Man Pulls Gun in Bar Fight, Lands Behind Bars

[jpak]

http://ozarksfirst.com/fulltext?nxd_id=403246

<snip>

Deputies say Sloan got into an argument with a bartender at Gaston's Resort.

The bartender had allegedly asked Sloan to leave.

Deputies say Sloan then head-butted the bartender and pulled out a loaded gun.

A customer at the resort heard the fight and managed to take the gun out of Sloan's hand before it went off.

<more>

moran

yup

more details of the moran's responsible gun ownership...

http://www.kait8.com/Global/story.asp?S=14018634

According to Baxter County Sheriff's Office, James Michael Sloan of Holiday Island, who was a guest at the resort, became upset with one of the bar employees and was asked to leave. Sloan paid his bill and left, but later returned and began arguing and making threats.

The sheriff's office press release says Sloan later head butted and began fighting with a restaurant employee and pulled a loaded handgun. The gun was later taken by a patron of the restaurant without the gun being fired.

Sloan was charged with Aggravated Assault, a felony, and carrying a weapon, which is a misdemeanor. Sloan was released on $50,000 bond.

[armueller2001]

1. Haha really?

"Moran"?

Take a look in the mirror. And then maybe a spelling guide.

Criminal carries gun into bar, most likely illegally. Proceeds to get intoxicated while carrying, also illegal. Assaults people, also illegal. He will be prosecuted, just like people who commit criminal acts often are. Nothing new.

yup

[baldguy]

7. Carrying a gun into a bar should also be illegal.

[AtheistCrusader]

27. It is illegal in that state. Try and keep up.

[RSillsbee]

51. Why?

Just because you enter a bar doesn't mean you're going to drink. I would agree it should be illegal to drink while carrying a gun but just going in a Bar?

nup

[jpak]

70. Yeah - most folks that go to bars do it to display handguns and not drink

sheesh

[RSillsbee]

74. I never said anything about displaying a gun in a bar

I agree w/ you there. OC in a bar is just asking for some drunken idiot to get up in your face, but if I'm not drinking anywhy why does it matter if I'm in a bar or not?

[jpak]

8. Yup - MORAN - like this guy...

DU much?

:rofl:

[bluerum]

11. The spelling of moran has historical relevance. Review DU definitions and terms.

http://demopedia.democraticunderground.com/

Looks like the demopedia has been decomissioned. Search for 'the moran guy'.

That aside, getting yourself kicked out of a public venue, going to get a gun an coming back to pick a fight so you can pull said gun definitly qualifies.

[11 Bravo]

13. "Moran" has a long and storied history at DU. It's not a misspelling.

[Boswell]

18. yes, you are a moran

[texshelters]

64. Whose life did the gun save

in this case?

I didn't know spelling was a forensic tool.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[sasha031]

2. so lucky the bartender wasn't shot

carrying a weapon in a bar should be a felony.

[armueller2001]

3. Pretty sure it is.

[KeepItReal]

5. "More States Allowing Guns In Bars"

"Tennessee is one of four states, along with Arizona, Georgia, and Virginia, that recently enacted laws explicitly allowing loaded guns in bars. (eighteen other states allow weapons in restaurants that serve alcohol).

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/04/us/04guns.html

(edited to fix title and add quote)

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

47. Oh, what a great idea!

Drunk people with guns! :sarcasm:

[armueller2001]

57. Where is it legal to get drunk with a gun?

[YllwFvr]

67. my state

pennsylvania. I go the bar sometimes, but since I dont drink in public I am the DD, and I conceal. If I want a beer with my dinner I go to a Fridays type place that wont be full of drunks, and depending on how long I am there I will limit myself to one or two short glasses. One if I will be there for less than an hour. IMO "buzzed" is drunk, so I wont do that either. But I know a few guys who will get smashed and carry. Not smart I dont think, but its a choice they make.

[texshelters]

65. Yea, guns in bars!

Next, guns in civil courts during divorce proceedings.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[jpak]

6. nope - misdemeanor

:thumbsdown:

[socialist_n_TN]

9. Not if the Legislature and NRA in MY red state..........

has anything to say about it. They want to make guns legal EVERYWHERE. School grounds, bars, parks, etc. EVERYWHERE. Then we get idiots like this, who want to fight everybody, but are too drunk to actually DO it and have to pull that gun. Several somebodies are going to get killed over this. I just hope it's the idiots that want to start something, but it won't be. It'll be some innocent bystander or worse some innocent CHILD bystander.

