Heroism: Terminal cancer patient, thwarts bank robbery.

[Buzz Clik]

Here's the story:

Woman, 66, tackles alleged bank robber

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla., April 3 (UPI) -- A 66-year-old woman who said she has nothing to lose because of terminal cancer tackled an alleged female bank robber in Florida, police said.

Renee Lee Green, 32, ended up in the Broward County Jail, the South Florida Sun Sentinel reported. She was arrested at the Bank of America branch in Oakland Park.

Green allegedly told police the robbery attempt Friday was just an April Fool's joke, WTVJ-TV in Miami reported. Witnesses said she claimed to have a gun, told customers and employees to get down on the floor and then demanded $10,000.

Helen Dunsford's response was to tackle Green.

"She got on my last nerve," Dunsford told the TV station. "I have cancer, stage 4, and I figured if I'm gonna die it's God will when I die. She's not gonna shoot me."

Mike Jachles, a spokesman for the Broward County Sheriff's Office, said Dunsford held Green until police got to the bank, the Sun Sentinel said. While Jachles described Dunsford as "selfless and brave," he advised other members of the public to focus on what they are witnessing and leave catching robbers to the police.



http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2011/04/03/Woman-66-tackles-alleged-bank-robber/UPI-60841301810752/#ixzz1IT1TCzfW">Read more:

The cancer victim didn't need a weapon of any kind, just courage. Anyone in this forum have the stones to tell her that her choice not to use a firearm is because she's a coward?

[slackmaster]

1. Auto-Unrec for being off topic

:nuke:

[Buzz Clik]

2. Totally on topic! The premise of many threads in the Gungeon...

... is that guns are critical to stop violent crimes.

[PavePusher]

4. No-one has ever claimed they are a panacea for every situation.

Unless you have a cite to the contrary?

[Buzz Clik]

17. It's been stated.

[cleanhippie]

21. Where? By who? It has NEVER been stated.

[slackmaster]

41. Where? By whom?

Burden of proof is on you.

[PavePusher]

61. So people claim.... and can never cite to. Whatever. n/t

[slackmaster]

5. You should have stated that in the OP and linked to examples of it

HTH

[Buzz Clik]

19. Read this. Oh, wait...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=396184&mesg_id=396184

You posted on that thread. You claimed it was flame-bait.

Read the thread and get an eyeful of the company you keep.

[slackmaster]

40. Please explain your point in linking to that thread. I did a search for "violent crime"...

...and it seems the only person who even used the term was the MyrnaLoy, the author of the OP. The word "critical" doesn't appear anywhere in the thread.

Is there a particular response to which you would like to direct my attention?

I called it out as flame bait because it was.

[PavePusher]

92. So, hey....

got any of that "evidence" stuff assembled yet?

[PavePusher]

114. So, 48 hours and no cite to evidence. Wanna play again? n/t

[onehandle]

11. Skinner himself said these type of stories have a place here.

But don't let that stop you...

[slackmaster]

42. Cite?

TIA

[onehandle]

52. No... Well, ok. But only because you asked so nicely.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=437&topic_id=1256

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=437&topic_id=791

Additionally, Skinner's responses here speak volumes and amuse me greatly:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=437&topic_id=1603

[slackmaster]

54. That's about as neutral a position as Skinner could have taken

Neither supportive nor dismissive of using the Guns forum as a dumping ground for "current events" stories, while he did emphasize the usefulness of the forum as a silo for inevitable pro/anti gun arguments.

[PavePusher]

3. Great Human Interest story....

and maybe you missed the whole part about "stage-4 cancer" and "nothing to lose"?

Incredibly brave and selfless act. Not sure how it plays against firearms, but YMMV.

[GreenStormCloud]

6. She was indeed brave, and also very lucky. N/T

[one-eyed fat man]

7. Still true

"The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose." - James A. Baldwin

Sounds like she figured her odds that way too.

"She got on my last nerve," Dunsford told the TV station. "I have cancer, stage 4, and I figured if I'm gonna die it's God will when I die. She's not gonna shoot me."

[GKirk]

8. What kind of a stupid question is that?

"Anyone in this forum have the stones to tell her that her choice not to use a firearm is because she's a coward?"

Is there a way that I can nominate that question as the dumbest of the year?

[cleanhippie]

9. Unrec. 100% pure flamebait.

Anyone in this forum have the stones to tell her that her choice not to use a firearm is because she's a coward?



If that is not flamebait, what is?

[Upton]

10. How ridiculous

reminds of a post a month or so ago from a poster who claimed to have used an iron to thwart a home invasion. Proving therefore, according to the poster's rather dubious logic, that guns were never needed..

The antis and their authoritarian thinking are on the run across the country....obviously they've now been reduced to grasping at straws.

[Buzz Clik]

14. I never stated that guns are never needed.

I am simply refuting the often stated claim that guns are the best (only?) answer. Worse, too many claim that those who choose (yes, choose) not want to carry a firearm are cowards. And, of course, that is bullshit, as this courageous woman and many others have demonstrated.

[rrneck]

18. A gun is the best

but NOT the only tool for self defense.

Produce a link to show consensus among gun owners so support the rest of this bullshit flamebait.

[Buzz Clik]

22. You are always one to quickly change the argument.

Tell you what, you quote me where I said that a "consensus of gun owners so support", and we'll take it from there.

[cleanhippie]

24. No one but YOU is changing the subject. You made a claim about other DU'ers and refuse to support

it with evidence.

[Buzz Clik]

25. About that consensus... quote please?

Or are you just here to be a pain?

[cleanhippie]

29. Dude, YOU made a claim that you refuse to support. Your dishonesty here is disgusting.

[Buzz Clik]

31. I gave the link already.

And you call me a liar?

And you called me a coward in another post.

You have serious, serious issues.

[cleanhippie]

33. You gave nothing but deflection. Link to a single post, if you can. Your dishonesty is disgusting.

[rrneck]

35. Read your own OP.

You challenged "anyone " to call that woman a coward. A general chickenshit flamebait challenge to everyone reading this assumes a consensus. Produce a link to support your assumption or admit you're calling gun owners cowards in the most passive aggressive chickenshit way possible.

[Buzz Clik]

39. That's silly.

But consistent.

[rrneck]

45. "anyone in this forum have the stones..."

If you receive no answer to your question you imply cowardice from silence. Chickenshit flamebait.

Are you still beating your wife?

