Sounds like the black market in arms is going...

[Cthulu_2004]

"A pair of grenade launchers are missing from an Army supply depot in Queens, and the NYPD is helping investigate their disappearance, sources said yesterday.

The metal tubes, which are fastened to M-16 rifles and can propel a grenade 400 yards, were reported missing Thursday by an Army sergeant who walked into the 107th Precinct stationhouse in Queens."

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/110053p-99321c.html

People who want to get guns illegally will find a way.

[CO Liberal]

1. As Long As There Is a Supply And Someone Willing to Sell

Full registration might help eliminate this.

[Township75]

2. The Army should register their grenade launchers?

?

[CO Liberal]

10. As a Minimum, They Should Keep Them More Secure

Don't ya think???

[Township75]

15. I think you are running from your original post.

don't ya think???

[Cthulu_2004]

34. How can they keep them more secure?

they're stored in a fortified building, designed to withstand a reasonably close hit from a nuclear bomb. They're kept under lock and key, and access is strictly controlled.

How many watchers would you have standing over the guards?

Do we really want to have some kind of Uber-KGB watching the military?

[entropy]

3. Now that is funny

M203 launchers are NFA devices, and are among the most regulated, registered weapons in the US.

[BullDozer]

4. :: sigh ::

There damn well is full registration of every citizen owned M-230 grenade launcher. They are classified as destructive devices and as such have been covered under law since the 1934 National Firearms Act (well before the invention of the M-203)
http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/nfa.htm

"(f) Destructive device. -- The term "destructive device" means (1) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas (A) bomb, (B) grenade, (C) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces, (D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce, (E) mine, or (F) similar device; (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device" shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes."

As an aside most types of rounds fired from the M-203 (or any other 40mm grenade launcher) are also classified as destructive devices and require the same paperwork, background check, local law enforcement sign offs, and $200 tax on every single round as the launcher itself would.

[Cthulu_2004]

5. CO...

Have you really thought this through? Please keep in mind, these were weapons owned by the GOVERNMENT...and were, of course, FULLY registered. Hell, these were kept under lock and key at a government arsenal. Needless to say, there are very strong penalties in place to prevent people from stealing this type of government property.

With this being the case, how exactly would registering privately owned weapons have helped to eliminate theft like this? As you say, as long as there is a supply and someone willing to sell these, coupled with a demand for stuff like this, registration is USELESS. Criminals will simply evade the law.

[CO Liberal]

11. Not If You Stiffen The Penalties for the SELLER

Perhaps if a gun dealer knew he was facing the possibility of life without parole for making a shady gun sale, it might dry up the supply.

[Spoonman]

27. OK

Then let's apply your own logic to the whole issue.
Don't punish the legitimate gun owner with banning firearms and registration fees and taxes, PUNISH THE CRIMINALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Man_in_the_Moon]

28. Define

'Shady gun deal'

[Cthulu_2004]

35. CO...

people stealing stuff from national guard armories fall under the UCMJ, not the normal civilian criminal justice system. Uncle Sugar takes a VERY dim view about this kind of stuff, it's much easier to convict the perpetrators, and instead of going to a country club minimum security federal prison, they go to Leavenworth, which is a well and truly sucky place to be. If they applied the same kind of rules in a widespread manner for civilians, the Constitution would be truly fucked, and hopefully you (along with the rest of us) would be out in the streets raising hell because of it.

Also, odds are EXCELLENT that these will not end up on some gun dealer's table at a gun show, because they're completely and totally obviously contraband. Offering them for sale in a public forum is the equivalent of walking around with a huge sign saying "FELON!!! ARREST ME!". (In case you didn't know, these are marked "US Property", and are never sold surplus.)

Yet these M203s still disappeared.

[CO Liberal]

36. Then Why Did You Start This Thread In The First Place???

Are we supposed to just throw up our hands and say "Oh, well - the bad guys will get guns anyway, so we might as well stop trying to prevent it" ?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???

[Cthulu_2004]

42. the purpose of the thread...

was to demonstrate that no matter what kind of laws you pass, people with criminal intent will still manage to get guns.

People who urge things like total bans of private firearms ownership often give "it'll keep criminals from getting guns" as a reason. This shows that argument to be a bald-faced lie.

[-..__...]

6. How would it help eliminate this?

Huh?. What does that mean? We already know it was stolen from the US Government.
What are investigators going to do? Trace it back to the point of purchase?

"Might"? You sound a little uncertain yourself. "Might" isn't good enough. Provide a valid argument
that would justify a workable registration scheme. Not just a simple one that "might" solve a
dozen or so crimes per year.

[jody]

7. CO, registration is not the solution to every gun problem you read about.

In my opinion, registration is not the solution to any gun problem but of course that's a point of disagreement between you and us pro-RKBA types.

[RoeBear]

9. CO please come back and...

...admit you made an 'oops'. We'll all respect you more for it.

