Town Raffles Rifles to Raise Money for School

[alwynsw]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=583&ncid=583&e=1&u=/nm/20041124/od_nm/odd_raffle_dc

<snip> "In this part of the state, it is difficult to raise money, and a bake sale just doesn't do the trick," said Katherine Yoder, chief of staff for Republican state Rep. Suzanna Hupp, who donated a high-end rifle from firearms maker Kimber.

The winner of the raffle will also receive a .22 caliber rifle donated by a parent and hunting t-shirts. The drawing will be held Dec. 8.

"This rifle will go toward protecting our children," Hupp said in statement explaining why she donated the firearm.

Wish I lived in Lampasas. The Kimber would be sweet.

[iverglas]

1. are all Republicans this stupid?

I mean, I have USAmerican first cousins once removed and all that, and yes, they're Republicans and not too bright. But really:

"This rifle will go toward protecting our children," Hupp said in statement explaining why she donated the firearm.

... do they figure that stepping on the crack will break their mother's back, too? Magical thinking, it's always a good choice. Not that I think her statement even qualifies as that. It's pretty obviously just stupid. Well, not *just* stupid. Propaganda can be effective even if it doesn't make a stitch of sense ... which I suppose makes it smart.

My mother met a couple of USAmericans wearing NRA ballcaps in Montreal last summer. She was pleasantly surprised to find that they were less stupid and obnoxious than her USAmerican cousins, Republicans though they were - in fact, they were quite polite and pleasant, except about Bill Clinton, and even there they stifled themselves so as not to offend my brother who had politely remarked on how well their former President was looking on tour and how well his book was doing. So I guess I won't judge any group that this particular moron belongs to based on her moronic utterances.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoka Ke]

3. I think you missed the connection...

By using the rifle to raise money in their raffle, they'll be able to purchase a fence around the school. So she was correct in saying that the rifle will help protect their children, albeit in a roundabout way. I'm sure you must have missed that part.

Just another example of a positve use of firearms in America!

Scott

BTW...what kind of Kimber is it.... anyone know?

[iverglas]

4. fascinating explanations, I'm sure

Lampasas, located in central Texas Hill Country, wants to raise about $15,000 to build a fence around parts of Hanna Springs Intermediate School, where a known sexual predator has been seen near campus.

I'm sure that the idea of using TAXES to build fences around schools never occurred to a STATE REPRESENTATIVE. (Of course, the idea that a fence is going to keep children safe from sexual predators is just moronic to start with.)

I suppose one just has to hope that the idea of acquiring firearms through school raffles doesn't occur to too many disqualified owners, or their straw ticket-purchasers. A few dozen raffle tickets might seem like a good investment to some.

Does this mean that the school must acquire some sort of firearms dealer licence in order to transfer the firearm to its winner?

There may well be no vegetarian parents or children at that school. If there are, I'd regard the raffle as entirely inappropriate. My neighbourhood school, for example, has a substantial Hindu enrolment, and the cultural insensitivity and exclusion that such an event would constitute would be intolerable. The fact that an activity is legal and practised by a majority doesn't mean that it is appropriate to give it official sanction and elevate it over the principles and feelings of a minority. (Playboy Magazine is legal and consumption of it widespread, but that wouldn't make it an appropriate raffle prize at a school.) But I'll bet that the majority at the school in question in this instance wouldn't have too many qualms about all that anyhow.

I'm not disturbed by hunting rifles, and I'm not disturbed by school raffles. Provided that there was compliance with the precautions that do exist where I'm at, to ensure that the person who wins it is qualified to possess it, and that the transfer is properly recorded, I can imagine such a raffle being held in an area of where I'm at where hunting is a way of life, such as an Aboriginal community, and no objection being reasonable. In my particular part of the world, a low-income multicultural urban core neighbourhood, it would of course be idiotic and unacceptable.

But anybody who doesn't think there's an agenda behind this particular rifle and this particular raffle -- and behind the statement by the Republican politician which I was addressing -- isn't wearing his/her honest/critical thinking cap.

[Wickerman]

5. You got a problem with a little Constantina wire around

a school? It makes kids feel secure. They'd feel even more secure with a few machine gun nests (yes, I mean full-auto and yes, I know the difference) around the perimieter. Might makes right, ya know?

