Has gun ownership in the US become an acceptable form of Idolatry?

[Arctic Dave]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry


Discuss.


More for the conversation:

Are you more likely to go to a house of worship on the weekend or are you more likely to do something that involves guns (shooting range, hunting, reloading, etc.)

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cleanhippie]

2. Seems like you are trying to slip a broad-brush smear in, Dave.

Lightly veiled smear of gun owners as "gun worshipers". hardly going to generate civil discussion.

[Arctic Dave]

10. No braod brush at all.

Did I say that all gun owners are idolators? No. If I did then I would be included. However, I see an awful lot of gun "enthusiast"(? spelling) that have more then just a second amendment interest in ownership.

[S_B_Jackson]

98. Yes, Dave, you did imply that all gun owners are "idolators"....

Myself, I'm not terribly religious. I figure if God wants me to do something, he knows how to reach me.....

So I sleep in in the morning, get a nice breakfast, read the paper, finish up whatever yardwork needs to be taken care of, and then if I've got nothing on the "honey do" list then the day's mine to do pretty much what I please. Sometimes this means going to the beach, other times it means the wife and I going to catch a movie, and still others it means going to the range.

Your implication in that the equates somehow to "worship".:eyes:

Logic FAIL.

[SlimJimmy]

3. Not really. It's a way to exercise a 2nd amendment right.

[CTyankee]

4. The posts in the Gun forum tend to be strangely devoid of human interaction.

Lots of pictures of their "hardware" and lots of technical stuff about the gun's features (almost like people's characteristics)so there might be some truth to this. I haven't figured it all out yet...but worship sounds close...

[GreenStormCloud]

57. Well, it is a GUNS forum, not a Spouse & Kids forum. N/T

[CTyankee]

87. I'm happy to have a Gun Forum where y'all can chat all you want about guns.

I just ignore it. PLenty to read on DU that doesn't concern guns...

[RSillsbee]

96. For someone who "just ignores it"

you sure spend a lot of time here

[CTyankee]

97. Not as much time as I spend elsewhere!

[RSillsbee]

99. Trollin' trollin' trollin keep them posts a rollin NT

[CTyankee]

102. And you have a nice day, hear?

:hi:

[pipoman]

68. Do you feel the same about the photography forum?

The gamers? The cooking forum? The atv people? The car people? The 4x4 guys? The motorcycle enthusiasts? Coin collectors? What a crock o'shit.

[CTyankee]

88. Well, thank you for your polite remark. My answer is no, I don't feel the same way about

the Photography forum because photography is an art form and the contributors are contributing to art in our lives here at DU. Art is enriching to the human soul and psyche and as humans we were born to naturally relate to art, either by doing it or by appreciating it. And no work of art has ever killed anyone.

I regard cooking almost the same, as it can often be an art form, but in a different way. The cooking forum is by and large an enriching forum, nourishing our bodies and also our senses through the creative use of color and taste.

I do not utilize the other fora that you mention. Nothing against them, just not interested.

[pipoman]

94. I am referring to the whole idea of

"but worship sounds close..." as being a crock. I have been a semi-professional photog for 10+ years. I go to photog forums, web sites, and the photog forum here to read and talk about technique, equipment, software, and style...a photography enthusiast? yes. Worship? Not even close. I have been an antiquer and collector of many things for decades. I go to places where like minded people go to discuss these things. I drive hundreds of miles to seek these things. Enthusiast? Yes. Worship? Nope. I work on my own cars. Sometimes go to vehicle enthusiast's websites and forums. There are many there with thousands of posts who post almost daily and own many vehicles. Enthusiasts? Yep. Worshipers. Not hardly. Why are guns any different than any of the other hobbies people have and are passionate about? The whole idea of worship of inanimate objects, other than by the mentally impaired, is idiotic silliness.

