unstable with violent tendencies

[MichaelHarris]

good thing he still had access to an AK-47, wouldn't want the NRA upset. "Ortega has an arrest record in three states" http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2011/1116/White-House-shooting-suspect-obsessed-with-Obama-VIDEO

[elleng]

1. Right; good one.

[gejohnston]

2. was it an AK-47?

I mean it is kind of like the media claiming the dog was a pit bull only to find out that they did not know and just assumed. The Carson City shooting turned out to be a full auto Chinese pieces of shit. But that is not important. Notice it said arrest record and not conviction. Arrested for what? Have a problem with due process? For all we know it could be for being Hispanic in Idaho.

The NRA does not want felons getting guns, but I would not be surprised that the Bradys are gleeful for the propaganda fodder.

[Straw Man]

3. Wrong: bad one.

Police believe Ortega-Hernandez is mentally ill. He has an extensive record, ranging from domestic violence to drug charges.

--http://abcnews.go.com/US/white-house-shooting-suspect-ramiro-ortega-hernandez-arrested/story?id=14966099

This would disqualify him from legally acquiring the rifle, flagging him via the National Instant Criminal Background Check system, instituted in 1998 with the support of the NRA. He is a "prohibited person," and would most certainly have failed the mandatory NICS check. If you're thinking "gun show loophole {sic}," be advised that even a private sale to him would have been illegal, although private sellers do not have access to the NICS system and would have a difficult time ascertaining his status.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. Someone else bought it.

NBC is already on this one.

So it was either stolen, or unlawfully transferred to Ortega, OR, since people can't call NICS for private transfers, Ortega may have lied to the seller.

[Euromutt]

4. "Christian Science"; now there's a fucking oxymoron

Funny how nobody cites that one, as opposed to the standard "military intelligence," "jumbo shrimp," "compassionate Conservative" etc.

Fuck, being a "Christian Science Monitor" has got to be the easiest job in the world: there's nothing to monitor!

[Callisto32]

9. As a Christian and a man with a deep love and respect for science...

I find that very offensive.

I also find the fossil record deniers and young-earthers offensive, so....whatever.

We aren't all dragging our knuckles around, incapable of seeing how species change over time; and frankly, I'm surprised to see so much naked animosity against such a large and varied group as "Christians" from you. You're typically much more even-handed, and less bigoted.


Edit: typo fixed

[AtheistCrusader]

11. Christian Science, isn't.

Science is falsifiable. Christian Science is induction. It is not falsifiable. It's something else; not science.

Some of it may be MEASURABLE by science (as we can measure the effectiveness of the placebo effect), but that's it.

It isn't, in and of itself, science.

I agree the upthread objection could have been less offensively worded though.

[Callisto32]

26. Look, I agree that those Mary Baker-Eddy folks are out of their freaking minds.

The comment, though, didn't say anything about that specific group's (Christian Science) dogma it implied "Christian science" was an oxymoron, whether or not that was the intent.

Plenty of rigorous science is done by Christian men and women all the time. There are intelligent, thoughtful people counted among the ranks of Christians, and I get sick to death of hearing the oh-so-vogue American leftist line about how awful and backward we are. I spent years listening to it in college. I didn't put up with that bullshit then, and I don't put up with it now. It's bigoted nonsense, and indicates a worldview that does not comport reality.

[AtheistCrusader]

34. The way it was stated implied the Baker-Eddy group.

I agree, quite a large number of excellent scientists are Christians.

Hell, Ken Miller is a Roman Catholic. He's a hero of mine.

[Callisto32]

44. Sorry if I jumped too quickly based on a misunderstanding.

I read the grammar of "Christian Science is an oxymoron" to be talking about the words in their more general sense. I was reading it as follows:

Jumbo shrimp=oxymoron. A jumbo shrimp=member of a group that is indicated by words that are, in the abstract an oxymoron, but not so when applied as the label. Since the comment was that "Christian Science" is an oxymoron, I took the language to be referring to those two words in the abstract.

[AtheistCrusader]

45. By the poster capitalizing it, I read it to

refer to a specific dogmatic group by name, not all christians that accept/believe/work in any science field.

[ileus]

5. Becks fault

[AtheistCrusader]

6. NBC says it was a Romarm Cugir Wasr 10

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/White-House-Shooting-Suspect-Oscar-Ortega-in-Court-Thursday-134034923.html

Ortega didn't purchase it. Someone else did. So he may have stolen it, or lied during a private transfer from another law abiding citizen.