[cleanhippie]

23. BuzzClick, NO ONE states that guns are the only answer. You are fabricating that claim.

Link to a post where that has been stated. I challenge you to support your dubious and dishonest claim.

[Buzz Clik]

26. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=396184&mesg_id=396184

[cleanhippie]

28. Where? You point to a thread with 300+ replies, yet not a SINGLE post to support your claim.

Fail. Dishonest. Disgusting.

[Buzz Clik]

34. Please. Call me a coward again.

Then call me a liar again.

Is this over-the-top angry aggression typical for you?

[cleanhippie]

36. You are projecting.

complaining of others doing exactly what you yourself are doing.

Fail.

[AtheistCrusader]

50. Please cite the EXACT post in that thread that you are referring to.

I don't refer people to 'the wikipedia' to back up an argument. I link to the specific item. You can do the same.

[RSillsbee]

44. Show me one post

just one that states that people that don't carry are cowards.

I'll wait and wait and wait and wait

[PavePusher]

62. A lot of crap packed in to your middle two sentences.

1. "I am simply refuting the often stated claim that guns are the best (only?) answer."

Cite to evidence? No-one has claimed they are the only answer. Or even the best answer. They are often the most efficient answer, and the one that poses the least risk to the defender. Hand-to-hand combat is risky stuff, as aknowledged in your O.P.


2. "Worse, too many claim that those who choose (yes, choose) not want to carry a firearm are cowards."

Unmitigated bullshit, and I challange you to provide evidence to support your accusation.

[Blown330]

91. That claim has never been made...

...therefore your premise of refuting anything is false. Only thing reeking of bullshit here is you. It's pathetic you using this story to attempt to prove something that only exists in your own, and rather cramped for space, head. This woman is indeed courageous, you are nothing but a tool.

[WatsonT]

136. So all we need is an endless supply of dying people that can be convienently thrown

at any threat that arises?

Yeah, that's way better (and more practical) than gun ownership.

[DWC]

12. Selfless courage

understates this lady's action. This has nothing to do with her free choice to carry or deploy a defensive weapon. It has everything to do with her strength of character and refusal to be a passive victim.

Hers is a shining example for all.

Semper Fi,

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

13. Don't think this has a fucking thing to do with firearms

Just flamebait.

[Buzz Clik]

16. Well, then, fucking read this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=397903&mesg_id=397908

It has everything to do with firearms.

[cleanhippie]

27. Well, then fucking show where ANYONE has ever stated what you claim?

You can't. I think the cowards you allude have been identified.

[Buzz Clik]

30. LOL!

Did you just call me a coward?

You do realize that in the middle of your claims that I am a liar that you, right here and right now, proved my point?

Thanks.

[cleanhippie]

32. Did I? YOU called everyone in this forum a coward in your OP. Your dishonesty is disgusting.

[Buzz Clik]

37. Provide the quote where I called anyone a liar. Then, provide the quote...

... where I called everyone a liar.

This is my last response to you. I fear your head is about to explode.

[cleanhippie]

38. When you provide the quote where anyone states that guns are the only solution to violence

we can move on to your other fantasies. Lets get YOUR inability to support your claims rectified first.

[rl6214]

60. No this has everything NOT to do with firearms

[rrneck]

20. AT LAST A SOLUTION!

People just need to hire terminally ill cancer patients as bodyguards!

[spin]

43. Each situation is different ...

and a firearm is not always necessary to stop violence or robbery. The woman in the article showed great courage.

Having said that, a firearm can be a very efficient tool to have available in a robbery. As I have said, each situation is different. If all the robber wants is money and he/she does have a gun in his hand, it may not be wise to attack or to pull your weapon. The objective is for the situation to end without anyone being injured.

But there are times when a robber is willing to hurt and even kill his victims. There were several such incidents in the area of Tampa where I once lived. A female clerk at a gas station was murdered after she complied with the robbers and turned over the money. Two women who worked at a Subway sandwich shop were shot by robbers, one died. The 22 year old clerk was killed because she was having difficulty opening the cash register. One of the masked robbers said, "‘Girl you’re too slow. You gots to die.’" (story at: http://www.tboblogs.com/index.php/newswire/story/subawy-murder-trial-starts)

One afternoon as I was headed home from work I decided to stop for gas at the station where the clerk had been shot years before. About a block from the station, a squad car raced passed me with lights flashing. I pulled into the Shell station and noticed a black and white in the parking lot but the car didn't have flashing lights. I got out of my car to pump the gas and a police officer walked out of the station and told me that the pumps were closed as the station has just been robbed.

The next day I stopped again to fill my tank. I asked the clerk what had happened and he said, "Some young kid came in and pointed a gun at me. I gave him the money and he left. No big deal."

I have often wondered what I would have done if I would have arrived at the gas station five minutes earlier and found myself in the middle of the robbery. I believe I would have simply watched with my hand on the snub nosed revolver in my pants pocket. I am neither a cop or a hero and as long as the robber acted rational, I believe that I would not have done anything foolish that might have led to the clerk or myself being shot.

[grahamhgreen]

46. Wait a second, I just might be on the bank robbers side!

[petronius]

47. I have never seen anyone in this forum post anything remotely like what you imply,

why do you think it would start now? :shrug:

The only people who 'claim' guns are the only and infallibly perfect solution to all problems are anti-gun posters (mainly a small group of DUers who get their kicks from trolling this forum) building strawman arguments. And, every pro-rights poster I've seen here completely respects other people's right to not have a gun if they so choose...

[Hoyt]

48. Glad one of our gun carriers weren't there. The robber would have a hole in her head.

The teller might too.

[cleanhippie]

51. Ahh, hoyt, more baseless assertion, hyperbole and nonsense.

AT least you are consistent.

[rrneck]

53. 0+0 is less than zero where this thread is concerned. nt

[GreenStormCloud]

55. Robber probably, Teller very unlikely

Contrary to your fear, most of us are proficient shots. We don't just scatter bullets at random. Teller would be OK. Under the law in all states it would be OK to shoot the robber.

[Hoyt]

120. "Proficient shots?" Where, on a range with paper targets or in front of your mirror.

So, under law it's OK to blast away at an unarmed woman who was ultimately taken out by a old, sick lady.

You sound like one of those guys/cowboys just looking for an excuse/justification to shoot a human.

Learn something from the old, sick lady.