[CTyankee]

95. While I am glad you have and enjoy art in your life, I do not agree with your

assessment of the gun statement. It is not the piece of equipment that is the problem here. It is the emotional attachment that people give it that caused me to comment as I did. I think for some gun people guns are a totem and I don't think photographers (at least not the photographers I know and like very much) regard their equipment as totems. Respect, yes. Admire for the power to help the human be creative with, and contribute to, the enrichment of people's lives with that art. Ditto cars and antiques because you can admire their styles. They can be objects of beauty (to a greater or lesser extent). Guns cannot be that and, as you admit, can be worshipped by mentally unstable people.

[pipoman]

113. Most gun enthusiasts do, in fact, appreciate

them for their beauty, mechanical excellence, precision craftsmanship, incredible accuracy, and inherent skill required to fully utilize their function. There are those who own guns for their utility as there are those who own cameras and cars for their utility. There is no reason to spend thousands on a camera, really, with the unbelievable quality of far less expensive models. Yet when the new Canon 5DII came out with a price tag of $2500, there was a 3 month wait. Enthusiasts. There are some 300,000,000 guns by most estimates owned by over 100,000,000 Americans. Annually there are, combined, even including suicides, 30,000 gun deaths. This equates to .01% of firearms are involved in a homicide or suicide annually, and .03% of gun owners use their gun in a homicide or suicide. This doesn't even account for the absolute assurance that of the homicides more than one are often committed by the same gun and the same shooter, nor the fact that most homicides are committed by people who have acquired their gun or possess it illegally. Subtract off those used in a homicide or suicide, and as with most consumer items, most owners have them for their utility (as do car owners and camera owners), there is a small fraction who are enthusiasts. Non gun owners and gun control advocates on DU are misled by the guns forum here. The DU guns forum is very unique among gun forums in that there is actual controversy regarding firearms laws and regulation. There are dozens of firearms forums on the web. On these forums, almost without fail, there are general discussion areas where members talk about their families, their pets, their jobs, their other interests, etc. I have been a contributor to the DU guns forum for around 5 years. I have actually became more left leaning politically over that time than I was when I came. I feel very, very strongly that Dems make a huge mistake by knee jerk legislation and placing absurd labels on 2nd amendment advocates within our party or even outside of our party. I believe in liberal interpretation of all civil rights and liberties, as do most longer term posters in the DU guns forum.

[oneshooter]

101. And a handbuilt Longrifle is not an "art form"?

http://www.kentuckylongrifles.com/


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[RSillsbee]

103. I think a good quality 1911 is as well NT

[CTyankee]

107. Here we go again with your "hardware." I know to you these items are

at the pinnacle of high art, but you might want to explore an art history course somewhere. I'm serious and I'm not being snarky. Discovering great art, of any era and any culture, can be a wonderful experience. Then we could chat about something we have in common!

[RSillsbee]

117. As a former machinist I admire the quality in a well made firearm

I like to take mine apart and see how they were made and what tool was used to do each part. I own a S&W 6906 (I keep wanting to say 6909)that I purchased at a gun show pre-owned but never used a few months back. When we got it home I disassembled it and I could see the cutter marks on the bottom of the slide. They were still fresh which how I knew the gun hadn't been fire much by the previous owner. The cutter marks also told me the machinist has that piece set up perfectly.

Who are you to tell me what is or isn't art?

[CTyankee]

121. When, upon viewing it, it takes the top of your head off...

here I am paraphrasing Emily Dickinson.

Workmanship is always part of art. I don't believe that workmanship alone constitutes art. However, I, of course, bow to your appreciation for great workmanship. It is craft that I, alas, do not have...but of course I can appreciate it.

[RSillsbee]

129. I'm not sure what you mean by this

When, upon viewing it, it takes the top of your head off...

My personal rule is that I never touch a gun W/ out verifying the status of the chamber.

Workmanship is always part of art. I don't believe that workmanship alone constitutes art.

Maybe not but I still admire a skillfully made piece of work if it's a gun or a Titainium femoral nail ot a firing pin for an A10

[CTyankee]

134. Dickinson was talking about poetry. She was asked what was poetry and

this is a paraphrase of her response. I don't think she meant it literally but with her you never know (she wrote the poem "My life stood a loaded gun"!)I can't think of a better response than that when you ask what is art. She said it better than I could but it is my feeling entirely, both about poetry and art.

