The NRA should be labeled a terrorist organisation!

[KurtNilsen]

The NRA is one of the main lobbying groups that along with the GOP has fought against requiring markers in explosives. They have blocked these effort ever since the Oklahoma bombings. If explosives had these markers you could immediately identify where the explosives came from.

Off course big busines want none of it either. Would hurt their profit margins. I guess terrorists are too profitable customers. Innocent lifes be damned!

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. Yeah, we can't go having any of that free speech nonsense

[KurtNilsen]

3. Are you a NRA member?

The first thing Kerry should do when he gets elected is to force US companies to use markers and demand the same of Europe.

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. No, but I do own a gun

And it was one of several reasons I moved from D.C.

I have never understood why many liberals interpret every other aspect of the Constitution, well, liberally and not the 2nd Amendment. It makes no sense to me.

[John BigBootay]

104. I AM an NRA member--

and I might support markers IF it ended there. But it NEVER ends there or anywhere when it comes to guns and the "gun grabbers."

Markers are actually a pretty decent idea, but when you add up all of the little nibbles that are taken out of the RKBA, you start getting really sizable bites. Bites that effectively ban gun ownership in several cities, make it impossible to get a CCR in several states, ban many vintage and modern firearms under the so-called "assault weapons" ban, etc. etc.

So, my personal position then becomes, "I will tolerate no more incursions into this right," and I respect the NRA for standing up to the onslaught.

PS-- I joined the NRA last year BECAUSE I felt that these laws are starting to go too far. This is the unintentional consequence that such legislation is having, swelling the ranks of the NRA and filling it's coffers full of money in an effort to defeat the very goals the grabbers would promote. It's paradoxical that the harder they try to take away, ban or restrict firearms, the stronger the NRA becomes and the stronger the members resist this force.

[MrBenchley]

8. How the fuck is a bomb "free speech"?

The NRA has been playing kissy face with right wing paramilitary groups for some time now.

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. Lobbying is free speech

The NRA isn't using any bombs.

[MrBenchley]

18. Nobody's proposing putting taggants in their blood money

although maybe they should....

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. Blood money?

The NRA defends one of the amendments to the Constitution. Just because you don't like that one, doesn't mean they are doing wrong.

[MrBenchley]

28. Blood money

"The NRA defends one of the amendments to the Constitution."
Is that what they were doing last week? Funnny it sure loooked scummy to me and others.....

"The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence has filed a complaint with the U.S. Senate Ethics Committee against Sen. Larry Craig (R-Idaho), citing an alleged conflict between his role as author and floor manager of the gunmakers'-immunity bill and his board position with the National Rifle Association (NRA), Roll Call reported March 1.
"Senator Craig has impermissibly acted in his capacity as a senator to further the interests, including the financial interests, of an organization for which he serves as a member of the board of directors," the Brady Campaign wrote in its letter to the Ethics Committee."

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summaries/reader/0,2061,569826,00.html

"Craig's original bill would have granted legal immunity for the gun industry in most cases charging gross negligence and liability for crimes committed with guns. Chicago officials said the bill would have blocked a lawsuit the city filed in 1998 seeking $433 million in damages from certain suburban gun dealers and national firearms manufacturers for providing the weapons used by Chicago street gangs.
Two gun-control amendments made the final bill unacceptable to Craig and the National Rifle Association. One would have required criminal background checks for people who buy firearms from private dealers at gun shows; the second would have renewed the assault-weapons ban that is set to expire in September.
The amendments passed by narrow margins Tuesday after an all-out effort by Democrats and gun-control advocates to rally support for them. Democratic presidential candidates Sens. John Kerry (D-Mass.) and John Edwards (D-N.C.) left the campaign trail on Super Tuesday to vote in support of the amendments.
Eight Republicans voted with 44 Democrats and one independent to pass the gun show amendment. On the assault-weapons ban, 10 Republicans joined 41 Democrats and one independent to vote for passage. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/20040303/ts_chicagotrib/billaimingtoprotectgunmakersisscuttled

[Muddleoftheroad]

30. Exactly what they were doing in fact

Given that many of those who oppose guns seek to have them taken away completely, the NRA and other gun supporters are well aware that they face an enemy that they can't dare compromise with.

From the posts in this thread, it seems you don't like the Constitution much. You criticize the NRA for protecting the 2nd Amendment and criticize a publisher for his use of the 1st. Are there any other amendments you don't like?

[MrBenchley]

32. In other words, it was the scum of the earth

trying to evade responsibility for their actions...

And I like the Constitution just fine.....what I don't like is a buncch of far right wing humholes lying about it..

"We believe that the constitutional right to bear arms is primarily a collective one, intended mainly to protect the right of the states to maintain militias to assure their own freedom and security against the central government. In today's world, that idea is somewhat anachronistic and in any case would require weapons much more powerful than handguns or hunting rifles. The ACLU therefore believes that the Second Amendment does not confer an unlimited right upon individuals to own guns or other weapons nor does it prohibit reasonable regulation of gun ownership, such as licensing and registration. "

http://archive.aclu.org/library/aaguns.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. No, just a group of citizens trying to protect their rights

So, it seems you also don't like freedom of association. Wow.