[GreenStormCloud]

124. Shooting a robber who is only a few feet away doesn't require...

...the shooting skills of Annie Oakley. The old lady was lucky the robber was bluffing. Often robbers aren't. If that had been the case you would be posting another anti-gun tirade.

[Hoyt]

130. You make it sound so easy. The old, sick lady has something you guys don't, never will.

[GreenStormCloud]

154. She had to good luck to erncouter a robber who was bluffing. N/T

[rl6214]

157. Sometimes they take their bluff too far

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=118&topic_id=397903&mesg_id=398494

CARY, N.C—Cary police announced Sunday afternoon that the suspect in Thursday's hostage situation was unarmed.

Police said Devon Mitchell, 19, held seven hostages for three hours at the Wachovia Bank in Cary before police shot and killed him. It was through the ongoing investigation that Cary police discovered Saturday night that suspect Mitchell was unarmed when he held up Wachovia bank on Thursday afternoon.

Cary Police Chief Pat Bazemore said it is unclear why Mitchell wanted everyone to believe that he had a gun and was willing to use it.

"Why Devon set this all in motion, why he wanted us all to believe that he had a weapon and was prepared to kill with it are questions we will never have the answers to," said Bazemore. “He told the hostages he had a gun and the hostages believed he had a gun. He indicated to the hostage negotiator that he had a gun."

Police also believed Mitchell had a gun when he finally exited the Wachovia bank after a three hour hold up, with a hostage in front of him. According to Bazemore, the officers involved followed protocol when they fired numerous shots, killing Mitchell outside the bank.

[Hoyt]

164. But it's not your decision as a mere public carrier to make. The police had a hostage to consider.

[rl6214]

168. He was un-armed!

Hasn't that been your mantra this entire thread?

They didn't see a gun, they could have handled it without killing him, they could have, should have just tackled him like that sick old lady did, right?

Come on hoyt, make up your mind.

[rl6214]

171. But he was unarmed, that has been your mantra this entire thread

They should have/could have just tackled him, they didn't have to kill him.

You are sick, sick, sick for condoning the shooting and killing of this unarmed, innocent man.

You just wanted him killed all along.

[Hoyt]

191. "Mantra" is -- you don't need a gun in public and not your decision.

Unless your life is in imminent and clear danger.

[rl6214]

196. Actually it is my decision whether I need a gun in public or not

But I promise not to shoot unless my life is in imminent danger.

[Hoyt]

199. It would not be in this situation and most others. I doubt you realize that or you wouldn't carry.

[friendly_iconoclast]

201. Wow! I thought only hardcase Marxists still peddled the theory of "false consciousness".

[cleanhippie]

214. Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! Your a mind reader now, huh?

Bwahahahahahahaha!

Sweet Jesus, hoyt, you are a real piece of, well, work.

[cleanhippie]

213. Sometimes I wonder if it is possible for you to be more wrong, then BLAM! Another post.

it IS a personal decision, Hoyt. Yours and mine. You know that, but your dishonesty will not allow you to admit it and you even have to post your dishonesty for all to see. How sad.

:rofl:

[hack89]

57. Nothing wrong with dead armed robbers.

don't want them to get too comfortable.

[Hoyt]

58. There is when it could be handled without killing. I know that is foreign to some here.

[hack89]

59. Armed robbers are by definition violent criminals

if it can handled without risk then sure - let them live. But if there is the slightest chance of risk then shooting them is a proper choice. I will never question someone who decides that shooting a violent criminal was the best choice. The life of a violent criminal is worth nothing if he is threatening me or my family - I would not consider for a second risking my life to ensure he lived. Surely you can understand that.

[Hoyt]

67. Too many who carry in public see themselves as judge, jury and executioner (and "hero").

[hack89]

69. Most just want to be left alone

if a criminal wants to threaten them, they just want to be able to defend themselves.

Do you agree that my right to defend myself and my family outweighs any right a violent criminal has?

[cleanhippie]

70. Wow, Hoyt, you just make it up as you go along, huh?

I suppose you are unable to support that absurd claim with anything resembling a fact, huh?

[Hoyt]

74. What fact. Do you know if the robber had a gun, or would you just shoot first in a crowded bank?

And search her later.

I mean you guys think you are so ready to handle such situations with all that training with paper targets and mirrors you do.

[cleanhippie]

75. No need to be dishonest, Hoyt, we all know what is being discussed here.

And right now it is this absurd claim that you made only two posts ago:

Too many who carry in public see themselves as judge, jury and executioner (and "hero").

Now, are you able to back that absurd assertion up with anything factual, or will you attempt, yet again, to deflect from your nonsensical and unsubstantiated assertions and attempt to ignore what you, yourself, just posted?

[Hoyt]

77. Was it known at the time the robber was armed. Or, would you just shoot in a crowded place?

[cleanhippie]

81. So you really are just gonna ignore your baseless,absurd, and dishonest assertion?

And try to act like you didn't post it?

The depths of your dishonesty know no bounds.

[Hoyt]

94. I've yet to see where the woman had a gun. And you've yet to cite where she did.

[cleanhippie]

141. Continuing to deflect from your dishonest, fabricated assertion. Credibility = 0

Your credibility is now at ZERO. Buh - Bye! :hi:

[Hoyt]

146. Most folks here -- even the gun obsessed -- acknowledge the robber was not armed. You?

Well, you can't even acknowledge that several days after the fact.

[rl6214]

158. But even the police believe someone is armed if they say so

CARY, N.C—Cary police announced Sunday afternoon that the suspect in Thursday's hostage situation was unarmed.

Police said Devon Mitchell, 19, held seven hostages for three hours at the Wachovia Bank in Cary before police shot and killed him. It was through the ongoing investigation that Cary police discovered Saturday night that suspect Mitchell was unarmed when he held up Wachovia bank on Thursday afternoon.

Cary Police Chief Pat Bazemore said it is unclear why Mitchell wanted everyone to believe that he had a gun and was willing to use it.

"Why Devon set this all in motion, why he wanted us all to believe that he had a weapon and was prepared to kill with it are questions we will never have the answers to," said Bazemore. “He told the hostages he had a gun and the hostages believed he had a gun. He indicated to the hostage negotiator that he had a gun."

Police also believed Mitchell had a gun when he finally exited the Wachovia bank after a three hour hold up, with a hostage in front of him. According to Bazemore, the officers involved followed protocol when they fired numerous shots, killing Mitchell outside the bank.

