Government ignores illegal Arab building

[Dixie Flatline]

What about the Arabs?
Yoram Ettinger
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3208750,00.html

Illegal building by Israelis in the West Bank is considered a criminal offence, requiring expedited moves to obtain demolition orders.

That's how the justice ministry flexes the muscle of the judicial system. But is that really the case?

More than 1,000 illegal buildings have been built each year by Jerusalem Arabs since 1997. Only 30-40 are destroyed each year.

Tens of thousands of illegal buildings are built each year by Arabs in the Galilee, the Arab Triangle, the Negev, Ramla and Lod. About 100 are demolished each year.

Since 1967 there has been more Arab building in Jerusalem – a majority of which is illegal – than Jewish building. But the Israeli government flexes its muscle against a few dozen Jewish buildings in Hebron and the rest of Judea and Samaria, while keeping its eyes tightly closed in the face of the plague of illegal Arab building.

Full story:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3208750,00.html

[Coastie for Truth]

1. Very Interesting Article

I have not done my usual background detective work on Yoram Ettinger, but I am sure others will -- and will provide actual credible links.

[Tom Joad]

14. He opposes a Palestinian state. He supports war on Palestinians.

Opposed evacuating illegal settlers from Gaza.

http://yoramettinger.newsnet.co.il/Front/NewsNet/reports.asp?reportId=125542

He also supports "Swift, offensive, comprehensive and preventive war on the terrorists' own breeding ground, not a protracted war of attrition, targeted killing, limited military operations, defensive and reactive tactics. Flexing a disproportional military muscle would restore Israel's long term deterrence posture. "

He does not elaborate as to what that means. We can only imagine. Since "terrorists" come from villages and cities of the West Bank and Gaza, it seems to be saying that massive bombardment and punishment of entire cities and towns is called for.

"Flexing a disproportional military muscle" beyond what we have seen already? In Jenin. In Nablus.
This man is calling for war crimes that we have yet to have nightmares about. He wants to do to these cities what happened in Fallujah by US forces. Or maybe another Dresden or Hiroshima. Ask him.

[Coastie for Truth]

16. Thank you - That is what I was looking for

not ad hominems.

I appreciate the time you took to research and analyze this (not the least bit facetiously, but actually sincerely).

Again, thank you.

That is what DU should be.

[JAbuchan08]

2. I believe that it is legal to discriminate against Arab Israelis

in the housing market. Frankly I'm not upset at them for building illegally, as they often cannot purchase housing legally because of discrimination.

Of course this has only been going on since the birth of Israel, so I suppose its time the Arabs "get over it"

[Coastie for Truth]

3. Erroneous belief, erroneous conclusion

:shrug:

[JAbuchan08]

4. This is what I was referring to: from wikipedia:

""Approximately 93 percent of land in the country was public domain, including that owned by the state and some 12.5 percent owned by the Jewish National Fund (JNF). All public land by law may only be leased, not sold. The JNF's statutes prohibit the sale or lease of land to non-Jews. In October, civil rights groups petitioned the High Court of Justice claiming that a bid announcement by the Israel Land Administration (ILA) involving JNF land was discriminatory in that it banned Arabs from bidding." "

edit to add link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arabs

[JAbuchan08]

5. I will take back what I wrote about underrepresentation in parlaiment

they may indeed be underrepresented percentage wise, but as I do not know enough about Israeli politics I cannot say whether this is due to overt racism or some other factors.

[Tom Joad]

10. Legal Status of Jerusalem Palestinian residents. NOT Equal.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Jerusalem/Legal_Status.asp
From Btselem, Israeli human rights organization. (emphasis and parenthetical comments mine. Please check the link and read the whole article... not very long, but very informative)

<snip>
Palestinians hold the status of "permanent resident" of the State of Israel.(This is in Jerusalem. Many Palestinians in Israel do have citizenship status, but are then treated as second or third class citizens, not as unwelcome foreigners as many natives to Jerusalem are treated) This is the same status granted to foreign citizens who have freely chosen to come to Israel and want to live there (therefore, a person from San Francisco, CA, whose ancestors can be traced for centuries to the Americas or Europe, will be granted citizenship status with greater rights than someone who can trace his/her ancestors in Jerusalem for multiple generations. Jewish have more rights in the Jewish state.)Israel treats Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem as immigrants, who live in their homes at the beneficence of the authorities and not by right. The authorities maintain this policy although these Palestinians were born in Jerusalem, lived in the city, and have no other home. Treating these Palestinians as foreigners who entered Israel is astonishing, since it was Israel that entered East Jerusalem in 1967.

