Has the Anti-Gun (or Pro-Gun Control) side had any "wins" in the last 8 years?

[Logical]

Serious question.

Have the antis won anything in the last 8 year to help their cause?

I cannot think of anything.

[hlthe2b]

1. Saying "Anti-Gun" is as bad as labeling the Pro Choice side, Anti-Life

So simplistic and erroneous as to be really insulting. One can hardly say that those who are PRO-Choice are opposed to life or in favor of abortion than you can say those who may favor some form of gun regulation--however limited-- are opposed to the second amendment or even that they are not gun owners themselves.

Exceedingly disingenuous, but then, I think you know that.

[Logical]

2. Not at all. Many people here are anti-gun. For example......

I am anti-GOP, anti-war, anti-religion, etc.

So would you like pro-gun control better?

I changed it for you!

[hlthe2b]

3. It is more accurate, yes.

[DissedByBush]

29. Less accurate term

Gun control means being able to hit your target. You control the gun.

And for the most part those who are for "gun control" are really for prohibition.

It's like the first government action "control" of marijuana, the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937.

Only its goal wasn't to tax, but eventually prohibit.

[TheWraith]

4. No, it's really quite accurate.

Generally speaking, the people who still care the most about new, restrictive gun laws are the ones who have something against guns and/or gun owners. After all, gun control has proven to be pretty much useless, and widely abandoned by average folks. The people still advocating it are then, by that standard, anti-gun. The spin is describing them as people "who may favor some form of gun regulation," as if anyone who is not in favor of failed gun control measures thinks there should be NO regulation, or worse yet, implying that there IS no regulation currently. There are, in fact, lots and lots of regulations, and most Americans favor either keeping them where they are, or loosening them. When you poll on specific issues, it gets a lot worse, since few people support the measures talked about by the gun control crowd, like bans on semi-auto rifles, nationwide registration, etcetera.

[hlthe2b]

7. No it is not...

[DanTex]

23. As usual, no data to back the false assertions...

This idea that specific gun control measures are unpopular is plainly false. It has come up in a few recent OPs, and polls were cited showing that comfortable majorities (65% or more) supporting things like a gun registry, for example here:
http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/Bloompoll.pdf

Nevertheless, based on the behavior of other gun advocates, I'll make some predictions:
1) You are not going to find a poll that supports the claim that "few people" support gun registration (or bans in high-capacity mags, or assault weapons, or BCs for private sales, etc.)
2) You are going to continue to make this false claim with no evidence to back it
3) The same pattern will continue with the rest of your false statements -- no facts, no problemo


It really suggests that the pro-gunners don't really feel too secure in their beliefs. Otherwise why bother making up all the false stuff?

[SteveM]

66. So the Bloomberg poll is really beginning the Big Push toward gun-control? nt

[onehandle]

6. And that's exactly how its meant. The talking points issued by NRA think tanks...

...share the same strategies (and personnel) as right-wing think tanks.

They issue the terminology to spread far and wide in forums and comment areas throughout the Internet.

[gejohnston]

8. what think tanks are those?

that the NRA has? What personnel other than some interlocking boards of directors?

[GreenStormCloud]

17. You are just splitting hairs.

"Pro-gun-control" is a lot to type. "Anti" serves quite well. Everbody knows the group that is being discussed.

BTW - Would you like to try to actually answer the question?

[hlthe2b]

21. that's what Frank Lutz says every time he develops some new

divisive and deceptive term for the RW. This is no different.

[Atypical Liberal]

45. Precisely.

All this semantic haggling over the label for people who don't think other people should be able to own guns is retarded.

It's "anti gun". It's short and everyone knows who we are talking about.

[MicaelS]

22. I prefer "Gun Prohibitionist"...

Since it allows coupling the current attempts to ban guns to the failed policy of Alcohol Prohibition.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. ooh-- yeah, like it

"Gun Prohibitionist" :thumbsup:

[SteveM]

67. I use "gun controller/prohibitionist," the Christian expression for...

one thing leads to another.

[Atypical Liberal]

44. Semantics.

Look, anti-gun is the common label for people who are against the second amendment. It's short, and to the point.

If it offends you, feel free to substitute "Anti-second amendment", or "pro gun control", or whatever other euphemism suits.

[cleanhippie]

47. Thread hi-jacker!

[RSillsbee]

55. So what are you a pro restrictionist?

How about a restrictionista?

[TheCowsCameHome]

5. This is gonna be fun.

:popcorn:

and IBTL

[OffWithTheirHeads]

10. Nahhh! This horse has been flogged so many times here that it

Will not even make a reality show, and God knows they will flogg anything to death.

[Logical]

16. Why would this get locked? Honest question.

[SteveM]

68. The no-no term is "gun g.....r" Prohibited!! nt

[DanTex]

9. In the last 8 years...

...close to a quarter of a million people have died from guns in the US.