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/636702/bank-robbery-suspect-unarmed-according-to-cary-police

[cleanhippie]

160. Has nothing to do with your dishonesty and baseless assertions. Nothing whatsoever.

You simply used that as a last-ditch effort to deflect from your blatant dishonesty and baseless assertions, that you CONTINUE to ignore, as if it never happened. Well, it DID happen, Hoyt, it happened in this thread and it happens in nearly ALL of your posts. You make baseless assertions, dishonest tactics and never, ever, once attempt to correct or justify ANY of it.


You have no credibility. :nuke:

Buh-bye. :hi:

[GreenStormCloud]

156. Doesn't matter. She claimed she was armed and that is all that is needed. N/T

[Hoyt]

163. Sure it matters. We don't need cowboys shooting folks when a little old, sick lady can handle it.

Again, some of you carriers are just looking for a reason to shoot.

[rl6214]

165. Just like these cops, right?

CARY, N.C—Cary police announced Sunday afternoon that the suspect in Thursday's hostage situation was unarmed.

Police said Devon Mitchell, 19, held seven hostages for three hours at the Wachovia Bank in Cary before police shot and killed him. It was through the ongoing investigation that Cary police discovered Saturday night that suspect Mitchell was unarmed when he held up Wachovia bank on Thursday afternoon.

Cary Police Chief Pat Bazemore said it is unclear why Mitchell wanted everyone to believe that he had a gun and was willing to use it.

"Why Devon set this all in motion, why he wanted us all to believe that he had a weapon and was prepared to kill with it are questions we will never have the answers to," said Bazemore. “He told the hostages he had a gun and the hostages believed he had a gun. He indicated to the hostage negotiator that he had a gun."

Police also believed Mitchell had a gun when he finally exited the Wachovia bank after a three hour hold up, with a hostage in front of him. According to Bazemore, the officers involved followed protocol when they fired numerous shots, killing Mitchell outside the bank.

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/636702/bank-robbery-suspect-unarmed-according-to-cary-police

[Hoyt]

179. I'd rather the police make that decision if it has to be made immediately, not some carrier.

[friendly_iconoclast]

190. By all means, feel free to make that decision for yourself.

I hope you make the correct one....

[Hoyt]

192. I will, because it won't involve me shooting someone in public with a gun I carry.

I don't. And, not many of you are ready to carry and make these decisions in public.

If someone is in your house and threatening you, that's different. But it's not worth the cost to society for 3% of the you to carry.

[friendly_iconoclast]

203. Statistics don't seem to agree with you, your claims of moral harm notwithstanding.

You really don't see any non-state actors legitimately employing deadly force publicly in self-defense, do you?

[oneshooter]

208. Why is that different? The cops can still respond to your home, can't they? n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

209. What cost to society? CCWers save lives, including their own. N/T

[GreenStormCloud]

88. Shoot the robber, let cops search her later.

When some one claims to be armed as part of a threat then they are to be treated as if they are armed. At the close range of this incident I won't miss and mow down any bystanders.

[Hoyt]

93. You are quite sure of yourself. I doubt it'd go the way you think, but carry on.

Why wouldn't you just grab her like the sick ole lady did. Too many carriers are just looking for an excuse to use their latest acquisition.

[MicaelS]

71. And too many gun prohibitionists equate the lives

Of thieves, robbers, rapists and murderers to that of people who work hard, pay their taxes and do not commit violent crimes. That is why gun prohibitionists keep losing the political debate and political races. Gun prohibitionists refuse to admit some human beings are bad, or simply evil.

[Hoyt]

72. Some are bad, but not one behind every tree as believed by folks who can't walk in public w/o a gun.

[rl6214]

86. And how do you come to this conclusion?

There have got to be just tons of examples of this, right?

[rl6214]

64. That's right, because sooo many have been killed

by concealed weapon carriers.

[Callisto32]

150. When someone tells you they are armed, you take it at face value.

If somebody gets himself shot by telling someone "I got a gun" (obviously we are talking about threatening situations here, like a robbery) and they get shot for it...well, sometimes "fittest" means "greater than room temperature IQ."

[rl6214]

159. Even the police act when someone says they are armed

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/636702/bank-robbery-suspect-unarmed-according-to-cary-police

CARY, N.C—Cary police announced Sunday afternoon that the suspect in Thursday's hostage situation was unarmed.

Police said Devon Mitchell, 19, held seven hostages for three hours at the Wachovia Bank in Cary before police shot and killed him. It was through the ongoing investigation that Cary police discovered Saturday night that suspect Mitchell was unarmed when he held up Wachovia bank on Thursday afternoon.

Cary Police Chief Pat Bazemore said it is unclear why Mitchell wanted everyone to believe that he had a gun and was willing to use it.

"Why Devon set this all in motion, why he wanted us all to believe that he had a weapon and was prepared to kill with it are questions we will never have the answers to," said Bazemore. “He told the hostages he had a gun and the hostages believed he had a gun. He indicated to the hostage negotiator that he had a gun."

Police also believed Mitchell had a gun when he finally exited the Wachovia bank after a three hour hold up, with a hostage in front of him. According to Bazemore, the officers involved followed protocol when they fired numerous shots, killing Mitchell outside the bank.

[rl6214]

63. Hey, can you do a reading for me?

Do you talk to people on the other side or can you just see into the future?

[Hoyt]

68. Same back. Your prediction of what would have happen is no better than mine.

You would have been wrong in this case because an old lady handled the situation without a gun.

[rl6214]

87. I haven't made any predictions

I don't have to prove anything.

[Hoyt]

96. You predicted robber needed to be taken out with a bullet to head. Old, sick lady proved you wrong.

[rl6214]

100. "u predicted robber needed to be taken out with a bullet to head."

PLEASE show me where I said anything of the sort, PLEASE, I'LL WAIT.

[rl6214]

107. Still waiting

For you to show me where I said the robber needed to be taken out with a bullet to the head.

[AtheistCrusader]

49. Un-rec for giant strawman.

[Union Scribe]

66. In fact I have traced a worldwide straw shortage to this thread.

It's certainly one of the biggest strawmen I've ever seen in the wild; a masterpiece in a way.

[Bold Lib]

137. I actually did LOL at your post. Thanks.

[Hoyt]

178. I did too.

[TPaine7]

56. I have the stones to tell her that her choice not to use a firearm is because she's a coward.

There's a small technicality that stops me, however--I don't believe it.