[iverglas]

6. They're a ... patriotic bunch down there

http://www.thedreyerfamily.com/photoalbum/ellisons/Lampasas%20Fourth/fourth.htm

And they sure got a purdy school:



Quite a school, for grades 3 to 6. No indication of any shortage of money in Lampasas that I can see:

http://www.lampasas.k12.tx.us/geninfo/lisdhist.htm

In 1997, Lampasas opened its newest campus - Hanna Springs. The campus is located just north of Sulphur Springs, now called Hanna Springs. It houses third through sixth grades. Hanna Springs' campus, the largest building in Lampasas and the newest building in the district, allowed for conveniences not seen by any other campus, such as phones in every room.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2916433

"We're moms using guns as tools to protect our kids," said Marta Ellison, a member of the Hanna Springs Intermediate School parent-teacher-student organization and part of the trio that put the raffle together.

But ... oh look:

http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/112304dnmetfence.9ce7d.html

Raffle organizers (from left) Sharon Fehmel, state Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp and Marta Ellison thought up the idea over breakfast at the Country Kitchen.

Goodness! A couple of simple Texas Hill Country mawms ... having breakfast with their local Republican state representative. And posing for a big publicity photo with her.

And oh look ... it wasn't actually their idea anyhow:

"There was a school somewhere that raffled off two handguns to build some outbuildings, and they raised a ton of money, and raised some eyebrows, too," Ms. Hupp said. "So I mentioned that to Marta.

... The fact that the prize list might send a subliminal message to anyone intent on preying on kids isn't lost on the women, either.

"I think it's completely appropriate," said Ms. Hupp, one of the state's foremost advocates for gun rights. "After all, we are talking about our children's safety."

And it looked like such a nice, motherly thing for them to be doing, didn't it? Who would ever have suspected a political agenda behind it ...

Sometimes, it's just toooo easy.

[Hoka Ke]

7. Too too funny...

That I saw more concertina wire around the schools in D.C. and West Baltimore, (the Wild, Wild West), than in all my time in the Corps.


"The idea of targeting visiting hunters, who increase Lampasas County's population by several thousand during deer season, for the Dec. 8 raffle came during a meeting of "the breakfast club" — Ellison, state Rep. Suzanna Gratia Hupp and Sharon Fehmel."



Heck... it just sounds like pretty good marketing to me.

Hoka"justcallmearedneck"Ke


-and if those are the rifles, then nevermind. I already have too many hunters with Monte Carlo stocks.

[aikoaiko]

36. Whats wrong with a fence around a school?

A fence around a school seems prudent to me.

[LinuxUser]

8. Some answers for you, Madame Iverglas

It's inconceivable that a government school in the US (or any school in the US really) could have an FFL and do firearms transfers. This firearm is almost certainly going to be transfered through a local FFL. If you really wanted to confirm this you would have to call the people organizing the raffle but that's really the only way it could be.

Hindus and hunting: Hindus hunt. Hindus eat meat. Read "A Princess Remembers" by Gyautri (sp?) Devi. She talks about hunting in every third paragraph it seems (ok, I'm exagerating a little, but they did a lot of hunting). When I was in Rajastan visiting some of the palaces, it was obvious that they did a lot of hunting, and I did see some Indians out with a bolt-action who appeared to be on their way to or from a hunting trip. In days gone by, the London gunsmiths Holland & Holland sold many rifles to Hindu kings for their hunting trips. This modest Kimber is certainly not a rifle fit for a Rajput king, but I'm sure many Hindus, both in the US and India, would be happy to have such a rifle for plinking and hunting very small animals. So, Hindus have a long tradition of hunting. They just don't hunt cows, I assume. One other religion in India is Jainism, and Jains don't hunt. Jains aren't even supposed to swat a mosquito. Also, I assume that meat killed by hunting wouldn't be hallal, so I'm not sure what the Moslem stance on hunting would be. Jews also don't hunt because hunted meat isn't kosher.

Oh and by the way, I'm a vegetarian, and I don't hunt, but if my school were having a rafle like that I would buy a ticket. I would think of it as supporting the school, and if I won I would have a great rifle to teach new shooters on.

