Guns are legal. Drugs are not. The inevitable result?

[nonperson]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110619/us_nm/us_shooting_longisland

Four dead in New York drug store shooting

– Sun Jun 19, 3:39 pm ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) – Four people were shot to death on Sunday in a suspected robbery at a Long Island drug store, police said.

Suffolk County homicide detectives found four people shot dead at Haven Drugs in Medford, about 60 miles east of New York City, at mid-morning after getting a 911 emergency call that was placed from the store's parking lot.

Police said two of the victims were believed to be store employees and two others customers, and that robbery was the likely motive.

All four were dead at the scene. Other details on the victims were not immediately available.

It's past time to make guns illegal and drugs legal.

[Kaleva]

1. About 70% of homicides involving a gun in Detroit are drug related.

[ImNotTed]

3. Wow.

:(

[RC]

5. When drugs are illegal and the only job you can get is drug dealer,

this will continue to be the outcome.

[Kaleva]

11. It is my belief that the state of the economy has a greater impact on drugs and gun crime...

then gun control and the war on drugs themselves.

[X_Digger]

22. Acually, crime does not track with economic troubles.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=97234406

[Kaleva]

28. The homicide rate does seem to follow the economy though.

Back at the old Kerry/Edwards forum, the debate about renewing the AWB was hot and heavy. While doing some research on the issue, I came across graph that charted the homicide rate from the early 1900's to the present day. What struck me was rate followed closely economic downturn and social change and times of relative prosperity and stability.

The rate was low at the beginning but it began to climb in the 20's (recall that the so-called roaring 20's was not a time of prosperity for all and immigration was at a high point), peaked in the 30's, and plummeted during WWII. It remained low during the rest of the 40's, stayed low in the 50's and began to climb again in the turbulent 60's. It wasn't until the 90's when the homicide rate began to decline again.

I'll bookmark this thread and if I can find that graph again, I'll PM you the link if you are interested.

[X_Digger]

31. Except it doesn't, actually..

The great depression (1929-1940'ish) saw homicide drop.

There's more unemployment now than in the 90's, but we're at lows not seen since the '60s.

[Kaleva]

48. Well, that shoots the gun control and economic theories down

I should have found the chart before making the post instead of relying on memory!

Here's another interesting theory:

"A new study finds that homicide rates in America may be linked to how people perceive government and leadership."

"In his analysis, Roth found four factors that relate to the homicide rate in parts of the United States and western Europe throughout the past four centuries: the belief that one’s government is stable and its justice and legal systems are unbiased and effective; a feeling of trust in government officials and a belief in their legitimacy; a sense of patriotism and solidarity with fellow citizens; and a belief that one’s position is society is satisfactory and that one can command respect without resorting to violence."

http://psychcentral.com/news/2009/12/03/homicide-rates-rise-when-leadership-questioned/9909.html

[X_Digger]

50. Another theory is prohibition(s)..

.. and the attendant black markets that they engender.

Notice that during prohibition, the rate rose, only to immediately drop when repealed (1920-1933). The spike in the 60's sorta coincides with the 'War on Drugs' bullshit, and the increase in the late 80's - 90's does coincide with the epidemic of crack cocaine-- however it really doesn't explain the recent drop.

[Katya Mullethov]

55. Prohibition threatens legitimacy at every turn

In the least it provides ample temptation to do so .

The Gunrunner ® cartoons are really starting to flow arent they ?

[RC]

2. The government doesn't care about our guns, theirs are bigger than ours.

And until they do care, the situation will not change.

[LeftinOH]

4. Drugstore robberies are nothing new. This robber probably could have gotten

exactly what he wanted without hurting anyone (pointing a gun at someone is usually all it takes), and if caught, he wouldn't be up for four murders.

[Electric Monk]

6. Junkies in search of a fix tend not to be the most rational of thinkers

[slackmaster]

8. Unlike meth addicts they're usually not violent, but usually isn't always.

:argh:

[slackmaster]

7. What kind of illegal drugs does Haven sell?

And can you provide any evidence that the people who did the shooting possessed their guns legally?

[AlabamaLibrul]

9. Any controlled substance you don't have a prescription for is illegal

I don't claim to know the status of their gun possession, however.

[slackmaster]

10. It's pretty safe to assume that gun laws were broken in a case like this

So a person who is inclined to disobey drug laws is also willing to disobey gun laws, not to mention the laws against violently attacking innocent people.

I think the problem in this case is criminals.

[Kaleva]

13. One doesn't have to assume as the murders themselves are a dead give away that gun laws were broken.

[gejohnston]

46. How many junkies are going to pass

a simple NICs background check in Vermont or Wyoming let alone the hoops you have to jump through in New York.

[one-eyed fat man]

112. They can't unless they LIE!!!

From the Form 4473

Question 12e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or any depressant, stimulant, or narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?

Any unlawful drug user is a "prohibited person." But if they are willing to risk prison to get their illegal drugs from illicit sources it is doubtful they would be worried about the statement at the bottom of the form either. They have been routinely committing felonies, for years in some cases, doubtless one more or less will not weigh heavily upon their conscience. They might even have a lucid moment and ask their drug dealer to provide them with a gun and avoid that whole pesky NICS business altogether. After all, that is what drug dealers do, supply consumers with the things the law says they can't have.

