Regarding guns on college campuses...

[rrneck]

I don't like it. There should be at least a few places in this country where we all are expected to disarm in the interest of common understanding. Colleges and universities don't just train us to make money and they certainly aren't intended to be a venue for sporting events and drunken revelry. Institutions of higher learning are the fundamental underpinnings of our cultural development and the greatest surety of a peaceful and enlightened society. Guns simply don't belong in such a place.

Colleges and universities are a heady mix of young people with widely varying experience and maturity at a time when their lives are changing with bewildering speed. A successful academic environment depends on this instability to function. Just as a bird that is least inherently stable in flight is the most maneuverable, so too are young minds able to process the experiences that are dumped on their heads in quantities they may never have imagined - if they're lucky. If you don't walk our of a university profoundly changed you didn't get your money's worth.

The presence of a gun in a classroom throws a monkey wrench into an environment that depends on more than just the distribution of facts and figures. The symbolic power of a firearm runs counter to the spirit of academic inquiry. That spirit depends on an attitude of generosity and acceptance, not (even the percieved) threat of force.

Unfortunately, it's perfectly legal.

It's legal because the same people who attend colleges and universities also have to navigate the dangers and vicissitudes of life in the world. So while the presence of a firearm in the classroom only presents the symbolic power of force, on the street it represents real power against those who would do us physical harm. They don't call it an ivory tower for nothing.

Carrying a firearm on a college campus presents one of the most challenging legal and tactical environments I can imagine, and that environment has to be navigated by the some of the least experienced firearms owners out there. Colleges and universities exist at the nexus of the tremendous cultural and human development, which is great for learning because the last thing you want is closure in individual minds and cultures alike. A bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun is the very definition of closure.

The only solution I can come up with in practical terms is to mitigate the impact of the presence of a firearm in the academic environment while preserving the rights of those who wish to carry to defend themselves outside the classroom. Carry concealed. I don't think it's too much to ask to require concealed carry on college campuses. The tactical disadvantages of slightly reduced access or altering one's wardrobe to cover the weapon are minuscule while the advantages are tremendous.

Also, the vast majority of people that carry guns are just people who carry guns. They are not crazed killers ready to snap or deluded rednecks begging for an excuse to shoot somebody. Guns are a fact of life in the world, and it might not hurt for those who have little or no experience with them or those that carry them to be introduced to that fact.

And as far as those carrying go, they're there to learn. Let's teach them about the advantages of soft power over hard. Let's teach them about responsibility and the repercussions of violence. Let's teach them about something more than making money. Let's teach them about the evil that men do and instill in them the hope, however remote, that someday nobody will need a gun. And let's set them to work achieving that dream.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lawodevolution]

2. Carry on campus is the next wave that will sweep across the states in the next few decades

[jpak]

4. No it won't - parents aren't going to spend $50K a year to send their kids to gun infested campuses

nope

They want their kids to be in a *SAFE* gun-free learning environment.

College campuses are not sickfuck NRA social laboratories

nope

[RSillsbee]

35. They want their kids to be in a *SAFE* gun-free learning environment.

Like

Vtech?

NIU ?

LSU?

CU allows CC on campus

Missouri does as well as Utah and Washington state

Any mass shooting in those schools?

Nup Nup

[Hissyspit]

40. Oh, good god.

Learn something about cause-and-effect fallacies.

[RSillsbee]

44. Oh good god

Learn something about how a total ban on firearms at Vtech, LSU U of Alabama and NIU did nothing to slow down the shooters

[Hissyspit]

53. And still no cause and effect shown.

[RSillsbee]

66. And no correlation shown between gun bans and safer campuses NT

[Callisto32]

90. What?

I can tell you what HAS been shown. A gun-free campus policy does not CAUSE gun free campuses, at least not where crazed killers are concerned.

Nobody suggest that anything CAUSED anything.

[jpak]

47. Sshhhh....

((((stop making with the big words already))))

(((lol)))

(((:thumbsup:)))

(((:hi:)))

[oneshooter]

46. Would they be willing to ante up another 10K a year?

For the collage to provide a gun free environment?

Fencing, metal detectors, armed guards, searches of all persons entering the campus, spot checks of all personnel.
The collage would have to take all responsibility for ANY violence on campus.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[jpak]

48. That's what is done in many high schools today - it's all good

"collage"

:rofl:

[oneshooter]

61. So you would support that at all colleges?

Including the acceptance of responsibility for all violence by the college?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Callisto32]

91. "republic"

...of pots and kettles?

[rl6214]

96. Attention spelling police, calling all spelling police

You've lost.

YUP

YUP

YUP

[DWC]

86. You are partly correct

I am the father of 3 daughters and 1 son; all now are college graduates.

I wanted my children to be safe - period.

Assuring that my children had the training in and tools for self defense was critical to their safety and future.

