Two dead, dozens injured in Hamas-PA clashes

[barb162]

Two dead, dozens injured in Hamas-PA clashes

By Arnon Regular, Haaretz Correspondent and the wires

Two Palestinian Authority police officers were killed in a series of gunbattles raging between PA police and Hamas across Gaza City on Sunday night.

Some 30 Palestinians, 20 Hamas militants and 10 PA police officers, were wounded in the heavy gunfire exchange.

The violence is the worst outbreak of factional fighting since the Gaza withdrawal last month.


The fighting erupted when PA police officers in Gaza City's Sheikh Ruwan neighborhood tried to disarm Hamas members parading their weapons in public in direct contradiction to a Palestinian Authority law announced last week forbidding such displays.

snip

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/631746.html

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

4. ?????

[Colorado Blue]

6. ?????????????????

Those are some pretty incredible allegations. Arafat was nearly 80 years old and Abbas has the full support of the US and the Israeli governments.

[Colorado Blue]

7. self delete posted wrong place

[Colorado Blue]

9. Please see my post #6. I responded to the wrong poster.

[barb162]

3. I posted this story to show the incredible difficulty, danger, etc .,

involved with disarming certain militants who are defying both Hamas leaders and the PA police

[leveymg]

5. Each time a Palestinian group moves into the mainstream, a more

radical one gets created. Happened with Fatah, now with Hamas, and next whatever militant group just splintered.

I'm just observing history about this. :shrug:

[barb162]

8. I guess I am perplexed by what you wrote about Arafat's death.

I have read many stories of the secrecy surrounding the cause(s) of his death, the symptoms, etc., but I wouldn't say the Israelis caused it especially when I have no proof. I haven't seen his death cert., not that that makes any diff. I am simply not sure of the cause of death.

[Colorado Blue]

10. Last I read there was an inflammatory headline about

POISONING but it turned out they were investigating ordinary food poisoning. AIDS has also been mentioned, among other possible causes.

And he was OLD.

[leveymg]

11. Has his actual cause of death been determined?

Here's what the BBC says:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4225332.stm

Cause of Arafat death 'unknown'

Many Palestinians believe Arafat was poisoned
Medical records of former Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat appear to show that doctors could not determine the underlying cause of his death.
The records, obtained by the New York Times newspaper, say that Arafat died from a stroke that stemmed from an unknown condition.

But Israeli newspaper Haaretz says the records point to him dying from poisoning, Aids or an infection.

You don't think that's rather strange? If you don't also think that's a bit suspicious, you must willfully lack imagination.

[Colorado Blue]

12. Excuse me, but I read the Ha'aretz article and it specifically

was talking about FOOD POISONING, along with AIDS or an infection. AIDS in particular would be an extremely embarrassing diagnosis to many of Arafat's supporters. If in fact that is what caused Arafat's demise don't you think an effort would be made not to publicize it? Also it should be mentioned that Arafat had plenty of enemies within his own community. It therefore requires quite a leap to assume some Jew did it, if in fact he died of foul play - he was, after all, encamped in Ramallah - not in downtown Tel Aviv.

I am extremely tired of these damned conspiracy theories. Fie upon them. In the case of conspiracy theories I am glad I lack an imagination because they almost always demonize Jews. And that's BIGOTRY, pure and simple. This kind of imagination we don't need.

In any case I fail to see what Arafat's death certificate has to do with the present situation between Hamas and Fatah. This is a straight-up power struggle, not unexpected - although regrettable.

Nor does Arafat's cause of death have a darned thing to do with the corruption people have attributed to Fatah, which has caused Hamas to gain some votes in Palestinian elections, and which has contributed to the afore-mentioned power struggle, along with Hamas' refusal to disarm. Where's the money? Billions have been given to the Palestinian people, which is sort of MIA.

Is the missing money Wolfie's fault also?

[leveymg]

13. Here's another problem w/your argument - French doctors did autopsy

the results of which were reviewed by the NYT, the Israelis, and other sources who, emphatically, would have liked to conclude he died of natural causes, but couldn't reach that conclusion.

As for Arafat's undue personal enrichment, I'm shocked . . . shocked, I say.