It is always wonderful to encounter good workmanship and I admire it too. I was trying to make a distinction between workmanship per se and art that transcends the work product and becomes "remade" into something that we can only call art because we don't know how to deal with its importance in our life otherwise. You can call Michelangelo's art workmanship and certainly his "David" is that. But it has meaning beyond just his crafting chisel and what he did with a block of marble....

[pipoman]

119. You are ignoring rule #1

of art appreciation, IMHO. That is to respect all art forms as expressions of the maker's talent and vision. It doesn't mean you have to love or even like it. There are those who believe Warhol's Campbell's soup art is ridiculous, that Shaker furniture are simple utilitarian furnishings, that Edwardian portraiture is only photography prior to cameras. You even admitted that mass produced manufactured items can be artistic, "Ditto cars and antiques because you can admire their styles.". Just because you don't appreciate these items for their craftsmanship and style, a true art aficionado would have to acknowledge that they could hold someones interest based on their style and complex simplicity in the same way a Shaker table could.

[CTyankee]

122. I like the decorative arts and last year was privileged to attend an all

Shaker exhibit at the New Britain Museum of American Art, the personal collection of one of my art acquaintances here in CT. I have brought back decorative tiles from Portugal. The poor Portuguese, they were trying to imitate the great art of China (that they plundered from their colony there) and it just isn't the same quality by a long shot. It's hard for me to describe this to you, but if you see them side by side you get what I mean...

[pipoman]

126. I am not really familiar with international antiquities, or ceramics

for that matter. I do have some very early American pottery and some contemporary pottery from local artists. I can imagine and envision it the same way modern Indian cloisonné enamel differs from early Chinese cloisonné.

My most recent acquisition..shot in a hurry with the 5D gen1 I scarfed up for $.30/$1 from another camera enthusiast who couldn't wait to spend his $2500 on the new 5DII. ;)

[CTyankee]

127. Maybe the Indian artists were not trying to imitate the Chinese artists,

I really don't know. However, I like cloisonne, what little I know of it.

Hey, a new project for me! Thanks, you've piqued my interest!

[RSillsbee]

135. Believe it or not

I understand exactly what you mean and I get the same feeling every time I look at a Rock island Armory 1911 and a Night Hawk 1911 side by side

[CTyankee]

137. I believe you. I don't doubt that is the way you feel...

[Hoyt]

115. If folks were content carrying one of those, we wouldn't have issues. Unfortunately,

So many want to carry something capable of a massacre in 15 seconds. Anything less and they feel neutered.

[LARED]

5. Before you wonder if your premise is acceptable

you might consider establishing that gun ownership is a form of idolatry.

[Arctic Dave]

37. Maybe it could become someones thesis.

That would be an interesting read.

[villager]

6. Clearly, a rhetorical question

n/t

[petronius]

7. And a nice example of 'begging the question', if I correctly understand the logical fallacy...

(Nothing to see here! :))

[howaboutme]

25. Do you mean phallus-y?

The one thing that the USA still has going for it ( after all these years) unlike Egypt and other countries is the right for average non-political, non-wealthy citizens to legally hold an enormous amount of firepower. The anti-gun owners don't yet comprehend or grasp the greater significance that such a balance of power and relationship provides to the average people.

The reality is that politicians and the Wall St and ultra rich given their druthers would far prefer if the average un-rich, un-educated, poor, illiterate American was completely neutered and disarmed like the cattle at the Kansas City stockyards, they'd be elated.

Like most most Americans, I like it the way it is, where politicians and the rich must give pause to us poor schmucks that still have the right to bear arms, and some political power, even though we make up 99% of the USA. If all 300 million Americans were armed with only slingshots that is exactly the way our masters would treat us.

From my cold dead hands.....

