Church Easter egg hunt turns up two loaded handguns on school yard

[Lefty48197]

http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040410232609990002

"A group of children hunting for Easter eggs Saturday during a church event found two loaded handguns outside an elementary school...
...one of the guns discharged when it was dropped...
...one of the handguns had a bullet in the chamber, and the other handgun's clip had a bullet in it"

NRA response: "What a bunch of idiots these people are. It's a MAGAZINE not a CLIP! Won't you morans ever wise up? It's no wonder we can't have an intelligent conversation with you people"

[FeebMaster]

1. Weah NRA.

Did the story even mention the NRA or did you just feel like talking about them? I'm not an AOL member so I can't read the story.

[Lefty48197]

2. Please pardon me

but everytime somebody wants to discuss a gun related issue, one of the gun nuts has to go off on some tangent regarding the use of terminology etc. etc. etc. etc. It's amazing the lengths they go to to avoid discussing the subject. My "shot" at the NRA was an attempt to prevent the use of that diversionary tactic.

[Redneck Socialist]

3. Accuracy and correct terminology are important

Especially since much of the gun debate is based upon incorrect and at times deliberately misleading terminology.

I would think that the press would strive to get the facts and terminology straight in the interest of clarity if for no other reason.

I don't have AOL so I can't read the article in question.

[CO Liberal]

4. Accuracy & Terminology Have No Bearing Here

Two loaded guns were found in a schoolyard. THAT'S the important fact, and should serve as the basis for discussion of this story.

[FeebMaster]

5. Well I can't read the article,

so I don't know the details. What would you do to stop things like this from happening?

[CO Liberal]

6. Find Out Whose Guns They Are

And then throw the book at them. For any and all laws they may have violated.

And get their pictures on the front page of every paper in the area, and every TV news program.

Perhaps THAT will convince pro-gunners to take better care of their guns.

[FeebMaster]

8. Yes, I'm sure the people who left the guns

there were hardcore gun rights enthusiasts.

If you want a really intellectual conversation on this incident, I suggest the thread in LBN. There is a level of discourse going on there that you rarely find down here in the cesspool of DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x480288

[Pert_UK]

14. I take your point, but........

it is possible that the guns were originally purchased legally. They might not have been, they could have been illegally imported and sold on by criminals, or stolen from the factory.

However, if it turned out that these guns had originally been sold legally, wouldn't it be nice to be able to trace the official owner and find out how his/her guns have ended up lying around loaded in school grounds?

In this instance, a case of hideous recklessness has occurred that could easily have led to the death of a child, and as far as I can tell there's little chance of tracking back to someone who should be responsible for the guns - even if they had them stolen, it would be nice to find out when/where...

P.

[MrBenchley]

15. For all we know

this gun could have been purchased legally by someone who sells guns to criminals...

I see no reasonable objection to why a system should not be in place to trace these guns back to the person who bought them...

[RoeBear]

25. Wait a minute!

They can trace the gun back to who originally bought the gun.
And if the ATF traces more than one gun used in crime to the same person they should throw the book at him.

[natasha1]

53. Here is the reasonable objection...

I see no reasonable objection to why a system should not be in place to trace these guns back to the person who bought them...

Such a system would require registration of firearms. I believe that registration is a precursor to confiscation. I do not believe that the benefits of a firearms registration system outweigh the potential for misuse of such a system. I don't trust the government with that data. This is why I will never register any of my firearms.

Nat

[MrBenchley]

So I still haven't heard a reasonable objection

Just the usual mix of RKBA paranoia and hysteria...

[natasha1]

55. I consider it completely reasonable

To distrust one's government. Especially our current one.

Nat

[Pert_UK]

59. But if I may be so bold.....

Almost any law can be misused or misapplied.

Why not say:

- "Legally held guns can be misused, therefore let's ban them."

That holds equally as much weight as:

- "A law to track gun ownership could be misused and lead to confiscation of firearms. Therefore we shouldn't do it."

Or:

- "CCTV cameras in a bank might be used to look down women's shirts, therefore they shouldn't be allowed."

Tracking gun ownership enables confiscation in the same way as tracking car ownership enables police to issue speeding fines. OK, it also enables the police to, for example, only fine black people or women under 30 for speeding, but they're NOT ALLOWED to do that, and if they did they'd be punished.

Basically, what you're saying is that not only are you pro-RKBA (which is fine and dandy IMHO), you are also against ANY law (no matter what its intention) which would (as a side effect) enable the government to confiscate weapons if they chose to misuse that law.

