Arms deal draws fire

[MrBenchley]

The scummy gun industry in action...who's surprised that the Pirates of Halliburton found them a peer?

"Iraq cops will soon be armed with AK-47s from Indiana firm.
U.S. authorities in Iraq have awarded a $35 million contract to an Indiana gun dealer infamous for its role as a mass distributor of assault weapons and ammo clips at U.S. gun shows.
Kiesler Police Supply Inc. of Jeffersonville, Ind., will deliver thousands of Polish and Czech-made AK-47s, Soviet-era machine guns - including some with built-in silencers - and Austrian 9-mm. handguns to equip a new Iraqi police force.
Kiesler supplied many of the AK-47s and other assault weaponry used by David Koresh and his Branch Davidians cult in their 1993 shootout with federal agents in Waco, Tex.
When Congress banned assault weapons in 1994, it banned high-capacity ammo clips as well. But Kiesler enticed police departments to trade in thousands of already-manufactured 30- or 40-round clips, exempt from the ban, in exchange for discounts on new guns.
Kiesler touched off a 1999 controversy in Miami when it was caught reselling old Dade County police revolvers that were used by street gangs in Chicago. Last October, the company was fined $2,500 by the Massachusetts attorney general after a sting operation snared Kiesler selling ammo to minors over the Internet."

http://www.nydailynews.com/05-16-2004/news/story/193869p-167551c.html

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

1. First of all

Who cares who is selling arms to the Iraqi police. Chances are they are going to be needing these rifles. It's not like it is an under the table thing.

Second, anyone else notice the in-distinction between CLASS III AK-47's being sent to the Iraqi police and the weapons banned in 1994? Here's a hint: full auto firearms of any type are heavily regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934.

Anyone else here find the idea of a suppressed AK a little bit absurd? The action of the rifle itself is noisy as hell, half of the magazines rattle ammunition and the bullet is still supersonic.

[MrBenchley]

2. Amazingly...SOME people do care about criminal enterprises....

and most do not really give much of a crap about gun porn...

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

5. Has the gov't brought them into court?

Has the BATFE brought them up and convicted them in a federal court for fireamrs violations? Show me where they have been proven to be making criminal transactions and I will believe you. The whole guilty until I say they are innocent things gets old.

[MrBenchley]

8. Wow....swell to see who our "pro-gun Democrats" speak up for...

"Kiesler touched off a 1999 controversy in Miami when it was caught reselling old Dade County police revolvers that were used by street gangs in Chicago. Last October, the company was fined $2,500 by the Massachusetts attorney general after a sting operation snared Kiesler selling ammo to minors over the Internet."

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

10. Wow I tend to look at facts

Some here like to bleat the emotional all guns are evil line trying desperatly to get the weak minded to believe them.

Besides, I ask you about firearms violations and the best you can come up with is a $2,500 fine for selling ammo to minors. Here in Texas, minors can buy ammo (or used to be able to) so long as the ammunition bought could not be fired in a pistol. These days, most ammunition can be fired in a pistol of one type or another so the law might have been changed.

[MrBenchley]

11. "desperatly to get the weak minded"

[OpSomBlood]

34. Translation: Facts don't matter, stick to the VPC talking points.

n/t

[MrBenchley]

35. And that's why I quote a major newspaper

and you're stuck with the stentorian and its rancid ilk...

[OpSomBlood]

37. Show me again where I quoted the Stentorian.

Your routine is stale.

[MrBenchley]

3. By the way...

"full auto firearms of any type are heavily regulated by the National Firearms Act of 1934."
And yet these scumbags in Hoosier land just happen to have thousands of them lying around....uh-HUH. I think we've found that "black market" that our "enthusiasts" are always rattling on and on about.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

4. "these scumbags in Hoosier"

most likely are licensed class III dealers. Police departments buy their class III weapons from somewhere, you know. They aren't usually made to order.

