Chamber Loaded Indicator.

[beevul]

Before I get started, let me emphasise that I believe in gun safety, especially the first 2 rules:

1. Treat every gun with the respect due a loaded gun.

2. Watch that muzzle!!

That being said, I believe discussion is in order about chamber loaded indicators on handguns. Should they be required? If so, why? If so, how should they indicate that the chamber is loaded? How obvious should they be to the end user? Should the end user be responsible for knowing that they are there or how they work?


I have a couple examples of chamber loaded indicators for examination.

The first is the springfielld XD model handgun.


"The chamber loaded indicator is a small metal bar whose front edge is pushed upward above the slide's top when a round is chambered."

http://www.sportshooter.com/guns/guns_xd.htm


The second is my Beretta 96FS. It has the same chamber loaded indicator(CLI) as the one in question in the suit against Beretta.






This is a photo of the ejector (the small thing that runs left to right in the photo, with a rounded end on the right and a squared end on the left). It ejects spent shells once fired. The end on the left that appears to be squared also acts as the CLI. When a shell is chambered, the ejector protrudes out the side of the gun a small amount.



This is a photo of the CLI with a round chambered(with a once fired/polished brass in the chamber for safety while we shot the photos).




This is a photo of the CLI on an empty chamber. I know this photo sucks...I'm machinist, not a photographer. The ejector lies flush with the surface of the gun when the chamber is empty.


To the naked eye, both types of CLI are obvious if one knows what to look or feel for.

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. Something obvious

If you are going to do it, it should clearly say LOADED -- To Unload, etc.

Perhaps write it in RED.

That said, people stupid enough to point guns at others accidentally are still going to do so a bunch.

[Township75]

2. My Walther P99 has a nice indicator....

in which a little bit of red is visible on the very rear of the side of the slide when it is chambered. Additionally, there is a small piece of metal that sticks out slightly on the rear of the slide too when it is chambered.

With that said, I am not in favor of mandatory indicators. Every time someone loser shoots himself or another accidently, new laws on how much bigger/brighter or whatever the indicator should will be proposed as the solution.

The fact is, the gun is always loaded, even when it isn't. If someone doesn't have the brains to follow that rule, no mechanical device can save him or those near him. He is to be shunned and left to eventual death at his own stupidity.

[MrSandman]

3. My PPK/S has one

a little nub that sticks out the back of the slide. The only real use I put it to is to feel while in my holster to insure that the chamber is loaded.

When I unholster, I count rounds after visually checking the chamber. If I pick the weapon up, even if it has been in the safe, away from all ammo, and the CLI indicates empty, I rack the slide and visually check.

My point is that a CLI is not a substitute for safe gun handling and to make them mandatory is a bad policy because a CLI would not help improve gun handling practice.

[jhfenton]

4. CLI's should not be required by law

Newer Glocks have a tactile chamber-loaded indicator extractor as well. When there is a cartridge in the chamber, the extractor sticks out on the right side of the slide. You can see it or feel it with your finger. I tend to ignore it, however, and double-check to make sure the firearm is in the condition I want it to be.

CLI's will just make people lazy about the basic safety rules. Not to mention, with some very small concealed carry weapons, it might be difficult to implement a CLI. As an example, Kel-tec even eliminated the slide-lock on its P-3AT to keep the size down. I wouldn't want to see design dictated by a pointless, feel-good requirement.

[Doogie]

5. Gotta agree

Right now, I have all older model handguns, no CLI. As stated above, it's just another unnecessary part. If you follow rule 1, "Treat every gun as if loaded", you don't need a CLI

As the salesman at the Kittery trading post said to me last week, as I was buying a *revolver* that actually has a safety!?!? (what a pain in the butt), "The more they idiot-proof things, the quicker there'll be better idiots"

[FatSlob]

6. No way!

What is the make/model?

[alwynsw]

8. Kittery Trading Post

Fond memories. I bought my first Weatherby there when I was stationed at Pease AFB across the river.

