School of Glock- a must read

[jpak]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/opinion/10collins.html

<snip>

Well, in Florida, a state representative has introduced a bill that would impose fines of up to $5 million on any doctor who asks a patient whether he or she owns a gun. This is certainly a new and interesting concept, but I don’t think we can classify it as a response to Tucson. Jason Brodeur, the Republican who thought it up, says it’s a response to the health care reform act.

A sizable chunk of this country seems to feel as though there is nothing so secure that it can’t be endangered by Obamacare. It’s only a matter of time before somebody discovers that giving everyone access to health insurance poses a terrible threat to the armed forces, or the soybean crop, or poodles.

<snip>

Actual responses to the Tucson shooting — that is, something that might actually stop similar tragedies in the future or reduce the carnage — seem to be limited to a proposal in Congress to ban the sale of the kind of ammunition clip that allowed the gunman to fire 31 shots in 15 seconds. That bill is stalled at the gate. Perhaps Congress has been too busy repeatedly voting on bills to repeal the health care law to think about anything else. But, so far, the gun-clip ban has zero Republican supporters, which is a problem given the matter of the Republicans being in the House majority.

Meanwhile in the states, legislation to get more guns in more places (public libraries, college campuses) is getting a more enthusiastic reception.
The nation’s state legislators seem to be troubled by a shortage of things they can do to make the National Rifle Association happy. Once you’ve voted to allow people to carry guns into bars (Georgia), eliminated the need for getting a permit to carry a concealed weapon (Arizona) and designated your own official state gun (Utah — awaiting the governor’s signature), it gets hard to come up with new ideas.

<more>

:thumbsup:

[HopeHoops]

1. What next? Wait! I've got it! A bill requiring ALL public kindergarten kids to carry machine guns

Unfortunately, we just had an incident in the elementary my kids went to (quite suburban middle-class) where a 4th grader brought a loaded handgun to school, apparently with the intent of killing the 4th grader who had been bullying him. The safety was on and his teacher was able to address the situation without incident, but that's still a bit disturbing.

[Taitertots]

3. I'd say the disturbing part is the bullying at your school...

is so bad that a 4th grade child sees the only way out as using a gun.
It is also disturbing that a parent is so neglectful that a 4th grader has uninhibited access to loaded handguns.

[HopeHoops]

9. Bullying was normal when I was in elementary school - 2nd grade in particular.

I'm 47 now and that was the first year this school was open in the very young community of Columbia, MD. Access to the gun is disturbing, but this is also a very Republican area and bumper stickers like, "My wife, yes. My dog, maybe. My gun, NEVER!" are fairly common.

[Taitertots]

18. I don't think bullying is acceptable. Do you?

Normal when you were a kid doesn't make it right. We can't afford to repeat the same known errors, causing untold psychological damage to children for no good reason.

[HopeHoops]

19. No, of course not. It was wrong then (and long before) and is still wrong.

But I think it might be worse now. That's what the kids are exposed to on TV, at least since the Fairness Doctrine was revoked. How can you expect a child of Republicans to be civil when the house is filled with FOX and Limbaugh hate crap? Sure, I don't know that the kids were from a GOP family, but around here there's a good chance they both were.

[rl6214]

27. Obviously you and the other parents at your school

suck at being parents.

[Taitertots]

2. That author is pathetically ignorant or intentionally lying to you

"The gun lobby will never be happy, unless the health care law specifically requires every American to have a pistol on his or her person at all times."

The gun lobby has actively supported the vast majority of gun control regulations. Claiming this proves that the author is actively lying or so ignorant that they are not worth listening to.

[rfranklin]

4. Are you referring to the NRA?

Your post is a bit confusing.

[Taitertots]

13. Yes, the NRA supports the vast majority of gun control legislation

While being opposed to egregious and capricious gun laws. The NRA supports limiting gun purchases to 18+. They support the NICS to background check gun purchases. They support harsh restrictions on assault rifles, sawed of shotguns, and short barreled rifles.

The NRA has been instrumental in the passage all the reasonable restrictions to gun ownership.

[flamin lib]

6. Your subject line is ad honinem. nt

[petronius]

8. Strictly speaking, it's not. An ad hominem argument bases rejection of a premise

on the character or attributes of the speaker. Pointing out (however harshly) flawed or incorrect claims within the statement doesn't qualify.

See this thread for an example of the fallacy...

[flamin lib]

10. So being called "pathetically ignorent" isn't a rejection based on

an attribute of the speaker? Calling the author an intentional liar isn't an attack on her character?

So it's only ad hominem if directed at those supporting the gun side of the argument?

[petronius]

11. No. In this case it's an insult based on the rejection of a flawed comment

The ad hominem fallacy would start from the characteristic rather than arrive at it.

Examples:

Ad hominem - "Petronius is known to be a liberal, so what he just posted is obviously complete bullshit, and can be rejected without consideration."

Not ad hominem - "What Petronius just posted is clearly incorrect (here's why), so that dude must be an ignorant tool or deliberately deceptive."

See the difference?

[Taitertots]

16. The rejection isn't based on the insult, the insult is based on the rejection

The author is making statements that are known/should be known to be false. Making these statements means that the author is lying or is ignorant of the topic.

[Taitertots]

14. You don't understand what that means

The author isn't wrong because they are pathetically ignorant. They are wrong because the gun lobby supports the vast majority of gun control legislation. That they would say otherwise means they are liars or pathetically ignorant.

[flamin lib]

24. All of these justifications for attacking the author's intelligence,

character and motivation are sooooooo fucking lame I reject them out of hand. Does that give me the right to characterize the posters as so totally blinded by ideology that they all suffer from cranial rectal inversion?

No, it doesn't, but to open a dissenting comment with such personal characterizations is an attempt to distract from the information in the OP ED, not to counter it. Besides, to offer a counter opinion (gun lobby supports the vast majority . . . ) without evidence carries exactly as much weight as the opinion it counters.

Ya' gotta do better than leading with personal insults and following with unsubstantiated claims.

[petronius]

25. At least you now understand what an ad hominem is, and why your accusation was incorrect, right?

[krispos42]

5. yeah, well, the Florida law sucks

$5 million. Ridiculous.

[spin]

12. I live in Florida and have little problem with a doctor asking me if I own a firearm ...

I love the opportunity to discuss my hobby.

[krispos42]

20. Well, casual conversation is one thing

But you know that insurance companies would LOVE to have a reason to charge you more for premiums.

[spin]

22. True. Somehow the healthcare system I envisioned when I voted for Obama ...

never emerged from Congress.

We had the most expensive healthcare system in the world and it appears like it will only be more expensive in the immediate future.

The insurance companies love ANY excuse to raise their rates and their profits.

[VoteProgressive]

7. Thanks for posting. Many good points made in the article. The pro-gun...

side is as radical as the anti-gun side is.

Of course neither will admit it.

[Katya Mullethov]

15. Many are operating under the mistaken belief

That if the let us keep our guns , then they get to keep the money .

[GreenStormCloud]

17. A standard capacity magazine can be swapped in less than one second.

The Luby's killer and the VT killer both killed lots more people using standard magazines. The simply reloaded quickly.

[friendly_iconoclast]

21. Apparently, some believe the victims of a spree killer are less dead...

...if the murderer is forced to reload more often. They never do quite explain how this is supposed to work...

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

26. The OPINION pages, chock full of facts and figures

NOT

Just more spam from our most talented spamster.

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YUP