Serial number ammunition-CA

[VotefurKerry]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1896&ncid=1896&e=15&u=/nm/20041007/us_nm/crime_bullets_dc_1

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

1. Right

And this will somehow be more effective than the magical ballistic fingerprinting database that comes up from time to time?

Handloads would be the way to go..untraceable.

[6th Borough]

2. Or simply cross the border and buy ammo in Arizona, Nevada, Oregon...

Not to mention the stock of unused ammo available (hell, I've got over 1k rounds dating back to the '70s).

As if a criminal couldn't find an unstamped cartridge.

[FatSlob]

14. Lightweight...

Only 1000? That's nothing...I've got 12000! I'm an ammo whore.

[skippythwndrdog]

35. Ammo whores unite!

I don't know the exact count, but aside from .22's, I've well over 10,000 rounds.

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[Fescue4u]

3. 1 or 2 strokes of a file on a round

problem solved.

Lead isnt exactly that hard of a material

[slackmaster]

4. Interesting idea

A few of the dumbest of dumb crooks might get caught. I question whether the state's cost of administering such a system might not be better spent on public education or health care.

I presently have about 20,000 rounds of handgun ammunition in stock if you include .22 Long Rifle. Some of it is about 40 years old. I also have perhaps 30,000 once-fired, reloadable cases for handgun ammo.

I haven't bought any ammunition at retail in California for about five years.

[goju]

5. So, the point is a "gun database", correct?

I find it difficult to believe that they would suggest such defeatable measures in any honest attempt at solving crime. So, the question is, why would they propose such a thing?

Cost: This measure would obviously drive up the cost of manufacturing ammunition not to mention creating the obligatory tax that must surely accompany this new system. Not bad! They get tax dollars to be wasted on headline making/talking points producing/reelection campaigning, crime control bait and switch measures, and at the same time, they drive up the price of ammunition effectively reducing the ammount sold, especially to the lower income demographic. A double whammy.

Database: Ask yourself what the end goal of the gun grabbers is? Register all guns first, collect them later. Great idea this ammo trace would be. We all know that any crook with half a brain will sidestep this little waste of time and money as easily as they do all other gun control measures. So, that only leaves us law abiding citizens to populate the database. They get your name, address, and some idea of what types of firearms you own, and you get put in the "possibly/probably criminal" database, and you get to pay for it. Fantastic idea!

Hmm maybe Im cynacil, or maybe Ive just seen too many clever attempts at gun registration. A turd by any other name smells just as bad.

[Dolomite]

6. Christ you guys! At least they're TRYING

to do something!

I for one will be witholding my political support on this bill and any other future CA gun bills up and until the time they back a law mandating the trigger finger amputation of every adult male in the state.

Like the NRA always says: Freedom isn't free.

[goju]

7. Trying to do....what?

Thats the question, really. What do you think this measure would accomplish? Could there be an underlying goal, one that they wont come out and say publicly? Havent we seen this wolf in sheep's clothing before?

They could at least make it a little less obvious. Its almost embarrassing to watch them dress up this stinky old pig in brand new clothes, every year!

[Romulus]

8. what I don't understand

is how this will link certain ammo to a certain buyer.

If the factory puts out 100K rounds of handgun ammo per lot (just a wild guess), and people buy the ammo in 20- or 50-round boxes, that's a hell of a lot of potential buyers (2000 boxes of 50, and 5000 boxes of 20) to go round up and interrogate.:shrug:

That's assuming the "id number" is a lot number.

[Remmah]

9. Would be a tough thing to do on a shotgun shell.

Depending on the shot size 200-800 pellets per ounce.

Run a registered bullet on a wire wheel or use a nail file and it'll become untracable.

Interesting idea, impractical to implement. Of coarse the real motive may be to drive the price of ammo through the roof and to criminialize honest citizens.

Didn't California originally say that ballistic fingerprinting of firearms was not going to work??

[7th_Sephiroth]

20. rifled slugs

and its a stupid idea

[-..__...]

10. Someone is going to make a lot of money

This approach is similar to an earlier idea where the "code" (I believe the code in this case was the SN of the firearm), was etched into the chamber (or chambers), of every firearm sold. When the cartridge is fired it expands and the "code" is embossed into the spent casing (assuming a semi-auto).


http://www.ammocoding.com/index.php

http://www.ammocoding.com/faqs.php


"What will it cost?

The cost to implement this system is substantial, but results in a small cost per bullet for the end users. There are several significant manufacturers of ammunition. Each one would have to purchase at least one, if not more; laser engraving machines and material handlers. We have received estimates that each set of equipment would cost $300,000 to $500,000. A licensing fee will also be applied to each bullet sold. However, since there are approximately 10 billion bullets sold in the United States alone each year, the equipment costs, once amortized over the number of bullets sold, are insignificant. There will also be administrative costs for the retailers. All of these costs will most likely be passed onto the purchaser, making this a system paid for by user fees."