[FatSlob]

7. I always treat mine like it is loaded,

so a "LCI" would do me no good.

[alwynsw]

9. Why add what you already have?

First things first: CLI's are necessarily mechanical. Mechanical things sometimes malfunction and are therefore untrustworthy.

What CLI do we already have? Simply the best one ever invented: the Mark 1 Eyeball.

To add to the chorus, let the idiots who treat any gun as though it's unloaded compete for a Darwin Award.

In my younger days, I read everything Louis L'Amour wrote. I still remember a line from one of his books, although I don't remember which book: ...if somebody picks it up they'll say that's John's gun and it's loaded. I treat 'em all like John's gun.

[MrSandman]

12. Like the Magazine disconnect

I sold the only weapon I ever had with one of those, I just knew it would break(not fire) at the most inopportune time. I also study Murphy.

[jhfenton]

21. Magazine Disconnects are evil

I would never carry a defensive gun with a magazine disconnect. God forbid I ever need to use my sidearm defensively, I wouldn't want to disable the firearm when I drop a mag to reload.

A magazine disconnect would be alright in a target pistol.

[alwynsw]

25. Agreed. They are evil things.

[slackmaster]

10. According to the official operator's manual for the Walther P.38...

The purpose of the chamber-loaded indicator is to provide assurance that the gun IS loaded and ready to fire.

You can check the position of the safety lever, hammer, and CLI with your thumb. If all three are in their respective proper positions you can be pretty sure the gun will fire when you pull the trigger. The CLI eliminates the need to rack the action, which makes noise and potentially spills a good unfired round.

IMO any other application for the CLI or any implication that it's some kind of "safety feature" constitutes a perversion of its originally intended function.

[jhfenton]

11. Good point

They are chamber-loaded indicators, not chamber-unloaded indicators. Nothing short of a visual, and preferably physical, inspection of the chamber is sufficient to verify a weapon is unloaded.

[MrSandman]

26. I was supposed to

Read the manual? My most recent handgun purchase had a 12 page manual with one page dedicated to the purchased handgun. The rest was in German or was watered down safety stuff for the lawyers. At least it doesn't have that ugly writing on the side about 230 grains of metal exiting the barrel at a high velocity.

CLI's, magazine disconnects, passive safeties; soon it will take an accident to fire a weapon.

[Withergyld]

13. The GAO has studied CLI's and child safety devices

Near the end of the study is the following: (bottom of page 34)
"There are potential problems in implementing any requirement for firearms to be equipped with these safety devices. First, there may be technological difficulties to overcome in designing child-proof safeties and loading indicators for the myriad firearms on the market. In addition, there arc possible logistical difficulties:

l loading indicator devices would require that users (including unintended users, such as adolescents) be educated to understand their use and to recognize the indication that the firearms were loaded;
. there are possible objections to the desirability of having onlookers be able to readily judge if a firearm is loaded (for example, if a weapon is being used for protection); and
. this type of child-proof safety would only prevent very young children from firing the gun and would likely not be effective against use by older children or adolescents.
<snip>
While over 4 million firearms are manufactured in the United States each year, there are an estimated 200 million firearms already in the market. Approximately 50 percent of US. households report owning one or more firearms. This represents an enormous pool of weapons that would not be affected by design modifications. Furthermore, firearms, unlike many consumer products, have a long period of use. It is not uncommon for firearms to be passed from one generation to the next, so it cannot be expected that within a decade, for example, the majority of old-style firearms would be out of use. To affect this pool of weapons, owners would have to be required to modify all their firearms, to equip them with the two safety devices.
<snip>
We know of no ready replacements on the market for a loading indicator. The necessary alternative is proper education in the use and handling of firearms. All users need to be trained to immediately inspect a weapon to determine if it is loaded before handling it further. As we stated in chapter 2, a majority of the accidents we examined involved some violation of safe gun-handling standards. Unfortunately, as our research has shown, many fatal accidents involve users who are not the owners of the firearms. Thus, firearm training aimed at owners will not prevent many of these accidents if others are allowed access to a loaded weapon."
http://161.203.16.4/d20t9/143619.pdf

It is interesting to note that most accidents could have been prevented by following the rules of safe firearm handling. Also they note that untrained individuals may not recognize/understand what the loading indicator is telling them. There are currently ~280 million firearms in the US, who is going to pay for retrofitting these weapons already in circulation?