[petronius]

38. Well I didn't, but now I do. Never use a real word when a pun will suffice...

:)

[Ramulux]

8. Fuck yeah

Who doesn't love murdering helpless animals? I love the feeling when I am looking into a dead animals eyes and I know that I am better than they are because I was able to point a metal thing at them and pull a trigger. I think hunting is such a beautiful, respectful sport that really makes me feel like I am in touch with mother nature.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

12. Yeah, I don't feel complete until I kill something.

[spin]

46. I've owned firearms for 45 years and never have killed or injured a living creature ...

I have put a lot of holes in paper targets.

I enjoy the sport but it doesn't make me feel complete.

[east texas lib]

35. Don't quit your day job...

You'll never make it as a rabble rouser.

[gejohnston]

48. So are you saying

That it is more civilized to support financially the factory farm/feedlot system by buying a parts of an animal at the super market that someone else killed? Which is better, meat from a humanly killed animal vs eating animal that spent its short wretched existence in a tiny caged while being pumped with God knows what chemicals? Sorry, unless you are a veggie you are a hypocrite.
On the other hand, if you are talking about the guy with a $50K double barrel rifle going to some farm for a hunt or flying to Africa just to put a rino head on the wall, then we agree.

[RSillsbee]

61. Eat meat?

Some one's killed that burger you're scarfing

[GreenStormCloud]

90. We are decended from killer apes. We were hunter-gatherers

for millions of years before modern civilization with grocery stores and meat in cellophane packaging. Those who enjoyed hunting were better at it and kept the tribe fed better. Their offspring and relative survived better. After all of that selective pressure many of us have a hunting hunger hard-wired into us.

[ZombieHorde]

9. According to your link, the answer is no.

Idolatry is the worship of a physical object as a god.

Gun ownership is not a physical object; gun ownership is a concept.

[Arctic Dave]

11. Understood. So are "guns" an acceptable form of Idolatry?

[ZombieHorde]

17. I have been looking up different definitions for religious worship,

and I doubt guns are worshiped.

Guns are deeply loved, but I don't think that is enough to qualify as religious worship. People deeply love their children, but do they worship their children? I don't think so. I think the object needs to be viewed as a deity.

I am using the phrase, "religious worship," to differentiate from, "romantic worship," or other poetic ideas. Idolatry is a religious concept.

[Arctic Dave]

19. Yes, but a religious concept to a "physical object".

[ZombieHorde]

24. I am sorry. I don't understand what you are saying.

Can you explain your point differently?

(I have to do laundry soon, so if I don't reply right away, it's because I am at the laundry mat.)

[Riftaxe]

13. More likely to apply to anti-gun advocates

I would venture that most gun owners realize it is a simple hunk of machined metal, and lacks the mystical and divine powers that the anti-s attribute to it.

[Arctic Dave]

14. I think you confuse Idolatry with Dogma.

[ZombieHorde]

18. I don't think idolatry applies to either group.

I think many political differences are nothing more than political differences.

[Hoyt]

15. Yes, read pro-gun posts. The love of guns -- and parading with them in public -- has gone too far.

I really do not believe some of the pro-gunners could go on if they couldn't carry their friend in public and really cut loose with their weapon caches while in the privacy of their home or while shooting paper targets and posing in front of a mirror preparing for the mugger they are sure is going to jump out from behind a tree and get them.

[ZombieHorde]

20. I don't think your post describes religious worship.

Gun parades and mirror fantasies may be to your distaste, but that does not mean gun parades and mirror fantasies evidence of idolatry.

[Hoyt]

59. Reverence, adoration, devotion, can't live without, etc. Sounds pretty sick to me.

[ZombieHorde]

64. I attend a college, and I think you just described most of my fellow student's relationship with

their cell phones. Do they really need to be texting while using the stairs?

[rl6214]

73. Please show proof

of ANY of these things.

I'll wait.

[cleanhippie]

104. Hoyt, you are projecting again.

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. I'm sure your grandfather decried flappers and bobbed hair on women in much the same way.