I certify that the above answers are true and correct. I understand that answering “yes” to question 12a when I am not the actual buyer of the firearm is a crime punishable as a felony. I understand that a person who answers “yes” to any of the questions 12b through 12k is prohibited from purchasing or receiving a firearm. I understand that a person who answers “yes” to question 12l is prohibited from purchasing or receiving a firearm, unless the person also answers “yes” to question 13. I also understand that making any false oral or
written statement, or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this transaction, is a crime punishable as a felony. I further understand that the repetitive purchase of firearms for the purpose of resale for livelihood and profit without a Federal
firearms license is a violation of law.

[RaleighNCDUer]

12. It is about the easy access to guns, legal or not, facilitating the

stealing of hard to access drugs, legal or not.

If drugs were more legally accessible, strung out druggies wouldn't need a gun to get them.

[one-eyed fat man]

14. Duh?

"If drugs were more legally accessible, strung out druggies wouldn't need a gun to get them."

If the strung out druggie was robbing a drug store, then the killer was likely after legal, but prescription drugs. Pharmacies are pretty sure to have oxycontin, but unlikely to have heroin or crystal meth.

So it's the government's fault for not keeping addicts in free drugs so they don't rob people?

That might work. Pure drugs, free, take all you want, tattoo "DNR" on their foreheads. Dead junkies are cured.

[nonperson]

21. "...tattoo "DNR" on their foreheads. Dead junkies are cured."

Tattoos. Nice touch. Be sure to include an ID number for posterity. Or perhaps a bar code. Maybe RFID. Or those "new" things for the next five minutes, those little squares with all the shapes and squiggles.

Be careful how you judge. We all feed the monkey.

[one-eyed fat man]

43. Back to you

You are the one who said this happened because drugs were illegal.

I am just agreeing with you. There are 30,000 dead Mexicans because a little weed never hurt anyone. It's all the government's fault. If dope were legal all the dopers who support the criminal enterprise with their "harmless" habit would no longer gleeflully underwrite the murder and mayhem with their money.

The same morons who think that their silly gun laws will keep some dope dealer from taking a gun in trade from one crackhead for his fix or have moral compunctions about selling it to a 13 year old gang banger. Ask the dude you buy your dope from if he can get you a gun and if he needs a background check?

My sarcastic solutions make as much sense as your "serious" ones.

On the other hand, not even dopers want to fly on airplanes flown or maintained by potheads. I don't much care for drunks. either.

[nonperson]

58. Pot heads and drunks =

Your two classifications comprise some of the most accomplished human beings in history.

What have you accomplished, Mr. Straight Edge?

But you feel it's your appointed duty to judge.

[one-eyed fat man]

66. For one

I have managed not to steal, rob or kill people to support a drug habit. I have reached a ripe old age with a home that's paid for, money in the bank, and not made any widows or orphans by driving drunk. Never once did I abuse my spouse or endanger my children in a chemically induced rage or stupor.

Along the way I did multiple combat tours in two wars, 26 years on active duty. Raised a family. Learned to fly airplanes, hold an inspection authorization from the FAA.

All mundane, not of great importance, but it is an honest living.

I am sorry I don't find killing people to steal prescription pain-killers to be much of an accomplishment.

Feel free in deluding yourself that your drug use makes you more artistic, more socially adept, brighter, more enlightened, and wittier than those sober drones who can face reality without the crutch of a chemically induced euphoria.

You don't need my approval or permission. Feel free to join all these famous and accomplished drug users.

[Katya Mullethov]

77. Great link !

Odas Moon ....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odas_Moon
I'd like to tip one back with him someday . JUST ONE !! With extra isobutyl proprionate !

[gejohnston]

78. NKAWTG !

Nobody kicks ass without tanker gas

[nonperson]

85. I achieved many of those same accomplishements without judging others

Who use drugs like these many examples of artistic, socially adept, bright, more enlightened wittier pothead losers.

I've never killed anyone for any reason, drugs or some bullshit war. But everyone is free to make their own choices on who or why to kill, right?

We all have to feed the monkey. Some of us don't realize there is a monkey being fed.

You're very full of yourself. Apparently the typical authoritarian control freak.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gejohnston]

93. Why didn't you say so,

I don't know about anyone else, I don't think anyone is supporting the drug war. He even said as much. That makes you the authoritarian because you are judging us, and expect us to clean messes we do not make. What we are saying is that we should not pay for problems we do not create or contribute to.
The point of your post was that I should pay for a problem I do not contribute to. Would expect us all to say "hey, cool man"? That makes you look more authoritarian I used dirty words. He used pictures.

[nonperson]

96. Those photos you posted

They're a result of the War on Drugs and the antiquated, wrongheaded attitude of people like you that makes a "War on Drugs" possible, including the weapons and the results of their use.

[gejohnston]

101. you missed the point

I did not post the photos, one eye did. People like me? Do I look like Nixon? I am against the war on drugs as well as you. My point about pot heads was simply that don't expect me to problems I do not contribute to. Let's go over this one more time
I do not buy drugs
I do not sell drugs
I do not sell guns to drug dealers
I was a kid when Nixon started the war on drugs
I do not support the war on drugs.
Therefore I should not be expected to have me rights curtailed because of a problem I had no part of creating. That is what at least a couple of us got out of your post.

