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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 09:54 AM
Original message
Someone kindly remind me what country I'm living in?
Edited on Fri Feb-04-05 09:56 AM by D__S
That this sort of thing is even allowed to take place... and in such an "enlightened" state like Massachusetts?

Some posters here keep telling us that the Dems aren't interested in "confiscating" our firearms or that registration doesn't lead to "confiscation". Just keep on parroting that line of thought.

(for those unaware; Brookline is easily one of the most Liberal communities in MA, and all firearms must be registered... even gun show loophole private sales).

"Soldier takes shot at gun rules

"It was the faces of three disillusioned and angry residents that told a story in the lobby of Brookline District Court earlier this week.
There was Kang Lu, a Chinese-born U.S. Army second lieutenant and future military doctor, dressed in uniform, hoping, finally, for redemption in the form of a restored license to carry firearms. Next to him was longtime resident Yat Lau, also Chinese-born, who was similarly rejected in his bid to renew a license to carry a permit that was first issued to him four years ago in Newton.
And finally, sitting quietly on a bench outside the courtroom, was diminutive law paralegal and gospel choir singer Jacqueline Scott, a 53-year-old African-American woman and former domestic abuse victim, who said she has heard "nothing, nothing, nothing,nothing " from the Brookline Police on her first-time application to carry a gun which she completed in October 2003."

Snip...

"But Lau (whose case was settled in 2004) believes he and others had been victimized by police.

"I feel like I've been targeted," said Lau, whose gun license was unceremoniously stripped in a visit Brookline Police Sgt. Michael Raskin made to Lau's workplace to confiscate a firearm kept at work in a safe. "I felt treated me like a criminal," Lau said.
Lau acknowledged that a teenage son living in his home had had some scrapes with the law, and recalled being told by Raskin, "In my opinion, your home is not safe for firearms."

Snip...

<sarcasm>I applaud the Police Chiefs decision on this one. After all, he's only doing his job and protecting the community and children from dangerous felons like Mr.Lu </sarcasm>.


"Broke library "rule"
According a June 2003 letter from the police department, the decision to revoke Kang Lu's gun license was based on a series of four unrelated reasons.

The first was a bizarre incident at the Coolidge Corner Library during which Lu, a regular visitor to the library, said he preferred to study there in the brightest part of the building. "I like it well lit," he said.

But on a weekday afternoon in June 2002, Lu said a library staff member approached him and said he had to leave his study table because he was told it was in the "children's section." He noted that no children were in that section of the library, but was told to leave the area anyway.

"I told the librarian 'If you believe I'm violating a law, call the police and see what they say.'"

A short time later, police arrived at the library, and Lu said officers told him that he was violating library policy and could be cited for trespassing if he did not clear the area. Lu then agreed to leave the children's section and the matter ended with no arrests and no other consequences, or so Lu thought.

In a June 24, 2003, letter to Lu from O'Leary, however, "the facts surrounding the incident you were involved in at the Coolidge Corner Library" was listed as the first among the reasons why Lu's license to carry was pulled."

Complete story...




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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
1. Post-War Argentina.
Mid 50s.

Get ready for the other boot to drop.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. I do not live there, but...
I thought that in MA, a LTC is required to own a hangun. Some are ALP, while others are target and recreation.

Please tell me if this is is true, and if the Chief is revoking Lu's firearm ownership entirely.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. The license designations can be misleading.
Edited on Fri Feb-04-05 10:38 AM by D__S
As I mentioned in a previous post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x98607#98659

Also note, this story is being reported by the same "Town on Line" news community that carried the earlier news story regarding the home invasion thing.

Again, details regarding the scope of the Lu's licenses are sketchy.

However, the article states; "overturn a police department decision to revoke a firearms license sounds like his permit to own and posses handguns and "high capacity rifles" was revoked... there's no mention of the license being downgraded from ALP (all lawful purposes), to sporting purposes only.

Just from reading Mr. Lu's <sarcasm> long criminal history </sarcasm>, it's obvious that the police were fishing for any possible reason to deny the permit.