[MrBenchley]

7. Any excuse in a storm...

"Kiesler touched off a 1999 controversy in Miami when it was caught reselling old Dade County police revolvers that were used by street gangs in Chicago. Last October, the company was fined $2,500 by the Massachusetts attorney general after a sting operation snared Kiesler selling ammo to minors over the Internet."

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

9. Ammo to minors over the internet

isn't quite the same as selling arms to felons, now is it?

So they resold some police turn ins and they wound up in Chicago. Were the sales to buyers with clean records, or were they sent straight to the thugs in Chicago? Before you start screaming straw puchase, how exactly does a gun store control where a gun goes after they make a legal sale to a legal individual? Sounds more like the straw purchasers need to be looked into.

[MrBenchley]

12. It's pretty damn close

and clearly shows these scumbags don't much care who they sell to....

It also shows some "enthusiasts" will try to defend any damn thing...

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

13. So

Were the sales to buyers with clean records, or were they sent straight to the thugs in Chicago?

[MrBenchley]

15. Gee, WTF, ask me next

how desperate the attempt to excuse these scumbags can get...

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

17. Keep dodging

Were the sales to buyers with clean records, or were they sent straight to the thugs in Chicago? If the latter happened as you seem to believe, why has the BATFE not crucified them in court?

[MrBenchley]

19. Happy to...

And hey, I'll be happy to say the scummy gun industry ought to be inspected up the wazoo. Suppose we shut it down for a couple of years while it's probed stem to stern....would that make YOU happy?

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

22. So are you telling me

that you have no idea of whether these were straw purchases or not? If so, that's cool, we can move on. No biggie.

If the BATFE wants to probe a gun dealer, they do it. It's that simple.

[MrBenchley]

23. I told you they're scum

and they are...

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

25. Sez you

NT

[MrBenchley]

28. Me...and the Daily News, and pretty much everyone

who reads the paper....

[MrSandman]

43. Who sold Kiesler the revolvers?...n/t

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

14. So what about the machine guns?

You started off talking about a black market for machine guns, now your running around talking about police revolvers. So what happened to this black market of machine guns that these guys just had laying around?

Or is it that they are licensed class III dealers?

[MrBenchley]

16. So what about them...

"what happened to this black market"
It just got a crooked contract from an unelected drunk. Didn't you read the news story?

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

18. Approved by congress

The contract is a tiny part of the $18.7 billion Iraqi reconstruction program approved by Congress.

Seems like there are lot more that just Shrubby knew about this one.

Besides that, are you asserting that this company has been holding an illegal stockpile of machine guns all this time, and is now selling them in a high-profile deal and the BATFE is sitting on its collective butt?

[MrBenchley]

20. Too TOO funny...

Are you trying to pretend that Congress approved THIS?

Boy, there's no argument TOO desperate for our "pro-gun democrats" is there?

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

21. Really is quite funny

That a bill approved by congress includes the selling of arms to Iraqi police, yet you want to make believe that it is some illegal, black market under the table gun running going on.

FACT: There are new machine guns being built in the US every day by companies and people LICENSED to do so. These new manufacture machine guns are regulated for sale to law enforcement and government agencies ONLY.

Is it at all probable that this sale will technically be to the US government and then distributed to the Iraqi police? Whether these are new or used rifles is a moot point legally if they were imported or built after 1986. They would be treated the same.

[MrBenchley]

24. Yup, hilarious to see the lengths to which

our enthusiasts will close their eyes to wrongdoing whne their precious guns are involved.

"FACT: There are new machine guns being built in the US every day by companies and people LICENSED to do so."
Jeeze, and yet the contract was given to David Koresh's old pal to unload some of his inventory of used guns.

"Whether these are new or used rifles is a moot point"
Gee, wtf, and yet you made such a big point of your FACT although it was moot. As if I gave a small fart....

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

26. You are the one contending this is a black market cache

"Jeeze, and yet the contract was given to David Koresh's old pal to unload some of his inventory of used guns."

Right. It couldn't be that they offered to sell these weapons to the government for less than their competitors?