And the last part, no the ACLU is not deciding authority on my rights.

[MrBenchley]

40. Who are you trying to kid?

It was one of America's scummiest industries trying to shield itself from legal liability. And it deserved to fail.

"no the ACLU is not deciding authority on my rights."
Tough luck....they're 100% correct on this issue, as the courts have shown time and time again.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Only in your mind

The gun industry is like every other legal industry in America, except it and a few others like the media received special recognition in the Constitution.

Guns are like hammers and saws and cars and a lot of other things. They are tools, nothing more or less. In the right hands, they do a lot of good. In the wrong hands, they do harm -- just like most things.

[MrBenchley]

63. The "get away with murder" bill was in Congress...

and it was disgraceful.

[Muddleoftheroad]

78. No, it's just something you consider "disgraceful"

But you seem to consider anyone even wishing to own a gun equally bad.

[MrBenchley]

87. It was a scummy bill....

and it died as it deserved to. Now go snivel about it to someone who gives a big steaming crap.

"A large number of police chiefs and other law enforcement officials have joined gun control advocates in a campaign to defeat a Senate bill that would grant gun makers and dealers almost total immunity from lawsuits.
The police officials' campaign began last week when Chief William J. Bratton of the Los Angeles Police Department held a news conference there denouncing the bill. Chief Bratton and 80 other police officials then signed a letter to the Senate expressing their opposition. At the same time, a full-page advertisement featuring a photograph of Chief Bratton and paid for by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence appeared in The Washington Post.
The advertisement is expected to appear soon in other major newspapers and on television, and Chief Bratton, the former New York City police commissioner, said he would go to Washington to lobby senators. "

http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?id=9635&siteSection=1

[Muddleoftheroad]

90. Civility

Try it, you'll like it.

[MrBenchley]

96. Try not sticking up for scumbags and racists

sometime....

[CO Liberal]

114. Using That "Logic"...

...when the KKK burns a cross, it's just a bunch of friends gathering for a weenie roast.

:shrug:

[demsrule4life]

122. Cross burning is not a protected right

It is a federal crime.

[CO Liberal]

123. Cross Burning Is an Activity.....

...that involves assholes.

Just like the NRA leadership.

[FatSlob]

124. Come now

I thought the proponents of reasonable gun control would be above that.

[MrBenchley]

125. You got that right....

[RoeBear]

150. Nice job of connecting...

..the NRA to cross burning. It just doesn't work.

[MrBenchley]

157. It works perfectly, roe...

Considering Heston was calling for lynching Al Gore in 2000....

But it's sad to see that some people are fooled by a token or two.

[RoeBear]

158. Calling for a lynching of a white guy isn't...

...racism. I thought you knew that.

[MrBenchley]

159. Funny, David Duke thought Heston was hot shit

He wasn't fooled...and neither is anyone else..

[RoeBear]

160. I'm surprised at you Benchy...

...it took you 159 messages before you got Dukes name into the thread.

Let me know when you fire off an e-mail to Karl Malone telling him what a tool you think he is.

[MrBenchley]

162. Gee, roe...

David Duke isn't fooled at all...but evidently some people are a lot more gullible.

[RoeBear]

164. Actually I'm quite annoyed that...

...you keep bringing up David Duke when you respond to me. He might be your favorite racist but I'd prefer not to hear what you think about him.

[MrBenchley]

165. if you don't like your playmates, roe...

perhaps you ought not to climb in the sandbox.

I'd prefer not to hear the RKBA crowd slurring every Democrat anyone's ever heard of and constantly posting turds from right wing cesspools.

[demsrule4life]

166. You find any info yet about european powders?

[MrBenchley]

167. Jeeze, dems...don't tell me

you're STILL trying to pretend taggants aren't successfully used in Europe?

"WALTHAM, Mass. Thermo Electron Corporation (NYSE:TMO) announced that Germany’s Ministry of Interior has chosen the company’s Thermo Detection-brand EGIS III system for explosives trace-detection in German airports. The Ministry made the selection after reviewing the results of a European Civil Aviation Consortium (ECAC) competitive performance test, which evaluated a number of different explosives trace detectors. The ECAC is the European counterpart to the United States Federal Aviation Administration.

“We are very pleased that the German government has chosen to standardize on the EGIS III,” said Richard F. Syron, chairman and chief executive officer of Thermo Electron. “EGIS III reportedly outperformed the competition in the ECAC’s head-to-head comparison. In awarding this contract, the German government has demonstrated that they value the EGIS system’s sensitivity, ease-of-use, low false-positive rate, and ability to detect ICAO taggants."

http://www.airport-technology.com/contractors/security/thermo/press2.html

"Explosive identification: The Eight will work together and urge
nations to cooperate to track more closely the manufacture, sale,
transport, and resale of explosives to keep them out of terrorists'
hands, as well as to tag explosives in order to speed up
investigations. The United States will share with other nations
ongoing research and regulations we are developing."

http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/p8_factm.htm

"The interim study, prepared by the Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, examined the use of taggants in Switzerland for the past 17 years and "found no safety concerns at all," Kelly said. "

http://edition.cnn.com/US/9803/04/tagging.explosives/

[demsrule4life]

168. The anti gun press likes to bring up the Swiss

report. But of course none of them have ever read it.