Unrec for an obvious straw man.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hoyt]

73. Is anyone sure robber had a gun, or is that just assumed to justify shooting her?

[cleanhippie]

76. Unbelievable, Hoyt, you really do just make it up as you go along, huh?

[Hoyt]

78. In other words, you don't know. I guess that's a good reason to open fire in a crowded bank.

[cleanhippie]

79. I know you are one of the most dishonest I have ever seen. You just made up shit again!

I guess that's a good reason to open fire in a crowded bank.

WTF are you talking about? Your dishonesty is disgusting. :puke:

[Hoyt]

80. Show me where the robber had a gun. You can't. But you'd blast away in a crowd.

[cleanhippie]

82. Dishonest AND clairvoyant. You are ready for a late-night infomercial!

:rofl:

[Hoyt]

83. Did she have a gun? And, would you shoot an unarmed woman in a crowded bank?

Maybe you ought not carry a gun in public because you apparently can't even assess the situation after the fact. I wonder how good you are at assessing things when the adrenaline is flowing.

[cleanhippie]

84. Why are you fabricating things, Hoyt?

You are verbalizing your fantasies, I think.

If I thought you were capable of having an honest conversation about "what if" scenarios, I would gladly discuss it with you. But considering your continued dishonesty, unwillingness to support or provide evidence for your absurd assertions, and rote regurgitation of debunked talking points and hyperbole, why would anyone bother?


Try being honest for a change.

[oneshooter]

85. Try this on for size............

"Witnesses said she claimed to have a gun, told customers and employees to get down on the floor and then demanded $10,000."

"she claimed to have a gun" so she apparently believed she was armed. Why should anybody want to call her a liar? She should be taken at her word on it.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Hoyt]

95. So you'd be quick to play judge, jury, executioner, and hero in your own mind.

I think the old, sick lady handled it properly. You should learn from her.

[oneshooter]

103. " Did she have a gun?" was your question.

It was answered, and all you can do is insult me?
You are one of the rudest posters (except maybe Jpac)I have seen on this forum. You NEVER offer proof of what you claim, you call all CHL holders "judge, jury, executioner" yet have not offered ONE case of it.

If she claimed that she had a firearm then it MUST be taken as truth, and acted on as needed.

As for the "little old lady" not having anything to look forward to except a lingering death by cancer can make anyone brave, once.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Hoyt]

105. And a sick, old lady handled it without resorting to the solution gunners promote.

The sick, old lady did something most of you seem incapable of even considering -- and it wasn't because she had terminal cancer. That's cancer humor, such that it is.

Talk about rude -- folks walking around in public with a gun hanging out is about as rude as you can get. Concealed ain't much better.

[rl6214]

108. "folks walking around in public with a gun"

is anything but rude because they are the quietest, most respectfull people you will find just about anywhere. They quietly go about their business ignoring rude jack-asses that take half assed shots at them, making up crap for doing nothing at all but exercising their constitutional rights.

[Hoyt]

110. Hey, carrying a gun in public should never be viewed as acceptable anymore than a machete or club.

There are plenty of things that are "lawful," but downright rude, greedy, unhealthy, dangerous, obnoxious, etc.

Get over it and leave your guns at home -- issue solved.

[rl6214]

127. The thing is the LAW says I don't have to leave my gun at home

so I guess the one that needs to get *over it* is you.

That's the Law.

Your side has been :spank:

Learn to deal with it.

Issue Solved!:headbang:

[Hoyt]

131. Lot's of things are legal -- but shouldn't be done by folks who care about society.

[rl6214]

138. Like you spreading your bullshit here?

Better suited in the fields as fertilizer.

[rrneck]

140. If you really cared

you would protect us. But you're only really interested in protecting your own sense of environmental aesthetics.

[Hoyt]

143. Protect you how, packing, shooting unarmed people -- that's no help.

Nor, is your packing helping anyone else, including me.

[rrneck]

152. As I've told you before

I don't carry.

If you don't want people to carry a gun, why don't you offer a solution for self defense that doesn't involve having a dying senior citizen tackling them. Do you have an effective and near universal self defense solution for people who are assaulted by another using a knife, club, fists, or feet that doesn't involve a firearm.

This is not the first time I have asked you this question, but your answer will be the first. I hope you can outrun criminals as effectively as you outrun honest discussion here.

[X_Digger]

227. I carry a gun because..

.. a dying senior citizen is too heavy.

[GreenStormCloud]

90. She CLAIMED she was armed. That's all it takes. N/T

[Hoyt]

97. Old, sick lady proved it didn't take a gun to handle the situation. You could learn from her.

[ManiacJoe]

99. Because you do not like the second valid solution

(use a gun) does not make that legally allowed solution any less valid. That option might involve a completely different set of risks than your preferred hand-to-hand combat, but your preference is just that, yours. And in some cases, not necessarily this one, it might even be the tactically better option.

[Hoyt]

101. You ain't the judge, nor are you appointed by society to protect us.

I'll go with the "sick, old lady solution" in this situation every time.

[ManiacJoe]

102. Thanks for agreeing with me!

I am not a judge, nor am I appointed by society to protect you.

Your choices are yours. Personally I will evaluate each situation individually and use the best tactics available for each one.

[Hoyt]

104. Good. Just don't settle on the tactic carriers have been preparing for all their lives.

As the old, sick lady proved -- it ain't necessary to pull a gun. And, I bet it ain't necessary most times. That probably makes a lot of gun carriers look like they sucked a lemon, but it's true.

[ManiacJoe]

125. Thanks, but I prefer to keep my options open.

Use the right tool for the job, as they say. Sometimes that correct tool is a gun.

[rl6214]

109. You go with the sick old lady

If it had been a little more seasoned criminal and you and I were there you probably wouldn't have been so lucky. I would have stayed out of the way, because I have no desire to be your protector. Most people that carry guns are the same way, we aren't there to watch out for you, you can go ahead and step in to stop a robbery if you want, we don't care.

[GreenStormCloud]

112. She was lucky that the robber was bluffing.

I prefer not to depend upon luck.

[Hoyt]

118. Nope, she read situation. Many here leave home with decision made of how they'll handle things --

And they would have handled it wrong in this situation.

[GreenStormCloud]

119. You have the advantage of hindsight.

If you will read what she said, she was ready to die in the attempt. That strongly indicates that she didn't read the robber as bluffing.

If the robber had been armed you would have been posting about a gun tradegy in that bank.

