Judge: Suit over mall shooting gun sale can go on

[jpak]

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9LM01RO0.htm

A state judge on Monday said a pawnshop owner will face a civil trial over whether a gun used in a Utah mall shooting that killed five people was sold illegally.

Third District Judge Glenn K. Iwasaki in Salt Lake City said in a statement that disputed facts on whether the gun was intended to be used as a shotgun will move the case to a jury trial. Both sides said they expect the case to go to trial next year.

Carolyn Tuft, whose daughter died in the 2007 shooting at Trolley Square in Salt Lake City, is suing the pawn shop that sold one of the guns authorities say Sulejman Talovic used in the attack.

Daniel Vice, an attorney with Washington D.C.-based Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence who is representing Tuft, said the weapon -- equipped with a pistol grip instead of a standard shoulder stock -- was not actually a shotgun and was therefore illegal to sell to anyone under 21 years old.

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[baldguy]

1. What's the definition of "responsible"?

[friendly_iconoclast]

2. More to the point: What's the legal definition of "shotgun" under Federal law?

Hint: It isn't what Daniel Vice and the Bradys claim it is...

[jeepnstein]

5. 18 inch barrel and 26 inch overall length.

Most pistol grip only shotguns run around 28 or so inches which makes it a shotgun and not a pistol.

[X_Digger]

7. There's also USC 921(a)(5)-

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000921----000-.html

(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

There's also USC 922(b)(1)-

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

[jeepnstein]

13. Deleted. I stand corrected.

[krispos42]

3. Ah, so now long guns are hand guns.

And since the Bradys want to tightly control handguns...

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

4. It's always been my understanding that a pistol gripped shotgun is 21 or older.

Regardless fo whether the shop will erroneously sell it to you... I'm pretty sure that you gotta be 21 to a shotgun in pistol grip only configuration. However, a shotgun with a stock may be converted to pistol grip only by somone younger than 21.

I think the pawn shop will get convicted.

[PavePusher]

6. Cite to law? n/t

[-..__...]

8. How the ATF interprets it...

It's a little murky; it is prohibited (by an FFL), to sell a shotgun with an attached pistol grip to anyone under 21... however, it is allowed to sell
a shotgun with both a stock and a pistol grip.

The way I'm reading it, is that as long as the pistol grip isn't attached at the time of sale... the transfer is legal.

If transferee later attaches the pistol grip, that is legal also (the provisions of quoted regulations and the GCA , only pertains to what an FFL can or can not do... not the guns owner)...

AGE RESTRICTION REMINDER
Licensees are reminded that certain commercially
produced “shotguns” do not fall within the
definition of shotgun under the GCA. Firearms
such as the Mossberg Model 500 Camper,
Persuader 500 and all other makes and models,
which come equipped with a pistol grip in place
of the butt stock, are not shotguns under the GCA.
Therefore, they cannot be sold or delivered by a
licensee to any person less than 21 years of age.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-1998-08.pdf

“Shotguns” with pistol grips attached
In the last ATF Newsletter (August 1998) an
article stated shotguns with pistol grips and no
shoulder stocks attached were restricted to
persons 21 years of age or older if being sold by a
Federal firearms licensee. This requirement is
specified in 27 CFR § 178.99(b) and 18 U.S.C.
922(b)(1) (www.atf.treas.gov/core/regulations/
27cfr178.html), which states that if the firearm to
be transferred is “other than a rifle or shotgun”
then the purchaser must be 21 years of age. The
definition of a shotgun under the GCA <18 U.S.C.[br />§ 921(a)(5)] is a weapon “intended to be fired
from the shoulder.” With the pistol grip in lieu of
the shoulder stock, this weapon is not designed to
be fired from the shoulder, and therefore is not a
shotgun.
Questions have been raised about those firearms
that are supplied with both a pistol grip and a
shoulder stock. If the firearm is sold with the
shoulder stock then the firearm is intended to be
fired from the shoulder and would be considered a
shotgun. The shoulder stock does not necessarily
have to be attached at the time. Persons 18 years
of age or older may purchase those firearms from
licensees.
Other questions raised pertain to entries made in
the licensee’s required records as to firearm
“type” if not shotgun. These entries may indicate
the firearm type simply as Title I.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-1999-02.pdf

[PavePusher]

11. Gah... Thanks for the cite.

I'd say it's more proof that the BATFE needs to be evicserated and decapitated.

Stupid laws intended to entrap Citizens into manufactured crimes.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

17. Thanks. I've heard that before (from an FFL, in fact) but never saw the citation.

[RamboLiberal]

9. IMHO this one is arguing like the stupid AWB a cosmetic feature

At the heart of the controversy is whether the Mossberg 88 pistol-grip 12-gauge weapon sold to Talovic qualifies under the legal definition as a "shotgun." It is illegal to sell a firearm to a person under 21, with the exception of shotguns and rifles.

The weapon Talovic bought came with a pistol grip. Plaintiffs say that made the sale of the gun illegal. The defense, however, argued the gun was made to be fired from either a pistol grip or from the shoulder, thus qualifying it as a shotgun.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705367622/Trolley-Square-gun-case-to-go-to-full-jury.html?pg=1

Vice disagreed, saying any teen looking to buy a pistol-grip shotgun should automatically raise red flags.

"It's a weapon of mass destruction. It's not a hunting weapon," he said. "If a teenager walks into your gun store and buys this weapon, you are liable for the harm that results."

In a similar lawsuit by Trolley Square victim Stacy Hanson, a judge in Provo ruled Jan. 31 that the weapon was not a shotgun, since it's not designed to rest against the shooter's shoulder.

Hansen said he believed the judge got the ruling wrong.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/705366649/Judge-takes-civil-suit-in-Trolley-Square-massacre-under-advisement.html

Vice told the judge that a pistol grip gun like the one sold to Talovic is more dangerous than a normal shotgun because it causes indiscriminate firing so it is not ideal for sporting and should not be sold to anyone under 21.

Iwasaki did not say when he would decide whether the pawn shop should stand trial.

http://www.necn.com/02/14/11/Lawyer-Pawn-shop-illegally-sold-gun-used/landing_politics.html?&blockID=3&apID=54773e4c86ef40a1bc481b2894a92057

That pistol grip did not make the shotgun any more or less efficient and did not make it a pistol.

Indiscriminate firing?

[AtheistCrusader]

10. Hell, I've blown clays to smithereens with a pistol grip shotgun.

Why wouldn't you be able to use it for sporting? That doesn't make any sense.

[RamboLiberal]

12. Must be a Brady Bunch type attorney throwing around

terms like "indiscriminate firing" and "weapon of mass destruction" because of a pistol grip!

[rl6214]

14. What is the barrel length of the shotgun?

If it is 18 inches or longer, it does not matter about the pisto grip, if it is shorter than 18 in it may indeed be classified as a pistol.

I have an AR15 with no butt stock and a 7in barrel. It was built and listed as a pistol on the 4473 form when I purchased the lower reciever.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

16. The barrel can actually be shorter than 18" if there is a pistol grip and Overall length is 26in+

It must have come from the factory with a pistol grip and never had a stock installed and overall length of gun must be 26 inches or greater. In such a case, the barrel length does not matter because the firarm (sans stock) is not a "shotgun".

There was a big thread about it over on ARFcom. Basically, with the above configuration you can have a 16.25" barreled mossberg 500 without the need to register it as an AOW or SBS.

[rl6214]

18. Thanks for the clarification

n/t

[Ken_Fish]

15. Great. When they loose just more brady money and time in the toilet.

the shooter is responsible.