House sends bill banning gun owner lists to Bush

[JayS]

House sends bill banning gun owner lists to Bush
By Times Staff and Wire Reports
Published April 2, 2004
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/04/02/State/Affordable_housing_fu.shtml



Police and government agencies could no longer keep comprehensive lists of people who own firearms, under a bill the House passed 86-32.

The bill (HB 155), pushed by the National Rifle Association, now heads to Gov. Jeb Bush's desk. It comes with stiff penalties - including fines of up to $5-million if a court determines a government agency knew one of its employees was collecting such a list.

The bill doesn't apply to lists created as part of a criminal investigation, and despite the prohibition, existing lists cannot be suppressed if they could be used against a suspect in court.

*SNIP*

"Why is it that we want to get rid of this list?" asked Rep. Arthenia Joyner, D-Tampa. "Who is it who has been harmed by this list? ... Those of us who own firearms should not be afraid to let others know about it."

*SNIP*

[OpSomBlood]

1. We discussed this earlier.

Some people here feel that keeping lists of law-abiding gun owners will somehow help to solve crimes. It doesn't seem to make much sense because "law-abiding" people don't tend to be involved in many crimes.

By definition.

[will89]

2. Yea

This make it easier to confiscate weapons.
Will

[RC]

3. Guns have serial numbers on them

These number need to be tied back to the owner. Cars have VIN. Those are tied back to the owner. What is the differance?

[RC]

4. Still waiting.

[OpSomBlood]

5. I oppose gun registration because it makes confiscation too easy.

Registration has historically been the first step to total gun confiscation.

[Township75]

13. Because it would not be enough...

a gun registration is all about getting criminals, saving lives, and protecting the children, right?

So why not just have a fingerprint database of everyone in the country? A gun database will not help in murders commited with knives or weedwackers. But a fingerprint database may.

One can easily scratch off any serial # on a gun, but try doing that to your fingerprints...you may be able to wipe them off, but you have to get every single one.

So why aren't gun database advocates advocating a more useful fingerprint database.

[OpSomBlood]

14. When the gun database fails, they will.

It's all about gradual escalation.

A gun grabber's utopia is one where nobody is armed except the government and the criminals. And at that point, there won't be much of a difference.

[Township75]

15. I'm not so sure...

my belief is that anti gunners don't mind attacking and eroding rights that they never intend on using, for example, owning a gun.

But they would be against a fingerprint database, because they do value their privacy....even if eroding it would save just one life, to them it's just not worth it (how ironic...NOT!).

[ScubaJeep]

6. Car registration is irrelevant

Many gun control activists cite the registration of motor vehicles as a justification for the registration of firearms, but do not give concrete examples why this is necessary. This is why I often wonder if gun control is more about control, and less about public safety. Did you know that cars and trucks which are not operated on public property are not required to be licensed and/or registered. This comparison of cars and guns in this respect is akin to comparing apples and oranges.

The reason why the NRA and many others are so concerned about gun owner lists is that such lists have historically been used solely to take rights away from a citizenry. While most gun owners would agree that some sort of gun registration is good, there is much reason to have a healthy fear of it.

I am a gun owner, and avid shooter. In my employment as well as in my hobbies I have probably gone through more background checks and fingerprinting than most people on here. I am scared of any government list of gun owners. I am scared not just by the potential for the government to abuse such lists, but the potential for others to do the same. I am scared of newspaper editors who have political agendas, and using the powers of FOIA to obtain said government lists, them publishing them *.

The fear of being on a "government" list is not limited solely to gun ownership. How would I like to be on a NSA list of people who use PGP? I would not. How would I like to be on a FBI list of people who use a rebreather? I would not. How would I like to be on an EPA list of people who change their own oil? I would not.

It is necessary to justify keeping such a list in terms much grander than "it might help". It is necessary to convince the people you are listing that the system will not abuse this new information. This is difficult because the people fighting hardest for said list, are the same people fighting hard to outlaw gun ownership.


* This is not paranoia. The Ohio Newspaper Association is encouraging it's members to publish every name of citizens who choose to obtain a concealed handgun license. They say it is in the "public interest."

p.s. FOIA comes up as a misspelled word on a liberal forum? The heck? :P

[MrBenchley]

7. "do not give concrete examples why this is necessary"

That all you want? 80,000-115,000 Americans get shot every year.