You might get through life with a much lowered anxiety level were you to read statistics on the reduction in crime.

Of course, that might also entail giving up the pretense of knowing what motivates a large group of people.

[Hoyt]

60. It was my FIL - but he loved the women. But even though a policeman, he had no respect for toters.

Supposed reduction in crime is not due to you guys playing cowboys.

[rl6214]

75. Another example of your wild fantasy

The SUPPOSED reduction in crime is fact.

[Hoyt]

108. Not due to more cowboys carrying in Chuck E Cheeze, parks, churches, bars, etc.

[X_Digger]

112. Who here has claimed such? n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

92. From my Thread: Common Gun Control Myths.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=387029&mesg_id=387029

You have a fantasy of being a cowboy in the Old West.
Nope. I was raised on a ranch and know what it is like to work cattle. Seriously, I carry because I don't want to be a victim of violent crime.

[cleanhippie]

105. Passing on those family values?

And making things up, to boot! Class act, Hoyt, class act.

[Callisto32]

118. Right.

Because it was HIS place to have the gun, and the respect, right?

Saying your FIL (Father in law?) has no respect for people who are doing something that he is fine with making a living through himself?

That is NOT a flattering picture of a person....

[RSillsbee]

62. What about those of us who have had a mugger

Jump out from behind a car at us? The fact that I had a gun allowed the situation to end w/ no one (him or me) being hurt. Does that count for anything?

[Hoyt]

66. I'm glad you are safe. It is highly likely you'd have been safe without resorting to a gun.

[rl6214]

76. "It is highly likely you'd have been safe without resorting to a gun."

And you have no fucking clue.

[RSillsbee]

78. Maybe, maybe not

Bottom line, I'm not willing to bet my life on it

[rrneck]

110. Hoyt's willing to make that bet though.

Funny that.

[GreenStormCloud]

93. Interesting that YOU are willing to bet HIS life on it. N/T

[cleanhippie]

106. Wow, you just blatantly make shit up, don't you? There's those family values again.

Stay classy.

[Hoyt]

109. Folks here believe their gun saved their life every time they pat it when homeless person approaches

If a real mugger jumped out and stuck a gun to your head, your gun wouldn't do you a lot of good (no matter all the paper targets you've shot and how much posing you've done in front of a mirror). Now, if they are unarmed, or really not a mugger, that gun works miracles. But, you don't need a gun for that in most cases.

Stay classy yourself.

[cleanhippie]

111. Wow, you just keep making shit up. Why do you do that?

[RSillsbee]

114. Nice of you to decide for me

I was walking into my apartment one morning(really wasn't optional I had to be there) still dark out. Crack head comes up from behind a parked car three cars away from me making direct eye contact and heading straight for me. (I was there, you weren't I saw his eyes and he wasn't some random panhandler)

I had a .32 gun in my pocket full of fun (no razor in my shoe though) and had my hand on it as I was walking. Bad guy saw the gun come out of my hoodie pocket, turned 45 degrees to my left and ran like Hell. Story ends w/ no one injured and no one robbed.

I don't walk around w/ a gun because I have some huge fantasy about killing people, I killed at least two people during the first gulf war and it's not an experience I ever care to repeat. ETA and IMO you must be totally fucked up in the head to assume that (normal,sane, rational,) people out there would want to do that

[cleanhippie]

123. RS, you are not dealing with "(normal,sane, rational,)"

when talking to most of the ones that want to ban 'em, especially this one. Ever read his HuffPo article? Absolute GOLD, I tell you.

[RSillsbee]

131. I not only read his huff po article

I think I posted it on Gunrightsmedia.org (Oleg Volk's new civil liberties website)I know someone did and it recieved rave reviews (not)

[friendly_iconoclast]

128. I'll be blunt: You are not omniscient, and you do *not* know how strangers think.

The fact that you have a certain preexisting audience for your political opinions in other forums, along with working in the

entertainment industry has, I believe, led you to overestimate your own wisdom.


You are, of course, free to believe your own publicity.