You also refer to "this particular rifle". It's a Kimber 22. It's just a plain old inexpensive rifle, which could be used for hunting very small animals like rabbits or squirels, or it would make a good starter rifle for a child. See: http://www.kimberamerica.com/kimber22.php

Children can't start out with full-power hunting rifles; the recoil is just too much. A 22 like the Kimber is the traditional place to start. I'm guessing that in Central Texas, a very large percentage of children learn how to use guns and then go hunting later, and most of them start with rifles like this one.

Oh, and obviously they have an agenda. They could have rafled a new Sony Playstation or a subscription to Vegetarian Weekly but they chose a gun, and as another poster points out, it was organized by the local politician.

Here's a site with another perspective about guns and protecting children:

http://www.a-human-right.com

[iverglas]

9. "as another poster pointed out"?

... " it was organized by the local politician."

The "other poster" would of course be moi. Unless you're referring to the other poster who posted the name of the politician some 20 minutes after I posted the fact that the little project was the brainchild of the Republican politician slash big-time gun gal in question.

I assumed that the firearm would have to be transferred through a licensed dealer. I kinda doubted that the school would become a licensed dealer for the purpose.

But gosh, if it's cool for schools to raffle off firearms, it's beyond me why it would be "inconceivable" for it to be a licensed dealer of firearms. The school is pretty much dealing in firearms, I'd say.

Your knowledge of Hindu history and geography is overwhelming. It has nothing to do with the Hindus I know well who are vegetarian. My closest Hindu friends/acquaintances come from Sri Lanka, just fyi. The place where those peaceable Buddhists have long been busily at work trying to exterminate them ... with firearms, quite often. Going against type isn't that unusual.

Other children at my neighbourhood school come from places where armed paramilitaries are active, and belong to ethnocultural communities whose members have been persecuted because of their ethnicity or religion or political opinion in countries where firearms are used against those communities by state or state-tolerated/backed actors. Firearms simply have no place in their school. As I said, the situation would be different, say, in an Aboriginal community in Canada's north. And given the noticeably white / native-born homogeneity of Lampasas County, Texas (as compared to the US as a whole, the second percentage given) --

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/48281.html

White persons, percent, 2000 - 86.8% - 71.0%
Black or African American persons, percent, 2000 - 3.1% - 11.5%
American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent, 2000 - 0.7% - 0.6%
Asian persons, percent, 2000 - 0.8% - 2.7%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, percent, 2000 - 0.1% - 0.1%
Persons reporting some other race, percent, 2000 - 6.5% - 11.7%
Persons of Hispanic or Latino origin, percent, 2000 - 15.1% - 32.0%
White persons, not of Hispanic/Latino origin, percent, 2000 - 79.5% - 52.4%
Foreign born persons, percent, 2000 - 6.0% - 13.9%

.. I guess it just wouldn't be much of an issue in Lampasas. Especially for Republicans.


"You also refer to 'this particular rifle'. ..."

Indeed I did.

"It's a Kimber 22. It's just a plain old inexpensive rifle, ..."

I said:

"But anybody who doesn't think there's an agenda behind this particular rifle and this particular raffle ..."

I assure you that if I had been meaning to refer to this particular KIND OF rifle, I would have said just that. I was talking about the rifle in question, and the kind of rifle it is was of no consequence whatsoever. The fact that it is a rifle with an agenda behind it was the point I was making, rather clearly, I thought.

Or were you going to ignore my post in which the agenda was described in detail, too?

A thread a DU hailing an activity originated by a Republican politician and designed to get publicity for a Republican politician. Imagine that.

[LinuxUser]

10. It is inconceivable that a school could have an FFL

You're not familiar with the BATF and how FFLs work.

There are two kinds of FFL: the regular FFL and the "curio and relic" (C&R) FFL. The C&R FFL is for collectors who want to be able to buy certain firearms which are designated "curios and relics". There's an official list of such firearms and rules for designating them, and people with that C&R FFL can buy and sell those directly, subject to a bunch of restrictions. Obviously, a new firearm like this Kimber isn't a C&R so I won't talk about C&R further.