[FeebMaster]

16. Sure it's possible.

Maybe they were purchased legally or maybe they were smuggled into the country or whatever. But even if they were sold legally at some point, they could have gone through a dozen hands since then. Or been stolen and resold along the way.

If you put a bar code on every gun so the police could instantly find out where it was sold and to who would it really change anything? The gun could still have been legally sold to another private individual or it could have been stolen.

If you regulated/registered private sales you could rule out the legal changing of hands, but the gun could still have been stolen or sold illegally. In this case, sure you could maybe prove that the seller violated federal firearms law when he sold the gun, but you're still never going to find out who left the guns at the school.

Who knows maybe you'll get lucky and the original owner is the one who threw his gun into a school yard for some reason. How are you going to prove it without witnesses or something besides purchase records? You owned the gun, it ended up in the school, you must have thrown it there? Is that going to fly in any court?

[iverglas]

18. listen carefully now

Let's pretend that people require permits to possess firearms, and must register *all* firearms transfers.

But even if they were sold legally at some point, they could have gone through a dozen hands since then.

Yes -- and if a legal owner, anywhere in that chain, sold it without the purchaser having a permit to possess, and without the transfer being recorded, then the legal owner would have committed a crime.

Or been stolen and resold along the way.

Yes -- and the legal owner would have been required to (a) store the firearm safely and securely, and (b) report the theft ("theft") to the police; failing to do either would have been a crime.

If you regulated/registered private sales you could rule out the legal changing of hands, but the gun could still have been stolen or sold illegally.

Yes -- and the last person to have legal possession of the firearm, as determined by the last registration of it, would have committed a crime if it had been transferred without registration, or the theft ("theft") not reported.

In this case, sure you could maybe prove that the seller violated federal firearms law when he sold the gun, but you're still never going to find out who left the guns at the school.

Nope -- but you could prosecute the last legal owner of the firearm, for an illegal sale (if the necessary information were available) or failure to report the theft.


All of that is what laws are for, eh? To deter people from doing certain things, for fear of prosecution and punishment.

When people can just do those things with impunity, because (as you so usefully point out) nobody is ever going to know, they might just be at least a little bit less likely to happen.

If someone thinking of illegally selling his/her firearm, or storing his/her firearm unsafely/insecurely, knew that when it turned up in a schoolyard during an easter egg hunt ... or in a garbage can after a bank robbery in which people were killed ... etc. ... it would be traced back to him/her, s/he might just think twice before taking the money.

Who knows maybe you'll get lucky and the original owner is the one who threw his gun into a school yard for some reason. How are you going to prove it without witnesses or something besides purchase records? You owned the gun, it ended up in the school, you must have thrown it there? Is that going to fly in any court?

No ... but not everything in life is just a great big mystery, and amazingly enough the police do know useful things sometimes, and sometimes find people willing to tell them useful things. Undoubtedly not every owner of a found handgun would end up convicted of something, but undoubtedly some of them would.

Especially if the handgun were actually found in the possession of someone and not just lying around a schoolyard, as is, amazingly enough, sometimes the case. That someone might just be very eager to report how s/he came to be in possession of it, for a little consideration in his/her own case. Honour among thieves isn't always all it's cracked up to be.

.

[demsrule4life]

20. Another thing to consider is

since this is Moore's hometown he could of planted them so he could make another "documentary".

[iverglas]

21. oh deer me yes

I admit, I neglected that possibility. He could indeed of dun it.

.

[demsrule4life]

23. Dear not Deer

:)

[iverglas]

26. duh not doh?

Should HAVE, not should OF.

That might have been my point.

(Not to mention DONE, not DUN. And here I tried to make it OBVIOUS ...)

.

[demsrule4life]

33. They do go down easier as the night goes on

[Pert_UK]

54. What iverglas said, only briefer....

OK, you might not necessarily find that the last registered legal owner you trace the guns to was indeed the person who left the guns in the schoolyard. In fact, the chances are that he/she won't be. However, if you could trace the gun back to the last legal owner, you could ask him/her what he/she did with the gun, and why he/she thinks it might have ended up in a schoolyard. That, at least, is a start.

If you can only ever trace guns back to their initial legal purchaser, then all he/she has to say is, "I sold it legally to someone, I can't remember who and I'm not required to keep records" and the police are at a dead end.

Whave iverglas says is that at the moment there is virtually no chance of finding out where in the chain of "legal" gun-owners somebody broke the law or a legal gun went missing without being reported. This means that there is virtually no chance of prosecuting breaches of the law, and virtually no deterrant against handling firearms irresponsibly.