Thus, smoke- less powder, black powder for shooting, ammonium nitrate fertilizer, and AN-based explosives mixed on site are not tagged.

http://books.nap.edu/books/0309061261/html/198.html

[MrBenchley]

169. The "anti-gun press" = Everybody but Newsmax

and a handful of other right wing cesspools...

[demsrule4life]

170. Dont think that post came from Newsmax or

any other rightwing cesspool.

[MrBenchley]

171. Jeeze, dems...

You mean you want to discuss how your link to a source discussing taggants used in Europe proves your claim that taggants aren't used in Europe?

[demsrule4life]

172. Yes they are used in Europe

but they aren't used in smokeless gunpowder, or black powder used for shooting.

[slackmaster]

175. Burden of Proof Fallacy

It's incumbent on the person who advances a claim that something IS done to prove his assertion.

MrBenchley's inability to come up with any evidence that taggants are used in smokeless gunpowder ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD pretty much proves that his claim was, lets say an "unlucky guess".

:smoke:

Tell us the one about the Catholic Church supporting gay rights again.

[slackmaster]

174. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Still not ONE SHRED of evidence that taggants are used in smokeless gunpowder ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD!

:smoke:

Keep spinning, Benchy.

[FatSlob]

81. Sarah Brady...

I'm sorry to have to use the "A" word on her, but she is surely an Authoritarian.

[FatSlob]

77. Please don't curse like that in your subject line

This is a family place.

[iverglas]

99. lordy jayzus

Who suggested that the NRA's speech be suppressed?? Did someone say that the NRA should be thrown in jail for what it said? Did I miss something?

Isn't the deal with free speech that when somebody says something that somebody else considers to be rude, crude or just a plain bad thing to say, the somebody else gets to SAY SO?

"I am free to say what I want!" is not, and never was nor will be, a defence of WHAT YOU SAY. Or of what the NRA or anybody says.

Don't they teach this stuff in school or something?


Come on now. Let's see some incisive commentary on the actual subject of the thread -- REQUIRING MARKERS IN EXPLOSIVES, and WHY the NRA opposes it.

Who knows, maybe I could learn something. Freedom of speech is just so useful for that purpose, isn't it? Let's see you use yours now to do something other than state the obvious, 'k?

.

[FatSlob]

102. Hi, Iverglas.

Good to see you again. The NRA does not oppose taggants in explosives. It opposes them in smokeless powder, which is not an explosive. The reason is that taggants in smokeless powder could raise the pressure levels. This could be damaging to anybody in the vicinity, including the person holding the gun. The Department of Defense opposes taggants in smokeless powder for the same reasons.

[slackmaster]

115. The NRA opposed a bill that included taggants in smokeless powder

It was written in haste as a response to the Oklahoma City terrorist bombing. Partly because of NRA's opposition the baby got thrown out with the bathwater.

The safety of taggants in smokeless gunpowder has not been established. To this day nobody puts taggants into smokeless powder, despite MrBenchley's repeated assertion that European manufacturers do. He's just plain wrong.

[slackmaster]

2. You are misinformed - NRA doesn't care about taggants in fertilizer

The NRA fought against the use of taggants in smokeless gunpowder, claiming that nobody had proved they could be incorporated into smokeless powder without compromising its safe use in reloading ammunition.

The bomb that Timothy McVeigh constructed for the OKC bombing consisted mainly of ammonium nitrate and oil.

[KurtNilsen]

6. Alright, I appologize if i am wrong.

A friend just told me of this and I got enraged. I am unfortunately a bit emotional today after the carnage in Madrid.

[slackmaster]

10. No prob' - BTW I'm not an NRA member but I do reload ammo

Smokeless powder is not very useful for bombs because it cannot easily be made to detonate as a high explosive. I don't have a problem with using taggants in it per se, but I would like to see proof that it does not alter the burning characteristics of powder. Improperly loaded ammunition can be very dangerous.

Taggants are made of plastics and resemble the marshmallow inclusions in Lucky Charms cereal. They've been used in commercial high explosives like dynamite for decades.

[MrBenchley]

13. You're not wrong

After the Oklahoma City bombing and again after the Olympic Park bombing Clinton and the Democrats pushed to put taggants in explosives and substances that could be used for explosives. Guess who blocked that proposal?

[slackmaster]

19. The measure was flawed

The proponents of that measure made it too broad, including materials that don't even make good bombs.

If they'd simply pushed for taggants in ammonium nitrate fertilizer I doubt the NRA would have said a word about it.

[KurtNilsen]

52. If I am correct, there was a lot of opposition from big business

because it would be quite costly to incorporate markers into their explosives.

[slackmaster]

56. The Department of Defense opposed it too

Because they were concerned about the safety of smokeless powder.