"Gee, wtf, and yet you made such a big point of your FACT although it was moot. As if I gave a small fart...."

My point, in case it eluded you, was that these things are strictly regulated. New or used makes no difference. The BATFE has the serial numbers of every one of those rifles. Kinda makes it a well known and regulated black market cache, does it not?

[MrBenchley]

29. Go back and look again...

I was wondering why a scumbag in Indiana has many thousands of weapons lying around that he's supposed to be unable to sell in Indiana...

"It couldn't be that they offered to sell these weapons to the government for less than their competitors?"
Is that how you think Halliburton got their contracts? Or is it your contention that all the others are crooked but that this one that involves a scummy gun dealer is the only honest contract pResident Turd has handed out? Either way, it's pretty funny.

"My point, in case it eluded you, was that these things are strictly regulated."
Not enough to suit me.

[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

32. I'll say it one last time

Then I will abandon this thread as a total and utter waste of time.

*Points to threads above*

There are people and companies licensed to manufacture machine guns. The idea of real AK's being sold to the Iraqi police didn't just pop up yesterday, it's been around for a while.

It's simple yet so hard for some to grasp.

Not enough to suit me

Then whine to the BATFE because their regulation of the NFA '34 isn't up to your expectations.

[MrBenchley]

33. You can spin till you're blue in the face...

It's still a dishonest deal with a really scummy bunch of white collar criminals. And yeah, I plan to push for more gun control.

[enfield collector]

31. David Koresh and his pals had AR15s converted to select

fire, not AK47s. it may seem like gun porn to you but there is a big difference between an AR15 and an AK47

[MrBenchley]

36. Too too funny...

"The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode:
22 M-16 Type Rifles
20 AK-47 Type Rifles
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
2 M-11/Nine
The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode. "

http://usgovinfo.about.com/blwacoguns.htm?once=true&

"it may seem like gun porn to you but there is a big difference between an AR15 and an AK47"
It is gun porn. So now that we found out you were wrong, tell us what the hell difference it makes what kind of gun this scumbag sold to the little tin god of "enthusiasts".

[enfield collector]

38. looks like they were all semi-auto that were sold., nothing illegal

in that provided they went thru the equivalent of NICS back then. it was the modifying them that koresh did that was illegal and I believe he paid the ultimate price for that crime. Koresh is not my hero.

[MrBenchley]

44. So in other words, you were wrong

and the guns that our "pro-gun democrats" keep insisting can;t be converted can be converted pretty easily...even by a loony like Koresh.

[MrSandman]

45. M-16 types are not...

the same as AR-15's. They are regulated by the NFA. I am unsure about semi-automatic M-16's. That is a new one.

The AR-15 can be converted, but not easily, it requires machining of the lower receiver.

[enfield collector]

51. yeah looks like it. time for me to come back with a vicious ad hom.

or maybe thats not my style. not that easy to convert a semi to a full auto though.

[MrBenchley]

54. Or you could just post some more irrelevant gun porn

"not that easy to convert a semi to a full auto"
Sure didn't seem to be much trouble for a half-crazed child molester and his cult...

[iverglas]

39. a little more about the "1999 controversy"

The link is dead, but google's cached version survives for now:

http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:uk4Gsrz12ycJ:www.miafla.com/101399a.html+kiesler+%22dade+county%22++police&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Miami-Dade County Mayor Alex Penelas has ordered that all excess county police weapons be reduced to scrap metal following a CBS News report that found -- despite good intentions -- that some officers' guns ended up in the hands of criminals.

The news report is a particular embarrassment for Miami-Dade, which has sued the gun industry because of the costs of local gun-related crime.

The network's three-month investigation discovered that four Miami-Dade Police weapons were connected to crimes in Chicago -- including one attempted-murder case where a maintenance worker was shot three times after being mistaken for a gang member.