[one-eyed fat man]

109. The photos I posted

are of people your money killed. Deal with it.

Like I said, I don't care what drugs you use or why. I think the war on drugs is a bigger failure than the Volstead Act.

But you buy illicit drugs, and underwrite a criminal enterprise with your money. Without your money there is no drug trade. Without your money there are no Mexicans killing each other to get your market share.



Maybe you should get the socially conscious, eco-friendly and morally upright drug dealer you patronize to start carrying dead Mexican free dope. A boycott by consumers got dolphins out of tuna.

[one-eyed fat man]

113. You don't get it

YOU, your money, the money you pay so you can "cop a little buzz" paid for that. YOU made it happen. They are fighting over YOUR money.

Unless you grow your own, you are paying Mexicans to kill each other for your pleasure.

[Straw Man]

75. I'll happily read their poetry and listen to their music.

Pot heads and drunks =

Your two classifications comprise some of the most accomplished human beings in history.

What have you accomplished, Mr. Straight Edge?

But you feel it's your appointed duty to judge.

I don't want them flying airliners or carrying guns. Call me judgmental: I won't lose any sleep over it.

[gejohnston]

76. Frank Zappa and Thomas Wolfe are not among them

Heroin sure as hell did not make Janis Joplin more creative any more than booze and pills did Hank Williams.

But you feel it's your appointed duty to judge.

That is rich coming from someone who wants other people to pay the price for problems they don't contribute to or create.
What is sounds like to me is that your connection got busted for murdering one of his competitors. On some level you feel guilty for giving him the money that put the gun in his hand. Sorry, I don't pay for my father's sins, and there is no fucking way I plan on paying for yours.

[nonperson]

91. Do you live in a fantasy world?

Because you're just making shit up at this point.

I don't have a connection. But you seem to be very familiar with such relationships. Can you recommend one?

[gejohnston]

94. no, do you?

Don't travel in those circles.

[nonperson]

98. You don't travel in those circles?

You're simply unaware of the circle you're in.

[gejohnston]

102. Could be, since I don't push my attitudes on them

and they don't push it off on me. I will say I have known pot heads that were pushy and had issues with those who chose not to.

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. Funny thing, I've known a lot of junkies who wanted to get their drugs,

but I've never met ONE who wanted to be a junkie.

Decriminalize, legalize and TREAT them, and they won't be desperate for a fix at ten o-clock in the morning.

This guy had no access to drugs, but he did have access to a gun which could give him access to the drugs. He was obviously not sticking the place up for the non-existent money in the till.

The war on drugs worked out real well, there.

[nonperson]

99. +1

This nation is always ready to declare war as if war is always the answer. Because this is a gun nut nation.

[perimedik]

84. Shaking My Head...

Easy access to guns huh?
Legal or Not

Maybe, do a little research on the requirements for a NYS pistol license, the requirements for storage etc in NYS and NYC region...

Would you rather have them getting acid bought from hardware stores sprayed in their faces (happens in England)
Or stabbed repeatedly, hit in the head with hammers. All it does is keep criminals armed and honest citizens disarmed.

Yes a gun was used in a horrific murders, my prayer go out to the souls and the families.
What you fail to see is that regardless of the "control" issued they would still commit the crime.

think for a moment and concider if the pharmacist or patrons had been armed?

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2011/06/21/news/doc4dfff9bebeb21267654407.txt

[The1lifer]

131. Guns

If guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. This country was founded on the ideas of freedom. We defended the red coats with guns. We have to realize guns are not all baby killing daughter raping drug dealing crooks.
Think about that

[nonperson]

23. I'm not privy to an ongoing investigation

How would I or anyone but the police conducting the investigation know how the shooter got his hands on a gun?

If you find out first please share.

[slackmaster]

35. You're the one who cited a specific incident as being partly a result of guns being legal

The burden of proof is on you.

[nonperson]

57. No you asked me for specific proof of facts pertaining to the gun in this case

Reports today say this animal (a word people love to throw around when a suspect is black but a word that somehow hasn't been used yet in relation to this suspect ((I wonder why)) was a LICENSED GUN OWNER:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/nyregion/police-question-man-in-pharmacy-killings-on-long-island.html?scp=2&sq=drug%20store%20suspect&st=cse

Mr. Laffer’s name caught the prosecutor’s attention because he lived in Medford and previously filled hydrocodone prescriptions at Haven Drugs, the official said, adding that the office also learned that Mr. Laffer had a pistol permit. The official said Ms. Brady had also filled oxycodone prescriptions, though there was no evidence she had ever filled them at Haven Drugs.

So much for all the bullshit that gun owners are some kind of super-citizens that are more "law-abiding" than the rest of us nobodies.

[slackmaster]

61. Your broad-brush accusation of racism and your "super-citizens" straw man have convinced me...

...that you are not interested in having a serious discussion here.

Good bye.

[nonperson]

62. Racism? Really?

Gun owners are a "race" now?

OMG.

That's why I use the term that I use but I can't use here because it gets my posts deleted because you big tough gun owners go whining to the mods.

:)

"Racism"?!

:rofl:

[Straw Man]

79. No -- "ACCUSATION of racism"

Which is what you did right here:

Reports today say this animal (a word people love to throw around when a suspect is black but a word that somehow hasn't been used yet in relation to this suspect ((I wonder why)) was a LICENSED GUN OWNER

Remember?