Permanent residency differs substantially from citizenship. The primary right granted to permanent residents is to live and work in Israel without the necessity of special permits. Permanent residents are also entitled to social benefits provided by the National Insurance Institute and to health insurance. Permanent residents have the right to vote in local elections, but not in elections to Knesset . Unlike citizenship, permanent residency is only passed on to the holder's children where the holder meets certain conditions. A permanent resident with a non-resident spouse must submit, on behalf of the spouse, a request for family unification. Only citizens are granted the right to return to Israel at any time.

[JAbuchan08]

11. Thank you for backing me up. It's been a long time since I first heard of

the JNF and I was never aware that Palestinian-Israelis were given foreign-immigrant status.
I do recall quite vividly this issue being reported on NPR during Netenyahu's reign. Palestinian-Israelli homes were being demolished to make way for new Jewish-Israeli homes. It seems odd to me that so many on DU are willing to accept Israeli human rights abuses in the name of fighting terrorism - despite opposing the same in America.
I think it has something to do with America being further removed from its coloonial past. After all native americans responded to white encrochment with some pretty brutal tactics of their own, yet today we are generally sympathetic to their cause.

[Tom Joad]

15. Well, not all posters oppose such measures in the US, either.

Some, for example, are great fans of Alan Dershowitz, who supports the use of torture, secret trials, a militaristic policy abroad.
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz/

It does seem contrary to the understanding that DU people be of a "progressive persuasion" ... but that is the way it is.

Though "fighting terrorism" is endlessly given as the rationale for Israeli policies, it cannot be accepted as the actual reason. These things actually incite resistance, some nonviolent, some quite brutal. That is an accepted consequence for those who want to remake facts on the ground, to create a land for Jewish people, and not a land to be shared equally by all its inhabitants.

[JAbuchan08]

17. I've noticed this

"That is an accepted consequence for those who want to remake facts on the ground, to create a land for Jewish people, and not a land to be shared equally by all its inhabitants."
Notice what happens when you propose a one state solution.

[Coastie for Truth]

18. Single State Solution means

"Jim Crow"/"Apartheid"/""

Read all about "Dhimmi"

[JAbuchan08]

19. Let's just blow the whole place off the map

if the choice is between two theocratic and segragationist psuedo-democracies and one I frankly don't know which one to choose.

But maybe its not so simple as that.

[Coastie for Truth]

20. Thank you for your suggestion

I love your alias. Me, some folks call me man - not Gloucesterman, but man.

[JAbuchan08]

21. So you know, I wasn't being serious with my subject heading.

I see Israel as a colonial power, and I abhor colonialism - so it makes it difficult to accept that the "facts on the ground" preclude a peaceful single entity Israel/Palestine (at least as far as Jewish and Arab attitudes are concerned). I don't like the idea that land seizures and fence building are rewarded, but terrorism should not be rewarded. In the end I can't see any solution that is fair to both Jews and Arabs except to establish a single state, and if that is fuzzy headed idealism, well nobody said it had to happen tommorrow.

As to the nickname: I have yet to buy it. I believe in gun rights, but I also believe in balancing those rights with what is best for society. Unfortunately (and unlike virtually everyone else in the country) I don't know where that balance lies. Actually its kind of how I feel about this whole Palestine Israel thing.

[Coastie for Truth]

22. What about two economically viable, democratic states, side by side

Czech Republic and Slovakia, Irish Republic and the Counties of Northern Ireland, etc.

India and Pakistan - in the same colonial system under England, similar languages (Urdu), a massive population transfer, both nuclear armed to the teeth.

BTW - did you ever look back before 1948 - and visualize the UK as the Colonial Power the divided up the Ottoman Empire for its own short term colonialistic purposes ? Read .