[MrSandman]

14. ROFL

Did you see on p. 34: "... might take the "fun" out of such games as Russian Roulette."

Why don't we just outlaw gambling?

How many of the accidental shootings would have happened with safe firearms handling? I have heard of none. I am talking of shootings, not injuries due to barrel/chamber explosions.

[Withergyld]

16. I saw that

But had to pick four paragraphs so I wouldn't run afoul of the coptright police (even though it is a Gov't study and most likely not copyrighted)

I'm still trying to figure out how a CLI would work on a revolver:
Is there one indicator for each chamber in the cylinder?
How would it be visible when that chamber is in line with the barrel?
Would it indicate the difference between a fired and unfired cartridge?

[MrSandman]

17. Maybe a mirror

You look down the barrel from the front to see if a bullet is in line w/ barrel. Warning about .38 wadcutters in a .357<sarcasm off>

[alwynsw]

19. Couldn't have a mirror

The NTSB would get involved. Next thing you know you'd have to have an extension and convex "blind spot eliminators" for barrels ove, say, 7". Then you'd have the kids adding streamers. What next? Holster beepers?

Personally, I think the reflection off hte chrome would be distracting.

WWBBD?

[MrSandman]

22. BB?

Bubba?

WWJMBD?

[jhfenton]

23. What Would Bob Barker Do?

He would have his pets spayed and neutered!

[beevul]

29. "What would Brian Boytano do if he were here right now?!"

What would Brian Boytano do if he were here right now?!

:evilgrin:

[slackmaster]

20. A spring plunger in the frame next to the hammer would work

It would have to be beveled on the front so the heads of cartridge cases could slide onto and off of it as the cylinder turns.

Would it indicate the difference between a fired and unfired cartridge?

No, but in principle the same problem exists in semiautos. Fired cases don't always eject because subsonic rounds often don't have enough blowback to operate the action. A dud round will stay in the chamber too - That may or may not fire next time the hammer hits it. So a CLI can never be relied on to be sure your gun is ready to fire, much less be sure that it is not.

[Fescue4u]

15. They should be encouraged but not required

While in theory they sound wonderful, the reality is that they are not THAT useful.

Personally, I never trust them anyway, and always double check the chamber.

As for accidents..well they are accident. Generally these occur these occur when people are acting foolish and not thinking. If they are thinking enough to look at a loaded chamber indicator, they are proably thinking enough to NOT point the gun at someone and pull the trigger.

If anyone foolish enough to be pulling the trigger while pointing the gun at something/someone, its highly unlikely they checked the indicator first.

[DonP]

18. Rule No. 1

"All guns are always loaded"

Loaded chamber indicators are a nice little add-on but like other mechanical safeties, my concern is that they can become a crutch for some folks.

Just my .02

[Hammie]

24. They should not be required

Rule #1: Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.

When I want to verify that a firearm is unloaded, I drop the magazine and cycle the action and then visually inspect the chamber for the presence of a cartridge. If I then hand it to you and you hand it back to me, I do the same drill all over again. If I put it in my safe, and then take it back out the next day. You got it. drop the mag and cycle the action and visually inspect chamber. And then I still watch my muzzle and keep my finger out of the trigger guard.


No negligent discharges for me.

[GRClarkesq]

27. The CLI is more marketing than safety device

Mfgs. hace to find ways to differentiate their products in a saturated market.

Buy one if you want one but should not be required.

[MrSandman]

28. Had my PPK at the range Saturday...

With my trigger finger in index, the extractor noticeably protrudes when a round is cambered...does a gun get extra points for 2 CLI's?

on edit: I did not think of payng attn. to the extractor to this thresad.

The answer to wgether they should be mandatory is still no.