I worked for 30+ years in some of the most redneck dives in the WORLD for some of the most redneck bar owners in the world and NONE of them thought that guns in bars was a good idea.

BTW, I AM a gun owner myself. But I also have had a LOT of training in fighting arts. Enough training to know that you don't do it if there's ANY way to avoid it. IOW, don't fight unless attacked PHYSICALLY. I certainly wouldn't attack PHYSICALLY if I was asked to leave a business establishment NO MATTER HOW "IN THE RIGHT" I THOUGHT I WAS!

[Boswell]

19. you just embrace your inner stoopid

don't you?

[AtheistCrusader]

It is a crime in Arkansas.

It is an additional crime to consume alcohol while carrying.

[Hangingon]

62. The perp was charged with a felony.

[baldguy]

4. Mixing guns & bars is insanity

[PavePusher]

10. Only when the carrier is insane or intends criminality.

When done by peaceful people, it doesn't seem to be a problem.

If you can document that places that allow it have a higher instance of shootings than places that don't, or that their crimes rates go up, then you'll have a talking point. Otherwise, you have naught but vapour in the wind.

[jpak]

14. By that logic, someone should have pulled their gun and shot the moran

dumb

stupid

yup

[PavePusher]

28. When you accidently use logic, someone here will be sure to let you know. n/t

[jpak]

36. But that IS open carry/CCW logic - if everyone carries, everyone can shoot to defend

mayhem

blood

death

yup

[PavePusher]

41. And those things have increased.... where? when? n/t

[jpak]

48. ummmm...do gun advocates want MORE people carrying open or with CCW permits - or not?

:shrug:

[PavePusher]

58. I may have been unclear, sorry.

I was refering to your...

"mayhem

blood

death"

...accusation.

[safeinOhio]

54. Here are a few

http://www.macombdaily.com/articles/2009/03/04/news/srv0000004826722.txt

All three suspects had legal permission to carry their guns with them, but all three had been drinking and that may have played a role in their decision to start shooting at each other while they drove along the freeway, police said Tuesday.

"To be involved in a road rage episode where another driver might challenge you to pull over and settle things is scary enough," said Macomb County Sheriff Mark Hackel.

"But when you add drinking and handguns into the mix and then they started shooting at each other, I don't know how any one of them would justify their actions.

[PavePusher]

59. I ask again...

does this represent an increase in such incidents?

[safeinOhio]

61. I think so.

Can't find any data as none seems to be collected. However the googles shows a bunch for the last few years. Search of news reports is the only clue we have.
I'm, in no way against CCWs. I do feel that the 12 hours of training and test that no one fails need to be addressed. Just like CDL holders, I think random drug and alcohol testing may help remind those that carry not to partake.

[Hangingon]

63. Nope it is NOT CCW/CHL/Open carry logic.

Thake a chl course or read the law. Shooting is the last resort. In this case - your cite - the perp was disarmed without the need for shooting.

Reading failure again.

Yup

[texshelters]

66. Too bad no one has invented

an insanity or stupidity scanner to keep those people out of bars.

I don't know about you, but most people go into bars to drink, right? And drinking impairs judgment, right? http://media.www.sccollegian.com/media/storage/paper773/news/2007/04/12/HealthColumn/Excessive.Drinking.Impairs.Judgement-2838523.shtml

So why should it be allowed, a gun in a bar?

Oh, I get it, if you ban guns and drinks, only the criminal alcoholics will get drunk.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[PavePusher]

76. I know lots of people who go to bars...

and drink water, soda, juice, coffee, etc., but no alcohol.

Why should they be restricted from bearing arms by state law? Let the bar owners/operators decide for themselves. It seems to work where it is practiced.

[texshelters]

85. I know them too

but the majority go to drink alcohol.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[armueller2001]

12. Regardless of if the state allows people who are

legally permitted to carry firearms to carry them in places where alcohol is served (restaurants, bars, etc) IT IS STILL ILLEGAL EVERYWHERE TO CARRY WHILE INTOXICATED.

It's also illegal to point your gun at people unless there is an "immediate, unavoidable threat of death or severe bodily injury to the innocent".

Why should I be barred from defending myself and my family while eating dinner at Applebees because they have a bar section?

[jpak]

16. So, how do you tell if some asshole is carrying & wants to get drunk - you can't

Banning guns (and cigarettes) from bars is the best option.

