigsandcoffee]

122. I certainly do defend a US war on terror

But not the one that has been conducted. We had every obligation to respond to 9-11, and the botching of that response by this administration doesn't negate that there was a need for one.

[Moochy]

108. And that makes it right.

Oh the poor innocents are only on the israel side?

So the stray bullets that strike children from a bullet from either side ...

"these poor desperate peoples" oh yeah they are fucking rich, lets not kid ourselves everyone is just dying to get a peice of that cash cow that is being a palestian. Wasnt Bill gates a palestinian?

[lonestarnot]

18. This action was just sooooooooo wrong on so many levels.

And I think the people of Israel were also against it. It was a cowboy tactic.

[stop the bleeding]

9. this seems to be ratcheting up the action - Interior Ministry building

:wtf:

[spindrifter]

11. Looks like more than ratcheting to me!

[stop the bleeding]

12. the thing is most Americans probably don't even know that

this is going on. I wonder how far it will go?

[lonestarnot]

15. OMG I just posted a question and went back to GD and saw this.

Has Israel been taken over like we've been taken over?

[mike_c]

43. my compliments to the mods for allowing this discussion in GD....

Thank you. This is international news, and although perspectives are often polarized, the rest of the world is watching and discussing the events in Gaza-- DU should too. Thank you for permitting this discussion in GD.

[Moochy]

127. Another thanks!

I'm glad I didnt have to stumble into the IP/basement for this! thanks!

[magellan]

67. What a shame the people in charge on BOTH sides

...can't grow the hell up for the sake of the people. This fight has been going off and on for nearly 70 years. SEVENTY years. Just think how poisoned each new mind is before they're even out of diapers, simply by virtue of being born into such a situation.

And all because two bunches of thugs aren't willing to concede to the other and act civilly.

The Israeli government is as wrong as the terrorists. They both kill and destroy to make their points. You don't measure the murder and harm of civilians by degrees of wrong -- it's 100% wrong, always, no matter WHO does it and for what reason.

I support the Palestinians and the Israelis who want peace. There are plenty of them.

[WiseButAngrySara]

88. What Israel is doing is murderous. The Victim has become the

Victimizer. I honestly see parallels between Israel and Nazi Germany, sadly enough. You'ld think that of all people in recent history that would have compassion and perspective on the immorality of senseless racial hatred, it would be Israel.

[Lithos]

148. Locking

Dupe at several levels.

Lithos
DU Moderator