Gaza's spiral into anarchy

[barb162]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4581334.stm

Gaza's spiral into anarchy
By Alan Johnston
BBC correspondent, Gaza

snip

There is a disintegration in our situation here," says the independent election candidate, Dr Eyad El Surraj.

snip
International experts studying the security sector last year concluded: "Clan and family affiliations remain strong and challenge official loyalties. Affiliations with militia factions also obscure loyalties and give rise to divisions.

snip
Hafiz Barghouti, the editor of the newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadeed, has written: "It appears we are neither prepared to change, nor admit that we have failed in running our own affairs. Everyone is busy calculating how to make the biggest possible gains at the homeland's expense.

"While most Palestinians find it easy to blame the occupation for all our ills, it is a fact that the occupation was not as bad as the lawlessness and corruption that we are now facing."

[pelsar]

1. ooops.....

this sentence by a palestenain llving in Gaza:

"While most Palestinians find it easy to blame the occupation for all our ills, it is a fact that the occupation was not as bad as the lawlessness and corruption that we are now facing."

unlike many, we see here a palestenain who is now understanding that responsability is key element in a state.....and excuses dont solve anything.

[barb162]

4. Yeah I found this BBC article rather amazing for

actually reporting the depths and reasons of the deteriorating situation without trying to blame Israel. Maybe the BBC editorial board is really getting on the reporters' cases there. Also the fact that certain Palestinians actually are noting the obvious as you point out with the citation. WOW! I am taking that guy's name down who came straight out with this. There's a man who, as you write, isn't looking for excuses about the occupation.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. So should the Palestinians blame the occupation for anything?

Or is anything where they don't soundly blame themselves considered an excuse?

Violet...

[pelsar]

7. the excuses...

israel has had lots of influence for good and bad.....but that does not take away from the palestenians responsability toward their own.

just as israels reaction to the palestenain terror remains an israeli response, both wise and dumb decisions....it remains an israeli responsability.

the first part of 'growing up" is recognizing that no matter what, your reaction to the environment remains yours and only your responsability....that is what the palestenains have to learn, and their supporters. They have choices in their response to israel, and whatever they choose remains their choice and their responsabiiity....taking away that responsability and supporting that ideal, that they are not responsable for their society is irresponsable and very short sighted.

you can attempt to analysis the situation but you wont get very far, you've got arafats multiple security organizations with overlapping responsabilities, outside forces funding and training multiple groups, various subcultures fighting for piece of the corrupt pie....and on top of that is israel, which may be described as both the catalyst for the groups and the reason that kept the infighting to a minumum....

but in the end, its the palestenian resonsability to develop their own society no matter what the outside forces are. They are not the first to attempt to build a society out of the ruins of warfare...some have succeeded and some havent, i would venture forth that those that have succeeded understood that responsability is the first step....excuses just prolong the agony and lead to a failed state.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. I think we're agreeing on more than we're disagreeing on here...

I think we both agree that both the Palestinians and Israel has responsibilities. Where I suspect we differ on this (though I'm not entirely sure how far we differ on it) is that I think there's a problem with deciding that sole responsibility for anything in this conflict lies with one party, and not taking into account the internal and external factors that cause things not to happen quickly (in this case Palestinians developing a society free of chaos).

Where I disagree is that you said the Palestinians have failed to build a society. It's not the society that many people would like to see, but there was a society there during the occupation, and there's still one there now. What is new now is the internal strife and chaos. Gaza is not just dealing with the ruins of warfare, but with the end of a belligerant occupation. The only recent similar one I can think of is East Timor, where it's taken a few years and there's still some chaos despite the best intentions of the East Timorese and donor countries. It'll probably take a few more years for things to settle down even more. The recovery of a society after a belligerant occupation ends doesn't happen suddenly, and in the case of Palestinians, the West Bank is still occupied and it's not looking like it's going to come to an end any time soon unfortunately...

Violet...