And then you said this ...

So much for all the bullshit that gun owners are some kind of super-citizens that are more "law-abiding" than the rest of us nobodies.

... which is a great big straw man because no one claims that crimes have never been committed by permit holders (not "gun owners," which is another class altogether); however, permit holders are statistically less likely to break the law than the general public is.

Just stick with the laughing smiley; it's more your rhetorical speed.

[nonperson]

100. Asking why the racists who always call minorities who commit horrible crimes "animals"

Is quite different from being one of those racists who just can't wait to call minority criminals "animals" but can somehow never find the way to categorize white criminals in the same way.

[Straw Man]

116. Who in this conversation has done that? Answer: no one.

Yes, racism does exist. But why have you chosen to bring the issue into a discussion where it is totally irrelevant? It wouldn't be to cast aspersions, would it?

[nonperson]

63. Speaking of "strawmen"

Nice playing a counterfeit race card to avoid discussing the fact that the shooter had a permit for his handgun.

Talk about not wanting to have a serious discussion.

:rofl:

[spin]

15. How do you plan to make guns illegal in the United States ...

There are at least 300,000,000 firearms in civilian hands.

Making drugs illegal didn't work worth a shit, why would making guns illegal work better?

I suggest we legalize many currently illegal drugs and we still allow civilian gun ownership.

[nonperson]

19. Mother of Victim in Long Island Pharmacy Murder Learns News After Returning from Vacation

A heartbreaking report from the local FOX station:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/21/report-alleged-new-york-pharmacy-killer-executed-victims-without-demands/

Mother of Victim in Long Island Pharmacy Murder Learns News After Returning from Vacation

Published June 22, 2011

The family of one of the victims of the horrific Long Island pharmacy Father’s Day murder spoke out yesterday and vowed vengeance against the bearded gunman that police are still looking for.

Pat Taccetta, the mother of 33-year-old victim Jamie Taccetta, hadn’t found out about her daughter’s death until returning from vacation late Monday night, the New York Post reports.

...snip...

The high school student was not supposed to be working Sunday, but Nejia volunteered to cover Father's Day for an older adult male co-worker who has kids.
Ferguson and Nejia were standing behind the counter when the killer opened a door to the enclosed area where the two were standing. The nervous and scrawny drug addict was looking for his drug of choice: oxycodone.

Oxycontin is the very powerful time released version of the generic synthetic narcotic Oxycodone.

[Katya Mullethov]

30. That's a pretty good plan

It's crazy enough ,that it just might work .

[nonperson]

34. Have you ever posted a reply in the wrong place?

:blush:

[slackmaster]

36. Why don't you answer the question? Do you have a plan?

Or are you just ranting impotently about a situation you don't like but have no power to control?

[nonperson]

38. I already answered your question

How do we make anything illegal? How do we make drugs illegal? Make guns illegal.

At least people only shoot themselves with drugs, not you.

[slackmaster]

40. Your plan is a little short on details.

Make guns illegal.

Your plan reminds me of the phrase "Pulu Si Bagumba."

[nonperson]

45. Amnesty period to hand them in

Then it's illegal to possess a firearm. Get caught get arrested with mandatory sentences for succeeding violations. You know, like they do with drugs now so people get firearms and murder people to get drugs.

[Straw Man]

49. You know who WON'T hand them in, right?

Career criminals and hardcore Sovereign Citizen types. Just the people you want to leave armed when you disarm everybody else.

[Common Sense Party]

53. I won't hand mine in. No one has the right to disarm me.

It is our duty to disobey unjust laws.

[slackmaster]

60. Unconstitutional

Fourth Amendment.

[nonperson]

64. The fourth amendment has more than gun rights in it

If you're so concerned about preserving the fourth amendment why are you only fighting for one small part of it while the rest of the rights guaranteed therein have been shredded?

Gun owners are one issue zealots just like right to lifers.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/opinion/23shipler.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212
Op-Ed Contributor
Free to Search and Seize

By DAVID K. SHIPLER
Published: June 22, 2011
Chevy Chase, Md.

THIS spring was a rough season for the Fourth Amendment. The Obama administration petitioned the Supreme Court to allow GPS tracking of vehicles without judicial permission. The Supreme Court ruled that the police could break into a house without a search warrant if, after knocking and announcing themselves, they heard what sounded like evidence being destroyed. Then it refused to see a Fourth Amendment violation where a citizen was jailed for 16 days on the false pretext that he was being held as a material witness to a crime.

In addition, Congress renewed Patriot Act provisions on enhanced surveillance powers until 2015, and the F.B.I. expanded agents’ authority to comb databases, follow people and rummage through their trash even if they are not suspected of a crime.

None of these are landmark decisions. But together they further erode the privilege of privacy that was championed by Congress and the courts in the mid-to-late-20th century, when the Fourth Amendment’s warrant requirement was applied to the states, unconstitutionally seized evidence was ruled inadmissible in state trials, and privacy laws were enacted following revelations in the 1970s of domestic spying on antiwar and civil rights groups.

For over a decade now, the government has tried to make us more secure by chipping away at the one provision of the Bill of Rights that pivots on the word “secure” — the Fourth Amendment’s guarantee of “the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures.”