But I have some words of caution for you if you think that attention from others correlates with intelligence.

Those words are: Sheen, Palin, Bachmann, and Beck.


In other words- You need to get over yourself.

[Hoyt]

133. Pro-gunners aren't strangers. Known many for many years. All pretty much same with respect to guns

[rl6214]

72. Project much?

You have moved beyond ridiculous into the assinine range.

[hack89]

16. No - just an acceptable exercise of civil rights. nt

[Arctic Dave]

21. Gun ownership is not a "civil right", it is a constitutional one.

[hack89]

40. So the Bill of Rights has nothing to do with civil rights? Really? nt

[pipoman]

70. Actually, it is a civil liberty by definition..

[petronius]

22. Based on the definition implied in your edit, I have many idols in my house

Of them all, the surfboard is the deity that I 'worship' most frequently (and, in fact, the one that comes closest to a religious experience). It's also stored up high, visibly, in a place of honor - the supreme deity, I suppose. The guns are stored low, out of sight - gods of the underworld, or just minor, unimportant deities? The scuba gear is also visible, but at a lower level than the surfboard. A lesser god than the board? On the other hand, the scuba gear rites often involve travel to more distant locations - perhaps it represents a messenger-god?

And of course, the laptop is constantly in use and almost never leaves my side. Is it a god? Priest? Familiar?

Clearly, now that you mention it, there is a complex religious system in my household - this requires more study...

(Or to answer your question another way: guns aren't idols, nobody conceives of them that way, and shooting activities are not analogous to religion in the slightest.)

[Arctic Dave]

28. Excellent response.

Do you contribute "protection" from your surfboard? Also, do you feel uncomfortable if you do not have one with you?

[petronius]

36. The Sacred Board provides significant protection in certain circumstances. And, if I inexplicably

found myself in a turbulent near-shore environment without it, I imagine I'd feel distinctly uncomfortable. Plus, I've noted that when I don't carry my surfboard talisman the god expresses anger by tormenting me - generally by placing epic waves before me to taunt my eyes and sear my soul...

[Arctic Dave]

39. Do not anger the the surfer bra god of epic waves and tubes.

Or ye shall be cast to a land of flat washed out seashores.

[petronius]

47. Truly. For he is passive-aggresive and quick to anger

Also a jealous god - if you neglect the rites too long, in favor of other deities, he will surely grind your face into the sand or bash you upside the head with the sacred emblem...

[xchrom]

23. Yes. Nt

[ZombieHorde]

27. Answer to the new question...

I don't go to houses of worship, and I don't own any firearms, so both are extremely unlikely. I would rather go to a shooting range than to a church, but I have no desire to go to shooting ranges.

I mostly come to the gungeon because I like to argue.

[RSillsbee]

63. I mostly come to the gungeon because I like to argue.

Hey, at least you are straight up about it and polite . Let me know if you ever come to Colorado I'll take you shooting

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Fail based on silly premise and poor wording

[Arctic Dave]

31. Silly for whom? You? Whay makes you the authority?

Explain your position.

[jody]

30. Not nearly as much as those who believe each gun is a demon; an evil, sentient thing just waiting

to kill and maim anyone who doesn't wave a cross to make them flee.

[Arctic Dave]

32. To late, this angle has been used already.

The concept you speak of is more dogma then idolatry.

OR, are you saying in an ever so clever way that they are competing religions? You are a sly dog.

[jody]

41. You could be right. Some anti-RKBA types remind me of Westboro Baptist fanatics. nt

[Arctic Dave]

42. God hates gun idolators?

I'm sure some of them would like that slogan.

[rrneck]

33. Neither. Non sequitur flamebait. nt

[Arctic Dave]

34. Where is the flame?

So far the conversation has been very interesting.

[rrneck]

51. The flame is in

your need to idolize your own blinkered ideology. Learn how to discuss an issue like an adult. Here's a hint: phrase your idea without trying to score petty points off people for your own and others amusement. That kind of self congratulatory cheerleading to the exclusion of the sensibilities of others to demonize or belittle them is how most religions work.