Looks like they're aware of the non-existent problems associated with ballistic fingerprinting.

"Ballistic Fingerprinting


* The system currently being proposed will be expensive to create and maintain.
* The unique characteristics of the fingerprinting system are easy to alter.
* Regular use of a firearm will change the unique characteristics of a firearm.
* Judging the comparison of a bullet to the signature of a firearm requires a subjective determination which is prone to human error.
* Ballistic fingerprinting takes considerable time and is expensive to perform.
* Information isn’t available on the millions of firearms already in existence. Information on new firearms will be outdated long before the firearm is no longer in use.


I could see some small potential with this approach, but only if it were done on a nationl scale.

Questions???

Does it work with lead bullets? Given the chamber pressures exerted on a bullet, I can't see how the "code" would remain intact on a lead or copper jacketed bullet with a lead base.

How would this apply to imported ammo?

What if someone used re-cycled or range brass?

Does it create a de facto firearms registration data base? If a person purchases ammuntion, then logically that person must own a firearm(s).

[Romulus]

12. interesting info

Which now REALLY piques my interest in how you can serialize the individual round of ammo and tie to a particular buyer.

10 billion bullets sold in the United States alone each year

If you give each individual round its own serial number, that's 10 billion different serial numbers with this many digits to engrave: 100000000000.

http://www.dailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,200~20954~2453245,00.html
Under the system, codes nearly invisible to the naked eye would be stamped on a bullet repeatedly to ensure some could be read after they left a gun's chamber. California would be the first state in the country to have such a system, said Randy Rossi, director of the Justice Department's firearms division.

If you keep adding zeros you will eventually run out of room on the round to engrave those numbers!

FW Slack has told us, all gun owners in CA are "registered" somewhere. I read an article on this serialization plans that described how all CA gun dealers have a scanner system that they use to scan CA drivers'licenses as part of the CA sale process. This serialization plan is supposed to piggyback off that scanning infrastructure.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20041006-9999-1n6gunstamp.html
The state's more than 1,600 licensed firearms dealers already have the electronic equipment to record the information – scanning the code on the ammunition box and electronically swiping the driver license – in the same way they collect required personal information for gun transactions

The same article talks about the reloader aspect:
The plan would require putting serial numbers on all handgun ammunition possessed in public, sold or imported into the state. To accommodate law-abiding sport shooters and those who reload their own cartridges, anyone on their way to or from a shooting range or hunting trip would be exempt. It's unclear how this provision would work, with supporters acknowledging that details on many aspects of the system need to be worked out.

[HiddenInVA]

11. What a joke....

Yet another 'feel good' method being fed to the sheeple by the
politicians, so that all of the good little sheep will think that the
pol's are actually doing something productive. Heaven forbid that they
actually enforce the laws that say, "Murder is bad!" and actually hold
the perp responsible for their actions. Gee, what an antiquated idea!

How asinine can you get? A swipe of a nailfile, and the s/n is
gone, though how they expect to be able to reliably read the s/n from
a fired bullet makes me wonder also.....

Then, think of the paperwork that'll be involved in something like
this. At the manufacturer's level, the wholesaler, the dealer, then to
the individual. Do they expect Joe Sixpack to keep track of his s/n's?
What if they're stolen?

:eyes:

[TX-RAT]

13. interesting

Is the state of California going to except the liability's that may occur from a case exploding in the chamber, due to a weakened state after lazer etching. To etch your going to have to remove some metal, even worse is using heat in the process of etching.

[slackmaster]

15. As a target shooter I'd be more concerned with accuracy

Any alteration to a precision-swaged bullet could throw it off balance and cause it to wobble in flight.

If they pass this I will continue to buy all of my ammunition out of state.

[Romulus]

16. wouldn't that be "importing?" (n/t)

[TX-RAT]

17. I agree

Having shot bench rest for years, bullet performance is critical to small groups.
I've shot wildcat cartridges for several years. Most if not all had to formed, either by fire forming or sizing dies or both. One thing i learned in fire forming, was to inspect cases carefully, small nicks or scratches can turn into case separations, or a complete bolt lock down.

Heres one for you Slack
200 yrd
5 shot
6mm-308
.169 center to center.
Harold Broughton built Sako action Shillen barrel
My personal best, shot in Notrees TX.

[Lefty48197]

18. Without reading any of the other responses, I wonder how many of them

could be summarized as, "ridiculous. It can't work".

[slackmaster]

19. It all depends on what you mean by "work"

If it prevents a handful of crimes or allows a dozen to be solved per year but costs millions of dollars to implement, the money would not have been well spent IMO. It's an untested idea. I tend to oppose experimenting with public funds.