So I'd agree that things aren't going very well in the area of gun violence.

[obxhead]

11. Can you cite a single case

where a gun has gotten up all by itself and killed someone?

[Hoopla Phil]

20. Here ya go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpgL5kuBpMA

[obxhead]

30. Sorry.

That gun didn't get up all on it's own. It was mishandled by a human.

Even by accident, every gun death can be directly attributed to human causes. Guns don't get up and fire themselves.

[Hoopla Phil]

57. You didn't watch it all the way to the end did you?

[obxhead]

60. I didn't watch it at all.

The title told me enough if you were trying to counter my point.

[Hoopla Phil]

63. Let me get this straight.

You make this declarative "That gun didn't get up all on it's own. It was mishandled by a human." but you didn't watch it?! Nice try on the clairvoyance, but it didn't work so good. At least you were honest in your last post.

[SteveM]

69. OH, you have to. Gun-controller's wet dream. nt

[cleanhippie]

50. Fail. Try again.

:rofl:

[OffWithTheirHeads]

13. Really? How many people have been killed by cars? Maybe we should ban them

or Asprin, or skateboards... oh what's the point?

[MyrnaLoy]

26. that's why

we have a 5 day waiting period for cars, aspirin, and skateboards. Oh wait, we only have that for guns don't we. Ever wonder why?

[rl6214]

34. Where do we have a 5 day waiting period for guns?

I can go into any gun store tomorrow and walk out with one in less than half an hour.

[MyrnaLoy]

35. you know the answer

but I'll play your silly game. You have a five day waiting period for handguns unless you have a CWP. Is every gungioneer a child now? You guys are becoming increasingly childish.

[inkool]

38. Not in PA.

There is no waiting period in Pennsylvania with or without a LTCF (our version of a CWP).

If the FFL I go to is not busy I could be in and out with a new firearm in less then 15 minutes.

[oneshooter]

41. Ther is a longer wait with out a CHL inTexas

About 10min. average to call in a NCIS check.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[oneshooter]

42. Only in certain backward states, such as the one you live in. n/t

[Atypical Liberal]

49. Not in Alabama.

You have a five day waiting period for handguns unless you have a CWP. Is every gungioneer a child now? You guys are becoming increasingly childish.

There is no waiting period for any kind of firearm for anyone lawfully able to buy firearms.

[MicaelS]

53. Maybe in your state, not in Texas

There is no national waiting period. Not anymore, since NICS came online. But if you have a 5 day waiting period, that tells me you live in Minnesota.

[RSillsbee]

56. I can walk into any gun store in Colorado (CHP or not)

and walk out w/ a gun in about a half hour.

Not every place has those dumbass waiting periods

[SteveM]

72. Oh, I get it, now...

The poster could have been reading a Sears Roebuck Catalog (1964 issue), or comparing growing seasons of Florida and Texas Valencias; whatever, and you would have lanced your rhetorical carbuncle all over him/her anyway. Makes sense, now.

[Atypical Liberal]

48. No waiting period here.

I can go buy a firearm from a gun store in 15 minutes here.

No waiting period here. Ever wonder why?

[gejohnston]

58. waiting periods on

cars, skateboards, and aspirin? You can't be serious.

[one-eyed fat man]

64. Don't you avoid the waiting period?

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=423465&mesg_id=423668

"I do believe that waiting periods have saved lives."

Don't you say waiting periods are useful but that you, personally, hate waiting periods and use a loophole to avoid them?

"I can buy a hand gun without the waiting period...I enjoy shooting, I don't like waiting."

BUT you are determined to impose them on everyone else?

How do you explain that position? Cognitive dissonance or just plain old-fashioned hypocrisy?

[SteveM]

70. "5-day waiting period" for guns? Where? I wait 5-10 mins for NICS test. nt

[Logical]

14. Once again, suicides are more than half of them. Not "gun violence"

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DissedByBush]

31. Dishonestly includes suicides

Guns have no correlation to suicide rate.

Absolutely none.

Japan has virtually no guns in private hands, and a vastly higher suicide rate.

[DanTex]

39. Of course, I forgot that the NRA doesn't consider a suicide to be a tragic and preventable death...

...I'm sure I'd change my mind too if my objective was to increase gun sales.

As far as the link between guns and suicide, again it's the NRA versus the scientific community. Which is why the American Association of Suicidology says things like "Research has shown that the access to and the availability of firearms is a significant factor in observed increases in rates of youth suicide."

[DissedByBush]

43. It is tragic, but it has absolutely nothing to do with guns

Suicide rates by gun dropped in Australia after gun restrictions were introduced.

However, the suicide rate stayed the same as alternate means were used.

It is idiotic to count suicides as gun violence. Might as well campaign against ropes because of all the hanging suicides.