The standard FFL is a busines license. This is for a person or a business which is in the firearms business. Over the years, that type of FFL became widely abused, with a lot of people getting them and having firearms "businesses" which run out of their house and which aren't really in any business except allowing the holders to buy guns easily and at wholesale prices. The BATF started cracking down on this in a big way during the Clinton years and started yanking FFLs from anyone who didn't have a real gun business, meaning buying and selling firarms on a regular basis, and having a place of business. The BATF started looking at municipal codes, too, so if someone said "yes, my home is my firearms business address" and the municipal codes said "no retail business at that location" the BATF would yank the FFL.

So, unless this school was regularly buying and selling firarms and operating a retail firearms business (with a shop, etc), they would not qualify for an FFL and their FFL would be yanked if they had one. I don't think a school could be a firearms business because, due to one of the Gun Free schools Acts passed at some point (I'm not up on the details here) it's not legal to possess guns in a school in general, so there's no way you could have a school as a firearms business. It's pretty much inconceivable that the BATF would grant an FFL to a regular school anyway. Maybe they would to "Bob's Gunsmithing Institute" but they would not to a regular elementary school.

Do some searches on "BATF" and "FFL" and read about how the process works, who gets them and who doesn't and you'll see, a school won't get one.

Nor would they need one. They cost quite a bit of money, more than that rifle is worth. School administrators are always worried about liability, and being in the gun business carries some liability with it. Unless they are transfering large numbers of firearms all the time, it would be cheaper and easier to just go through a local FFL. In Central Texas, it shouldn't be too hard to find one who's willing to help.

And thanks for the compliment about my knowledge of Hinduism, but I still feel like I have no idea what it means. One other thing is that I think that different castes of Hindus have different rules. Maybe it's fine for Rajputs to hunt but it's not ok for other groups. I really don't know.

And also, I did acknowledge in my post that this raffle had an agenda. Obviously you are correct, it has an agenda and it's getting publicity for a political cause and one specific politician.

[iverglas]

11. uh huh

And once again ...

I don't think a school could be a firearms business because, due to one of the Gun Free schools Acts passed at some point (I'm not up on the details here) it's not legal to possess guns in a school in general, so there's no way you could have a school as a firearms business.

... my point really wasn't about the technicalities of things. It was about the appropriateness of a school dealing in firearms, which is essentially what this school's parent-student-teacher thingy is doing, albeit not technically.

Given the rather strained nature of the schools/guns relationship in the US, and the rather herculean efforts to keep guns *out* of schools, it's that appropriateness, or absence thereof, that is my point.

Obviously you are correct, it has an agenda and it's getting publicity for a political cause and one specific politician.

There we go.

And it's the subject of a thread at democraticunderground. And I'm just wondering why I'm the only person wondering why.

I don't mind, though. Exposing agendas is always fun.

[LinuxUser]

13. Making schools safer

Guns in schools, and the "herculian" efforts to keep guns out of schools, is an interesting point. I'll make this post about the most famous of the school shootings: the Columbine shooting. It is a good example of guns in schools and violence in schools. What was the cause of them, how could they have been prevented and mitigated?

First of all, there were PLENTY of warning signs that these two youths had problems and might have been dangerous. I think that more awareness about such things as potential for violence, bullying, etc, might have prevented the situation from arising.

Gun control laws didn't prevent it. The perpetrators had broken a whole series of laws before they even showed up at the school on the day of the crime. No one under 21 is allowed to possess a handgun in the US. They broke numerous other laws too.

Then, a whole bunch of things went wrong on the day itself. An armed security guard had a shot at the perpetrators from 70 yards. He didn't take this shot, because he didn't have the right equipment or training to take it. A person with a basic level of handgun training can't make a shot at 70 yards and hit reliably. A person with a high level of training could make that shot with a handgun. A person with a high level of training and an appropriate weapon, like an AR-15 or an MP-5, could make that shot with a very high level of confidence, and the situation would have ended right there.

When the police showed up, they took the worst possible response. They sealed off the area. They didn't go in to resolve the situation; they let the killers do their killing without any hinderance. The right thing would have been to go in immediately and shoot the perpetrators. If I had been a parent at a school where some crazies are shooting children, I would have rushed in and dealt with the situation myself. In a hostage situation where there is no active shooting going on, maybe it's better to wait, but if there are shots being fired, you don't wait around. You go in and stop the problem. If the police were unwilling to take the correct actions, parents should have done it.