In any regards, it shouldn't matter if the permit was for recreational use or concealed carry. The Chief and his bootlickers are way out of line.


"I do not live there, but..."

Consider yourself fortunate.
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soupkitchen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. Shamerica
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Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. Maybe those 3 are not white enough to be able to carry firearms...
sounds like more racism riding with gun control.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Anythings posssible...
but in this case unlikely.

Brookline is very sensitive to race related issues and anything that's even hints at "profiling" is addressed pretty quickly.

They have a moderately sized Asian community. Mostly Chinese and Japanese medical and engineering students and young professional types (Brookline is one of the wealthiest communities in MA).

When incidents of profiling do happen, it mostly involves Blacks and Hispanics that live in neighboring Boston whom are passing through Brookline.

Being all too familiar with LEOs attitude towards private ownership of firearms, and the racial make-up of the town, it's probably just a coincidence that the 3 individuals involved happen to be minorities.

About the only way to prove it would be by checking the ethnicity of those approved and denied for those rare 32 and 72 licenses (in a town of about 60,000).

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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. (re-post from the other thread)
Edited on Fri Feb-04-05 11:07 AM by Romulus
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3055557

Three minorities, all stripped of their permits to own firearms because of frivolous reasons:

1) the guy with the son who has been roughed up by police- what minority male teenager in a majority-white community isn't ever in contact with the local law enforcement? How many white parents of teenagers who have had contact with law enforcement have had their permits to own firearms revoked and their firearms confiscated? I'll hold my breath in wait for the answer (not).

And the same guy volunteered for UK/AUS/CAN style handgun control (leave the firearm at the police station and only check it out at certain times) and was turned down.

2) the guy who was asked to leave the so-called "kids" area of the library - what was that about? No kids were there, so who cares if he was reading med school textbooks? And he left the area when asked. Should protesters against Bush simply "leave the area" when asked? Then have their info kept in some law enforcement database after they comply with the request?

3) The single therapy session for help coping with med school stress. Is this really a "good reason" for revoking a firearms permit? How many police officers have had their firearms confiscated by their department for seeking assistance with job stress? I'll be waiting for that answer (not).


What's sad is that people are actually supporting the police here.
(edite to add: the last line is in reference to the other thread)
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I agree that this is way over-reaction from the facts presented
in the article. However, to be fair, in regards to point 2 - the guy did NOT leave the children's section of the library when asked. He left after library staff asked him to leave, he refused and asked them to call the police if it were a problem. He then left when the police were brought in and asked him to leave.

Something tells me this guy is on the radar screen of the police. It could easily be some sort of racial discrimination. It is also quite possible that this guy is well-known by local law-enforcement types for less than flattering reasons that they do not release to the press. Every town has them - the kind that never get arrested, but are consistent PITAs that are known powder kegs.

I say this for the sake of discussion, not to defend the local chief.
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. my version is more typical of the Dungeon
and more entertaining . . .
:evilgrin:
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I always fall afoul of the more entertaining part
:argh:

:hi:
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-05-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. It isn't about over reaction.
Edited on Sat Feb-05-05 11:22 PM by D__S
Well... it is, but it really isn't. It's more about one persons authority.

I have a close personal friend; very Liberal and anti-gun (I'm still trying to educate her and draw her into the darkside of "spray firing from the hip :evilgrin:), and even she thinks that this a wrongful practice.

Yeah, for me this is most definitely an RKBA thing, but what if it was applicable to something else? Marriage license for a gay couple? Permit to stage an anti-war protest? Counter protest against a "right to life" rally?

What if it were you, me or anyone else was placed in this sort of situation?

How would you feel if you were denied a right (or "privilege"), based on trivial matters or excuses?

Would you trust, understand, accept or abide by that persons determination for denial?

I know I have a less than spotless record (well... I did sit in the childrens section of the library a few times), I trust you and most other DU'ers here do too (got busted for a little weed, locked up for blocking an intersection during a protest, busted a neighbors window, etc).

So what if the "guy is on the radar screen of the police"?. So what if "this guy is well-known by local law-enforcement types for less than flattering reasons"?. So what if the people are "PITAs that are known powder kegs".