For example, if you knew that speeding was illegal but that the police had virtually no way to prove that people were speeding, then I suspect that the population would be less likely to obey speed restrictions.

[RoeBear]

56. But if the police lead a gun...

...used in crime to the same person twice they have a good case for gun running.

[Columbia]

57. How would you track it anyway?

Serial numbers are easily filed off and that is the first thing a criminal would do if s/he were to use it and/or dispose of it in a crime. It would be entirely a waste of money and resources that can be much better spent elsewhere.

[Pert_UK]

58. So what you're saying is......

there's no point in doing anything ever to even try to establish who might have been the last legal owner of a gun?

I genuinely don't believe that the majority of illegally-held weapons have had the serial numbers removed - do you have any evidence for this?

If somebody steals a gun or purchases it illegally, why do they care whether the gun can be traced back to its original owner? (Not being facetious, I genuinely would like to know).

[Columbia]

61. Sort of

"I genuinely don't believe that the majority of illegally-held weapons have had the serial numbers removed - do you have any evidence for this?"

Who knows what exact percentage this is. Criminals aren't exactly volunteering to tally their weapons.

"If somebody steals a gun or purchases it illegally, why do they care whether the gun can be traced back to its original owner?"

They may not care, but in situations like this, a trace back to the original owner would end there. In the case that the owner was involved in the process, he would have certainly ensured that it would not be able to traced back to him.

[Pert_UK]

62. A trace to the original owner WOULDN'T end there...

"Excuse me sir, you are the first registered owner of a Colt .45 automatic and it's just turned up being used in a bank robbery. Can you tell me when and how it left your possession?"

"I sold it to ..........."

and then the cop has somewhere to go to trace it.

Even better if the gun can be tracked throughout its legal life, from A to B to C to D to a crime.

Cops go back to D and D has to explain why his gun has been used in a crime. If it was stolen, why he didn't report it, if he sold it then why he didn't fill in the forms etc.

This system aids in the capture of criminals and helps identify irresponsible gun owners.

[Columbia]

63. Sure it would

The point is that if there is any situation that a gun being used in a criminal fashion can be reasonably traced back to the perpetrator, that person would file off the serial number.

If it was stolen, yes, there would be no need to file it off, but the trail would end at the owner because he would not know who stole it.

Whether the owner reported the theft or not has no bearing on the trail ending, either way it does. If he is involved in illegal gun traffiking, then he would undoubtedly make sure that the guns are not able to be traced back to him, again by filing off the serial numbers.

[TX-RAT]

64. Hard to remove numbers

If the serial numbers were roll stamped they cannot be removed by filing or grinding. Roll stamping distorts the metal well below surface and can be recovered with simple tests.

[Columbia]

66. Not all are roll stamped

And how many police departments actually have the forensics lab or access to a lab capable of this degree of investigation?

[MrBenchley]

67. You mean to tell us

you don't think police forces cooperate?

[Columbia]

68. No

They don't have the resources to undergo extensive forensics for every case.

[MrBenchley]

70. Gee, if only they could turn to the FBI or State Police for help

Oh, that's right...they can.

[Columbia]

65. dupe

del

[natasha1]

52. Yes, it would...

However, if it turned out that these guns had originally been sold legally, wouldn't it be nice to be able to trace the official owner and find out how his/her guns have ended up lying around loaded in school grounds?

Yes, it would be very nice to be able to trace the guns in such situations.

Unfortunately, the only way to be able to conduct such traces it to have a registry of firearms. And I believe, as many others do, that the risk of registries outweighs the benefits. I believe that registration is a precursor to confiscation. I will never register my firearms.

Nat

[Pert_UK]

60. Your logic is appalling...

technically, I believe that you're making the fallacy of assuming the antecedant, but who cares about that?

You're basically saying:

You need a registry to be able to confiscate guns. Therefore, if you have a registry guns will be confiscated.

That's utterly ridiculous. I certainly DON'T advocate widespread gun confiscation, but it would be nice to be able to take guns from people who really shouldn't have them, or conversely to set alarm bells ringing. Does it not seem reasonable for local police to know that, for example, Mr Jones owns 50 pistols and 100,000 rounds of ammunition if they're going round to serve an arrest warrant?

[natasha1]

69. Of course...

You're basically saying:

You need a registry to be able to confiscate guns. Therefore, if you have a registry guns will be confiscated.

Obviously, having a registry does not gaurantee confiscation. But it sure as hell is an enabler when a government decides confiscation is in order.