[OpSomBlood]

8. 3 million Americans are injured in car accidents every year.

Registration doesn't seem to make much of a difference when it comes to criminals and irresponsible people.

[MrBenchley]

9. And cars are used much more often than guns

and are registered...

"criminals and irresponsible people"
Gee, those are the most frequent users of guns.

[OpSomBlood]

11. Actually, millions of people frequently use guns without death or injury.

So in reality, the "most frequent" users of guns are the safest and most responsible.

[Fescue4u]

17. I use my gun every day.

As do the majority of gun owners.

And no, gun "using" does not equal shooting it.

Anytime its in my possession its being "used".

[Paladin]

18. So By Your Definition......

....a car doesn't have to be driven to be "used"; just sitting in a garage constitutes car "use", since it's in your possession.

In which case, the ratio for car-to-gun "use" time in this country goes from about 1,000,000-to-1 to about 10,000,000-to-1.

Where I come from, this is called shooting yourself in the foot. Happens all the time, when you RKBA types bring cars into your arguments......

[OpSomBlood]

19. Some real statistics to ponder.

In 1997, there were 207 million registered automobiles in the U.S. This, coincidentally, is the same approximate total number of guns in the U.S.

Each year, there are 4 million car accidents resulting in 3 million injuries and about 40,000 deaths.

Annualy there are about 115,000 gunshot injuries and 30,000 deaths (57% of which are suicides and 5% accidental).

[Paladin]

20. So What?

The amount of time spent in cars in this country, potentially in harm's way, has to dwarf the amount of time devoted to active gun usage; I bet it's a million to one. Of course there are going to be more car accidents. Number of cars vs. number of guns? Puh-leese.

And those numbers you're so proud of (115,000 gunshot injuries per year, 30,000 deaths) are an absolute abomination, compared to other nations with pretenses towards civility.....

[ScubaJeep]

10. I'm sorry

Perhaps you could reveal where you obtained those numbers?

And what do those numbers include? Do they include drug dealers who shoot each other? Do they include instances where law enforcement officers use deadly force against a suspect? Do they include hunting accidents?

You (you as in those who want gun registration) need to find one reason why gun registration prevents gun crime. It is not good enough to cite horrid statistics or make an attempt to turn this into an emotional issue.

But perhaps you cannot find one. Which would hardly speak negatively on you, because I do not believe there are any. Just like there is no reason why we expect motor vehicle registration to prevent accidents. Motor vehicle registration is a revenue stream which is often used to improve roads.

What? Gun registration in order to build public shooting facilities? You may be onto something.

[OpSomBlood]

12. Suicides make up 55% of gun deaths.

Blame the gun.

[MrBenchley]

16. Jeepers

the upper and lower ranges were both obtained from long-time "enthusiasts" here...

"You (you as in those who want gun registration) need to find one reason why gun registration prevents gun crime."
It AIDS law enforcement and helps them apprehend criminals. If you don't see that as a perfectly good reason, then tough titty.

By the way, no law PREVENTS crime...laws against bank robbery don't prevent bank robbeery. Funny that you never hear bankers calling for the repeal of THOSE laws, isn't it?

By the way, how about gun registration revenue to pay for the enormous cost to the public of gunshot Americans every year? Or the cost of deploying SWAT teams, shutting down businesses and schools, etc.

[mbnd45]

21. The difference is

that with a database with names of gun owners and which guns they own, you could be "reverse" looked up, meaning authorities could just type your name in a computer and find out what you have. Or they could type in a caliber and get a list of all owners of guns in that caliber in a given radius. In this situation, people could be wrongly accused of crimes simply by owning a certain type or caliber of firearm. Think of the Malvo shootings. Everybody within a 30 mile radius of D.C. who owned a .223 caliber firearm could have been detained by authorities and questioned with no probable cause except for ownership of a particular type or caliber firearm. Without the database, the gun would have to be "in hand" at which point the owner (or the last LEGAL owner) could be traced through the manufacturer, then to the distributer, then to the FFL (gun store) that sold the gun.
You might ask, "Whats wrong with keeping a list so we can detain and question everybody who owns a gun that matches or resembles a gun used in a crime?" Because people don't want to be scrutinized and treated like criminals simply because they choose to own guns, just like muslims don't want to be harassed by government agents simply because they choose to be muslim.