[pelsar]

33. i have no problem waiting....

and in fact i agree that it will take time for them to develop...but heres the problem: (yes it is a society but one that is not substainable in its present form...)

what does israel do about the kassams and what about the west bank?

ideally, as far as i can see, gaza first works itself out, and only then does the westbank be turned over, the reason being that gaza is a continous land mass that has limited ability to attack israel. (they've tried sea and land-both so far unsuccessful)

The westbank is far more dangerous..kassam from the west bank can hit israels knesset, airports etc. the land topography is far more complex.

obviously in that scenario the palestenians have to wait...if they get the westbank while chaos still runs rampart, and kassams, mortors, infiltrators attack israel from the west bank, a likly scenario if the PA doesnt have control....what then?

one cant expect israel to let the kassams rain down and do nothing?..yet that response will further the chaos in the westbank.....

[barb162]

8. Don't you think there are many Palestinians that are totally

blameless for the situation? That just maybe long-time bad leadership, corruption, etc., might have just a bit to do with the problems showing up these days

[Violet_Crumble]

29. Huh?

What did that post have to do with the question I asked pelsar? Yr question didn't make any sense considering what I was discussing with pelsar...

Violet...

[barb162]

32. Huh?

What did your original post have to do with the article, which concentrates more on internal Palestinian affairs, infighting, etc., than it does on Israel

[Violet_Crumble]

34. I was asking pelsar a question...

That's why my post is a reply to his post, and why I asked him the question. What I don't understand is the question you asked me in reply to my question. If you want to join in the discussion at any time, feel free,but until you explain what yr question to me had to do with what I was asking pelsar, or why yr asking it, then this seems to be a bit of a dead end...

Violet...

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oversea Visitor]

3. Holy Shit

Where the history lesson,
What happen after World War 2.
When was Isreal formed?
Whose land was taken to form Isreal
Do the traditional people there has a say in wheather they want to give up their land
Where was the people whose land was taken was relocated to.

Holy Shit
Palestine was NEVER a country.

It is right if someone throw you out of you house and give it to others and tell you stay in the backyard and if you come back in or try to take back your house you be kill?

Sad that this happen, sad to heard them describe as people who cannot be left alone and cannot govern themselves.

Who are these people?
Where do they come from?
Where is they rigth?

[Violet_Crumble]

5. Keeping on saying it won't make it true...

The Palestinians definately have an identity as a people, just the same as Israelis do. To deny them their identity and to make sweeping negative statements against an entire people is very extreme, but not all that unusual in some circles...

Violet...

[rfkrfk]

9. the only identity the Pali's have is that of

collective loosers in the Middle Eastern
game of musical chairs

in 1900, the 'future Pali's' were 'just Arabs', of various
tribes, living in the Ottomann district of
southern Damascus,

and map lines were drawn in the 1930s or so, then

somebody in Britain clicks their heels together three times,

and somebody says, the people inside those lines have 'separate identity'.

yeah, whatever

[bemildred]

10. Ignorance can be cured.

Coins and Banknotes of the British Mandate of Palestine

http://www.drberlin.com/palestine/

A BRIEF HISTORY OF PALESTINE

http://www.drberlin.com/palestine/history.htm

But anyone with even a feeble knowledge of history would be aware that Palestine has been a distinct entity since ancient times, and home to a most diverse set of peoples, among whom were Jews, for many thousands of years. It sits at a crossroads of trade, culture and empire, and has done so since far antiquity.

[pelsar]

11. 1920 or perhaps the 1800's

when the palestenian identity emerged depending upon how one wants to define it:

http://www.jerusalemites.org/jerusalem/ottoman/8.htm



http://www.ciaonet.org/book/jankowski/jank09.html

[bemildred]

12. To be sure, history continues as we speak.

You could say that the modern form emerged after 1948. That does not mean that people have not lived there all along, and it is ridiculous to say they ever, at any time, did not have an identity of their own.

[rfkrfk]

13. people of Burbank,are not the same as the people of Hollywood

but to a normal person, the only difference of these places
is the name on the side of police cars

'Palestine', is a 20th C. political entity,
different from eastern Trans-Jordan sorta
like Manhatten is different from Brooklyn

believe whatever you want, about
their historic claim to
the name 'Palestine'

[bemildred]

15. Normal people who live in Burbank and Hollywood consider them

to be quite different, they think the difference is an
important one. The fact that you choose to denigrate them
says more about you than them.