... Last year, Miami-Dade County tried to stop the exact practice CBS found. Here's what happened, according to the report aired Monday and Tuesday nights:

The county hired Kiesler Police Supply of Indiana to buy and resell 1,200 guns to others in the law enforcement community. Kiesler, one of the nation's largest gun dealers, was the only company to respond to the county's bid.

CBS traced the weapons. Among the findings: 250 ended up at a farm supply store in Kentucky, and 40 went to Lou's Police Supply in Hialeah, which exported them to Costa Rica for resale to consumers.

In a memo written Friday, Penelas asked County Attorney Robert Ginsburg to terminate the company's contract and refer the case to the Miami-Dade state attorney's office, Florida attorney general, and the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

http://www.bedfordonline.com/news/archive/9910news.htm

Kiesler agreed to sell the guns only to law-enforcement officers or agencies. But, undercover reporters from CBS news recently bought two of the Miami weapons from a California dealer who claims to have obtained them from Kiesler. Penelas is threatening to sue Kiesler for breach of contract.

Of course, if law enforcement authorities didn't prosecute (I don't know), that means that no crime was committed. Of course.

OJ Simpson did *not* kill two people.

.

[MrSandman]

42. Why did the Dade County police ...

give the revolvers away. Did the Police think Kiesler was purchasing them to benefit the county?

[el_gato]

6. I thought you always wanted guns for Cops and no guns for civilians

Oh, and I guess you liked that slaughter of innocent people at Waco?

Of course, you probably bought into the whole smear campaign against the Branch Davidians.

[iverglas]

40. whew! -- "I thought ..." "I guess ..." ...

Where do you get these strange assorted "thoughts" and "guesses"???


I thought you always wanted guns for Cops and no guns for civilians

Foolish me. I thought maybe you could read; and, just occasionally, accurately report what you know. Well, perhaps my report of my thoughts is about as sincere as yours, eh?

Oh, and I guess you liked that slaughter of innocent people at Waco?

Can I play too? Lemme see now ... Oh, and I guess you liked it when Bush kept that villain Al Gore out of the white house?

Of course, you probably bought into the whole smear campaign against the Branch Davidians.

Of course, you probably bought into the whose smear campaign against Republican Floridians.

Whatever, eh? I think I'll go play with http://www.jabberwacky.com for a bit before dinner ...

... or maybe pine for the Fox News that I sadly cannot receive.

.

[slackmaster]

27. Thousands of assault weapons, machineguns, and magazines LEAVING the US

And still you get uptight about it.

I think someone has a case of the Mondays.

[MrBenchley]

30. Geeze, slack...

Ask me next how much I value the opinion of an "enthusiast" like you.

"slackmaster
38. It's the Big Lie strategy"
"slackmaster
58. Nice try but it's still based on a major LIE"
"slackmaster
65. If I may be so bold as to speak for the entire "RKBA crowd"
We aren't saying they are lying."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=20875&mesg_id=20875

[RoeBear]

41. It would be really nice if...

...they explained this better.

"Kiesler touched off a 1999 controversy in Miami when it was caught reselling old Dade County police revolvers that were used by street gangs in Chicago."

'Caught reselling' what does that mean? They took them in trade?

[mosin]

46. anti-gun rag

The NY Daily News is one of the worst anti-gun rags in the country, and that article is an excellent illustration. Other than the fine by the Massachusetts AG, none of the transactions in the article are even alleged to be criminal conduct by Kiesler's, but that doesn't stop the NYDN from slanting the facts and painting Kieser's as "infamous" for legally selling firearms and accessories.

As a customer, I can highly recommend Kieslers Online. Among other things, they have nice ammunition specials. And as long as I've bought ammunition from them, since 2000, they've required an adult signature upon delivery of ammunition.

[MrBenchley]

47. How tragic for "enthusiasts"

The newspapers are against them, John Kerry is against them, the Democrats are against them, the American Academy of Pediatricians is their sworn enemy, the NAACP is intolerant toward them, the courts are against them, the ACLU is against them, the AFL-CIO are against them, the PTA is against them, Haddasah is against them....almost everybody in the country ended up on the NRA hate list except a handful of racist right wing loonies.