[Lefty48197]

21. That's an interesting question you've raised

The question being How many lives must be saved, or crimes prevented relative to the dollars spent, to make it all worth while.
I'm interested in knowing what the ratio of dollars spent per saved life is that makes these things worth while in your eyes, and the rest of the pro rkba gang. I'm guessing that the families of murder victims have a different ratio in mind.

I remember the NRA actively lobbying against mandating the use of taggants in materials that could be used to make bombs. Oh sure, they might add a few cents to your barrels of gun powder, or truck loads of fertilizer, but most law abiding citizens are willing to pay a little bit more in order to prevent misuse, and abuse of any product. The NRA voiceboxes told us over and over how it "wouldn't work. It'll be too expensive..."
When those nuts in the D.C. area were murdering people, many others spoke out in favor of mandatory "fingerprint" ballistic samples from rifles and hand guns. Right on cue, the pro rkba gang lectured us ad nauseum on why "it will never work, don't bother trying".

Sometime before I grow old and die, I would like to hear one, JUST ONE, gun proliferation enthusiast admit that there is a problem with guns being too available to criminals, and that there are in fact things that can be done to keep guns out of the hands of those that will use them to rob and kill.
"Just enforce the existing gun laws" isn't enough. We need to restrict the sales of bullets. (can you imagine some crackhead or alcoholic reloading bullets before heading out to rob the 7-11?)

[MrSandman]

30. That one again...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=44507

[slackmaster]

32. Tagged

;-)

[slackmaster]

31. OK

The question being How many lives must be saved, or crimes prevented relative to the dollars spent, to make it all worth while.
I'm interested in knowing what the ratio of dollars spent per saved life is that makes these things worth while in your eyes, and the rest of the pro rkba gang.

I have no answer for that. If you had a billion dollars to spend on any worthwhile project for the betterment of humanity, how would you spend it?

I'm guessing that the families of murder victims have a different ratio in mind.

Since I don't have a ratio in mind that's almost certainly true.

I remember the NRA actively lobbying against mandating the use of taggants in materials that could be used to make bombs. Oh sure, they might add a few cents to your barrels of gun powder, or truck loads of fertilizer, but most law abiding citizens are willing to pay a little bit more in order to prevent misuse, and abuse of any product.

You are alluding to a bill that would have mandated use of taggants in fertilizer, which was actively opposed by many agricultural interests. It was opposed by Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa because of the impact the proposal would have had on the price of fertilizer. The NRA's opposition to putting taggants in gunpowder, which isn't being done anywhere in the world, was a minor factor in the bill's defeat.

...many others spoke out in favor of mandatory "fingerprint" ballistic samples from rifles and hand guns. Right on cue, the pro rkba gang lectured us ad nauseum on why "it will never work, don't bother trying".

Has Maryland's ballistic fingerprinting program solved any crimes yet? How about New York's?

Sometime before I grow old and die, I would like to hear one, JUST ONE, gun proliferation enthusiast admit that there is a problem with guns being too available to criminals, and that there are in fact things that can be done to keep guns out of the hands of those that will use them to rob and kill.

I agree with that completely. Why is the Gun Control Act of 1968 not being effectively enforced?

"Just enforce the existing gun laws" isn't enough....

Since that hasn't been tried yet, on what do you base your statement?

[Left of Lenin]

33. Can you imagine the wrongful conviction potential,

if some criminal takes spent pistol bullets from the backstop at a range, loads one into a shotgun shell, and shoots someone from close range?

The police bust your door down and arrest you for murder because the code off the bullet was traced back to you.

[skippythwndrdog]

34. Another fine example

of the un/misinformed legislature(s) jumping to pass feel good legislation that serves no useful purpose.

I won't attempt to get into the practicalities of number sequences or physics that make it impractical. It's been done.

What I see coming from this is the criminalization of many shooters who will purchase ammunition in other states to avoid such tracking (can you see the recordkeeping nightmare this can become?) or start casting and loading to avoid even more backhand firearms registration.

Nothing is too extreme for the anti- crowd.

:shrug:

[mosin]

37. I would certainly...

start casting my own bullets to avoid this. Currently I reload, but I purchase all my bullets.

I can only hope that Schwarzenegger would oppose this, since he vetoed the ammunition registration bill this year.

[mosin]

36. What happens...

with all my homemade, reused ammunition? Whenever I'm through at the range, I sweep up all the brass in my immediate area, take it home, sort it, clean it, and reuse it. It may or may not have originally come from my gun.

This is another silly, unworkable attempt by anti-gun California politicians to turn honest, peaceful citizens into criminals with laws that have little impact on real criminals.

[MrSandman]

38. I wonder...

Since I have 15 rounds that I carry and rotate them as the chambered round, they change from nice shiny silver to silver and "brass-colored" cartridges from being run through the action. Every 6 months I will buy a new box for carry.

My question: Would this be "defacinfg the serial number" and punishable?