You can't deny that a government that sets out to confiscate firearms will have a much easier job if it has a registry to serve as a handy shopping list.

Nat

[Pert_UK]

71. Of course I don't deny that......

but your logic is still backwards.

If I want to travel to Scotland, I'd have a much easier job if I go to the main station in Birmingham (UK). However, just because I set off for the main station in Birmingham, it doesn't mean I'm going to Scotland - I could equally well be going to London.

Your position is utterly immoral - basically you'd reject any law, no matter what its intentions or the likely benefits, if it made the wholesale confiscation of firearms possible.

Not only are you asserting "the right to keep and bear arms", you are asserting "the right to avoid any possible law that might enable the government to confiscate firearms."

Well bad luck - even if I grant you the first right, the 2nd doesn't follow. You have the right to free speech, but that doesn't mean that the government can't arrest you for threatening violence.

[MrBenchley]

72. And let's not forget

that the first right is an utter fraud perpetrated by the gun industry.

[CO Liberal]

7. Here's Another Link

From the thread they're discussing this story in over on the LBN board.

* * * * *

April 11, 2004 | FLINT, Mich. (AP) --

A group of children hunting for Easter eggs Saturday during a church event found two loaded handguns outside an elementary school.

Flint police said officers were called to the scene and also recovered a BB gun and a broken toy gun on the grounds of Gundry Elementary School. No one was injured, Sgt. Michael Coote said.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/wire/2004/04/11/egg_hunt/index_np.html

[MrBenchley]

13. Appalling...

"One of the guns discharged when it was dropped, according to a police report, but it was unclear who dropped it. "

[Wickerman]

35. If gun education were only mandatory in our low performing schools

even the littlest egg scrounger would've known how to handle the discarded weapon and disaster would've been averted.

note - low performing denotes the US public education system in general, not that we should only have gun education in the low performing schools.

Wouldn't it be cool if we were to mandate weapon education into the so slack schedule that our kids experience daily? Between No Child Left Behind test preparation and mandatory bible memorization if we only eliminated, say, Science, we might be able to squeeze in weapon handling 101.

[RoeBear]

9. I'm assuming some fun loving NRA gun-nut...

...painted some guns in pastel colors to leave for the kiddies.

[Endangered Specie]

10. I hope this wasnt Tony's backyard (Sopranos)...

"Did (other) kids ever find fifty thousand dollars in Krugerrands and a .45 automatic while they were hunting for Easter eggs?" - Meadow

[Bill Chase]

11. "Church Easter egg hunt turns up two loaded handguns on school yard"

what the fed gov should be doing is allowing our teachers to carry pistols while they are in school, at least then I would feel better that my child would not have to worry about another columbine.

[MrBenchley]

12. Hey, it doesn't say what kind of handguns...

How is the RKBA crowd supposed to put pictures of the handguns and spank their cranks over them in the thread with this kind of bad reporting?

It's the big lie strategy, as any "enthusiast" will tell us over and over and over and over and over.

[RoeBear]

17. Let's assume it was...

...a child that dropped the gun that discharged.

What would you suggest to parents who want to teach their children about the dangers of touching guns?

[MrSandman]

19. You sound like Eddie Eagle...

He has good advice.

[iverglas]

22. goodness

What would you suggest to parents who want to teach
their children about the dangers of touching guns?

Has the commandment "thou shalt not touch, let alone pick up, let alone aim or fire or drop, any firearm that thou findest lying around on the ground" really been copyrighted by Moses Mr. Heston??

It seems I am to assume that Eddie Eagle and his boys were the first ones to have this particular brilliant idea, and/or that it could never have been, and could never be, conveyed to children without their help ...

.

[RoeBear]

24. They're the only ones to put the message on a...

...handy dandy video tape. AFAIK


Stop, don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult.

I believe the evidence that I've seen (on ABC's 20/20) that it's not 100% effective, but tell me what else is out there?

[iverglas]

27. try word of mouth

I ask again. Are you seriously suggesting that no one has ever thought of, and no one has ever tried, saying to kids "don't touch a gun you find lying around", unless s/he has been properly trained for that purpose by the NRA?

Who in this world actually needs a handy dandy video tape either to assimilate or to convey that message??

.

[CO Liberal]

29. In a Word, NOBODY

Who in this world actually needs a handy dandy video tape either to assimilate or to convey that message??

The Eddie Eagle program has been proven useless. That's why he's referred to as the "Foul Fowl".

[RoeBear]

30. By you...

...and I don't care who passes the message out. Are the Brady's doing it? No! Is the American's for Gun Safety doing it? No!