If your Applebees is unsafe, don't bring your family there - and don't endanger other patrons with your gun.

yup

[armueller2001]

20. How do you tell if some asshole is carrying

ALREADY and wants to get drunk? You can't. Just like this asshole. Did he have a concealed weapon permit? Doubt it. So, what laws did he break?
1) Carrying without a permit
2) Carrying into a bar
3) Getting intoxicated while carrying
4) Brandishing his firearm
5) Assaulting restaurant staff

Sounds like he didn't give a shit about the law to begin with. But yeah, my rights should be restricted because of him breaking those laws. That's like a maniac driving through a 30mph school zone at 90mph so what do we do? Oh we need to reduce the speed limit to 25mph, that will work!!!

Sorry my crystal ball isn't that accurate to have precognition of violent crime attacks. I prefer to be prepared and take responsibility for myself.

[KeepItReal]

23. You have your right to carry. In your Applebees scenario...

just know you are more likely to get shot by an undercover officer, another packing good samaritan, or a responding law enforcement person because your brandished weapon does not say "Hey I'm the good guy".

Don't forget one of the bystanders in Arizona almost shot one of the heroes that day because he didn't realize the guy holding the weapon had just disarmed the original shooter.

[armueller2001]

25. How do you figure?

Do you have any examples of undercover officers or other CHL holders shooting someone who is defending themselves?

[KeepItReal]

43. I told you the armed bystander in Arizona says he almost shot a victim

Thank goodness he held his fire.

Undercover cops themselves are the most frequent victims of friendly fire:

"A White New York City police officer who shot a Black undercover police officer at a Manhattan subway station recently was convicted of second-degree assault.

Peter Del-Debbio, 33, received an acquittal on a more serious first-degree assault charge for the Aug. 22, 1994, shooting of Officer Desmond Robinson, 32, who is Black.
...
Del-Debbio, who was off duty at the time, stepped onto the subway train after a youth dropped a shotgun on the train, and the weapon discharged. Del-Debbio identified himself as a police officer and went to pick up the shotgun.

Just at that moment, Del-Debbio testified he saw a Black man with a revolver, and shot him--that man turned out to be Robinson. However, during testimony both officers had different accounts of how the shooting actually occurred. Robinson quit the force after the incident."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n22_v89/ai_18190365/

Police Officer Omar Edwards shot in the Back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kua_XMVZg3A

[AtheistCrusader]

33. Ah, but he DIDN'T shoot him.

I'm sure you can cite some instances of undercover officers shooting armed civilians by mistake, or armed 'good samaritans' shooting each other, to support your 'more likely' claim, right?

I'll hold my breath while I wait.

[shadowrider]

53. Nobody in Arizona almost shot anyone. He didn't pull is weapon, didn't point it, didn't brandish

Fact is, he left it in his pocket. He didn't almost shoot anyone.

[KeepItReal]

60. Joe Zamudio says he assumed the wrong person was the shooter at first

and the other victims corrected him.

You're right he didn't pull his weapon out fully.

[baldguy]

24. Did you even bother to *read* the stories linked in the OP?

The only gun-related crime he was charged with was "...carrying a weapon, which is a misdemeanor."

[armueller2001]

30. Just because he was only charged with that crime

does not mean he did not commit other crimes. Do you disagree that it is illegal to carry without a permit, to carry while intoxicated, to brandish a weapon when not acting in self defense?

[baldguy]

38. And a person is guilty of a crime only when he's charged & covicted of that crime.

They're only going to charge him with what they can prove in court.

You're making a whole bunch of assumptions that aren't supported by the facts. The only thing that's obvious here is that bars and guns are a bad combination - which you deny.

[armueller2001]

40. I deny the statement that

LEGALLY carried firearms in bars and restaurants are a bad combination.

Can you provide evidence to confirm that fact?

[baldguy]

46. Again, did you *read* the stories linked in the OP?

If Sloan had a $150 to give to the state to get a permit, he'd be your hero.

[armueller2001]

55. Not hardly.

I'd still think he was an asshole.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. He may still be charged with other crimes.

Also, the competence of the local DA is not at issue here.

[YllwFvr]

69. it is a federal law that you cant carry while drunk?

not that Im aware of

[AtheistCrusader]

31. I don't like leaving my gun in my car where it can be stolen.

Presumably, our former police chief, Gil Kerlikowske's gun is out committing crimes right now, what with it being stolen from his car and all.

It is up to the carrier, not the bar, to adhere to the law. The bar can't know if a person is carrying at all, legally or unlawfully.
It is the responsibility of the carrier not to carry in bars in states where it is illegal, and not to consume alcohol while doing so.