[Hoyt]

122. Or if one of the local cowboys had been there itching for a reason to pull their weapon.

I think the old, sick lady realized it wouldn't take much to subdue the unarmed robber -- certainly not shooting the unarmed robber because it's legal to do so. "Legal to do so" sounds like opening day or something.

[GreenStormCloud]

123. She didn't know the robber was bluffing.

Her own testimony is proof of that. She was willing to die in the attempt. At the time of the robbery attempt no one knew the robber was unarmed.

[Hoyt]

132. And yet the old, sick lady didn't need a gun. You wish you were there to use yours.

[GreenStormCloud]

89. You really should check up on the law on that kiind of scenario.

I someone makes a threat by claiming to be armed then they are to be treated as if they are armed. If they are killed and then found to be unarmed that is just their tough luck. There is no blame to the person who defended against them.

[Hoyt]

98. Treated as if armed? Old, sick lady took care of it without resorting to a gun.

You folks need to learn that just because the law allows something, you don't have to do it.

Kudos to old, sick lady who makes you guys look rather pathetic.

[Straw Man]

106. Old sick lady also treated her as if armed.

Otherwise, why tackle her? Not exactly justified unless you take the person's threats at face value. Second-guessing deadly threats is not advisable.

I think you're ignoring the "terminally ill and nothing to lose" aspect as well. Old sick lady was very brave and very lucky, but also was not possessed of the self-preservation mindset that most people walk around with every day. Surely you're not advising people that tackling armed robbers is a good survival strategy. That would be highly irresponsible of you.

[Hoyt]

111. Old, sick lady "tackled" her -- Didn't shoot her and endanger others in bank.

Many of the carriers here have indicated what they'd do (well, what they like to think they'd do based upon all their training with paper targets and posing in front of mirrors). And what they'd do wasn't -- and quite often isn't -- necessary.

[PavePusher]

115. Broken record. Sigh. n/t

[Straw Man]

126. So you do advocate tackling armed robbers.

I hope no one follows your advice, or else their blood will be on your hands.

[Hoyt]

134. Straw Man, robber wasn't armed. If they had been, I'd go with the sick/old lady before gun carriers

If you can't acknowledge robber was unarmed days after situation, you sure couldn't assess things during the excitement.

[Straw Man]

144. Lady assumed the robber to be armed, and acted accordingly.

Otherwise, why tackle her? Hardly seems appropriate otherwise. If you don't believe she's armed, you say "Yeah, right," and go on with your banking.

If you can't acknowledge robber was unarmed days after situation, you sure couldn't assess things during the excitement.

I can and have acknowledged that the robber was unarmed. Either you don't know what "as if" means, or you're trying to misrepresent what I said.

You're using the benefit of hindsight to second-guess the situation. The woman had good reason to believe the robber was armed. Do you actually believe the woman thought the robber was unarmed?

[rl6214]

155. Why would someone claim to be armed if they weren't?

Because that's what bank robbers do? How about this one:

http://charlotte.news14.com/content/top_stories/636702/bank-robbery-suspect-unarmed-according-to-cary-police

CARY, N.C—Cary police announced Sunday afternoon that the suspect in Thursday's hostage situation was unarmed.

Police said Devon Mitchell, 19, held seven hostages for three hours at the Wachovia Bank in Cary before police shot and killed him. It was through the ongoing investigation that Cary police discovered Saturday night that suspect Mitchell was unarmed when he held up Wachovia bank on Thursday afternoon.

Cary Police Chief Pat Bazemore said it is unclear why Mitchell wanted everyone to believe that he had a gun and was willing to use it.

"Why Devon set this all in motion, why he wanted us all to believe that he had a weapon and was prepared to kill with it are questions we will never have the answers to," said Bazemore. “He told the hostages he had a gun and the hostages believed he had a gun. He indicated to the hostage negotiator that he had a gun."

Police also believed Mitchell had a gun when he finally exited the Wachovia bank after a three hour hold up, with a hostage in front of him. According to Bazemore, the officers involved followed protocol when they fired numerous shots, killing Mitchell outside the bank.

[Hoyt]

174. Good. You have now learned a lesson. Robbers don't always require shooting. Leave guns at home.

[rrneck]

What solution do you have

for the ones that DO need shooting?

[Straw Man]

176. A lesson?

Good. You have now learned a lesson. Robbers don't always require shooting. Leave guns at home.

Is this in reference to the officers who shot Mitchell?

Were they in error? Should they have waited until he proved he had a gun -- by, say, shooting a hostage -- before they fired?

We don't all share your remarkable clairvoyance.

[Hoyt]

180. You need to understand -- it's not your position to make that decision. Have no problem with officer

But, whatever authority you have to carry does not give you the unfettered right to shoot someone in the situation described in the OP. And, really it doesn't in the hostage situation.

I think the officer did right. I think if it had been you, or we were talking situation in OP, you'd be exceeding what almost anyone expects of a private citizens packing in public.

You need to leave guns at home.

[rl6214]

184. How do you do it, talking out both sides of your mouth at the same time

First you won't stop about how an UNARMED bank robber was stopped by a sick little old lady now it's the cops made a good shoot on an UNARMED bank robber.

"I think if it had been you, or we were talking situation in OP, you'd be exceeding what almost anyone expects of a private citizens packing in public"

Again with you knowing what I would do in public in a given situation. I've said it to you before and I'll say it again, if we (you and I) were in a situation like a bank robbery, I am armed and the bank robber is going to shoot you, I'll let him shoot you. I am not there to defend you, I am there to protect myself and my loved ones. Rest assured in that situation, I am not going to play John Wayne, Rambo or any other TV star hero, you would die.

[friendly_iconoclast]

189. Us peasants are supposed to rely on the mercy of self-proclaimed armed robbers.

The servants of the powers-that-be are apparently bound by no such restrictions, according to our interlocutor.

Strange to be seeing this 12th Century mindset in the 21st.....

[Hoyt]

193. You nor anyone else were in danger. Just your everyday unfounded fear and whatever.

In 12th century, barbarians carried clubs and whatever. We don't need that kind of justice nowadays. Grow up.

[friendly_iconoclast]

204. But you approved of the cops' actions in the second case, did you not?

If no one was in danger in that case, was it any more legitimate for the cops to shoot the guy as opposed to some armed

bank customer who wasn't quite willing to accept the position of hostage?


Is the would-be bank robber less dead?

[friendly_iconoclast]

188. It doesn't do for the heathens to presume to act in the same way as the elect, eh?

Admit it, Hoyt- You're Puritan to the bone in regards to the subject of guns.