Go light a candle until you learn how to behave.

[Arctic Dave]

52. Your post suggest you did not read the entire thread.

Enlightened you will be.

[rrneck]

53. Enlightened I am.

I read it. You have been shown common courtesy far beyond the implications of your OP. Be grateful.

[spin]

43. Has car ownership in the U.S become an acceptable form of Idolatry?

2011 Corvette Stingray Concept car


2011 Mercedes-Benz CL-Class


2011 Cadillac CTS Coupe

I personally believe that you have a better chance of finding the divine within yourself than you do in a modern church. Consequently I don't attend church services. I am more inclined to watch football or golf (if Tiger Woods is playing) on Sunday. Shooting is a weekday or Saturday sport for me.

[Arctic Dave]

44. I believe they have. Even when presenting fact that they are detrimental

we still use them.

Although, they are hard to conceal carry. I just don't feel safe without my Lexus. Especially in a rough neighborhood or being out after dark. ;)

[spin]

49. I think people idolize cars more than firearms ...

they are much more expensive and demand more regular sacrifice than firearms do.

My firearms will wait contentedly in my safe until I decide to use them. My vehicle will refuse to run unless I start it occasionally and without use will deteriorate faster than my firearms and ammunition.

[Arctic Dave]

54. One could say that both have an irrational level of demand.

Would you rather live without a car or a gun? Purely abstract question.

Edit:
I will give my answer so you don't think this is a bait question.

I would rather live without a car.

[Hoyt]

67. It won't take much. Put a 50mm in those and sales will boom.

[ileus]

45. And there would be something wrong if it were true?

[Arctic Dave]

56. Good question. Would it?

[benEzra]

50. Are you more likely to read a book on the weekend or go to a house of worship?

Are you more likely to go ride a bicycle on the weekend or go to a house of worship? And so on.

Being more likely to ____ than to go to a house of worship doesn't mean you venerate ____ as a deity, IMO.

As for me, I don't regularly attend a house of worship because I had a very, very bad experience with organized religion, and haven't found a place I'm comfortable with within a reasonable driving distance. So while I am a nondenominational Christian by persuasion, I am more likely on any given weekend to do just about anything than to attend a church.

[Arctic Dave]

55. Valid reasons.

I myself would not go to any house of worship. I try not to encumber myself with god concepts for the most part. Reality is a pretty neat experience for me.

However, for this coversation lets think about how the firearm is giving the stature being able to give someone the feeling of safety and or security. Do you think any of those other activities do the same for ther participants?

[benEzra]

116. There are two separate issues here that are perhaps being conflated:

(1) the enjoyment of firearms-related activities on a weekend, and the relative likelihood of such enjoyment vs. attending the designated place of worship of an organized religion, and

(2) the sense of a net security benefit that possession of and competence with a firearm can provide.

Reassurance is not a quality inherent to firearms, and it is not a religious quality. I am reassured by the fire extinguishers in my kitchen and car, my CPR training, my homeowner's insurance, the comprehensive GEICO policy on my vehicles, my car's very good tires/aftermarket ceramic composite brakes/general crashworthiness, and my competence with the defensive tools I own (firearm and otherwise). That doesn't mean I worship my fire extinguishers or GEICO or my Michelins.

Looking at most religions (both historical and modern), it seems to me that on balance, humans are somewhat more likely to worship things they fear than things that reassure them, although both certainly occur.

[aikoaiko]

58. Gun ownership doesn't even come close to idolatory.

[Arctic Dave]

65. OK, explain why?

[aikoaiko]

71. I've never seen anyone worship a gun as a god.

Idolatry implies action in the metaphysical realm. Carrying a firearm and using it to defend (or save) yourself is action in the physical world.

edited any to anyone

[Arctic Dave]

74. Fair enough.

[TPaine7]

69. All forms of idolatry are acceptable in the US; see the First and Fourteenth Amendments. n/t

[Arctic Dave]

77. So to you it is a form of idolatry? Not that it matters.

[TPaine7]

79. If a believer treasures gun rights above a relationship with the Deity,

theologically speaking, it would be idolatry. Religiously unacceptable, but in our civic system, perfectly legitimate. And rightly so.