I don't drink. I do have cause to frequent bars where the food is good, or I might be designated driver for my friends. I would like to be able to continue to carry inside the bar. Instead, I must either plan ahead and leave my firearm at home, in the safe, or I must leave it in my car, under current state law.

I am perfectly capable of adhering to the state law not to consume alcohol while carrying. I would like to be ABLE to carry at all, in bars.

[texshelters]

68. There are ways

to secure your gun in your car without worry of theft.

http://www.corporatetravelsafety.com/catalog/info_pages.php?pages_id=31

So that is no excuse.

It's okay if you want your gun in a bar, but we don't need the excuses. Thanks.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[AtheistCrusader]

75. What a joke.

You know it takes about 30 seconds to steal the seats right out of my car right? Helpful to have that safe cabled to the seat rails huh?

Yeah, I could strip the interior and weld a safe to the frame through the pan. Thanks for this astounding revelation. Want to do it for me?

Why don't you get on Kerlikowske's shit for his failure to secure his firearm? My method clearly works. (My vehicles have been broken into, and I've never lost a firearm) Oh right, he's too busy in his new job as Obama's drug czar.

[texshelters]

84. The safest place for a firearm

is at home. Someone's going to steal your seat just to get at a cheap gun. Really?

Wouldn't there be an easier way for a criminal to get a gun? and how will they know you have a gun on board? Are you going to put a sign in the window?

My point was, you can lock up guns, even in a car.

Peace,
Tex Shelters

[Callisto32]

86. The best option is letting the individual bar-owners decide what will be allowed on their premises.

If you don't like that a bar allows cigarettes/guns/karaoke DON'T GO TO THAT BAR.

Simple.

[Vinnie From Indy]

50. You could always use that big bread knife they serve with loaves of bread

Imagine if you will a neighborhood Applebees is bustling with business on warm summer evening. One of the patrons at the bar has been there since noon and is getting quite intoxicated. It has gotten to the level that the bartender refuses to sell him anymore alcohol. The patron angrily protests draws his loaded weapon and fires a round into the ceiling. The reaction is immediate. God fearing, gun-toting patrons of all ages whip out their personal weapons and begin wildly firing while flipping over tables to shield their families and friends. Dinner rolls and popcorn shrimp are raining down everywhere as people blindly fire their weapons from behind the overturned tables. Rounds are crashing through glass wall panels and into the "Chachki" on shelves above the diners heads while the Musak system blares "Muskrat Love" from the overhead speakers. Most in the restuarant are now securely in their makeshift bunkers constructed from what used to be their festive dinner tables. The older ones are holding a steady rate of fire over the table's upturned edge while Grandma and the kids furiously reload weapons from ammo stored in Granny's gargantuan purse.

Just another great night at Applebees - "Eatin' Good in the Neighborhood"!

Cheers!

[rl6214]

81. Wow

did you write for 24 when it was on tv. How is old Jack bauer anyway?

[armueller2001]

22. Can you point to any specific examples where

legally permitted individuals carry into a restaurant or bar and cause a problem?

Or are you just fulla shit?

[Hoyt]

34. Got any citations of needing a gun in Applebees during family hour. Or are you full of. . . . . .

[armueller2001]

37. Sure, these should keep you busy

http://bunow.bloomu.edu/5438-bloomsburg-applebees-shooting-leaves-2-dead

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local-beat/Maryland-State-Trooper-Shot--Killed-96128494.html

http://www.rrstar.com/archive/x1838122438/Suspect-still-sought-in-Rockford-Applebee-s-shooting

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=11&ved=0CBIQFjAAOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wdtn.com%2Fdpp%2Fnews%2FWDTN_Suspect_in_Applebees_shooting_dies&ei=nA9YTZjKFIWcgQf82LHXDA&usg=AFQjCNFa0gJbEMHtiNVlhdryQG2o3OGYIA&sig2=u4joV3VU9uIQ4g53QsJ_YA

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=13&ved=0CCEQFjACOAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wnep.com%2Fwnep-col-shooting%2C0%2C244429.story&ei=nA9YTZjKFIWcgQf82LHXDA&usg=AFQjCNEeL_anmxRRDk1STNXkBqQXqAVZTw&sig2=XpBKk045f7fYb4zXKzSlEQ

Let us not forget that there were no shootings at NIU or VT until... there was a shooting. And like I said previously, unfortunately my crystal ball is not that accurate.