[rl6214]

182. The lesson I learned was

That you don't know shit (well I didn't learn that, I already knew it) and that even cops shoot unarmed bank robbers.

Oh and that I'll continue to carry whenever I want. In fact I'm headed out to the grocery store right now, need to grab my fanny pack with my carry weapon in it.

[Hoyt]

183. Hope you don't need it. Police should make that decision, not you. But 1/2 first sentence funny..

I good laugh is hard to fine among those afraid of leaving home without a gun.

[rl6214]

187. Sorry, I can't fit a cop in my fanny pack

So I'm leaving home with my gun.

See ya in 30.

[Name removed]

194. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

197. Oh, so now you are calling me immature huh?

You know that much about me that you can call me immature?

[friendly_iconoclast]

200. Don't you know our interlocutor is gifted with telepsychological ability?

He knows the innermost drives of millions of people he has never met.

We are truly blessed to have him here....

[rl6214]

202. Yeah, I've asked him about that a number of times

But he won't give me a reading, won't tell me my forture, won't tell me what lottery numbers to pick, nothing.

[friendly_iconoclast]

205. And despite the Puritanical attitude towards guns, he ain't no Jonathan Edwards.

(the New England preacher, not the singer-songwriter). Let's just say his stuff isn't yet at the level of "Sinners In The Hands Of

An Angry God". But he's getting there....

[Hoyt]

207. "Puritanical attitude toward guns" - That's good. I do want to keep them in privacy of your home.

That's where they belong, not in most public places.

[rrneck]

216. Have you got that

firearm free self defense solution yet?

[cleanhippie]

225. "I do want to keep them in privacy of your home" - We are talking about your posts, right?

If so, I strongly agree.

[Euromutt]

226. Hoyt, a "Puritanical attitude towards guns"?

Ha! The Puritans brought their guns to church, which according to Hoyt would be frightfully gauche, for reasons he's never bothered to make clear.

And I think Hoyt fancies himself not so much a Jonathan Edwards as a John Edward (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Edward aka "The Biggest Douche in the Universe" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Biggest_Douche_in_the_Universe). In evidence here in particular is Edward's technique (#7 in this post http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2006/05/john_edward_rer.html) of insisting that, when he gets something wrong, it's the other person who's mistaken, as in post #118 where Hoyt insists Ms Dunsford knew the would-be robber wasn't actually armed in spite of her statement that "I have cancer, stage 4, and I figured if I'm gonna die it's God will when I die."

[PavePusher]

221. Police can not make any decisions for me.....

when they are not on the scene.

And since you consistently refuse to volunteer to help anyone with their personal security, you don't get to chose for others either.

[X_Digger]

228. Are the police 'judge, jury, and executioner' now?

How hypocritical.

[rl6214]

129. Do you "pose in front of mirrors"

You sure do talk about it a lot. Projecting maybe just a little?

Where do you come up with these ideas? Do you fancy yourself an action figure, maybe a super model or a porn star?

[Hoyt]

133. Fast draw, not me. I don't see the need to carry, so don't need to practice it.

Point is -- which you can't see -- you guys aren't trained to handle a situation like that, paper targets, mirrors, or whatever makes you think you are. The old, sick lady showed you how it's done without resorting to a gun.

[rl6214]

139. I believe this about as much as the post where you claimed

I said I would have shot the robber in the head. You still haven't backed that one up.

[Hoyt]

145. You indicated you would have shot them -- if the head was wrong, where would you have aimed?

Head, stomach, back or foot -- what difference does it make when it wasn't necessary to shoot at all?

[jeepnstein]

113. Not a bad move.

If you've got nothing to fear from dying then you're pretty much a formidable opponent. I don't recommend that kind of move for everyone. Personally, I would have just shot to stop the aggression. That's just me. I've been trained in how to face an armed suspect by going hands-on and that training tells me it's a risky move. If all you have to fight with is your hands, feet, and teeth then that's what you fight with. Bravo to Helen Dunsford.

[Euromutt]

116. I have some suggested reading for the anti-CCW crowd

It's the guide "How not to convert an atheist" by blogger "Ebon Muse": http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/hownot.html

While the guide pertains to a different subject, namely religion, it contains some excellent pointers on how to avoid utterly failing to persuade one's interlocutor, such as:

- Don't tell <your interlocutors> what they think; let them tell you what they think.
- Don't make assertions you're not prepared or willing to defend.
- Don't use threats, personal insults, or ad hominem attacks.
- Don't try to be an armchair psychologist.

Read the whole thing, and fer chrissakes, learn from it.

[rrneck]

121. Yep

It's a truism in psychology circles that you can't tell people how they feel.

[friendly_iconoclast]

128. Sound advice. Too bad it will be ignored.

The anti-CCW sorts have been reduced to moral posturing, hysteria, and flat-out consumer fraud.


This is due, I believe, to two factors: 1. Lack of intellectual honesty, combined with 2. a notable lack of persuasive skills.

[GreenStormCloud]

117. You are posting with the advantage of hindsight.

As it turned out the robber was bluffing and didn't have a gun, so the Ms. Dunsford's tackle worked. Now consider if the robber lady had really been armed. Now you have a gun being fired during a struggle and bullet flying unaimed. At the time of the tackle the robber was claiming to be armed and threatening to shoot.

People who claimed to be armed are to be taken at their word and treated accordingly. Whether or not I would attempt to engage would depend upon more information than is available. If the situation is favorable I would shoot, if unfavorable I would not.

[WatsonT]

135. So if everyone were just in the terminal stages of cancer the world would be a better place?

Likewise do we really need to use robots for dangerous jobs, like cleaning out nuclear reactors?

Why not just use people who are dying anyway.

We don't need the proper tools, just people with courage.

[Hoyt]

148. What we need are people with guts who care about society -- not more folks packing guns in public.

[friendly_iconoclast]

162. How nice of you to volunteer others for the task of remaking society to your liking.

You are perfectly free to not carry a gun in public, and so is everybody else.


Personally, I rather like the idea that some value their own opinion of what is an appropriate way to guard their personal

safety above that of some self-proclaimed moralist.


Moralists are all of the same type, differing only in the particular bugbear that sets them off to try and 'save' society. Guns,

alcohol, abortion, homosexuality, cannabis, the "wrong" religion-the True Believers always have some Great Satan to fight....