[CO Liberal]

13. No "Oops" Here

If there was full registration for each and every sale, whoever stole these weapons would not have any place to sell them.

That's why I believe the sale of firearms needs to be controlled.

[Township75]

14. So you are saying those that buy grenade launchers illegally...

So you are saying those that buy grenade launchers illegally would not do so because they are registered. Once these stolen grenade launchers were found they could just follow the sales receipts to the original seller...or are you suggesting the buyer would cancel the illegal transaction because he is buying illegal registered grenade launchers as opposed to merely illegal grenade launchers?

Yeah...No "oops" there.

[slackmaster]

16. CO, the black market in guns works just like the drug market

There is supposed to be full registration for each and every sale of cannabis products in the USA (e.g. marijuana, hashish), yet we have a thriving black market. Here in California state law tolerates trafficking in cannabis among people who have dispensation from their doctors to use it, and that market operates in blatant violation of federal law. (Nobody is paying the $50 per ounce federal marijuana tax.)

How would registration of each and every sale of civilian firearms affect the black market in stolen, non-transferrable military destructive devices like an M79 or M203 grenade launcher?

[CO Liberal]

17. Control the Supply, Control The Sales

Dry up the black market.

Stiffen the penalties for illegal firearm sales and MAKE THEM STICK! (No plea barganing.)

And tighten security at the army depots.

[slackmaster]

18. The supply IS strictly controlled

Manufacturing of 40 mm grenade launchers is very tightly regulated and monitored. They can be made only for military or police (i.e. government) use and they are all registered.

The penalty for selling an unregistered destructive device is up to 10 years in federal prison for a first offense.

And tighten security at the army depots.

You may have a point there.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

24. Couple of things

40mm Grenade Launchers are tightly regulated. But anyone (well anyone who lives in a 'DD' friendly state) with a clean record can own one after going through the NFA/ATF hoops and paying the $200 tax. Of course finding a manufacturer willing to sell to a civilian is probably as time consuming as going through the red tape. There are only a handful of C2's out there that make them, or parts, for civilians.

Another problem with them is that each round (grenade) is considered a 'DD' and the redtape must be gone through and the tax ($200) paid on each round. I have never really looked into owning a -203 but I have heard that even the blue rounds (non-explosive practice rounds) are DDs, but I could be incorrect in that.

So you end up paying $2-3K for something that costs $2-300 bucks a shot.

[Cthulu_2004]

39. practice rounds..

aren't DDs because they don't have an explosive charge in the warhead. You can buy a receiver for a 40 as a title one weapon, and then file a Form 1 with ATF. Once the Form 1 is approved (with all the fun that goes with it) you can legally build it into a complete gun.

[jody]

22. CO, that's aggressive law enforcement. The Pro-RKBA group are

staunch supporters of aggressive law enforcement and strong sentences.

You say "Stiffen the penalties for illegal firearm sales and MAKE THEM STICK! (No plea barganing.)" That's the reason Ashcroft gives for having DoJ attorneys make a blacklist of judges. Are you a supporter of Ashcroft on his efforts at least narrowly as it pertains to gun crimes? :think:

Has the mixed crowd of "gun-controllers, gun-grabbers, and gun-haters" gone so far to the left that they end up on the right supporting Ashcroft? :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

26. Too too funny

"Has the mixed crowd of "gun-controllers, gun-grabbers, and gun-haters" gone so far to the left that they end up on the right supporting Ashcroft?"
That would be NRA life member AshKKKroft....

[Spoonman]

29. You have a good point

So, let's apply it to criminal acts committed with guns, and "dry up" that 30,000 we keep hearing so much about.

You are finally putting blame where it belongs, the individual.

[Cthulu_2004]

38. How exactly would you tighten up the supply?

Remember, these were government guns that ran away. You could ban ALL private ownership of guns, get rid of ALL gun dealers and manufacturers except bona fide government contractors, and this avenue would STILL be open for criminals to arm themselves.

Regarding penalties, what would you suggest, the death penalty? Because the penalties in place are currently MOST severe. We're not talking 18 months in a jail, we're talking 10 years in a prison for simple possession, plus dealing in stolen government property, plus at least 2 counts of conspiracy (one for conspiring to steal them, the other for conspiring to violate the NFA), and some other ancillary charges. We're talking 40 years MINIMUM, with no parole, in (best case scenario) a Federal Pen. This isn't counting the hefty fines ($250,000) for the NFA violation alone.

Given that, how would you stiffen the penalty up?

[RoeBear]

33. It should work...

...as well as car registration has. After all no one steals cars because they are all registered.

[Cthulu_2004]

37. Oh, CO....

these will NEVER, EVER be offered for sale to a bona fide purchaser. They're contraband from the get-go. Under the current law, EVERYBODY knows that this kind of thing is illegal except for certain very limited circumstances (on the NFA registry with full documentation and prior BEFAT approval).