[Wordie]

14. In many ways,

the question of "Palestinian identity" seems red-herringish. What is clear is that ancestors of the Palestinians (whatever one wishes to call them - Palestinians, arabs, Philistines, Caananites) existed, and that they had lived on the land in question for centuries. Many were forced to leave by the '67 war, many remained under Israeli control.

Those that left wish to return to their homes and property; those that remained wish to keep their homes and property. What better marker for identity can there be than a sense of "home"?

Why is it relevant when it was that the Palestinian identity developed, if their presence for centuries in the area in question (in significant numbers - roughly twice the population of the Zionists in 1948), is indisputable?

[bemildred]

16. Yes. nt

[pelsar]

17. you forgot jews....

whatever one wishes to call them - Palestinians, arabs, Philistines, Caananites) existed, and that they had lived on the land in question for centuries......and jews, the direct ancestors of those "zionists" and todays israelis (or dont they "count?")

[Wordie]

18. pelsar, the sub-thread was about palestinian identiy.

This sub-thread got started because of another post upthread (now deleted) questioning the existance of a Palestinian people.

And your asking, "Don't they count?" in reference to my not going into Israeli/Jewish issues is troubling. If you had read upthread enough you would have realized that this was a thread only about Palestinian identity. I don't think it should be expected that any of us give exactly equal time to both "sides" in every single post, or sub-thread or thread either, for that matter.

If you wish to change the subject to Jewish identity or population levels in Palestine/Israel, fine: ask a question, make a comment. But to come down on me because I did not mention Israelis/Jews in a subthread about Palestinian identity isn't reasonable.

[pelsar]

19. palestenain ancestory.....

was the subthread.....and i understand it....but any palestenain ancestory that describes their ancestory as:

".What is clear is that ancestors of the Palestinians (whatever one wishes to call them - Palestinians, arabs, Philistines, Caananites) existed, and that they had lived on the land in question for centuries. Many were forced to leave by the '67 war, many remained under Israeli control."

is implicitily saying that the jews (whom were absent from that description of those who had lived there) had no right to the land, kicking out the people who belonged when in fact that very same description applies equally to the jews who were kicked out by the romans and whos ancestors simply returned home
or.....

__________________________________
in significant numbers - roughly twice the population of the Zionists in 1948)...i

also a remark saying "the jews have less right to return home...and when they did the kicked out the majority.

________________________________________

had your thread been just about the identity of the palestenians, when it came about etc, i would have either participated in the same vein or not add, but when there are subtle remarks written that hint that the jews narrative/culture somehow doesnt count...i tend to speak up.

[Wordie]

20. pelsar

s implicitily saying that the jews (whom were absent from that description of those who had lived there) had no right to the land, kicking out the people who belonged when in fact that very same description applies equally to the jews who were kicked out by the romans and whos ancestors simply returned home
or.....

I didn't say that. I was focused entirely on the question of the Palestinians and speaking at that moment only of them. It is interesting that the comment that sparked the conversation really was trying to deny the Palestinian's rights to the land, by saying that they were not a distinct people. That's what I was focused on at that moment: the Palestinians. Are you saying I shouldn't ever think separately of Palestinian issues, without thinking exactly the same amount about the Israelis? (Although yes, I did make reference to the relative populations, if only to give perspective to how many Palestinians were there.) My concern, rather than to imply what you said, was to refute the inaccurate comments coming from the other direction.

(We have discussed some of this before, but I really wasn't getting into any of all that - and really don't want to in the context of this thread.)

also a remark saying "the jews have less right to return home...and when they did the kicked out the majority.
I've looked all through the thread and see no place where I said that. Where did you get it?

had your thread been just about the identity of the palestenians, when it came about etc, i would have either participated in the same vein or not add, but when there are subtle remarks written that hint that the jews narrative/culture somehow doesnt count...i tend to speak up.

pelsar, those just are not things that I said. Where in this thread did I say anything about jewish narrative/culture not counting? We talk here about many issues; you and I disagree quite vehemently on some, and are more in agreement on others. But that one's a basic issue of respect for your culture, so even though I'm somewhat annoyed that you would even think I was being dismissive of your culture, because the issue is so sensitive and important, I'd like to assure you that I am not. Not in any way. I think that the thing that might be confusing is that when I weigh the relative claims of the Israelis against the claims of the Palestinians, I see the Pals claims as having greater weight, and I've certainly mentioned that. I've also mentioned frequently, though, that I do value the claims of the Israelis as well; it's just the balance of claims for me comes out in a different place than it does for you. That doesn't mean I dismiss those claims of yours. For me to weigh it differently than you do by no means indicates I am dismissing your culture.