[one-eyed fat man]

67. Oddly enough, anti-gun zealots

Lovingliy embrace and lavishly sing the praises of the 'Patriot Act' when it comes to using it against people they hate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5653382&mesg_id=5653382

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5938890&mesg_id=5938890

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=227837&mesg_id=227837

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=424899&mesg_id=424899



hippo crate

[nonperson]

69. WOW that's absolutely mindboggling

Zealots empowering zealots to stop zealots from arming zealots.

You can't spell "sleaze" without Z-E-A-L.

[gejohnston]

81. funny thing you should be mentioning that

You know those liberals who love Bush's watch list today? Eight years ago, they were dissing it because it had no terror suspects on it. Try again?

[nonperson]

86. I don't know any liberals who love Bush's watch list today or anytime

Who are they?

[gejohnston]

88. since a couple of pols decided they wanted to add those names to NICS:

Rachel Maddow, Thom Hartmann,the good folks at Think Progress off the top of my head.

[gejohnston]

80. who says any of us supports this? Over generalize much? I think

you need to stop drinking your bong water.

[Katya Mullethov]

44. I got an idea !

Let's put a tiny microphone in every bullet !

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=44381

[nonperson]

47. Guns and drugs

The war on drugs has literally become a war and people can't seem to realize we must remove the guns from the equation by closing down the drug cartels and the DEA the only way there is. Legalize it. That may sound crazy but what we have now is insanity so what's the difference? Guns and drugs and wars on drugs aren't working. Time to try a different insanity and see how it works out.

[Katya Mullethov]

54. Trade one form of madness for another ! Banner idea !

Except it's the same type of insanity . I wouldn't call it madness , more a facet of human nature .

The war on drugs has been a war on everyone for as long as I can remember . A relatively small group of of ignorant but vocal bigotted hens squawking for someone else to visit violence upon "them" . And there will always be plenty of authoritarians that are more than happy to do it FOR THEM , for a fee . The ATF & DEA are but incestuous twins suckling bile from opposite but similar leathr'n teats .

I have studied these wacky guys for more than 30 years and well versed in their tactics , motives and propaganda . When it gets down to the brass tacks there is little difference between Harry Anslinger , Richard Nixon , and you . A deep seated sense of righteous indignation, ignorance , bigoted hatred , and the inability to accept that freedom is for other people too .

I think I know what it means and what it costs to be free and it sucks sometimes having to trust and tolerate other people . But it's just one small aspect of human nature that has brought us to this single page on the internet . I will not be disarmed , told what I can grow in my garden , where I can hide my sausage ,or how much dunder to put in the rum .

That being said , I cannot fathom how we could make guns illegal and confiscate them , not within a generation or two . But I do know how to make money off of them in the meantime . Would you like to hear my plan ?

[nonperson]

65. The current human condition is a choice between one madness or another

.

[Katya Mullethov]

72. Nor will you dictate my choices

You don't wanna hear my plan , do ya ?

[nonperson]

89. If you wanted me to hear your plan you would have said it already

Do you want to play games?

[Katya Mullethov]

115. Exactly ! bread and games

Panem et Circenses

It is important to note that I know of no way to make them illegal and confiscate them within a couple generations , but I do know how to make money on it .

First thing one needs are faithful political appointees in the upper orbits of power in the US government . Owning the DOJ would be critical .

Then we'd identify or create or identify a crisis we created and capitalize on it , seize it , and not let it go to waste . Piles of dead bodies and "broken eggs" to point at would be useful . The War on Some Drugs is the perfect franchise for a spin off industry . One important step would be conflating dope smokers AND gun owners AND guns as the fuel feeding terror . This will also obfuscate the fact that that all the fighting is really over your money . The lick spittle press would be more than happy to regurgitate the daily wire feeds that I send out , for years at a time . Here's the best part ...the dope smokers will scream for crime gun owner's necks while the gun rights crew will want all the dopers thrown in jail . Dividing them up by their own selfish ignorance and bigotry is key .

It is still a little rough around the edges , but it is crazy enough it just might work . But I wouldnt let the ATF handle any of the firearms . They always get caught .

[The1lifer]

132. Truth

What i feel is that most (i say most not all) gun owners wouldnt partake in drugging it up. Ymmv

[lawodevolution]

16. So you want to limit the right of self defense and censor a part of my culture to make your drugs

legal? If you keep that stupidity up you will never succeed in making drugs legal. That's why you should be pro gun and pro legalization.

[nonperson]

17. This addict was after Oxycontin and supposedly left the pharmacy with a backpack full

After murdering four people in cold blood.

They think they have the son-of-a-bitch now:

http://www.longislandpress.com/2011/06/22/reports-medford-pharmacy-shooter-david-laffer-arrested/

Reports: David Laffer Arrested in Medford Pharmacy Shooting

By Timothy Bolger and Jim Mancari on June 22nd, 2011

Multiple local news outlets are reporting that 33-year-old David Laffer has been taken in handcuffs out of his Medford home Wednesday morning and that he is the gunman wanted for killing four people at a pharmacy about a mile from the home three days ago.

Laffer and his wife were reportedly taken into custody after up to 40 Suffolk County police officers swarmed a house on Pitchpine Place. Authorities are neither confirming the names of those arrested nor that they are linked to the Father’s Day massacre at Haven Drugs pharmacy.