You guys DO have Crisco John standing with you...and your welcome to him.

[mosin]

48. "enthusiasts"

The newspapers are against them, John Kerry is against them, the Democrats are against them, the American Academy of Pediatricians is their sworn enemy, the NAACP is intolerant toward them, the courts are against them, the ACLU is against them, the AFL-CIO are against them, the PTA is against them, Haddasah is against them....almost everybody in the country ended up on the NRA hate list except a handful of racist right wing loonies.

Amazing isn't it?

With all that opposition, we've still been consistently winning the battle since 1994. Case in point, at the start of 1994, there were 17 "right-to-carry" states. Today, there are 37. 20 states have passed "right-to-carry" laws. None has ever been repealed.

We're becoming a little bit freer every day.

And to think that the hated ban on evil-looking semi-automatic rifles marked the turning point.

[slackmaster]

49. We're going to need buckets and mops when the AW ban expires

Not for the blood flowing in the streets, rather to soak up all the tears shed by the gun grabbers.

It's going to be a great day.

[enfield collector]

53. LMFAO, good one slack! n/t

[MrBenchley]

50. And what victories too...

In Missouri, the voters rejected the idiotic idea...and got it rammed down their throats anyway.

[slackmaster]

52. Let us know when Missouri voters care enough about it

To vote in an anti-CCW legislature and repeal the law.

I won't hold my breath.

:evilgrin:

[-..__...]

55. Of course they put their own spin on the story.

The article is misleading and deceitful.

"Last October, the company was fined $2,500 by the Massachusetts attorney general after a sting operation snared Kiesler selling ammo to minors over the Internet".

It's highly unlikely that any online ammo dealers will ship their product without some sort of age verification or statement from the buyer... at least not if they want to stay in business for very long.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f6

(F6) Does a customer have to be a certain age to buy firearms or ammunition from a licensee?

Yes. Longguns and longgun ammunition may be sold only to persons 18 years of age or older. Sales of handguns and ammunition for handguns are limited to persons 21 years of age and older. Although some state and local ordinances have lower age requirements, dealers are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA. If state law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age, the dealer must observe the higher age requirement. <18 U. S. C. 922( b)( 1), 27 CFR 178.99( b)>

(F7) May a licensee sell interchangeable ammunition such as .22 cal. rimfire to a person less than 21 years old?

Yes, provided the buyer is 18 years of age or older, and the dealer is satisfied that it is for use in a rifle. If the ammunition is intended for use in a handgun, the 21 year old minimum age requirement is applicable. <18 U. S. C. 922( b)( 1), 27 CFR 178.99( b)>


None of the litigants named in the AGs press release were charged with "selling ammo to minors".

http://www.ago.state.ma.us/txt/ammunition.htm


The problem stems from the part of MA that states "No person shall sell ammunition in the commonwealth unless duly licensed". IOW, the ammo dealers were unaware of the idiotic changes to MA law; and even then it's questionable whether they broke any law at all.

http://goal.org/Alerts/mailorder.htm

What's really at issue here is MAs draconian and disgraceful gun laws that no one fully understands... including the AGs offce.

AG Reilly is a real piece of work (I vividly remember his grandstanding during the Louise Woodward trial).

Then again, the bug-eyed hatefulness and spite directed at MA gunowners by the AGs office is nothing new.

Short read
http://goal.org/fraud/release.htm

Full story (long)
http://goal.org/fraud/report.htm

[MrBenchley]

56. Too TOO funny....

"It's highly unlikely that any online ammo dealers will ship their product without some sort of age verification or statement from the buyer... "
What a drag for that theory that Kiesler's and three other firms got caught doing just that in Massachusetts. One wonders how much ammo and what else they might have sold to minors in other states...