I suppose it's a good thing that you did speak up. I hope I've clarified it.

Shalom.

[bemildred]

21. I thought that Palestinians in the sense you used it included Palestinian

Jews. Prior to the formation of Israel, that would have been the meaning:
people of all sorts that live in the area and share the local culture, including
the native Jews, who have always been present from what I can tell.

[Wordie]

22. Jeez...does this stuff get complicated or what?

I agree with the facts you presented.

But in the particular case I really was focusing only on the Palestinian arabs, because the post that originally started this sub-thread discussion was referring only to Palestinian arabs, saying there was no such thing as a real Palestinian (arab) identity (or words to that effect). That I did so (focus only on Palestinian arabs and not Jews who lived there too) in no way was meant to dismiss (subtly or otherwise) the Jews in the area, or their culture; it was merely a case of responding to the previous comment. The discussion was not a wider one of the composition of the area in general, but was much more narrowly defined: it was about whether there was a separate Palestinian identity. Hence, my focus.

If people read upthread, it's clear that's what the first comment in this sub-thread was about, even though the post was deleted.

[bemildred]

23. I'm pretty sure Palestinians Jews were "Arabs".

"Arab" is a language designation, not an ethnicity. There were and are Palestinian Christians (several categories) and Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Muslims (several categories), and some less prominent religious & ethnic categories, and they are all more or less "Arabs" because they speak/spoke Arabic.

[Wordie]

24. Of course there are Palestinian Christians...etc.

And "Palestinian identity" would of course encompass them. That, however, wasn't what we were talking about. Read back there, bemildred. I think if you start with post #2 (whatever you can remember about it) and then proceed from there, you'll be able to understand my comments in the context in which they were intended.

Would it help if I said that it appeared to me that post #2, as well as at least one other upthread appeared to be an attempt to delegitimize Palestinian claims to the area? And it was with that in mind that my later comments were made?

[bemildred]

25. I'm afraid I missed post #2.

But since I don't believe we disagree, I don't see why we should argue. I'm just pointing out in my own way that the argument is ridiculous.

[Wordie]

26. Yeah...I kinda wondered why we were arguing, or at least seeming to. eom

[pelsar]

27. that clarifies....

I think that the thing that might be confusing is that when I weigh the relative claims of the Israelis against the claims of the Palestinians, I see the Pals claims as having greater weight, ,

actually you've never mentioned that clearly as in the above statement...which then makes your previous posts a bit clearer (in the past you werent so "blunt" about it)...

but i will say that placing a "value judgement" on different cultures history and rights is a very slippery slope. Personally I have no problem with that, as i believe western democacies with their civil rights etc are far superior to dictatorships and theorcracies...which is placing a value on cultures, but it places you in a position here of the "less than idealist"


dont worry about being "annoyed"..this communication style is slow and difficult

[Wordie]

28. Thanks. eom

[Violet_Crumble]

31. The same could be said about Israelis..

In 1900, the 'future Israelis' were 'just Jews' of various nationalities scattered all over the world...

and map lines* were drawn in the 1930s or so, then

somebody in Britain clicks their heels together three times,

and somebody says the people inside those lines have 'separate identity'

yeah, whatever

---------------------------

but I wouldn't say that about Israelis or Palestinians because it's an attempt to deny the history of one group or the other, is historically inaccurate, and comes across as just as extreme as the post I was originally replying to, and to which you seem to be in agreement with...

* It was the European countries that drew the map lines of Africa. Will you now be saying that the Nigerians, South Africans, etc don't have a separate identity either, or is it just that somehow the Palestinians are magically different than other people?

Violet...