“I was shocked,” said a neighbor, Trish Bohlert. “Something must have made him snap.”

The reports first came during a memorial service three days after a robber killed four people at the pharmacy on Southaven Avenue 20 minutes after the shop opened 10 a.m. Sunday. The suspect made off with a backpack full of prescription medication, although it was not immediately clear what kind.

Although this report says it's unclear what drugs this bastard thought were worth four lives I heard reports that claimed it was Oxycontin. I'll try to find corroboration online.

[ergot]

18. drugs are illegal, yet there's a "drug store" openly operating out there?

How very strange.

[nonperson]

24. An Oxycontin oxymoron

Strange indeed.

[nonperson]

20. The worst part is we're exporting our gun/drug insanity!

With the same results but on a larger scale:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4892832

[Katya Mullethov]

29. Getting pretty hot

" This thread is locked or archived , you can't reply to it ."

[rl6214]

25. "It's past time to make guns illegal and drugs legal."

Stoopid post of the day.

They were in a pharmacy, the drugs ARE legal.

Besides, guns are protected by the 2A, drugs are not.

Thanks for reposting this one though, we had forgotten about the other thread.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

37. No, the drugs he stole continued to be legal

His possession of them was illegal.

[nonperson]

39. Funny, I read stories about illegal prescription drugs all the time

They're referred to as illegal prescription medications. What would you rather call them? Off label use?

:rofl:

[slackmaster]

59. That's just imprecise writing

The drugs themselves aren't going to be charged with a crime or incarcerated.

[rl6214]

41. Nonperson, that about sums it up I would think

"Tell me again why you gun nuts"

[nonperson]

56. So please tell me then

With the first and fourth amendments under full assault why is it the gun crowd is only interested in 2a?

[gejohnston]

104. You base that on what?

[gejohnston]

26. I have a better idea

Since I have yet to see a logical or rational argument from any anti. I fail to see how the average target shooter, hunter, or a farmer in Montana contributes anything to gun violence, why should we pay or the social costs? The cost should be put on those who create the demand, the ones that gives the gangs the money to buy the guns on the black market before using them to settle business disputes.
Therefore:
a tax on all bongs and pipes to pay for medical and social costs
head shops should be held liable for the crimes of their customers and taxed accordingly

[nonperson]

32. Why are you asking for what we already have?

"a tax on all bongs and pipes to pay for medical and social costs
head shops should be held liable for the crimes of their customers and taxed accordingly"

We've got that already. The tax is administered by the "Justice" Department, enforced by the police, adjudicated by the courts, and collected in a prison system with a population that dwarfs the rest of the world.

Oh, and let's not forget the tax in responding to all the drug related gun violence.

[gejohnston]

42. Very simple,

pipes and bongs are legal. Those should be taxed heavier. They should have serial numbers and be registered. Those who contribute to the problem should pay for it, not me. I do not do drugs, sell drugs, do not sell guns to drug dealers, why should I pay for the crime? That is what your post says. You expect a farmer in Wyoming, a target shooter, a collector, are a working class woman who has to go through a shitty part of town to work to pay for crimes they do not commit and for problems they do not contribute to.
I don't care how you feel about guns or gun owners. You will think what you will. I will say that out of the illogical and bigoted arguments that I have seen by other antis, I will give yours an A or originality.

One more thing, while Europe does have fewer murders and gun related violence, they also tend to be drug related. The main difference is they tend to use machine guns more than here. Still mostly pistols, just more machine guns.

[nonperson]

92. So by your own logic

Gun owners and manufacturers should pay for all gun related costs to society. ALL of them. Because I don't want to pay for crimes I did not commit or problems I don't contribute to either.

And I don't give a shit about what firearms they use in Europe. And I don't give a shit about your grades either.

There is one thing I'd like to know though. Tell me, how can an anti-gun argument be considered racist?

[gejohnston]

95. only the gun owners that sell on the black market

I don't see FFL holders killing each other over market share, so it is hardly the same thing.


I have to look at the context of the questions. The southern states had stricter gun laws than the rest of the US or Europe at that time. Many have been repealed during the civil rights era. Some still remain like North Carolina's handgun law. The point of them were to disarm blacks and poor and working class whites, while the Klan and anti union thugs was still allowed to keep theirs. That is origin of most of the century old laws being repealed now is just that. Florida banned open carry in 1893 because the sight of armed black migrant workers scared the shit of of white society. The one pre civil rights era white person that was prosecuted under the Florida law took it to the state supreme court. His conviction was over turned because “The Act was passed for the purpose of disarming negro laborers. … was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied.” Watson v. Stone (1941).
The may issue CCW systems in NYC and urban counties of California have everything to do with race and class and nothing to do with valid need.

[nonperson]

97. No, ALL gun owners and manufacturers

The guy who robbed the Long Island pharmacy and murdered four innocent people was a licensed gun owner.

ALL gun owners and manufacturers are responsible and ALL those who through their attitudes or outright support enable this insane "War on Drugs" for their own profit and through their own authoritarian nature.

[gejohnston]

103. you are no less authoritarian

just like Rachel Maddow is no less hypocritical for being against Bush's list before she was for it.