Unfortunately, with all the "gun-free schools" laws we have now, schools are completely disarmed, unless they have enough money to hire full-time law enforcement officers. Every crazy wannabe mass murderer now knows that schools are perfect, undefended easy targets where he will have plenty of time to kill and he won't meet any resistance. If schools have responsible, trained, screened people on site, with guns, that is the fastest way to stop these types of problems. That is the answer. Israel has a problem with people coming into schools and shooting at children. They have a solution, too: teachers and staff have Uzis. If a problem starts, there is someone right there who is ready to solve the problem. That person is not an outsider; that person is a teacher who knows the children, who knows the environment, and can use good judgment in shoot/no-shoot decisions. There's no one in a better position to deal with a school shooting than a teacher or staff member who is screened, trained, armed, and on-site. Having cops seal the area off and letting the killers do their work is the worst way to handle it because it's helping the killers.

The killing at Columbine didn't stop until the killers killed themselves. No one hindered them at any step of the way. That's the fundamental problem there.

On another issue, while these incidents are dramatic, high-profile and get lots of news coverage, they are extremely rare. More children die in football accidents than in school shootings.

[MrSandman]

14. Training to rectify the response mistakes...

Is now available:

http://www.killology.com/school_notes_rapid_response.htm

[LinuxUser]

15. Great reference

From that site:

"Extraordinary vs. Hostage/Barricade. An extraordinary deployment calls for the first patrol units on scene to form 2 or 3 man teams and immediately locate and stop the gunmen/gunman. Patrol response to a hostage/barricade involves setting containment, perimeters, gathering intel., and requesting appropriate resources."

and:

"Find, confront & stop the deadly behavior!"

That's exactly the right response and confirms what I said. But then again, I have had some amount of tactical firearms training so this stuff is obvious to me. How it happens that I have more and better tactical training than the patrol units or the armed guard who were there is an unpleasant mystery to me. What happened in Columbine is the first responders treated an active shooting situation as a hostage situation. Wrong wrong wrong, and many lives were lost because of it. When there is an active shooting situation, the right thing to do is go in NOW with whatever you've got. Every second of delay means another life could be lost. The cops should have done it, and when they failed to, parents on site should have done it. Both groups failed in their duties and paid a high price. I think there was/is a big lawsuit against the police department because their handling of this was so unbelievably bad.

[MrSandman]

24. But wasn't SOP for airline hijacking...

To comply in all ways until 9/11? Big events change SOP.

The police offficers I talked to about a school shooter would be going in. Then, they are so geographically spread out around here, that they are trained to act rather than wait for a supervisor.

[LinuxUser]

27. Depends - in America, yes, unfortunately

Yes, the default American SOP for hijackings before 9/11 was to comply. That was the SOP because our authorities have been telling us "don't do anything, wait for help to arrive" for a whole range of things, up to and including hijacking an airplane. You're being mugged? Comply. Someone has broken into your house? Comply. You're being raped? Comply (some "rape prevention experts" even advised women to carry condoms "just in case"). Your plane is hijacked? Comply. It has existed in other times and places, too. Your village is being attacked by a pogrom? Comply.

I think that the "always comply" message is wrong, and is in fact evil. We should have a deeply ingrained reflex to resist evil. If we have lost that reflex then we are in deep trouble and we won't get out of that trouble until we rediscover that reflex. Anyone who tells you that you should not have a reflex to resist evil is not someone you should trust.

The "always comply" message gives us several deeper messages. One, that we don't have the power or ability to defend ourselves. This is wrong. The tool that is needed to win in a confrontation is WILL. If there is will, all the other necessary tools can be found or created, or won't be needed. "Always comply" is the opposite of will. The 9/11 hijackers were almost unarmed, but they had WILL and so they were able to do what they did.

The "always comply" mode also makes us more vulnerable. The 9/11 hijackers knew that we had an "always comply / dial 911" mentality and that was the basis of what they did. You'll notice that they have never tried something like that on an El Al flight. If they tried that on an El Al flight, half the passengers would rush into the aile and start beating on them and they would go to their virgins before getting anywhere near a cockpit. Every airplane pilot should have a deep-seated instinct that says "as long as I am conscious and we're in the air, I will stay at the controls of this airplane." Those pilots must have known they were doing the wrong thing when they gave up control of the airplane, but we have been hit so hard with this "always comply and dial 911" message that they probably went against their instincts, and we all paid a price over that.