[MrBenchley]

61. This may help...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forum_archive_html/DCForumID43/1472.html

[KurtNilsen]

73. Thanks,

I actually just read that article prior to starting this thread. Found the article in a google search.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FatSlob]

173. Or, if the push had been for any other explosives,

I doubt the NRA would have cared. They could care less about TNT or "plastic" explosives.

[FatSlob]

4. Sorry, your facts are incorrect.

They are against tags in gunpowder, as they could raise pressures to unsafe levels, causing the guns to blow up. Anyway, conventional smokeless powder makes a very poor explosive, so tags in it would be idiotic.

[MrBenchley]

9. Funny, they don't seem to have a problem with this

in the rest of the world...

[slackmaster]

12. Let's see some proof of that assertion

Show us documentation that smokeless gunpowder produced in ANY other country contains taggants.

I'll give you a clue - Powders made in England and Germany are available in this country and contain no taggants.

[slackmaster]

22. Crickets chirping

Come on, MrBenchley. Can you provide proof of your claim or not?

I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer. You haven't answered me with anything other than genetic fallacy posts for several months now. Come to think of it, just about ALL of your posts are based on genetic fallacy.

[slackmaster]

130. More than two hours for lunch and still no proof

That smokeless powders sold in Europe contain taggants.

Who would have thunk it?

[Name removed]

131. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FatSlob]

25. Hmmm, could you please provide a cite?

Come on now, I'm sure you can back up that statement, right?

[slackmaster]

26. He can't and won't

Because he's just plain wrong.

[MrBenchley]

29. Sure Fat Slob

Just type "Europe" "guns" and "explode" in google and you'll see what a pantload the assertion that they made guns explode was....

[slackmaster]

33. See what I mean?

MrBenchley can't back up his statement so he resorts to an evasion, a Red Herring, an Appeal to Google.

He's also implying that smokeless powders used in Europe contain taggants. That's bullshit.

[FatSlob]

37. You are correct,

the tactics used were not proper arguementative form. I guess that it is impossible to prove that taggants are in widespread use in smokeless powder, too.

[FatSlob]

34. Of course tags are not put in smokeless powder

therefore, there is no such information on Google. :hi:

[MrBenchley]

41. In other words....

the assertion was horseshit...but then we all knew that already.

[slackmaster]

42. Thanks for finally admitting that you made an incorrect statement

Congratulations, MrBenchley!

:toast:

That wasn't so hard, was it?

[FatSlob]

46. I applaud your admission

It takes a big man to admit that he was mistaken.

[MrBenchley]

47. I'm not mistaken, fat slob...

I know right wing propaganda when I see it...and that's how I knew "our guns will blow up!" was such a steaming pantload...

[FatSlob]

48. Can you provide one shred of evidence?

Why, then, did you admit that your assertion was wrong?

[MrBenchley]

51. You first, fat slob...

I already demonstrated that your asserrtion was hooey....

[FatSlob]

55. Refresh my recollection,

What assertion was "hooey"? Also, why don't you be the big man here and go first?

[MrBenchley]

67. Fat Slob...

If you can't even remember the nonsense you spout (which is here on the Internet for anyone to see), why should I waste more time on you?

[slackmaster]

68. Yeah, pick up your marbles and run home crying

Like you always do when faced with facts you can't refute.

There are no taggants in European smokeless gunpowders.

[FatSlob]

74. See ya!

:hi:

[slackmaster]

49. Oh, too bad - another evasion

MrBenchley - The claim we are discussing here is YOUR statement:

"Funny, they don't seem to have a problem with this in the rest of the world...",

Which was in reference to the subject of putting taggant materials into smokeless gunpowder.

Bottom line - No country on Earth requires taggants in smokeless powder, no manufacturer of smokeless powder on Earth puts taggants into its powder, and the safety of same has never been established.

The Department of Defense opposed the post-OKC proposal you mentioned, BTW. They get their smokeless gunpowder from the same suppliers that make powder used by amateur reloaders like me.

[FatSlob]

86. You're right, your assertation that Europe uses tags in

Smokeless powder is "horseshit" thanks for pointing that out. I appreciate it when somebody stands up and takes responsibility and admits when an assertation is "horseshit". BTW, could you please stop this awful cursing. I hate having to quote such language in a family place.

[NickB79]

57. I just did a Google search like you suggested

And I got squat for actual data. Care to reveal your source that my Google search seemed to miss?

[slackmaster]

60. MrBenchley is claiming that European smokeless powders have taggants

Which is a steaming pantload of hooey.

[MrBenchley]

69. So what does that tell you

about the assertion that taggants (such as are used in Europe) would make guns explode? Hmmmm?

[slackmaster]

76. Repeated bullshit is still bullshit

Provide ONE SHRED of evidence that any European gunpowder contains taggants and I'll back off.

[natasha1]

161. Careful, Slackmaster...

You don't want to get your posts deleted for "harassing" people.

Nat

[MrSandman]

163. More gun control propaganda...

Based on lies and distortions.

Not only are taggants not used in smokeless powders, smokeless powders are not considered explosives.

[FatSlob]

91. However, taggants are not used in Europe

in smokeless powder, perhaps because they could cause unsafe pressure levels.