Inflating stats is a standard tactic of anti-gunners. The Violence Policy Center lists dozens examples of "Criminal Use of the 50 Caliber Sniper Rifle" in order to justify banning them. But the fact is those were mainly crimes of illegal possession -- not one has been USED in the US to kill someone.

[DanTex]

52. Read the peer-reviewed studies, not the NRA propaganda...

Here's a starting point, there are plenty of others.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2563517/

Over the 22 year study period household firearm ownership rates declined across all four regions. In multivariate analyses, each 10% decline in household firearm ownership was associated with significant declines in rates of firearm suicide, 4.2% (95% CI 2.3% to 6.1%) and overall suicide, 2.5% (95% CI 1.4% to 3.6%). Changes in non‐firearm suicide were not associated with changes in firearm ownership. The magnitude of the association between changes in household firearm ownership and changes in rates of firearm and overall suicide was greatest for children: for each 10% decline in the percentage of households with firearms and children, the rate of firearm suicide among children 0–19 years of age dropped 8.3% (95% CI 6.1% to 10.5%) and the rate of overall suicide dropped 4.1% (2.3% to 5.9%).

[DissedByBush]

59. Australia showed differently

Japan shows differently.

People who want to kill themselves will.

The method is irrelevant.

[Atypical Liberal]

51. But it's not an excuse for gun control.

Of course, I forgot that the NRA doesn't consider a suicide to be a tragic and preventable death...I'm sure I'd change my mind too if my objective was to increase gun sales.

As far as the link between guns and suicide, again it's the NRA versus the scientific community. Which is why the American Association of Suicidology says things like "Research has shown that the access to and the availability of firearms is a significant factor in observed increases in rates of youth suicide."

I have no idea what the NRA's position is on suicide.

But as an NRA member, I can tell you my position on suicide.

I don't care if you want to kill yourself. What you do to your own body is the ultimate freedom. If you want to die, that is your call to make. People should be free to make that choice, and in fact I think assisted suicide should be legal.

Whether it is tragic or preventable is beside the point. If people choose to commit suicide using firearms, this has no bearing on people who lawfully own and use them.

But further, Japan has a far higher rate of suicide and a much lower rate of ownership of firearms. The simple fact is that if someone wants to kill themselves there are plenty of easy, painless ways to do it that don't involve firearms.

The easiest is to simply the a rope around your neck, loop it over the doorknob, and sit down on the floor. This will pinch off your arteries in your neck and you will black out within seconds. It is painless. I know because I have had this done to me in Hapkido training. I was on top of the guy and he choked me out in seconds.

[Atypical Liberal]

46. And yet every year less and less do.

So I'd agree that things aren't going very well in the area of gun violence.

And yet every year less and less people die from guns, and violent crime is down overall, at a 30-year-low.

[bluerum]

12. Oh. Brother.

Try not to hurt yourself patting yourself on the back.

[Logical]

15. No, I just think it shows the antis have no support from anyone.

[baldguy]

18. The totalitarian corporatocracy doesn't give funding to liberal causes.

So, the answer is "no". It has nothing to do with what the Constitution or the law actually says, or what the majority of people want. It has everything to do with who has the money & where they're willing to spend it. Right now they're more than willing to spend money to allow innocent people to be killed.

[gejohnston]

27. then that is why you should be on our side

The Constitution and law says what it says, and I don't get what you are saying at this point.
What do people actually want? Everyone is for control, the difference is to what degree. Do most people know what current laws are? I am willing to venture they do not. Enough people think you can buy machine guns at gun shows or Wal Mart, so the wanted changes could very well be current laws.
What is sensible regulation? Can someone please explain to me what that means and how Heller and previous decisions prevents what both sides agree is sensible?
What gets innocent people killed is the drug war. Not all, but most by being at the wrong place at the wrong time. Yes we have more pistol crime than UK, but they have more machine gun crime. All of it drug gangs in both countries, so if you buy your dope from gangs, don't point your finger at me the fucking NRA or anyone else but the bong you are hugging. If you grow your own or only buy from pacifist growers in BC, then you have my apologies.

[baldguy]

36. Just look where they put their money.

If the they had their way you'd be able to have all the guns you could ever want - and you'd be paying all the taxes, you wouldn't be able to vote, and you'd have no say in your own economic future.

What the totalitarian corporatocyracy is afraid of is your economic & political freedom, and your economic & political liberty, and your vote, and your union. They are most emphatically not afraid of your guns. So let's just dispense with the lie that gun ownership has anything to do with freedom or liberty.

[gejohnston]

37. corporate types don't care about guns

beyond what serves their purposes, which is to throw about half the country a bone.

[Katya Mullethov]

19. Newell got out from under his house payment with his transfer

One small victory , but a victory all the same .

[MyrnaLoy]

25. sure

no guns on campus in Idaho and a number of other states.