The "always comply" thing may have been SOP at the time, but it violates all of our instincts and we should have known that it was wrong, and it also goes against the American traditions of self-defense and self-reliance. I can't imagine that an El Al pilot would EVER have hand the controls of his plane to a hijacker, even before 9/11. They have a culture that says "do not comply with people who are evil".

We need to rediscover that culture here.

Even in the example of the Columbine shootings, the police were in "comply with evil" mode. I don't know what they were waiting for. A sign from God that "now is the time to go in and shoot these killers"? God doesn't provide signs; he gives us will, and if we're lucky, he gives us weapons. There were 400 cops standing around collecting overtime while two insane killers were shooting children, without any hinderance. After the shootings, we had a national uproar about gun control. We should have had a national uproar over how it was humanly possible for 400 cops, and numerous parents, to stand around doing nothing for hours while madmen are shooting children inside a school. Same thing after 9/11. We started taking nailclippers from grandmothers. We should have had a national uproar over how a pilot could entrust the controls of his airplane over to madmen. We should have an uproar over people who tell young women to comply with rapists, or people who say that if someone breaks into your house, just be passive and hope that you don't get hurt. I don't get it. If you send evil people a strong message which says "do what you want, we won't resist", well, it should be obvious what's going to happen.

Part of the reason for this "always comply, be passive, dial 911" mentality is that it is a denial of the existence of irrational evil. The fact is, there are a small number of people out there who regard themselves as predators. Seeing someone who is passive and not offering resistance does not trigger a rational response in them. For us normal people, if we were trying to steal something (which we wouldn't do because we are normal people) and someone didn't resist, we would simply finish stealing the thing and leave without causing further harm. To a predator, seeing a person acting passively triggers a different thought. The predator sees this as "prey behavior" and decides "this person is prey". The predator will then decide to do even worse things than he had originally intended. Maybe he'll beat the person, or rape, or kill, because the person has reacted in "prey" mode. We rational people don't think like that; it's alien to us and we would like to deny that those people exist. Anyone who says "comply with evil people" is trying to deny the existence of those people. I honestly believe that much of the support for gun control in the US comes from people who are in that state of denial. That denial is comfortable. Unfortunately it pays a terrible dividend from time to time.

Even if there is no hope of winning against evil, at least if you die resisting you die with honor and dignity.

[iverglas]

30. what a pile of poop

"Even if there is no hope of winning against evil, at least if you die resisting you die with honor and dignity."

I resisted to the point where my life was in danger, I complied, I escaped, I went to the police, I testified in court, and the evil was dealt with by society in the way that society has agreed that such evil will be dealt with: the person who committed it was imprisoned. Howzat for a message?

Choose to die -- and to let the evil in question go unpunished and be reiterated, very likely -- if you wish. DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO.

And the rest of your screed (sheesh, is no one worried about the health of your keyboard??) is utter and complete bullshit. Anyone who believes it needs a brain, and anyone who doesn't believe it but says it anyway needs a conscience. I have no idea why you say it, of course, so I don't suggest that either statement applies to you.

[anonymous44]

31. what happened?

[LinuxUser]

32. I should have been much more clear

In my usage, "resist evil" doesn't mean "shoot someone every time he pisses you off." If someone wrongs me in business, I'll take him to court, and I'll accept the outcome. If someone breaks into my house while I'm not there and steals stuff, well, I'll file a police report and try to forget about it. If some stupid drunk person tries to punch me in the face, but through context and other cues it seems like he's not attempting to or not able to do serious harm, I'll block it, push him away and leave, and if I have a bruise, well, that's how it goes, I'll just have a good story to annoy my friends with. Resorting to violence to solve a problem should be the last possible solution. It should be the solution when murderers are actively killing children in a school and the cops are standing around doing nothing, or when terrorists are seizing control of a plane, or also during personal crimes like an unprovoked attack or a robbery. That's the time to resist. It should be a reflex to resist in those times. I have had my house broken into and things were stolen. Fortunately I wasn't there. The cops didn't do anything even though they knew who did it. It made me angry, but, whatever, I wasn't at risk of getting hurt so I'll just accept it and go shopping. Life isn't fair always and the outcome isn't always what I want and that's just part of being here on this planet of ours.