Since we have been denied public access to NICS, it is impossible for people to verify that the person they are selling to is eligible or not.

[spin]

14. The Romarm Cugir Wasr 10 was one of the weapons involved in Operation Fast and Furious ...

43 weapons in Phoenix traffic stop linked to ATF strategy
Posted: 07/06/2011

PHOENIX - The ABC15 Investigators have linked an additional 43 weapons recovered during a Phoenix traffic stop to the controversial Fast and Furious ATF case.

***snip***

Agents recovered at least 59 weapons during the bust. The ABC15 Investigators found 43 are connected to the Fast and Furious case with certainty.

We reviewed official ATF Suspect Gun Summary documents – a sort of “watch list” for suspicious gun sales and gun buyers. We matched serial numbers within the ATF documents to gun serial numbers contained within the federal court documents.

Most of the recovered weapons connected to the Fast and Furious case included Romarm/Cugir GP-WASR 10/63 UF Rifles and Romarm Cugir Draco pistols. Agents also recovered at least one FN Herstal pistol....emphasis added

Read more: http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/local_news/investigations/43-weapons-in-phoenix-traffic-stop-linked-to-atf-strategy#ixzz1dzB7SvAA

[AtheistCrusader]

15. Ho shit... That would be thick with irony, but completely unfunny if linked.

[Hoyt]

17. Would be ironic if that is how they tracked Ortega down so fast.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. No, I think they got him by the vehicle.

NBC already knows who bought the rifle from a gun shop. Wasn't Ortega.

[Hoyt]

16. Not true, you can take it to a FFL to handle the transfer. But most gunners will just whine rather

than doing that.

And, the idea that this guy lied to a private seller is conjecture -- I bet the private seller didn't give a chit and would have sold it even if Ortega had said he was going to fire at the WHouse. In fact, the majority of gun fanatics are right wingers (with some exceptions here), so the seller might well have given him some extra ammo or had the Young Republicans help him out.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

18. Still using conjecture and outright fantasy as the basis for your position i see...nt

[Hoyt]

19. Yea, like the gunners above aren't conjecturing to protect guns from bad publicity.

[one-eyed fat man]

20. This is right up your alley....

"Officials have said if the shots were fired from Constitution Avenue, it would have been a low-percentage shot. The round, believed to have been fired from the window of a moving vehicle, would have traveled 800 yards."

Since you are the expert on red dot snipers, maybe you can see the massive understatement there. The typical AK will shoot about 8 minutes of angle groups. At 800 yards, even if the shooter has figured the range, trajectory and allowed for drop perfectly the rounds will land somewhere in about a 5 foot circle. "Low-percentage shot" and then some, from a moving car no less? What was he aiming at?

[Hoopla Phil]

47. Don't muddy a good anti gun belief with math and science and stuff. . .

That's just rude.

[AtheistCrusader]

24. How does that square with your suggestion that 'right wingers/young repubs' might have encouraged it

?

Because that makes zero fucking sense.

[Hoyt]

27. Like your post makes sense.

I guess you missed the thread on the young republican who mentioned assassination.

[rl6214]

21. The thing with nut jobs like this guy is that they make shit up

then try to spread it around to anyone that will listen. They have these grand conspiracy theories with nothing to back them up. Kinda like this statement:

"I bet the private seller didn't give a chit and would have sold it even if Ortega had said he was going to fire at the WHouse. In fact, the majority of gun fanatics are right wingers (with some exceptions here), so the seller might well have given him some extra ammo or had the Young Republicans help him out."

[AtheistCrusader]

23. You mean 'spend a bunch of money'?

FFL transfers ain't fucking free.

[Hoyt]

28. So you wouldn't pay $35 to FFL for background check. Doesn't sound like a "responsible" gun owner..

Figures. Shows, why it's a mistake to consider a lot of gunners responsible just because they get training, buy a nice holster, etc. . . . . . . And why I believe a lot of gunners don't give a shit who they sell weapons to as long as they walk away with a fist full of cash.

[one-eyed fat man]

29. No wonder

So you wouldn't pay $35 to FFL for background check.

Nope, I sure wouldn't, I'm not that kind of "liberal." I am capitalist enough to include his fee as the cost of doing business, overhead, if you will, and account for it in the selling price.

The Commonwealth does make it a little easier. The Kentucky State Police runs every Conceal Weapons Permit holder through NICS every 30 days. If I ever sell a firearm, a buyer showing me his Kentucky CCW is pretty good evidence they are not a prohibited person.