Israel denies poisoning Arafat as reports deepen death mystery
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=2&article_id=18350

Compiled by Daily Star staff
Friday, September 09, 2005


Israel reiterated it had not poisoned former Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, following media reports on Wednesday on the content of his medical records. "Israel was not in any way involved in what happened with Arafat. The Palestinians know this, the Arabs know this, Arafat's family knows this. But it's always convenient for certain people to heap accusations on Israel," said Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom. He urged the French doctors and Mrs. Arafat to make the records public.

Many senior Palestinian officials have accused Israel of poisoning their leader - an allegation Israeli officials have repeatedly rejected.

Wednesday's disclosure of Arafat's hitherto secret medical records from the French military hospital of Percy revealed that a "massive brain hemorrhage" had killed the Palestinian leader last November, although it remains unclear what led to the rapid deterioration in his health.

Arafat's wife, Suha, and Palestinian officials have never given a definitive cause of death and kept Arafat's medical records a closely guarded secret. Mrs. Arafat also rejected calls for an autopsy.

The medical dossier was initially obtained by the New York Times and two Israeli media outlets, which conducted separate reviews of the information. Their investigations gave different explanations for the cause of the stroke, deepening the puzzle over his death.

The Times review said poisoning was highly unlikely. It noted that French doctors conducted a battery of toxicology tests that came up negative.

[Coastie for Truth]

14. Psychological theory about conspiracy theorist

be they

* Bush and the NeoCons caused the 9/11 attacks
* The Israeli movers caused 9/11
* White casino owners cause Katrina or held back the response
* The Taiwanese movers were behind the theft of computer disks from Livermore (hence: Wen Ho Lee)
* The Israelis poisoned Arafat

Similar to the motivation to have a Hummer,and a Pit Bull Terrier, and and 5000 rounds of ammo as discussed by Randi Rhodes and at citing

One Thing That Makes Men Insecure

When a man's masculinity is threatened, watch him turn into Macho Man. In a Cornell University study, men who perceived their masculinity to be maligned displayed more homophobic attitudes, tended to support the Iraq war more and would be more willing to purchase an SUV over another type of vehicle. In other words, men overcompensate when they feel their masculinity is threatened.

I am 64 - grew up in a rough blue collar factory town, been in the service, worked in chemical plants and steel mills, pumped Iron at "after House Clubs" like the Renzie Park Legion Hall -- that observation about conspiracy theorists conforms to my observations.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

16. why poisen arafat?

we could have shot him a dozen times...microwaved him to death...blew up his room, with a missle, mysterious explosive etc

but nnooooo we put some mysterious poisen that no french doctor could discover...in fact we've now got this super secret formula that can be sent by invisiable dart to anybody we like....yes its true!...thats how we got the poisen in arafat..are we good!

and we're behind hamas and the PA shooting at each other....NEWS FLASH; WERE NOT IN GAZA ANYMORE!

whatever they're doing to each other, they doing it on their own....leave us out of it...or do we have an invisable hand as well?

anybody who knows anything about gaza, hamas and the PA knew that this was inevitable....but then if it we cant blame israel then it doesnt count

[leveymg]

17. The whole cornered rat thing was going on a bit long, wouldn't you

agree? Poisoning might have been the easiest way to cut it short. Microwaves - hmmm, a cooked liver might show up in an autoposy. I'll think about that, though.

[bemildred]

18. Well, it is interesting to speculate on what the current situation would

be, had Arafat not conveniently died beforehand. I'm not
sure if Jabba could have brought himself to do the pullout,
for instance, if Arafat was there to watch and kibbitz on
the whole thing. Might have had a stroke or something.

I would think his presence would have been stabilizing in
the current situation. (God I hate saying that.) He was
the one central figure with wide enough loyalty that he
might have been able to keep some sort of order. It doesn't
appear that Abbas is anywhere near up to the job.

But there are a lot of things, once you start thinking about
it.

EDIT: FWIW, it don't think it's at all unlikely he just keeled
over and died. He wasn't enjoying a healthy lifestyle at the
time. But you never know for sure out here in TV land.

[Colorado Blue]

19. I would like to add a comment, expressing my extreme

discomfort at this line of "discussion".