[LinuxUser]

17. Looks like a great class, btw

I read the full course description. It sounds like a good class, but on reading, it's obvious to me that policemen are the wrong responders. The class talks about how important it is for them to get familiar with the school grounds, teachers and staff to handle these things correctly. It's true that that knowledge is the most important knowledge in this situation, but no police officer is going to know as much as someone who works full-time at the school.

If every school had some teachers with basic firearms skills (http://www.frontsight.com), took that class, and had access to the right kind of weapons (http://www.hkpro.com/mp5.htm) there wouldn't be any school shootings, or if there were, they wouldn't get very far.

[MrSandman]

25. We have two high schools and two jr. highs...

In the county. All four have a deputy sheriff assigned as f/t PRO. They were assigned after Columbine, but their effect has been to really intervene in behaviors before they get reallly serious.

I stopped by one of the HS's last week as the Deputy was escorting an adult out and informing him he is no longer welcome on school property.

[LinuxUser]

23. Bleeding to death waiting for help

By the way, this thread made me wonder what's the status on the various lawsuits against the school and the police department so I did a quick search. Well, this is an old article but it does describe how one of the deaths happened:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/11/27/columbine.lawsuit/

The police officers, there to serve and protect, created an ideal environment for the killers to do their work by preventing anyone from stopping the shooting, and they gave the killers so much time that one of the wounded teachers bled to death.

It's hard to imagine a worse response. The police not only didn't do their jobs, but they prevented anyone else from taking reasonable, humane actions. Any parent who knew how to use a gun would have done better than what the allegedly trained and professional police did. Gun control advocates want us to rely on such people for our lives? I don't get it.

"Bleeding to death waiting for help" is what might happen when you choose owning a phone over owning a gun.

[aikoaiko]

37. Teachers should be CCW

If they really want to protect against Columbine like events, Schools should let teachers carry weapons concealed.

[alwynsw]

16. The only agenda of the originator of the thread in posting it is

RKBA and the fact that firearms can be used for good purposes without ever being fired.. Q.E.D.

I have others, but RKBA an positive firearms use are the only issues in play here.

Some of my other issues of interest are abortion rights, gay rights, effective education reform, tax reform, abolishing the Electoral College, and several others.

[Columbia]

18. Yeah, right... Freeper!!!

Just kidding. Happy Thanksgiving!!! :toast:

[alwynsw]

20. Poopie head!

:spank:

[iverglas]

21. could be

The only agenda of the originator of the thread in posting it is RKBA and the fact that firearms can be used for good purposes without ever being fired.

... except, on the second agenda item, that it has been pretty well established that the actual purpose for which this particular firearm is being used is to advance the career of a right-wing politician.

On the first, I'll be damned if I can figure out what a post about a firearm being raffled off has to do with the right to keep and bear arms. Seems kinda like posting a message about a lawyer being raffled off and claiming that the purpose of posting it is "the right to counsel". The right to counsel exists and may be exercised without lawyers being raffled off by parent-teacher groups, and raffles really have not much to do with rights.

[alwynsw]

22. Then stop trying to figure it out.

You will obviously never get it. The who is not the important issue here. The what is the issue.

[-..__...]

19. Agenda?

:tinfoilhat:

Yes, perhaps.

What I can't figure out is why you (an educated and "enlightened" person), hasn't figured out yet what that "agenda" is and it's relationship to DU.

The answer is really quite simple and shouldn't make you wonder why you're "the only person wondering why".

[LinuxUser]

12. Hinduism

By the way, all my examples of Hindus and hunting are from Rajastan, the northern-most region of India, which had the strongest Moghul and Persian influence. The Rajastan royalty were serious about their Hinduism and serious about hunting. Your Sri Lankan friends are some of the southern-most Hindus with the least Persian influence. They may both be called "Hindus" and they may have the same holy books but it's probably quite different in practice. I just don't know much about southern India and Sri Lanka. I hope to change that at some point by visiting. I'll do it when I have a chance.

[CarinKaryn]

38. Welcome!

You've here promoting a right wing agenda, sponsored by a right wingnut representiative who wants to raffle guns (for the children) and now you've linked to Oleg V's site as some kind of validation of your position.