[slackmaster]

112. As a reloader they seem like a very bad idea to me

The most important characteristics of smokeless powder are stability, uniformity, and predictability. In all types of smokeless except obsolete Cordite the particles are very uniform in size, shape, weight, and composition. Powder is made in very large batches with careful quality control.

It's pretty obvious that adding foreign substances to smokeless is a bad idea and probably dangerous - Like guns you have to assume that any unknown presents hazards. The smaller taggant particles would surely settle to the bottom of the can, or rise to the top, resulting in lack of uniformity of even the most carefully weighed loads. That has to be bad. And to be able to distinguish one can of powder from another different taggant mixtures would have to be used in every can. More non-uniformity.

That's probably why no smokeless powders made anywhere in the world contain taggants.

[KurtNilsen]

53. Bud didn't this opposition lead to the entire bill being scrapped?

[slackmaster]

58. That's right

And you can place the blame on the bill's authors for writing a bad bill.

[KurtNilsen]

64. No I dont.

When I am siding against the pentagon, big business and the NRA by the rules of triangulation I am bound to be right :-)

[slackmaster]

66. I stand corrected

You hit the trifecta.

:D

[MrBenchley]

5. Amen to that...

You might recall that asswipe Charlton Heston called for his inbred followers to lynch Al Gore in 2000....

[alexwcovington]

7. The NRA is not a terrorist organization

You're going overboard and you know it. Rage against Rod Paige instead.

[MrBenchley]

11. The NRA are right wing scumbags

and damn close to a terrorist group...among their board members are a bunch of guys with ties to nutcase paramilitary groups and the publisher of Soldier of Fortune...

[Muddleoftheroad]

17. Horrors

The actual publisher of a magazine?

Wow.

[MrBenchley]

21. The actual publisher of a stroke book for McVeigh wannabes

and other nutcases....

As well as a swell coleection of bigots, criminals and loonies....

"Leroy Pyle is a proud member of the Illinois Militia, a group he describes as "average Joes concerned about maintaining our nation's heritage." The militia invited Pyle to join after he made a name for himself as systems operator of the Paul Revere Network, a computer bulletin board on gun rights that recently added a "MilitiaConference."

Wayne Stump, a former Arizona state senator who once served on the advisory board of English First (a radical anti-immigrant group), is closely associated with extremist Jack McLamb -- whom even Pyle describes as "a little far out." McLamb is a retired Phoenix police officer whose American Citizens and Lawmen Association tries to convince police officers to align themselves with militias against the federal government.

Harry Thomas, another NRA board member with ties to McLamb, is a former Cincinnati police officer who warned, on a 1994 speaking tour: "'Waco' is a word which, among American patriots, engenders the same anguished feelings of outrage as the word 'Alamo.'... Miss Reno, I have this to say to you: If you send your jackbooted, baby-burning bushwhackers to confiscate my guns, pack them a lunch. It will be a damned long day. The Branch Davidians were amateurs. I'm a professional."

T.J. Johnston founded California's Orange County Corps in 1994. Johnston told The Nation that the corps had 1,000 armed members divided into 28 local units, including a quick response team "armed and ready to meet any challenge at a moment's notice." For example, Johnston says, "We're not going to have any repeat of the 1992 L.A. riots." "

http://www.motherjones.com/news/featurex/1996/07/board.html

Swell lot of playmates...

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. Freedom of Speech

Includes a lot of things I don't like -- Hustler magazine and some stuff much worse.

But I don't get bent out of shape when people actually use their rights. You might try it sometime.

[MrBenchley]

31. Who the hell do you think you're kidding?

Nobody's trying to prevent this Nazi asswipe from publishing his odious crap for rright wing humholes.....but that doesn't mean he should set public policy on firearms, either.

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. Doesn't mean he shouldn't either

He's a citizen and gets a vote just like you and me.

And, as for setting policy, he seems a lot more concerned with freedom than you do.

[MrBenchley]

44. The hell it doesn't.....

"i[]he seems a lot more concerned with freedom"
Well that's a laugh and a half.

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. I don't laugh about freedom

And those who wish to take it away scare the hell out of me -- on the right or the left.

[MrBenchley]

72. Trying to pass these Nazi shitheels off as defenders of freedom

is a BIG laugh.

[Muddleoftheroad]

80. Funny, coming from someone quoting the ACLU

The ACLU defended Nazis marching in Skokie, you might recall.

There is nothing Nazi about the NRA. You don't have to like them. Hell, I don't even belong because I don't agree with everything they do. Then again, I'm also not much of a joiner. They do, however, protect our rights from folks such as yourself.

[MrBenchley]

92. Who the HELL are you trying to kid?

The ACLU didn't endorse the Nazi platform..

And the NRA doesn't protect anything but gun industry profits.

[Muddleoftheroad]

103. You are very wrong about the NRA

That's why MILLIONS of gun owners joined. And the Democratic Party's aversion to guns cost us the last election, let's not go for a repeat performance.

[MrBenchley]

119. No, I'm not...

I've been right on the money about those racist scumbags....

"That's why MILLIONS of gun owners joined."
Funny, the only millions about the NRA that can be verified is the hundred million dollars they ain't got.