[nonperson]

105. No, I'm simply hoisting you by your own petard

But you can't recognize that.

What you propose for drug users should be applied to gun owners so you can get the idea.

[gejohnston]

106. It is already applied to gun owners, if you were ever to look up the laws

But you were the one that started the other people should pay for my mess. At least, that is how some of us, including me, took it. You started crying authoritarian when one eye and I threw it back in your face.

[nonperson]

107. Gun owners are not in any way restricted like pot users

Even though the mess you're responsible for is orders of magnitude greater than anything pot smokers are responsible for.

You are control freaks who want a right to carry deadly weapons while railing against use of a harmless, beneficial, natural organic substance.

[gejohnston]

110. I think you mistake me for someone else

I am not railing for the drug war. I think it should be legalized. How is the right to carry have anything to do with control? People who carry have no desire to control what you do, only the right to control a situation that could be detrimental to them. By your logic, a woman who carries because she knows that the restraining order that she put on her abusive ex husband don't mean shit, is a control freak looking to blow an innocent person away. In may issue states like New York, she would not get a permit unless she is white and rich. Your logic sucks.
Again, I do not give money do drug dealers
I do not sell guns to criminals esp drug gangs
I don't even live in an urban area
Please explain to me how in the hell I am responsible for any carnage?

[nonperson]

114. There are good reasons to carry as you mention

But the implicit threat of someone who has a gun against someone without a gun is "I'll shoot you if I have to" with the gun owner in the sole position of determining if and when he or she has to. I don't trust you or anyone with a gun. And please don't tell me no one has the desire to control what I do. For shit sake, this is America. Everyone here wants to control what everyone else does. It's the national fucking pastime.

ALL of you people need to chill the fuck out. Stop living vicariously through your weapon collection. You may not be personally responsible for any carnage but when the need for carnage arises guns make the task far easier for the gun owner and unfortunately far easier for the victims too. Whether at a political rally outside a grocery store in Tucson or inside a tiny drug store on Long Island on a previously quiet Sunday morning.

Please don't tell me how gun owners are more trustworthy or honest or whatever bullshit Boy Scout motto trait you want to attach to them. Gun owners are people. People are capable of all manner of behavioral problems and terrible acts that you can read about in the news every day. No one is immune. We're all cast with the same flaws and those flaws have a bad habit of appearing at the worst times. You're no different just because you qualified for a gun permit. No one is.

[gejohnston]

117. wrong again.

But the implicit threat of someone who has a gun against someone without a gun is "I'll shoot you if I have to"
No it is not. How you get that, I have no idea. If the gun is concealed, there is no statement of anything. It sounds like you have been doing too much speed and are becoming paranoid.
Let me be really blunt and politically incorrect. O'Keefe made fake videos to take down ACORN. Drug dealers murder them and threaten their families with violence. My wife was working to help set up a neighborhood watch in an area infested with drug dealers who preyed on and oppressed the neighborhood. One day the cops came by my house and told us that her and some other ACORN workers were targeted by the dealers.
So, when I read about drug dealers and gangsters killing each other, I don't fucking care. Just another public service homicide. There is no place in civilized society for greedy sociopaths. My heart goes out to their innocent family members, but not them. If an innocent get hit, I mourn for them. But the gangsters themselves, they chose the life with open eyes.

[nonperson]

118. Bullshit

If you're carrying a firearm whether concealed or not you have the ability to shoot me and if I'm unarmed I don't have the ability to shoot back.

PS I don't "do speed" or any other illicit drugs. I'm waiting for our asshole governor Christie to finally implement the Compassionate Use Act. It's been over eighteen months and he can't seem to figure out how to implement it. He'll probably sign a concealed carry law before implementing the law regarding the Compassionate Use Act.

PPS If drugs were legal you wouldn't have to worry about drug dealers killing themselves, you, or ACORN.

PPPS Guns are legal and drugs aren't so those dealers can make a fortune off of the War on Drugs while easily obtaining firearms to shoot each other, you, and ACORN.

When will you people wake up?

[Straw Man]

120. More bullshit.

If you're carrying a firearm whether concealed or not you have the ability to shoot me and if I'm unarmed I don't have the ability to shoot back.

And if you have hands, you have the ability to strangle me. But why would you do that? I'm certainly not going to call for pre-emptive amputation.

PPPS Guns are legal and drugs aren't so those dealers can make a fortune off of the War on Drugs while easily obtaining firearms to shoot each other, you, and ACORN.

Find me a drug dealer whose firearm is legally owned, and I'll give you a gold star and a pat on the head.

When will you people wake up?

I'm wide awake and awaiting some plausible arguments. In principle, I am in favor of legalization, but I think that addicts should be subject to certain restrictions, such as on driving and firearms ownership. I see no reason to restrict either one for non-addicts with no criminal history.

[nonperson]

122. You compare bare hands with firearms

If bare hands are equal to firearms then why do you need firearms?

It's just more of your gun culture bullshit.

[Straw Man]

124. Without intention, neither one is dangerous.

With intention, either one can be, but obviously one is more dangerous than the other. The key words are with intention.

I never said bare hands and firearms were equal; I made an analogy. Many cultures use them.

You start from a basic assumption of murderous intent and use that to justify universal disarmament. I question your basic assumption.