Odds are good that these went directly from the thief to the "end user", and will never see the light of day again unless they're found in the course of a criminal investigation. The "end user" undoubtedly knows how many laws he's just broke, and obviously doesn't care.

[MrBenchley]

12. Sure they'll check the nearby gun shows

and known "law abiding" gun dealers....

[slackmaster]

19. Yeah, suuuuuuuuuuure

We'll be watching for the headlines.

[MrBenchley]

20. Or look at past headlines

"A former firearms and explosives dealer testified Thursday that only the lack of money kept Charles Kiles and Kevin Patterson from buying a grenade launcher to blow up two huge liquid propane storage tanks in Elk Grove.
Ronald Rudloff testified in Sacramento federal court that he nearly sold the rocket-propelled launcher to the pair at a January 1999 Las Vegas gun show where he was a vendor."

http://classic.sacbee.com/news/news/old/local04_20011026.html

And then there's this tidbit from one of the online RKBA cesspools:

"(quoting a news story) "Last winter at the Nevada County Fairgrounds, a man bought two SKS semiautomatic rifles with attached grenade launchers at a gun show and carried them out the door, according to the California Department of Justice. He walked past private security and sheriff's deputies before DOJ agents stopped him in the parking lot, the DOJ says. It was just what the fairground board of directors wanted to avoid, after assuring gun-show opponents the event would have stepped-up security. On Friday, felony charges were filed against the alleged seller, Grass Valley-area resident John Crabtree, 63. He's scheduled to appear June 3 in Nevada County Superior Court. Crabtree allegedly didn't have the proper permit to sell the guns, ignored the 10-day waiting period, and attached grenade launchers, which is illegal according to DOJ, whose agents also reported finding machine-gun parts and a flash suppressor at Crabtree's home."
THEN an RKBA "enthusiast" adds: "do any of us really have a problem with a rifle like this? It's just an old Warsaw Pact semi-auto, after all, and the grenade launcher is integral, not some add-on"

http://www.packing.org/news/article.jsp/8103

[slackmaster]

21. Yeah, I'm sure that happens every day at any old gun show

Business as usual for a typical gun dealer.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

[MrBenchley]

23. Cry us a frigging river

"ATF’s review of recent trafficking investigations clearly demonstrates that many firearms are diverted from legal commerce through a variety of illegal channels that law enforcement agencies can target effectively to reduce criminal and juvenile access to firearms.
Trafficking by corrupt FFLs. Although FFL traffickers were involved in the smallest proportion of ATF trafficking investigations, under 10 percent, cases involving FFL traffickers were associated with the largest total number of illegally diverted firearms, over 40,000, as compared to the other trafficking channels.34 All investigations involving FFL traffickers were associated with by far the highest average number of guns per investigation, over 350. But this number rose to over 560 guns in investigations of FFLs acting alone, and to over 575 guns when FFLs conspired with unlicensed sellers. Trafficking cases involved retail firearms dealers, pawnbrokers, and residential FFLs.
Gun shows and flea markets. Gun shows and flea markets are a major venue for illegal trafficking. About 14 percent of the investigations involved gun shows and flea markets. These investigations involved an average of 130 guns, the second highest number of trafficked guns per investigation, and were associated with approximately 26,000 illegally diverted firearms. Gun show investigations involved both FFL traffickers and unlicensed dealers."

http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/pdf/following/followthegunindex.htm

[slackmaster]

25. Boo-hoo-fucking-hoo

No matter how you spin it that still amounts to a tiny fraction of illegal firearm transfers.

[Spoonman]

30. Slack

The anti's have many "tiny" issues to deal with.

[MrBenchley]

31. And the RKBA "enthusiasts" are short of facts

and long on hooey.....

[Spoonman]

32. And

Don't forget the large diameter of it either.

[Cthulu_2004]

40. heh...

"He testified that he explained to Kiles the weapon could be made operable simply by removing a pin placed in it by federal firearms authorities."

In other words, it was a "DeWat" that had been demilitarized to government standards, so it wasn't legally a weapon. BEFAT has pretty strict guidelines for that, and it involves making the weapon unserviceable. In other words, it was a $2200 club. It also doesn't explain where they'd have gotten ammo for it.

Regarding the SKS story: Have you seen the "grenade launcher" on an SKS? It has no moveable parts, and is literally metal from the barrel in concentric circles that hasn't been machined off. Grenades aren't available for it in the US. They're totally legal in most of the country, because they're utterly useless.

[Aaron]

8. Army depot in a major urban center - interesting

I guess I didn't expect them to be placed there. Ty for posting this article :)

[Cthulu_2004]

41. They're all over the place...

It's where the National Guard meets for drill.

[happyslug]

43. History lesson.

A little history, after the General Strike of 1877, it became a policy of the US to have arenals in ALL MAJOR Cities so that the National Guard could be armed to suppress any revolt like the 1877 General Strike. Thus a lot of armories were built after 1877 and till the 1930s with this policy in mind. Most are still in use.