"Costly legal, legislative and political battles in the last decade have left the National Rifle Association with a $100 million deficit, reopening a bitter debate within the group about how it manages its money.
In the past decade the group's efforts have helped Republicans win the White House and Congress and led to laws in more than 30 states banning lawsuits against gun manufacturers. In the last year the NRA helped pay for a losing legal battle against campaign finance legislation, which the Supreme Court upheld this month.
But through many of those years, according to Internal Revenue Service and NRA records, the organization spent more than it took in."

http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthtribune/7544578.htm

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FatSlob]

97. A "stroke book"?

Please, the frequent and continuous references to masturbation and penises is getting disturbing. I don't know why you feel the need to continually write about them, but please quit it.

[KurtNilsen]

14. I was using hyperbole intentionally to express my disgust.

[MrBenchley]

24. Don't blame you....

the facts are disgusting enough...

http://www.vpc.org/studies/nrafamst.htm

http://www.spectacle.org/695/sep.html

http://www.vpc.org/nrainfo/heston.html

[slackmaster]

27. You have good cause to take umbrage at the NRA

They aren't very friendly to liberal or progressive causes.

[FeebMaster]

35. They aren't very impressive

when it comes to gun rights, either.

[FatSlob]

39. A lot better than Sarah Brady, though.

[FeebMaster]

43. That's questionable. (nt)

[MrBenchley]

45. Yeah, but feeb, you're the one who was saying that

Trent Lott wasn't pro-gun enough to suit you...

[FeebMaster]

54. That's right.

I did say that. Frankly, I don't think Trent Lott is very pro-gun at all.

[MrBenchley]

82. Shows what YOUR opinion is worth....

"The NRA's big guns

1) Sen. Trent Lott, Senate Majority Leader, R-Miss.: One of the most powerful legislators in the world, Lott was also one of the keynote speakers at the NRA's 127th national convention in Philadelphia in June 1998. "You are the mainstream of America," Lott said, adding that if Congress were to pass further gun restrictions, "we might as well fold up the flag and melt down the Liberty Bell." Whenever possible, he's used any procedural motion at his disposal to shoot down any and every gun-control law Democrats have proposed. "And he tries to appear reasonable as he does it, which is his trick," says lobbyist Marie Carbone of Handgun Control Inc."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/08/12/nra/index1.html

Of ccourse, he's also a racist piece of shit....so of course the gun lobby loves him.

[FeebMaster]

89. That's interesting.

What legislation has Trent Lott introduced or voted for to repeal current federal firearms laws. What legislation has the NRA suggested or supported that would repeal current federal firearms laws.

[MrBenchley]

93. Stick up for old Trent elsewhere, feeb.....

[FeebMaster]

101. Who is sticking up for him? (nt)

[MrBenchley]

105. Gee, feeb....

Who was that trying to pretend that Trent wasn't a "gun rights" scumbag....why that would be YOU....

[FeebMaster]

109. I don't see what that has to do

with sticking up for him. I don't think Trent Lott is particularly pro-gun. He is certainly a scumbag though. In fact, I have repeatedly called Trent Lott a dickhead, as I recall. I don't recall sticking up for him anywhere. If you could link me to a place where I have stuck up for him so I could correct my error, I'd certainly appreciate it.

[MrSandman]

148. Don't ya see,

If you say that someone is not RKBA, that means you are saying they are not RW scumbags, and in some convoluted way, you are sticking up for that person.

See back twenty years ago(metaporically), it was decreed that authoritianism on weapons is progresive on social issues.

[FeebMaster]

149. I see.

Although metaphorically speaking, I don't think the proclamation could have been made more than 15 years ago, since the Republicans were still passing new gun control laws up until around then.

[MrSandman]

151. Proclamation in "Newspeak"

[MrBenchley]

50. Yes, That NRA....

"During his keynote address at the recent annual convention of the National Rifle Association (NRA) in Orlando, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush thanked members for helping to elect his brother president in 2000, CNN reported April 27.
"Were it not for your active involvement, it's safe to say my brother would not be president of the United States," Bush said.
He added that he and his brother both support the NRA's argument that the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment makes bearing arms an individual right with few restrictions.
"The sound of our guns is the sound of freedom," said Bush."

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summaries/reader/0%2C2061%2C563037%2C00.html

Funny, when Jebbo or any member of the Bush Crime Family opens his fat yap, most sane people don't hear "freedom" coming out.

What sort of freedom does the NRA mean? Why, the freedom to lynch people they don't like!