[Logical]

28. But that was in place already.

[MyrnaLoy]

32. went to the floor

and was defeated, that's a victory. What, you don't like it? You lost in Idaho and a number of other states.

[X_Digger]

40. So the best you've got is maintaining the status quo? n/t

[Logical]

54. Yes, that is all they got!

[MyrnaLoy]

61. actually

almost everyone considers it a loss for your side. Maybe reading past gungion posts on the matters shows your tears. Now you call it a status quo but just a few months ago forum members called it a loss. Wow, can you guys ever admit any defeat?

It was a defeat in Idaho and a defeat in the other states where it came up. You know it, everyone else knows it, the child in you just wants to weep a bit more.

[X_Digger]

62. Feel free to cling to that 'win'.

We're a patient bunch. It took two legislative sessions and a different governor for Texas to get 'shall issue' concealed carry.

Meanwhile, I just got an email from my employer reminding me that tomorrow, September 1, Texas's new 'parking lot' law kicks in, and company policy has been changed to meet it.

Speaking of 9/1, that's also the effective date for HB25, HB716, and HB766.

The 2010/2011 legislative session in many states saw a lot of pro-RKBA changes.

PA's castle doctrine took effect 8/27 (HB 40).

MI's HN 294 took effect 8/28.

DE's HB 48 goes into effect in a couple of months, allowing for firearm rights restoration and removes the state background check.

WI got concealed carry, though details are still being hammered out re training.

NV's AB 282 went into effect 7/1.

IN saw quite a few changes take effect on 7/1- parking lot protection and state pre-emption being the two biggest.

OH saw restrictions on carry in places that serve alcohol removed.

NC saw additional castle doctrine language added to state law and state park carry among others

ME got parking lot protection and carry in state parks / historic sites.


So yes, you cling to the status quo on one issue. Yay, you won! *snicker*

[GreenStormCloud]

71. Your side didn't gain any ground.

All you did was stop us from gaining any yardage on that particular play. We still have the ball and we will be back. Our side scored on lots of bill in 2011. All you have to brag about so far is that you stopped a few of our plays.

PRO-GUN VICTORIES SO FAR IN 2011

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6456
Virginia: Governor M cDonnell Signs Four NRA-Supported Bills

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6465
Utah Governor Signs Two Important Pro-Gun Bills into Law!

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6563
Kansas: Two NRA-Backed Bills Signed into Law as the 2011 Legislative Session Adjourns in Topeka!

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6572

Virginia: Governor Signs Two Remaining NRA-Supported Bills!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/virginia-politics/post/cuccinelli-says-guns-in-churches-are-okay-if-theyre-for-self-defense/2011/04/11/AFvTYPLD_blog.html

Virginians may carry weapons for personal protection into places of worship while religious services are being conducted, according to a new legal opinion by Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli.

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6632
North Dakota: Employee Protection Bill Signed by Governor Dalrymple

http://newsok.com/fallin-signs-self-defense-rights-law/article/3562026
Oklahoma governor signs bill that expands self-defense rights

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6707
NRA-Backed Bill Becomes Law in the Cornhusker State

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6822
Oklahoma Legislature Passes, Governor Mary Fallin Signs “Parking Lot” Protection Expansions!

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?ID=15241
Gov. Rick Perry Signs Legislation Protecting Texas Workers’ Right to Self-Defense

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/InTheNews.aspx?ID=15279
Pennsylvania: Gov. Corbett signs bill on right to use deadly force. (Castle Doctrine)

http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/2011/06/29/news/19local_06-29-11.txt
Permitless concealed carry becomes law.

http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Read.aspx?ID=6964
Thursday, June 30, 2011

Today, Governor John Kasich signed both Senate Bill 17 and House Bill 54 into law. SB 17 is important concealed carry reform legislation and HB 54 will provide individuals a pathway to restore their firearm rights.

http://wsau.com/news/articles/2011/jun/30/ohio-governor-signs-law-allowing-guns-in-bars/
Ohio governor signs law allowing guns in bars

http://www.pjstar.com/free/x1107265105/Quinn-bars-gun-permit-disclosure
Gov. Pat Quinn on Saturday signed into law a measure barring the public from knowing who holds a firearm owner identification card in Illinois.

http://www.8newsnow.com/story/15018316/new-gun-laws-take-effect-in-nevada
Two new Nevada gun laws took effect Friday that make it easier to buy guns across state lines and obtain permits for concealed weapons.

http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2011/jul/09/gun-bill-is-signed-into-law/
Governor signs bill lowering CCW age from 23 to 21.

http://www.wifr.com/news/headlines/Gov_Walker_Signs_Concealed-Carry_Bill_Into_Law_125253309.html
Gov. Walker Signs Concealed-Carry Bill Into Law

[ileus]

65. Everytime an OC,CC, castle doctrine, stand your ground law is pulled they win.