[nonperson]

126. I don't start with any assumption

If you're carrying a gun and I'm not you're at a decided advantage and I don't trust ANYONE with that type of advantage.

If carry permits are issued to anyone they should be issued to everyone. We all have hands, right?

[Straw Man]

128. Oh, but you do.

If you're carrying a gun and I'm not you're at a decided advantage and I don't trust ANYONE with that type of advantage.

Mistrust is an assumption of bad intent.

If carry permits are issued to anyone they should be issued to everyone. We all have hands, right?

OK -- now you're arguing for "Constitutional carry," such as Vermont and Arizona have. I think we just went through the looking glass ...

Of course, Federal law still prohibits felons and the mentally ill from owning firearms. Would you have a problem with that?

[Straw Man]

119. On bullshit.

Please don't tell me how gun owners are more trustworthy or honest or whatever bullshit Boy Scout motto trait you want to attach to them.

It's a statistic. You could look it up.

[nonperson]

121. "There are three kinds of lies:

Lies, damn lies, and statistics."
- Mark Twain

Look it up.

[Straw Man]

123. So ...

... are we taking statistics completely off the table for all future discussions? Are you sure you want to do that?

Mark Twain was a humorist. Look it up.

[nonperson]

125. We're taking YOUR statistics off the table

You know, your gun culture statistics that support more gun culture.

BTW, how does the case in point fit into your "statistics"?

[friendly_iconoclast]

127. "We" are doing no such thing. You are- apparently because they don't support your case

This crime is an example of a permit holder committing a crime with a gun. No one here has denied that it happened, and has happened

before with with other permit holders.



What I and others claim, with documented examples from the states of Florida and Texas, is that it's an extremely rare

event. The state of Florida, IIRC, has recalled less than 0.01% of the permits it has issued for firearm-related crimes committed

by permit holders.


You are free to have and express your opinions.You are free to not like guns. You are free to not own or carry one if you don't want

to, and express yourself accordingly.


What you are not free to do is own your own facts, or to deny verifiable reality. Given the sheer volume of denial you

have posted here on the subject, I'd say you've been dealt with rather gently...

[Straw Man]

129. That's rather selective of you.

So statistics are only OK when they support YOUR agenda? How can you claim to be arguing in good faith? If you are making no such claim, forgive my assumptions.

[Glassunion]

51. "Guns are legal. Drugs are not. The inevitable result?"

Pop Tarts.

[Kolesar]

68. wow, you are smart!

[gejohnston]

52. other side of the coin, and entertainment for both sides

Few years old, but I couldn't resist.

(NEWSER) – Sarah Palin's sister-in-law has been arrested on suspicion of burglary, the Anchorage Daily News reports. Diana Palin—half-sister of Sarah Palin's husband Todd—is accused of breaking into the same house in Wasilla, Alaska twice in one week to steal money. She faces two counts of felony burglary and misdemeanor theft and trespass charges.
A Wasilla homeowner says he hid in a bathroom with a gun when an unfamiliar car pulled into his driveway. Diana Palin got out, entered his home, and made straight for the cabinet where he keeps his cash, said the homeowner, who detained her until police arrived. Palin may also face child endangerment charges for taking her 4-year-old daughter with her.

http://www.newser.com/story/55270/palins-sister-in-law-arrested-for-burglary.html

[nonperson]

70. LOLOLZZZ!!!1!!!!

Maybe this is why Sarah dropped out of her bus tour.

[nonperson]

71. Palin may also face child endangerment charges for taking her 4-year-old daughter with her.

Trig's cousin???!

Reminds me of how Sarah dragged her grandson around on tour.

So it's a sort of a Palin kind of, you know, gotcha sorta thing, to bring the kids along and get them started on the right foot, you betcha'.

[gejohnston]

111. Yes Trig's cousin

I remember reading that as soon as the Secret Service moved out, Alaska state police busted Levi's parents.

[MicaelS]

73. Let's examine the facts...

(1) Alcohol Prohibition was a failure, people want to drink, and all it did was create a new class of super criminals.

(2) Drug Prohibition is a failure, people want to use drugs, all it did was create a new class of super criminals.

Given the facts of 1 and 2, what make you think Gun Prohibition will be a success?

[friendly_iconoclast]

74. Damn you and your logic! Don't you realize GUNS ARE BAD?

And a gun prohibitionists strength is as the strength of ten, because their hearts are pure and their cause is just?

It'll totally work. We just have to trust them, because they're here to help us...

[spin]

82. Gun prohibition would lead to gun smuggling from foreign countries ...

and instead of having the semi-auto evil looking black rifles called "assault weapons" we would have real fully automatic military assault rifles readily available on the street and dirt cheap.

[Straw Man]

83. Kalashnikov's revenge.

That smug bastard. "Hero of Socialist Labour" indeed. Cold War ghosts: I'm getting a "Boys From Brazil" vibe...

[The1lifer]

133. Logic

I think this is the logic most politicians have. Its like playing devils advocate. Sometime its wrong to be right. Otoh sometimes its right to me wrong yomv

[Callisto32]

108. Or just make the drugs legal....

why you always gotta ban something eh?

[The1lifer]

130. Safe at home and on the road

Guns are what keep us safe. They take perps off the streets. 49 states now have concealed carry. Coincidence? Nope