""Now, saying 'I'm with you guys on guns.' In any other time or place you'd be looking for a lynching mob." The crowd responded with "let's do it" and "I've got a rope."
-- The Grand Rapids Press, October 17, 2000 quoting NRA president Charlton Heston and describing audience reaction. "

http://www.algoredemocrats.com/04um/YaBB.pl?board=Declared&action=display&num=1072806033&start=29

"Paul Blackman, NRA director of research, has written that inner-city violence, which kills predominantly young black males, is good for society. In his 1994 paper, "The Federal Factoid Factory on Firearms and Violence: A Review of CDC Research and Politics," Blackman dismisses public health researchers who have decried the $20-billion-a-year medical costs and loss of productivity costs of firearm violence, arguing that since young homicide victims are "frequently criminals themselves and/or drug addicts or users," he argues their deaths offer "net gains" to society.
In a startling statement, Jeff Cooper, NRA board member and columnist for the NRA's flagship publication, the American Rifleman, noted in 1991 "the consensus is that no more than five to ten people in a hundred who die by gunfire in Los Angeles are any loss to society. These people fight small wars amongst themselves. It would seem a valid social service to keep them well-supplied with ammunition." "

http://www.commondreams.org/news2000/1020-03.htm

And that humhole David Duke knows a kindred spirit when he sees one...

"I was astounded to read these courageous remarks by Charlton Heston.  I am thankful to hear a man with such high esteem say essentially the same things for which I have been reviled by the liberal media. His words should be reproduced and put into the hands of every American."

http://www.duke.org/writings/heston.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

65. Inner city violence

I have lived through it -- in D.C. where owning guns is illegal. All that gun grabbing does is make law-abiding citizens either suffer without protection or move. I moved.

[KurtNilsen]

70. So you wanna shoot the poor?

How progressive of you.

How about actually fixing the root cause.

Your policy is identical to the Neo-con chicken hawks, just on a miniture scale.

[FeebMaster]

71. Right. Because self defense isn't progressive.

:eyes:

[KurtNilsen]

79. Social problems should be solved by other means that at the

point of a gun. Similarly, as nations should avoid bombing each other.

[FeebMaster]

83. I don't think a person defending himself

with a gun is particularly interested with social problems while he's doing it. He's probably more concerned with staying alive.

[Muddleoftheroad]

85. That's good in theory

Till one of your neighborhood thugs mugs, shoots, rapes or kills somebody you care about.

[KurtNilsen]

100. I am serious.

i have twice been assaulted by immigrant gangs in Norway. Got a concussion both times, and was hospitalised.

Now, I gave it some serious thought. And believe me, lying there licking my wounds I kept dreaming about having had a gun at the time. And shooting the bastards. If you have experienced that kind of beating you might not know that the physical pain is almost nothing compared to the incredible deep feeling of utter humiliation.

But, what then..What if I had a gun and shot some of these kosovars. It would have started a cycle of retaliation that would not only put me in danger, but also my family and my friends.

I belive you are a whole lot safer not carring a gun, and all statics support my claim.

[Muddleoftheroad]

107. Statistics

On the gun issue are wildly flawed. Many cases of using guns to ward off an attacker are never filed. The police agencies and FBI have their own agendas that skew stats.

As for your circumstance, I'll take my chance with a gun. I won't be tied to a truck and dragged. I won't be lynched. Not without a fight.

[KurtNilsen]

111. Alright, I respect you opinion.

Have a good friday evening. :-)

Cheers.

[RoeBear]

117. Are you a gun loving brother...

...like me? :pals:

[Muddleoftheroad]

118. More like than love

But I definitely feel safer now that I am out of Southeast DC.

[Name removed]

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[solinvictus]

152. Kosovars?!

What are they doing in Norway? The war's over, send them home.

[DoNotRefill]

95. It depends.

is somebody breaking into your home to kill you a social problem?

If it is, it should be met with deadly force.

Saying people shouldn't defend themselves when their lives are in danger is the equivalent of saying that rape victims "should just lie back and enjoy it."

[MrBenchley]

98. Yeah, but that cuts into gun industrry profits!

You have to keep your eye on the NRA's real goal.

[MrBenchley]

75. Worth noting that nearly every civil rights group

turned up on the NRA enemies list...as did nearly every labor union or group working for social justice...

Meanwhile, the scummiest politicians in America are championing the NRA and its dishonest charade...

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. Anything but a charade

The NRA is obvious about what they do. Sarah Brady and others are the dishonest ones. They want to take away guns, they just plan on doing it bit by bit.

[MrBenchley]

94. The NRA are lying scumbags....

and racist besides.

[Muddleoftheroad]

108. The NRA

As a group, it defends one of the amendments and, as such, should be more welcomed by the left since many NRA members are Democrats.

[MrBenchley]

120. The NRA are lying scumbags

and right wing loonies to boot.

[FatSlob]

121. I'm a member

I believe the term you are looking for is lunies. It is derived from lunatic. "Loonies" would refer to birds often found in Michigan and parts of Canada, among other places.

[MrBenchley]

126. I rest my case....

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/08/12/nra/

[FatSlob]

127. Suuurrrrrrrrre, that was credible

An article by a former employee of HCI. :hi:

[MrBenchley]

128. Between you and him

guess which one has credibility?

Here's a hint...it is not the one who's over in another thread fretting openly about why right wing horseshit is right wing horseshit.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

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[slackmaster]

138. The only sense in which Texas' CCW law is more "lax" than NY's

Is that you don't have to convince some bureaucrat that you have a "legitimate need" in order to qualify for a permit. The licensing procedure is a lot more stringent.

Texas requires a 10-15 hour training course for an initial application and a 4-hour refresher course for a renewal.

New York has no training requirement.