Jewish people and/or Israel are being openly accused of murder and conspiracy, of causing the stress between Hamas and Fatah, which stems IN FACT from deep differences in political and religious philosophy, not to mention long-range goals - one wants a state, with the burdens and responsibilities attendent thereon - yet has been accused of systemic corruption. The other has vowed to destroy Israel and is Islamist in character, and is well known as a terrorist organization which refuses to disarm, and just recently blew up its own weapons at a parade and killed and grievously injured dozens of innocent people, which it then "retaliated" for by launching dozens of rockets at a defenseless Israeli town.

Yet instead of looking at the situation objectively, and recognizing the fact that conflict between the two groups was inevitable, the Israelis and certain American Jews are now guilty of manipulating the situation? And murdered Arafat in the bargain, when he was a very old man, who had received the Nobel Peace Prize, decades after outrages like Black September in Jordan?

I'm appalled. I'd like to to know what is different between this kind of thinking and that of Czarist Russia, or 1930's Germany?

[leveymg]

20. On one hand you say you're uncomfortable discussing this, on the

other, you invite a long speculative response to historical, political, and psychological issues.

I will attempt to be objective. I personally do not believe that any armed conflict between or within groups is inevitable. One should be willing to confront the fact, however, that often conflicts are provoked or maintained from without as a means to division-and-conquest. That is a phenomenon that is as old as human tribes have interacted and exploited each other, I'm afraid.

I don't think there's much to point to that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that the nations and peoples of the Middle East present any exception to the above.

I regret that this may make you uncomfortable.

[pelsar]

21. do you know anything?

about hamas, islamic jihad, PA, Fatah, tanzim, ....do you know anything about the internal politics, history of above listed groups and their relationships to one another?

do you know anything about the 17 security organizations that arafat designed?....i think not because if you did you would know that they have been at each others throats since arafat returned..they just had a common enemy called israel to keep it limited...now that were gone, its quite obvious what is happening...its just hard for some to let go of the knee jerk reaction of the "all powerful israel" being responsable for every act of violence in the area...

perhaps you should learn to read arabic...and read the palestenain press..unless of course israel is also writing the articles there as "ghost writers" (you probably considering that now)

[Colorado Blue]

22. I am not inviting a speculative response. I am making a

direct, clear statement of historical fact, and wondering why the hell this sort of nasty demonization and innuendo is going on in the year 2005, ON A PROGRESSIVE WEBSITE - especially in view of the obvious - as Pelsar describes.

I am UNCOMFORTABLE because REAL progressives don't deal in bigotry, especially the particularly slimy kind that has marred our civilization for 2,000 years. Clear enough?

Please see the other articles which have been appended today to this forum, including the one in which the P.A. police stormed Palestinian parliament to complain about Hamas. It is unfortunate that armed confrontations occur, I agree they need not be inevitable - but they are in fact very common in the Middle East and have been for centuries.

I suppose the Israelis are behind this scene in Parliament too? Or could it be - the cigar is just a cigar?

[barb162]

23. Conflicts can indeed be provoked by outsiders, but not here

It is simply not the case in the current strife as described in the story. This is Palestinian brother against Palestinian brother. If a police officer tells you to put down a weapon, you don't blame an outsider, your mother, or what you had for breakfast. That doesn't work here, any other society and it shouldn't work that way with the Palestinians. Abbas is basically saying open lawlessness is not really an option anymore and apparently some Palestinians don't like the message.


Palestinian leaders are using the word "chaos" and "civil war" rather openly the last few days. Gunfights in the streets, gunmen shooting at police stations, people getting killed and injured, etc. There were some here who were trying to portray open violence as long-denied celebration over entering Gaza, as in: just let them have their fun; things will calm down. Well things haven't calmed down at all. If anything, the situation seems to be steadily deteriorating. The PA now seems to understand they have to get some militants under control one way or another before things really start spinning out of control and even more die. I think they realize quite correctly this is an internal situation and that they need a new security chief and perhaps several other changes in their government. The longer they allowed the militants to openly brandish weapons, the worse it was going to be when it was time to stop that particular action. I think they let it go on way too long and now they are paying the price with cops getting killed, people getting injured, etc. This is about one thing and one thing only: the Palestinians and how they choose to manage their own society, their own government, their own law enforcement, etc., and not about some sinister or otherwise outside force.