Have they broken any laws? Are they a danger to society? Who makes that determination and what makes a Police Chief qualified to make that determination?

I/you/we, post on DU; to some that's a threat simply by being here.

Yeah, I'm %100 RKBA all the way, but regardless of that, this sort of policy making just isn't right under any circumstance.






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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
8. And people wonder why we gun owners...
are wary of requiring a license to possess a firearm at home, and why we favor objective criteria for issuing carry licenses rather than some administrator's personal discretion (i.e., whim).
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. whatever became of
... mandamus, certiorari, and all the lovely prerogative writs of the common law?

Public officials are very seldom permitted to make decisions at their "personal discretion (i.e. whim)". The exercise of administrative discretion is in fact subject to rather stringent requirements ... at least where I come from. And I'd hate to think that anybody in the land of the free etc. was ever subject to the "personal discretion (i.e. whim)" of any official delegated to perform any function of those governments whose acts I'd thought were so circumscribed down there.

Here, firearms officers have discretion as to the issuance of firearms permits. And judges have the authority to review the decisions made in the exercise of that discretion, and quash the decisions if they find that they were made improperly, e.g. if the decision maker:

(a) acted without jurisdiction, acted beyond its jurisdiction or refused to exercise its jurisdiction;

(b) failed to observe a principle of natural justice, procedural fairness or other procedure that it was required by law to observe;

(c) erred in law in making a decision or an order, whether or not the error appears on the face of the record;

(d) based its decision or order on an erroneous finding of fact that it made in a perverse or capricious manner or without regard for the material before it;

(e) acted, or failed to act, by reason of fraud or perjured evidence; or

(f) acted in any other way that was contrary to law.
(That's the codification of the provisions that replace the old prerogative writs for federal decision makers here, whose decisions may be reviewed by the Federal Court, which I cite for convenience because it's handy; the decisions of firearms officers are reviewed by the provincial superior courts.)

The fact that a decision is "discretionary" does *not* mean that it is subjective, let alone that it may be made on a whim.

So I guess I'm just seeing another of those false dilemma thingies.

Which would you rather have:

(a) a list of criteria which, if met, require that a firearms licence be issued without regard to any other factors that may be known, or

(b) a vindictive, power-mad petty functionary able to make decisions that affect your fundamental rights without having to justify them to anybody?

Hmm. Which would you rather do (with, once again, a tip of the hat to Firesign Theatre and gratitude for the memories of my misspent youth):

(a) hit that little old Jew over the head with this bag of shit, or

(b) beat out that rhythm on a drum?

I'll take (c), thank you: the reasonable and real option.

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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I'll take...
Edited on Fri Feb-04-05 03:18 PM by benEzra
Which would you rather have:

(a) a list of criteria which, if met, require that a firearms licence be issued without regard to any other factors that may be known, or

(b) a vindictive, power-mad petty functionary able to make decisions that affect your fundamental rights without having to justify them to anybody?

Hmm. Which would you rather do (with, once again, a tip of the hat to Firesign Theatre and gratitude for the memories of my misspent youth):

(a) hit that little old Jew over the head with this bag of shit, or

(b) beat out that rhythm on a drum?

I'll take (c), thank you: the reasonable and real option.


Given the rather arbitrary way in which permits are issued in states with "discretionary" issue (most egregiously California, where in some jurisdictions one of those "other factors" to be considered seems to be whether or not you contributed to the Sheriff's political campaign), I'll take choice (a), and let the factors that may be considered be fixed by statute. Choice (c) seems to slide too readily into choice (b) unless there are some statuatory brakes applied. And if I'm denied based on some administrator's personal beliefs about me based on his own judgements and prejudices, I can't well afford to pay a lawyer to remedy the situation...

Choice (a) has become the norm here in most states the U.S. and has worked rather well, I think. (And yes, I am licensed to carry by the state of NC, having satisfied the relevant criteria and jumped through the relevant hoops.)
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davepc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. e) Vermont and Alaska
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-04-05 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. And possibly Wyoming, soon...
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