[Arctic Dave]

81. I would think it was less about the rights but more the object itself.

[X_Digger]

80. When did you stop beating your wife?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question

Discuss.

[Arctic Dave]

82. If your afraid of he question that's OK.

Stand back and enjoy the conversation.

[X_Digger]

83. Your lame attempt at an implied insult in the OP has been duly noted and dismissed. n/t

[Arctic Dave]

84. Sorry you feel that way.

[villager]

85. This thread, of course, makes the original point even starker

"Doth protest too much," etc..

[AtheistCrusader]

86. I'm going to need a much bigger caliber.

[Remmah2]

89. Are you implying athiest are gun owners?

Yup.

[onehandle]

91. They don't worship the gun. They worship the fleeting 'power' of the gun.

From 'Grand Canyon:'

So I'm askin' you a favour
for the second time.

Let me go my way here.

I'm gonna grant you that favour.

And I'm gonna expect you
to remember this if we ever meet again.

- Yeah.
- But first...

...you gotta answer one more thing for me,
and you gotta tell me the truth.

Are you askin' me a favour
as a sign of respect...

...or are you askin' me a favour
cos I got the gun?

Man, the world ain't supposed
to work like this.

I mean, maybe you don't know that,
but this ain't the way it's supposed to be.

I'm supposed to be able to do my job
without asking you if I can.

That dude is supposed to be able to wait
with his car without you rippin' him off.

Everything's supposed to be
different than what it is.

So what's your answer?

You don't have the gun,
we ain't havin' this conversation.

That's what I thought. No gun, no respect.

That's why I always got the gun.

[Atypical Liberal]

100. This would imply a belief in magic.

Has gun ownership in the US become an acceptable form of Idolatry?

From your link:

"Idolatry is the worship of a physical object as a god."

This would imply a belief in magic or superstition, which I don't have. I don't believe in gods or magic, or ghosts, or any other irrational belief, so it would not be possible for me to worship any physical object as if it were some sort of magical entity.

[Kennah]

120. I don't see any evidence of idolatry, but ...

... I occasionally see a gun treated as a talisman, and that's very dangerous.

[Euromutt]

124. The answer to your "are you more likely" question is the latter option...

...but not because I idolize guns. I'm an atheist, and the chances of my attending any form of organized worship on weekends is close to zero. Because I am a gun owner, and I enjoy shooting, the chance of my going to the range, or doing some maintenance on my guns, or trying to reorganize the clutter in my gun safe, is significantly more than zero, making it the more likely option.

But it's by no means a given that I will spend a given weekend doing anything involving firearms at all.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

125. are you more likely to sit in your church and fantasize about your neighbor's wife?

well........................are you?

[spin]

136. When my ex wife used to drag me to church ...

I have to admit that I was guilty of that.

I also used to set the alarm on my watch to go off after one hour. Several weeks later I noticed that a number of watches were alarming after one hour. The minister used to get a little long winded.

[cleanhippie]

130. Yes, but only to those who want to ban them.

[MicaelS]

132. Like a number of other people here, I'm not religious...

So given a choice ONLY between the two, yes, I would be doing something that involves guns.

Having said that, rather than guns, I would almost certainly be involved with tinkering with my computers. I held off buying one for years, knowing I would become obsessed withe them. Now, most of my disposable time and income goes into tinkering with my computers. Like some people tinker with their cars. And that's just at home. I use computers 40 hours a week at work. So between work and home, I figure I spend about 70 hours a week involved with some form of computer (ab)use.

Guns have fallen down my list of properties. In fact, they have fallen so far, I sold all of them except for a single Glock 17. I had to, you see, to feed the computer monkey on my back.

But I still like arguing about guns. And the single best reason to own a gun, after personal and family defense is to to thoroughly piss off those who are anti-gun.