[eyl]

25. But you neglect to mention

(same source)

Permanent residents were permitted, if they wished and met certain conditions, to receive Israeli citizenship....For political reasons, most of the residents did not request Israeli citizenship

That right to request citizenship is still extant.

[eyl]

24. In the Knesset

Israel's population (as per the end of 2004) can be (roughly) broken down as follows:

76% Jews
18% Arab (Christian & Muslim)
1.6% Druze
3.8% Other

There are, IIRC, either 11 or 13 Arab MKs (out of 120), 8 of which belong to the "Arab parties"*. This underrepresentation is caused by several factors:

1) While Arabs constitute about 18% of the total population, the proportion of Arabs in the population under 18 is larger, since they tend to have larger families. That means that the proportion of Arabs out of the total of voters is lower than that.

2) The turnout rates in the Arab sector are, on the whole, lower than in the Jewish population

3) There's an increasing trend (I posted an article about it somewhere around here) where non-Jews vote for "Jewish" parties, such as Meretz, Labor, Likud, and Shas (though I think Shas has lost most of its Arab support, and Likud will porbably lose most of what it had in the coming elections)


*These are the parties which are identified with Israel's Arab population; most of them are "explicitly" Arab, except for Hadash (the Israeli Communist party) which at least in theory is binational

[eyl]

23. True in theory

in practice, JNF land can (and has) be leased to Arabs, either directly or by the bueracratic subterfuge of "swapping" lands with the ILA.

See also AG Mazuz rules JNF land can now be sold to Arabs

[Tom Joad]

9. Don't say "you didn't know". See post 8 below.

The discrimination has been throughly documented by many human rights organizations... Israeli, Palestinian, international.

So don't say you did not know.

[barb162]

6. Like Coastie, I haven't done homework either

But I believe when structures are built without permits and/or violate zoning, the government tends to go after you. I know they do it where I live and everywhere I have lived. Now, if it is selectively enforced, it's not right. Same thing in this country if black people only get pulled over for speeding and not white people.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Amnesty International has talked about the discrimination...

But I doubt you'll like their facts, which show that it's Arabs who are being discriminated against, as opposed to the nonsense in the OP.


Discriminatory enforcement of planning and building regulations

Planning and building regulations, both in Israel and in the Occupied Territories, are enforced in a manner that, in the overwhelming majority of cases, discriminates against Israeli Arabs and Palestinians. Violations of these regulations also occur in the Jewish sector in Israel and in Jewish settlements in the Occupied Territories. However demolitions of homes of Israeli Jews are virtually unheard of. Information from official sources about demolitions is not disaggregated into separate statistics for the Jewish and Arab sectors.(52) However, according to available information only rarely are properties demolished in the Jewish sector and usually these are extensions to existing buildings, rather than entire homes. The practice in the Jewish sector has tended to be retroactive granting of permits and tolerance of unlicensed buildings, rather than demolition.

In the Occupied Territories the establishment by Israel of Israeli settlements is illegal under international law. In addition, the settlements established without government authorization have usually been granted authorization retroactively and have been provided with services such as water and electricity, even prior to being granted authorization. A widely publicized government decision to dismantle a few unauthorized settlement outposts (consisting of mostly uninhabited caravans) in 2003 was not eventually carried out. In some cases the outposts were not removed and in other cases they were removed but were promptly reestablished by the settlers and left in place by the authorities.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=124&topic_id=114223&mesg_id=114238

Other human rights groups have lots of factual information about home demolitions, and I don't know about you, but I'd be taking what human rights groups say more seriously than some idiot who can't even admit that Israel is occupying Palestinian territory and who seems to see the world in some weird upside-down way...

Violet...

[Wordie]

29. My understanding, barb, is that Palestinians are for the most part unable

to obtain building permits from the Israeli authorities.

[Andromeda]

26. Of course you don't...

[JAbuchan08]

28. What do you mean by that?

This has been a very informative discussion and I have learned some things. It's difficult to make sense of the reality of the situation when there are two sides to every claim. In addition I'm trying to understand the situation from thousands of miles away without the benefit of having lived through the 100 years of conflict that has brought us to the point. Whatever you think of my post responding with a derisive one-liner is counter-productive. I think you would find that I am quite capable of processing new information. In fact I've been known to modify my opinion when confronted with a well reasoned argument.