Texas requires two recent color passport photos, two sets of fingerprints taken by a law enforcement agency employee, a copy of your Texas driver license or identification card, and notification of completion form (TR 100) from a DPS-authorized handgun course.

Documentation requirements vary from county to county in New York, but statewide there is no photo requirement and it looks like they take only one set of fingerprints.

See http://www.packing.org/states.jsp for more information.

BTW I notice MrBenchley still hasn't presented any evidence to support his claim that smokeless gun powders used in Europe contain taggants like those used in commercial high explosives.

I wonder why that is...

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

143. TOO frigging funny...

Somebody would never guess from your post that the current law has been revised since pResident turd signed it.

But it's always good to see the RKBA crowd sticking up for the GOP.

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

146. Texas is a "success" the way Fox News is "fair and balanced"

But hey, it's nice of you to acknowledge that at least it repealed the idiotic "guns in churches and bars" provisions...

As for real Texas statistics, as opposed to NCPA's right wing fantasies...

"Texas' crime rate has declined much more slowly than other large states'. From 1995 to 1998, Texas' crime rate fell 5.1%, half the national average (10%), and the least of any of the nation's five largest states.
The institute drew a specific comparison between Texas and New York, the state closest in size to Texas. During the 1990s, Texas added more prisoners to its prison system (98,081) than New York's entire prison population (73,233). Overall, during the 1990s, Texas added five times as many prisoners as New York did (18,001).
Yet since 1995, the study found that New York's decline in crime was four times greater than Texas' decline in crime. Texas' crime rate (5111 per 100,000) is 30% higher than New York's. In 1998, Texas' murder rate was 25% higher than New York state's rate.
“If locking more people up really reduced crime, Texas should have the lowest crime rate in the country”, says Jason Ziedenberg, senior researcher at the institute and report co-author. "

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2000/420/420p25b.htmhttp://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2000/420/420p25b.htm

Texas crime did not drop faster than the nation as a whole...despite NCPA's fantasy...

http://www.todayfoundation.org/atac/comparedtous.shtml

[slackmaster]

147. Nice goalpost move

I guess it all depends on how one defines "success". To me it means restoring to the good guys the choice to get a permit to carry, without having any negative effect on public safety. Based on that criterion Texas is a roaring success.

Too bad Ann Richards didn't support liberalized carry in Texas when she had a chance. We just might have ended up with a different present occupant of the White House. But strategic thought seems beyond some of us who have only hatred for all things related to guns.

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

156. Nice to see a member of the RKBA crowd

sticking up for Governor AWOL's record in Texas....if only you could have slurred some more Democrats while doing so.

The link got doubled up...here you go.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2000/420/420p25b.htm

"Interesting graph. It shows..."
What a crock the claim was...

[demsrule4life]

139. This coming from the anti's

that condones lying if it fits their cause.

[MrBenchley]

140. Gee, dems....

Tell us again that Ed Asner is a communist.

[demsrule4life]

141. Hey everybody, Some time last year I called Ed Asner

a commie! Now can you come up with something else?

[MrBenchley]

144. Says it all

and shows why nobody has to bother coming up with "something else."

[Name removed]

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[Muddleoftheroad]

84. Shoot the poor?

Hell, I WAS one of the poor and I'm still not too far from it. My family and I managed to get out. But, yes, law-abiding citizens did need guns in our neighborhood. Certainly, the gangs and the dealers had them.

[KurtNilsen]

106. I respect your opinion,

but I do differ. I think that carrying a gun is not the solution. If there are armed dealers in your neighborhood it is a law enforcment issue.....

[Muddleoftheroad]

110. Again, good theory

Now, let's try reality. The dealers will be there no matter what the cops do. The addicts will as well. I want to be able to survive and protect my family.

[Romulus]

113. you're right

social problems are "a law enforcement issue."

But what if law enforcement in your town isn't doing a damn thing about the problem, while busy mass arresting non-violent protestors who aren't causing a disturbance? And then having the Chief lie about his role in the mass arrest affair? And you have to go home every night and pass by those "law enforcement issues" between your bus stop and your home?

That would be Wash., DC.

[Name removed]

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[texasdem99]

153. Damn! That's awesome

"I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by six"

Love that. Is that original, or has that catch phrase been around for a while?

Couldn't be more succinct than that!

[Name removed]

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[WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot]

116. So

we should make black powder have a different burning rate, because of these taggants?

Would this not put those who use black powder for sporting purposes in peril?

Will you include smokeless gunpowder even though it is not listed as an explosive? When you change the burning rate of all gunpowder used in an estimated 10 billion rounds of ammunition purchased every year, will you want the responsibility of dealing with recreation shooters that are killed or injured from these new formulas?

Keep in mind that many of the smokeless powders in use right now, have been largely unchaged since their initial formulation in the 20th century? One popular pistol powder, Bullseye, has been largely unchanged since 1913.

Remind me, how many bombings have been made with gunpowder?

[Wickerman]

176. Locking this up - I can't see there is much

left under the sun to discuss. And, I suppose its pointless to tell you not to carry it over to another thread? :sigh:

What WAS this thread about, anyway?