[WatsonT]

212. So you believe the problem with having guns is that it means we aren't as courageous?

Yep be sure to lecture some 90 lb woman who didn't get raped/murdered by a 250lb ex-con because she had a gun that she was being cowardly.

BTW: it was apparently not a particularly big woman doing the robbing. What if it had been a much larger man, or group of men? I think things would have gone differently.

I for one would rather not have the right to self-defense limited to some individuals based on viciousness and muscle mass.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

142. "The cancer victim didn't need a weapon of any kind, just courage"... (or nothing to lose)

I wonder if she would've acted the same if she were younger or had children or people who depended on her care. ??

[Hoyt]

147. Bet she would. Don't assume people with cancer have given up.

Now, you guys have to denigrate the sick. I guess if she had blasted away with a gun, you'd be happier.

[Straw Man]

151. If she herself hadn't given her cancer as a reason for her actions...

...then you might almost have a point.

No one is denigrating the sick. You're going pretty low now.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Straw Man]

177. Ad hominem: when you really have nothing at all left.

I'm alerting on this one, Hoyt. You just don't know when to quit, do you? I'm not even offended: it's for your own good. You're embarassing yourself now.

[cleanhippie]

215. And the insults fly. I gotta admit, you held it together longer than most threads

But in the end, your true nature shines through.

[rl6214]

153. No one here has denigrated what she did

if anything they have commended her on her bravery, you are the one that needsw to worry about your reputation.

[Hoyt]

170. Most here view this as a missed opportunity to end up in the "Armed Citizen" column.

That would add to your "facts" of cases where a public gun carrier "handled" a situation . . . . . . .a situation like many that was (or could have been) handled by a little sick lady without a gun.

[rl6214]

172. Kinda like where you said I stated she should have been shot in the head

You still haven't backed that one up, still waiting.

[Hoyt]

175. You indicated a gun was needed in situation. Head, chest, neck, abdomen -- what difference.

[rl6214]

185. You need to stop while you're behind

again you can't show me where I have said this.

Game over.

[petronius]

173. By "most" you must mean 'none'. Well, except for you, since in this entire thread

you're the only one making that ludicrous claim. :shrug:

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

161. Directly from the article:

"...said she has nothing to lose because of terminal cancer..."
"I have cancer, stage 4, and I figured if I'm gonna die it's God will when I die."

What you say might have some merit if the author's and heroine's own words didn't back up my reply to the OP. I mean, jeez... it's not like we'd expect an esteemed contributor of (now AOL's) Huffington Post to actually exhibit some reading comprehension. :eyes:

[Hoyt]

167. You too have never been around sick people. I suspect she would have done the same thing sans cancer

Something you will never understand.

[rl6214]

169. Workin with that crystal ball again, huh?

"You too have never been around sick people"

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

217. No, I will never understand divination...

[Callisto32]

149. ?

That loud buzzing noise was the point flying over your head.

This doesn't even make sense. I have said in a couple of conversations on the topic of the nature of mass shootings "I don't understand why people don't make a last stand even if they are in a place where they are disarmed. When some freak decides he's going to kill you either way, you may as well go down swinging a pencil." I understand that in an actual fight, often such presence of mind goes out the window, still I don't know any pro-gun people say that those who don't carry do so because they are cowards...

I guess what I am saying is, if I were trying to describe your post with made up code it would be "SnsVal=0."

[Hoyt]

181. I agree. If folks did go down swinging rather than using gun, they'd come out alright in many cases

The remaining cases aren't worth the harm to society by having folks parading around with guns in most public places.

[rl6214]

186. Do you even know what you are posting other than pure bullshit

"If folks did go down swinging rather than using gun, they'd come out alright in many cases"

If folks did go down swinging rather than using a gun, THEY STILL GO DOWN.

That's what you want is for innocent people to "go down swinging" rather than use a firearm.

You are sick.

[Hoyt]

195. Sick, old lady just showed you how it is done with no gun.

[rl6214]

198. Blah, blah blah, blah

yeah you've said the same thing to everyone all day long. No debate, just blah, blah, blah.

[GreenStormCloud]

210. Only because she was lucky and the robber was unarmed.

If she were to try that on an armed robber she would likely have gotten shot, maybe gotten some others shot also.

[Hoyt]

222. Can't stand it, can you? Little Lady handled situation without a gun.

[GreenStormCloud]

223. She did great in THAT situation. How about you trying it against...

...a robber who is really armed and not bluffing? We will send a sympathy card to your funeral.

[Hoyt]

224. Unarmed people protect themselves everyday, probably more often than gun carriers.

[Texasborncowboy]

206. Interesting situation.

Many have posted what they would have done in this situation. One person has made multiple posts presuming to know what others would have done, or what they desire to do.

It doesn't add anything to the discussion to call CCWers as a group "judge, jury and executioner."

Each person is different, and I believe each person would react differently.

One poster stated they would seek cover as opposed to drawing and others have posted that they would have fired on the suspect.

In this situation I would have drawn, identified myself as an officer and demanded the suspect raise their hands. If they complied there would be no problem. However, if they reached in their pocket, I would have no choice but to take their word that they're armed and fire.

I hope and pray that I never have to shoot at another person.

[GreenStormCloud]

211. A respectful question, please.

First, an honest thank you for your post. Now the question. What if the robber is claiming to be armed and as part of their bluff keeps a hand in their jacket pocket? I live in Texas (Dallas area) and have a CHL.

[Texasborncowboy]

218. I'm in Dallas too!

This is just my opinion. If you as a civilian with a CHL fired on the suspect, I think it would be a good shoot. In my position as an officer with the county I live in mortal fear of IA(internal affairs). Maybe that's a little dramatic but that tempers any idea I have of firing my weapon.

Perhaps Jepnstein could weigh in on this one.

Again, it's hard to say how one will react in each specific situation. If the suspect isn't facing me directly, I would probably go with my original statement. However, If the suspect is facing me, I have to take their word that they are armed and I would quite probably fire.

[GreenStormCloud]

219. I probably would not shoot unless things looked dicey.

Most bank robberies and other robberies are completed with no casualties. I would not want to start a gun fight with others around. But it I thought that the robber was actually about to start shooting then I would shoot. If I did take the shot it would be with no warning at all.

[Texasborncowboy]

220. I think that is the best way.

I like to think that the vast majority of CCWers think the same way as you. That is they are not looking for an opportunity to shoot, but willing to shoot if they fear for their life.