Have ya seen the picutrs of nekid wimen with big 'uns/guns he dun took?

:hi:
Welcome to DEMOCRATIC underground!

[aikoaiko]

34. Schools and FFL

The school probably won't take possession of the gun and it would be proper for it to be a citizen-to-citizen transfer with no FFL involved.

[racine]

26. Bake sale vs. Fire sale

I would believe that there are more firearms in this town than say XBoxes with Grand Theft Auto, Dungeons and Dragons, Godiva Chocolates, BMW's, or vintage wine. Have you ever driven through Lampasas? If they were going to deliberately use these rifles to commit a crime that would be one thing. But since it is for a good cause who cares?

[alwynsw]

28. Thanks for your input. I couldn't agree more.

Checked your profile. You may be interested in our brand new Outdoor Life Group. IT just got up and running a few days ago. You can find it via the DU groups link on the forums page.

[iverglas]

29. "since it is for a good cause who cares?"

So ...

if Larry Flynt donates a year's subscription to one of his publications, the local parent-teacher-student association should organize a raffle to raise money for the school, with the donated subscription as a prize?

Kindly do not pretend that I have said

Republican state representative = Larry Flynt

or

Firearm = pornography

Thank you.

You have said:
"If they were going to deliberately use these rifles to commit a crime that would be one thing."

No one uses pornography to commit crimes.

You have said:
"But since it is for a good cause who cares?"

So why would anyone care if a school raffled off a subscription to a pornographic publication donated by Larry Flynt?

Larry Flynt gets a boatload of publicity, some lucky mental/moral midget gets a subscription to Hustler, and the school gets some money.

We cool?

[LinuxUser]

33. A tough one!

You pose a tough dilema Senora Iverglas. Here's one possible way to look at it:

By societies norms and laws, children have no business looking at any porn at all until they are no longer children. Therefore, Larry Flynt's kind donation is inappropriate because it's something that students at the school shouldn't have access to.

However, it is legally and morally acceptable for children to have access to (with parental supervision) firearms and it's normal for children to learn how to use them while they are still children, and therefore the rifle makes sense.

But that's not completely satisfactory to me. Maybe it's just my personal views. I think children have always had some level of access to porn and I don't think it's as harmful as some people in Texas say it is. But still, should a school accept a donation from Larry Flynt? Maybe, maybe not.

Here's another example: some very generous person wants to donate a car, and let's assume that the driving age in the state is 18, so none of the students could actually drive this car should they win it. What do you think of that? I would say "yes, do the rafle" because it's so generous... I guess what I'm saying here is I can't come up with a good "standard" of what kind of things are appropriate and which aren't.

My feelings:

A DVD that glorifies or advocates violence: No.
A porn video: probably not.
A car: yes
A rifle: yes
A small airplane: yes
A vacation in Europe: yes

But I'm not sure if I have any real rational standard behind these feelings or if it's just opinion.

[MrSandman]

39. Don't know as how they should object...

If there were buyers for the raffle.

I doubt that Mr. Flynts donation would generate much interest.


There is a fund for needy children raffling off a Marlin 336 here(No politicians involved). It is a really spartan rifle, but for $2 its a better chance than Powerball.

[aikoaiko]

35. Awesome idea.

I wish schools around here would be as creative. I think raffling off a gun in Texas is a good example of community standards governing what is appropriate or not.

Whats the big fuss? Oh, probably some people think guns are bad and evil. I forot.

[mosin]

40. I don't get the objections...

other than as anti-gun bias. There's nothing inappropriate with a school--or a fire department--raffling off firearms in lieu of a bake sale or car raffle. The firearms will be transferred through a FFL to a recipient, likely a parent, who passes the background check.

It wasn't that long ago in the U.S. that kids frequently carried rifles to school, even in NYC, for shooting clubs. My junior high in Texas 30 years ago had a rifle club.

My kids can't take them to school now, but each of my kids has his or her own .22LR single-shot rifle that I bought as a present for each one's first Christmas. My son has recently graduated to a full-size rifle. My daughter still happily shoots her first pink-stocked model.

There is nothing inappropriate with associating, under proper supervision, children and firearms. If I lived near Lampasas, I'd buy a raffle ticket.