Until someone else comes out with a tape that is geared for children you're stuck with it.

Or do you believe that it's better to ignore the situation and just hope for the best?

[RoeBear]

31. The head in the sand...

...method? Instead of doing something pro-active like have kids watch a video that's entire message is "Stop, don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult" you prefer for word of mouth to get around to telling children the message.

Do you have a problem with the message or just the messenger?

[iverglas]

38. d'ya think?

... you prefer for word of mouth to get around to telling children the message.

If only you could point to where I SAID that I preferred any such thing.

How ever did people teach children things BEFORE someone invented handy dandy video tapes??

Do you suppose that maybe it was done BY WORD OF MOUTH?

.

[MrBenchley]

39. Yeah, but that doesn't get the gun lobby taxpayer money

the way Eddie Eagle's crap does...

Meanwhile, koresh forbid anything be done that might ever hold an adult responsible for leaving a gun around wherea kid can find it.

[RoeBear]

40. If only you could...

...point to where I SAID that I preferred any such thing.

It's still perfectly sensible to prosecute the person responsible for leaving the guns in the park.

[MrBenchley]

41. Gee, roebear...

So I guess all these posts where you're pimping for Eddie Eagle in the public schools aren't you pimping for Eddie Eagle in the public schools?



"It's still perfectly sensible to prosecute the person responsible for leaving the guns in the park."
Holy Koresh forbid, though, we might ever license guns and register gun owners so that we could find out who that is.

[RoeBear]

42. Awfully progressive of you to call me a pimp...

...I would complain but I doubt it would do any good.

Kids need to be taught not to touch guns that they find. Who else is doing ANYTHING about that other than Eddie Eagle?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RoeBear]

44. I guess we should change our...

..educational system, since you can't " tell kids what to do".

Any other racist insults you would like to hurl at me?

[MrBenchley]

46. Gee, roe, you're the one sticking up for Ted Nugent and his scummy band

Now go sulk about this idiotic program to some "enthusiast" who'll also pretend it's not horseshit.

[RoeBear]

48. Prove it!

When did I ever stick up for Ted Nugent? The only thing I claim is that the Eddie Eagle video is better than your method.
Which as far as I can tell is nothing.

[MrBenchley]

49. Too TOO funny...

And who is that peddling this Eddie Eagle bullshit and trying to pretend it deserves a place in the public schools? Why it's the NRA, headed by Ted Nugent.

But hey, I wouldn't associate with such scum either....

[RoeBear]

50. So you proved nothing...

...just what I expected.

[MrBenchley]

51. Gee, roe...

I proved that it's hilarious to see you run away from your creepy playmates when they're pointed out.

I proved that its hilarious to see you put up post after post pimping for Ted Nugent and the NRA, only to demand proof that you are pimping for Ted Nugent and the NRA when it is pointed out that you are pimping for Ted Nugent and the NRA.

[MrSandman]

36. I believe I learned it before the Eddie Eagle program...

Before the war on drugs, it was law enforcement community relations. A pre-DARE, if you will.

[MrBenchley]

37. I'd suggest you pimp for Eddie Eagle off somebody else's post...

[Wickerman]

28. Wow - and everyone thought my Church to be nazis for not wanting

a sign up. What could possibly go wrong when a gun is a around? What are the odds that a dropped gun would discharge? Minuscule. You are certainly safer if you have a concealed gun (or two!) handy when someone tries to shoot up your peaceful Sunday worship services.

I'm pleased to report that our Easter egg hunt with off without a hitch this year, even WITH the Guns Banned sign in prominent display.

[RoeBear]

32. And it was the sign that made the difference...

...right, sure.

[Wickerman]

34. Read carefully, in spite of, Mr. Bear

Aw come on, you were one of the most concerned that my church wouldn't accept you because we wouldn't accept your gun. We wouldn't turn you away from the parking lot where you were then so concerned that you might have to leave your weapon - you could've had it on the grounds if you really felt you needed it with all those cute little kids runnign around in their lovely pastels and lace.

Obviously the event was held outdoors (as is your typical Easter Egg hunt) so the sign had no effect. Next year, though, I think I'll petition the board, following sage advice I've read elsewhere on this board, to arm all the Sunday School teachers. Ya never know when mayhem might just break out and ya might need to have a gun battle right there on Main Street, Sunday AM, Easter Bunnies and chocolate eggs be damned.

[RoeBear]

45. I wouldn't join a church...

...that would have me as a member. :P

[Wickerman]

47. Funny, that is what I told my wife when I talked about joining

might be on to something there!