"What's really at issue here is MAs draconian and disgraceful gun laws that no one fully understands."
From your own source: "State law requires dealers be licensed to sell ammunition and prohibits the sale of ammunition to minors or those without a permit. None of the companies who shipped ammunition to Massachusetts held the proper state license nor did they take the required steps to verify that the purchaser was authorized to buy ammunition under Massachusetts law."
<sarcasm>Jeebus, they're just one step away from concentration camps, aren't they? And who could possibly understand that you have to have a license from the state and you can't sell to kids without some kind of advanced degree...like a high school diploma or something? <sarcasm>

[-..__...]

57. There's nothing funny about an out of control AG with a personal vendetta.

"What a drag for that theory that Kiesler's and three other firms got caught doing just that in Massachusetts. One wonders how much ammo and what else they might have sold to minors in other states..."

What part didn't you understand? Here, let me simplify it for you:

A) The Daily News article stated that "...snared Kiesler selling ammo to minors over the Internet".

B) None of the vendors were charged with "selling ammo to minors".

That would be an entirely different charge which would violate Federal as well as most states laws (including MA).

Even in your wild imagination, don't you think that given the MA AGs office overly aggressive position on firearms, that Kieslers would have been charged with "selling ammo to minors" if that's indeed what actually took place?

C) The AGs press release didn't say "failed to verify age"; it said
"held the proper state license nor did they take the required steps to verify that the purchaser was authorized to buy ammunition under Massachusetts law". Big difference.

The proper "state license" in this case means a MA FID card or LTC; which is needed in MA to purchase ammunition and reloading components (that includes empty brass casings).

This is a separate requirement in MA in addition to age verification that all online ammo dealers ask for regardless of the state in which the buyer lives.

At worst, Kiesler's and the other vendors were unaware of the MA license requirement for both selling and purchasing ammo. It can be argued that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but to make it appear that Kieslers and others willfully and knowingly broke the law (selling to minors no less), is even more ignorant... and plain dishonest.


"One wonders how much ammo and what else they might have sold to minors in other states..."

Doesn't seem to be a problem in those other states as the vendors who were charged are still selling ammo there... just not MA.



From your own source: "State law requires dealers be licensed to sell ammunition and prohibits the sale of ammunition to minors or those without a permit.


That begs another question: Where did (does) the point of sales take place? Was it in MA? Or in the state where the vendor has their business set up?
The situation is not that all dissimilar to any online sales whenever the Internet sales tax is discussed.

" None of the companies who shipped ammunition to Massachusetts held the proper state license nor did they take the required steps to verify that the purchaser was authorized to buy ammunition under Massachusetts law."

Lets see...

In MA (and I assume most states), a person needs a license to sell:

Alcohol.
Cigarettes.
Food items (victualer license).

Yet, any of these items can be purchased online... and in the case of cigarettes and alcohol, age verification is required.

To the best of my knowledge, no one (or the MA AG), is going after them
because they don't have the proper license to conduct business in MA.

Whenever state officials or agencies do go after online vendors of cigarettes and alcohol, it's related to taxes and not whether or not the
vendor has a license to conduct business in that state.


<sarcasm>Jeebus, they're just one step away from concentration camps, aren't they? And who could possibly understand that you have to have a license from the state and you can't sell to kids without some kind of advanced degree...like a high school diploma or something? <sarcasm>

Where's the proof that any of them sold ammo to minors? Just for the hell of it, lets speculate that they did. Was it because they never asked for any age verification or did the AGS sting operation involve having minors lie about their age?

[MrSandman]

58. Next, they won't let them...

Pump gasoline without a license.

[FeebMaster]

59. Funny you should mention that,

the town next to the one I live in doesn't allow self-service gas stations.

[MrSandman]

60. Maybe they consider them to be ...

No service gas stations.

[FeebMaster]

61. I'm surprised they stay in business at all.

Gas is even more expensive there than everywhere else what with the having to pay some kid to stand out in the rain to pump gas.

[MrSandman]

62. There is only one...

Station anywhere near here that even offers full service. FWIW, it is one of the real service stations: Tires, oil changes, light mechanical work, two garage bays, no beer cooler.