[Hoyt]

45. A cowboy with his gun strapped to his leg wouldn't have made a bit of difference in any of those.

[jpak]

42. There is no need for anyone to bring a gun into a family restaurant

Unless you are a law enforcement officer.

If people are that scared of the real world - they should stay at home with their doors and windows locked.

and cling to their guns there

yup

[armueller2001]

44. But yet you cannot

point to any examples of legally carried firearms in restaurants being a problem.

Nothing you can show to justify a restriction on freedom.

yup

[YllwFvr]

71. what difference does being a LEO make

[rl6214]

82. Law enforcement is not there to defend

they are there to write reports and clean up the mess afterwards.

[armueller2001]

15. Yes, Arkansas law prohibits carrying firearms

into establishments that serve alcohol, unless that place is a restaurant.

"Where Concealed Handguns are Prohibited
It is a violation of the Arkansas Concealed Handgun License law to carry a concealed handgun into any of the locations listed below: Any police, sheriff or Arkansas State Police office. Arkansas Highway Police facility. Detention facility, prison or jail. Courthouse or courtroom. Any polling place. Meeting place of any government entity. Meeting place of any session of the Arkansas General Assembly or committee of the General Assembly. Any athletic event not related to firearms competition in which the license holder is participating. Any part or section of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, except a restaurant.

http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/arkansas-ccw-state-laws.php

[jpak]

17. It was a restaurant - so the moran could carry

yup

[armueller2001]

21. Why did he get charges for illegally carrying?

Probably because he didn't have a permit to carry.

yup

Also, did you notice he left and came back before the assault? That tells me he probably went to his car or back to his room to retrieve his handgun. What law would prevent that from happening?

[jpak]

26. "What law would prevent that from happening?"

The one that needs to be passed

yup

[armueller2001]

29. WHICH IS WHAT LAW?

We get it, we get it... you don't like guns. They're scary. But chances are unless you live in Illinois or Wisconsin, 1 to 2% of the people you pass by every day are carrying concealed and haven't caused a problem yet.

What do you recommend as a solution to prevent incidents such as the one in your OP?

[Katya Mullethov]

32. Any shouting matches or exchanges of strong words

Should trigger a lock down or an "evacuation" of the business or habitation on question . The property owner will be responsible for transportation costs and paddock fees for stowage of the large amount of resulting "suspects" . It's what they're for .

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Be nice if you'd research the law a bit.

When proposing or discussing law. Since you don't know anything about it.

In the portion of 'applebees' that posts a 21 and over only sign for the bar area, you cannot carry. I'll repeat that slower for you: YOU CANNOT CARRY IN A RESTARAUNT IN AREAS THAT ARE DESIGNATED AS BARS.

Unless the applebees are different in that state, they should have posted signs at the bar 'nook' or area, which is separate, from the rest of the general restaraunt.

[JohnnyRingo]

49. Self defense?

This is proof, in at least this incidence, that many who claim they carry "to protect themselves" really do it to give themselves an edge when their mouth gets them in trouble. I say this because the guy knew he had a CW when he began arguing and didn't back off, even when he knew the escalation would ultimately lead to his arrest. He, more than anyone else in the bar, should have been the cooler head that prevailed.

I say stiffer penalties for carrying in liqueur establishments. No one can argue that it's a good environment, or that they would feel safer knowing the drunken jealous husband sitting next to them is packing.

I say this as a lifetime gun owner. I support the 2nd, but I figure if I need to carry a gun everyday to protect myself, I need to review my own lifestyle. CCW laws have created a new class of criminal, those who just want the excuse to shoot someone then scream self defense.

[jpak]

52. ouch!

:thumbsup:

[armueller2001]

56. If you would have read the story,

the man left and came back before assaulting and pulling out his gun, likely he had to go retrieve it from his car or hotel room.

As for your claim that CCW permit holders are just waiting for an excuse to shoot someone and then scream self defense, where does that come from? Are you a mind reader? I'd much rather turn around and walk out of a tense situation than be macho and pull out a gun. It is a last resort to protect my life and my family's.

[JohnnyRingo]

73. I'm a lifetime gun owner and former collector (mostly single action Colts)

I don't have an agenda to ban guns, indeed my youngest is a well stocked collector (he also doesn't carry).