And just to remind you before you squawk, I can't legally sell in any state but where I reside, and a buyer can't legally buy in any state but his own WITHOUT an FFL in the process.

[Hoyt]

30. Of course you will pay it out of proceeds. But your buddy above says fuck background checks.

How else would you pay it? -- liberal, capitalist, or whatever. But if one is not willing to pay the fee, then they are nothing but gun traffickers as far as I'm concerned.

[one-eyed fat man]

31. You really do miss the point

The legal obligation is not to knowingly sell to a prohibited person. You may want to note that the ATF maintains a website at great cost to the taxpayer that outlines the law as they see it, rather than the misinformation abounding in the minds of some. The relevant portions are quoted.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#gca-unlicensed-transfer

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

{18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30}
Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

{18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30}
Q: May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

{18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)}

So if you were going to sell one of your father's target pistols to your brother would you need a background check to know if he was a felon or a lunatic? Similarly, your threshold for a co-worker you have known for thirty or forty years might be different. For me it doesn't much matter, I haven't sold a gun. My gun safe is like the Hotel California for guns, they can check out but they will never leave.

[Hoyt]

35. Like the guy who may have sold gun to Ortega is gonna say, "Oh I knew he wanted to kill Prez."

That law is worthless and you know it. Besides, with the lack of registration it is very difficult to track who sold the gun. Now, let's do some effective registration so that it's easier to find those out for a quick buck.

As you guys like to say, "laws don't stop" an immoral gun owner from selling one to the Loughners of the world.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. NICS is free.

More people are likely to use it, if it is open to the public, rather than paying a fee.

You have no fucking clue the excise taxes, fees, and horseshit around firearms, ammo, licenses, etc.

[Hoyt]

36. Sure thing. Just what we need, letting neighbor check on neighbor to see if they have some issue.

I'll still bet my ass that most non-licensed folks trying to make a buck off selling would still turn a gun over for a fist full of cash even if the buyer fails. Why? The majority of gun owners are capitalists out to make a buck with no regard for society.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

37. So let me get this straight...

...you want anyone to be required to access NICS for background checks because that will keep criminals from getting weapons via private party sales, yet you don't want anyone to access NICS because they would be checking up on their neighbors?

[one-eyed fat man]

38. That explains a lot

Here all along I thought Hoyt avoided military service and it turns out he was a bombardier in B-25's. You can see classic symptoms of third stage "Garnett-Fleischaker syndrome" affecting critical thinking.

[Hoyt]

40. 'Critical Thinking"? Like that of someone who can't walk out the door with a gun or two.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

41. Making the choice to carry one...

...requires far more critical thinking than having the choice made for you...

Does it scare you that people make a rational and informed choice to carry a firearm, while you realize you are too weak minded and weak willed to even consider the topic? Worse even, you are so small minded that you see the only solution is preventing anyone from making a different choice than you would make.

[Hoyt]

42. I've considered it and realized long ago it wasn't good for society for me or other folks to tote.

[Hoopla Phil]

49. I noticed you skipped over the clarification posed by We_Have_A_Problem. Why is that?

And would you care to clarify your position?

[Hoyt]

39. No, I want you to use an FFL who has something to lose if they abuse the system.

Is that simple enough for you.

[Hoopla Phil]

48. Sounds like a perfectly reasonable fee to pay at the voting booth.

Do I really need the sarcasm thingy?

[Remmah2]

7. Agent provocateur?

Just thinking...................

[one-eyed fat man]

10. Is he Mexican?

Maybe the ATF sold it to him?

[spin]

12. Maybe it was a Operation Fast and Furious firearm...

Some will end up on our streets.

[Hoopla Phil]

50. Do you think we'd get a truthful answer if it was?

And many have already been found on the streets in the U.S. Unfortunately the only places reporting on it do not meet DU standards for sourcing.

[rrneck]

13. Did he move there from Moscow Idaho? nt

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[one-eyed fat man]

32. according to the BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-15784878

He is from Idaho.

[cleanhippie]

43. Didn't you post another story about a guy with an ak-47 and a police scanner some time ago?

Is this the same one?

[aikoaiko]

46. I see what you did there.

:rofl:

[Hoopla Phil]

51. Too bad it got locked. I was soooo hoping for some proof.

I even kept asking but the proof was never seen, or heard.

[Remmah2]

52. Nuts with guns vs Nuts with computers.

Both can do harm.