What I believe re: Israel/Palestine is this: Arabs should accept that they will have Jews for neighbors whether they like it or not. Jews should accept that zionism is a colonialist philosophy that Arabs have every right to resent. Also terrorism, segregation and descrimination are wrong no matter who does it. Do my beliefs constitute a solution to the problem? No, and I recognize that, but that does not mean I will discount facts that contradict more dated information. For example I had no idea that the JNF now allows sales to Arabs. That is duly noted, and I think its a fine step towards equality.

I hope you see I'm a reasonable person and that you don't need to resort to directing flippant remarks at me.

[barb162]

7. thanks for posting this, I want to check this issue

[Tom Joad]

8. Building Homes as an act of Resistance to legalized discrimination.

I can think of no better way to make crystal clear the racism, enforced by laws enacted without the input of the affected population, policy of the Israeli regime than by its building policy in Jerusalem. Racism in Israel is not simply by mere personal prejudice, but it is systematic in law and practice. It is a policy of apartheid, right in the heart of Jerusalem.

The Israeli military is destroying homes of Palestinians in Jerusalem. See the post "House demolitions in Jerusalem continue unabated" of Jan 25.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=113126&mesg_id=113126

On this day we mourn the loss of a brave Civil Rights leader in the US, I would hope we would not seek to justify such blatant discrimination and racism abroad, policies that are, tragically, subsidized by US tax money.

We should instead celebrate the resistance of Palestinians. The goal of the Israeli regime is to make Palestinian people disappear. Yet they remain. They will not go away. Therefore, building permits or not, they build for their future in their homeland.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Jerusalem/Discriminating_Policy.asp

Policy of discrimination in planning, building and land expropriation

Planning policy in East Jerusalem since its annexation in 1967 is affected by political considerations and infected by systematic discrimination against the Palestinians living there. While extensive building and enormous budget allocations have been the rule in Jewish neighborhoods, the Israeli government has choked development and building for the Palestinian population.

In June 1967, Israel annexed 70,500 dunams <4 dunams = 1 acre> of East Jerusalem and the West Bank and incorporated them within Jerusalem’s borders. From this annexed territory, Israel has expropriated about one-third of the annexed territory – 24,000 dunams – most of it privately-owned Arab property. Israel used this expropriated land for residential construction. By the end of 2001, 46,978 housing units had been built for Jews on this land, but not one unit for Palestinians, who constitute one-third of the city’s population.

At the same time, Israel choked construction in Palestinian neighborhoods, and restricted new construction. Immediately upon annexation of East Jerusalem, and contrary to its actions in the rest of the West Bank, the Jordanian outline plans were nullified, thus creating a planning void that took a long time to fill. In the first decade following annexation, construction was only allowed ad hoc in a few areas in East Jerusalem. Much land surrounding Palestinian villages and neighborhoods were expropriated to build Jewish neighborhoods, leaving no room for Palestinian construction.
<snip>
The consequences of this policy are evident in Palestinian neighborhoods. For example, at the end of 2002, housing density in Arab neighborhoods was almost twice that of Jewish neighborhoods, 11.9 square meters per person compared to 23.8 square meters per person. The existing situation has forced many Palestinians to build homes without first obtaining a building permit. The Jerusalem Municipality enforces the building laws on Palestinians much more stringently than on the Jewish population, even though the number of violations is much higher in the Jewish neighborhoods.
________________________________________________________________________
Above material from B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel.

http://www.btselem.org/English/

[Coastie for Truth]

12. I have been to Jerusalem - and seen the construction

in accordance with zoning, planning, and permitting done in East Jerusalem by Kingdom Holdings and its affiliates and Suleiman (sp?) - where Jews are not allowed to buy.

PS - what do you call it when a Jewish engineer can not go to a seminar at King Fahd Univ -- but his Indian/Pakistani Muslim colleague can go - and present the Jewish engineer's work (not move there, not buy real estate there - just go to a poster session where his research is being discussed).

Both sides are guilty.

[Coastie for Truth]

13. This is a positive act of resistance

, and see also and this means one heck of a lot more for a "win-win" solution for the Israelis and Palestinians together then all of the brickbats.