I have several friends here in the Buckeye State who had to run out and buy a handgun the same year they passed the CCW law in Ohio. Of those, one lives in a dangerous neighborhood, but never misses an opportunity to reveal what is supposed to be concealed. In other words, he has a hard time keeping it in his pants, including when he comes to my house (does he think he'll need it here). As an admitted racist, he stocks up on 9mm ammo because he "wants to protect himself when the action begins". I asked if he knew he only gets to kill one person before they come take him and his gun away.

Another friend began "taking the long way to work" after he got his permit, driving through neighborhoods that are known for high crime rates. Fortunately, he got over that without finding himself in legal trouble, but I doubt his ability to responsibly carry a deadly weapon. Apparently there seems to be no legal training or shoot/don't shoot scenarios for obtaining a permit, because my friend never considered what he'd tell the police when they asked why he was so far out of his element when he shot someone. The only thisng that mattered was he thought he had a legal right to kill someoone.

A third friend is a copy-cat of the racist friend. Though he doesn't harbor the intolerance of our mutual friend, he has expressed a desire to gun someone down in rather explicit terms. I fear for his future if he follows through on his plans to arm himself. I'm glad he's not a very motivated individual.

A fourth friend owns a bar and decided he needed "protection". He came to me for advice on what to carry after he passed the CCE class. Knowing that he wasn't very schooled on firearms I pointed him to a compact .380 that would be easily concealed and effective at the close range he would likely require, without the danger of penetrating too many walls when errant rounds began flying. I wanted to protect innocents while giving him the security blanket I doubted he could handle. I also suggested a good quality gun so he could recover his money when he ultimately lost interest. After he finished the class he told me the instructor advised a 9mm because "ammunition is easier to obtain", as if he'd be fending off hordes of invaders after his beer cache. The instructor also suggested that in lieu of gun control he should be able to use a volunteer to sit in the bar with a shotgun on his lap in case of trouble. I pictured this and envisioned the day I'd stop going to bars (the guy in my vision looked like Larry the Cable Guy). The best thing this friend could do is whatever the armed robber tells him to do.

To summarize, most of the people I know who carry either don't know what it's like to shoot someone, but want to find out while staying within the law they barely understand, or they imagine they have the kill instinct of a well trained special forces soldier and the quick draw capability of Doc Holliday and want to test themselves under fire.

Either way, I fear losing friends to the CCW law. The few friends I have who do carry responsibly are the ones I don't know about. In that case, why get a permit if they only use it to save their lives? Who cares what the law says if they're still alive?

[AtheistCrusader]

77. Why do you have openly racist friends?

Que?

[JohnnyRingo]

79. My friends are what they are.

These are people I've known for over 40 years, and like me they've slowly evolved into their current form. Because I seldom see them as much, in some cases the changes seemed sudden and stark, but time is a matter of perspective over a life span. Some have taken a curious path that took them from protesting the Vietnam War, burning our draft cards in the courthouse square, to modern day Tea Party members who advocate John Bolton diplomacy. Calling them out for what they've become is a pointless endeavor at this juncture in our lives.

I've met many more even closer friends along the lengthy trek who's ethos fall more in line with my own viewpoints, but the old friends remain as such. Old friends. I don't make excuses for them, and they don't call me a leftist Commie tree hugging pacifist. At least not to my face.

[friendly_iconoclast]

78. You either need new friends or research the history of states with CCW laws.

Perhaps both....

[rl6214]

83. I think you need to find some new friends

if so many of them are openly racist. Does that make you racist by association?

[spin]

72. I totally disagree with you ...

Many people that I know who have concealed weapons permits and carry, agree that once they started legally carrying a firearm they actually became much more polite.

You don't want to be viewed as provoking a fight that ultimately resulted in your use of a firearm to defend yourself.

Hell, I even quit giving other drivers the finger when they cut me off in traffic.

I have no problem with your decision to not get a concealed carry permit. Just be aware that not everybody is willing or can change their lifestyle merely because there is a chance that they will be attacked because they live or work in an area where violence is common. Also remember people are attacked who live in gated neighborhoods and only go to nice upscale establishments to work, shop or play.

My state doesn't allow me to carry in a bar although I can carry in a restaurant that has a bar. I just have to stay out that portion of the establishment. Other states do allow licensed people to carry in a bar and I really haven't read of many incidents where some fool with a license did something stupid.

I'm sure that the law would have been repealed if it had proven to be a poor idea. So far no states have chosen to do so.

[rl6214]

80. Stupid move, I agree with you he is a MORON

and should have the book thrown at him. Don't know the state but here in Texas you cannot carry if the bar/restaurant earns more that 51% of it's income from alcohol.