Self-reliance is key to safety and security.

Semper Fi,

[Callisto32]

89. Just like VT!

Oh...nevermind.

[rl6214]

95. Safe and gun free

Those big signs that say GUN FREE ZONE are really going to make sure that happens.

NOPE

NOPE

NOPE

[rrneck]

5. I'd be willing to bet

that the percentage of college students carrying guns on campus will be less than the population at large.

And if we can get colleges and universities to actually do what they are supposed to do, a lot fewer people will have to carry anyway.

[Hissyspit]

39. Along with the wave of faculty who will quash it.

[onehandle]

68. Jesus Is the Light of the Gun.

[Euromutt]

73. Is that so?

[GreenStormCloud]

77. Some of his diciples had swords. N/T

[rrneck]

83. You seem to produce more heat than light. nt

[Atypical Liberal]

113. I agree - the wave is going our way

Pretty soon there will only be one state that doesn't allow concealed carry, and after that the restrictions on where you can carry will loosen.

[jpak]

3. Guns off campus man - only campus law enforcement should carry firearms

Gun-free Academic Freedom

yup

[rrneck]

6. LOL! That'll work as soon as you

teach the cops to jump through a rip in the fabric of time.

[armueller2001]

7. Why?

Has it been a problem at the dozens of universities that allow campus carry?

Do you have any articulable justification or reasoning why you'd like to restrict this particular liberty?

[a la izquierda]

8. I do.

I will soon be a college professor, and I sure as hell don't want my students thinking they can intimidate me because they're packing heat. If you think that won't happen, you don't live in reality. Professors and graduate students get threatened *without* guns-no link, just speaking from personal experience and observations.

[jpak]

9. Yup!

:thumbsup:

[rrneck]

13. Your concerns are understandable

but probably unfounded. Any student that legally carries a gun is bound by the same requirements as anybody else. In short, they have somewhat more than upstanding citizens. Most states require people to be 21 years old and undergo a fairly thorough FBI background check. Anybody not willing to do that and carry anyway probably won't be going to college.

Now, caveats abound in the above statement. Some states allow concealed carry without a background check. There might be a nut in one of the classes you teach. I just don't know of any way to preserve the rights of people to defend themselves and fairly ban guns from classrooms. The facts of life in the real world make the logistics impossible. But even if the university where you teach in in a tough neighborhood like maybe Pratt in Brooklyn, you're probably safer on campus than anywhere else in that neighborhood.

There are no simple solutions and I don't pretend to have one.

[jpak]

14. "but probably unfounded" - la tee da

Guns have no place in any classroom for any reason.

period

yup

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lawodevolution]

57. Yup. Yup. Lol

Yup.

Why
Not
Show
Us
How
The current universities that allow concealed carry are having problems

Yup

[NewMoonTherian]

67. Provide support for this position. n/t

[a la izquierda]

74. SWEET! I feel so much better.

I'll tell this to the mentally unstable person who tried to abduct a professor at gunpoint a couple years ago on my campus.
FFS.

[X_Digger]

79. Unpossible! Campuses are gun free, right? n/t

[rrneck]

81. Sorry to dissapoint you.

Does your campus allow firearms? If not, then your gun free zone turned out to be meaningless didn't it?

You call yourself qualified to teach at a university and yet you seem to think there is a place on this earth where you will be completely safe? How hard do you think it would be to make such a place for you? Who would pay for it with the loss of their civil rights? How much of a police state would you require to support your comfortable "life of the mind"? What makes you so special?

What you don't seem to understand is the attitude you just expressed is an embarrassment to institutions of higher learning everywhere and to everyone who wanted to use their education to make a better world. It's an embarrassment to students everywhere who have had to fight in the streets for justice and the right to think as they wish. For them an education is a tool for justice and opportunity. For you apparently, it's a comfy cocoon for your ideology.

I am constantly amazed at the liberals that cop that kind of attitude and then wonder why Republicans win elections by accusing Democrats of being effete latte sipping ivory tower academics with no understanding of reality or concern for the working man.

[rl6214]

99. Well if he/she was already breaking the law

he/she is not going to care about gun laws anyway, right?

[aikoaiko]

22. As someone who works on a campus, what makes you think students don't have guns on them already?

I can understand that not everyone wants to carry a firearm when confronting angry students, but there are some who would.

[jpak]

24. There is no need for any faculty member to carry a firearm to advise a student

that's just plain nuts

yup

[aikoaiko]

28. Actually, post #8, the one you gave a thumbs up to, makes the case that there is.

Its naive to think that those students who intimidate faculty and staff don't sometimes have weapons themselves.

Did VATechs regulations prevent Cho from his rampage through campus? Did U of Alabama's gun free zone stop Amy Bishop from exacting her revenge on her colleagues.

People who want to carry on campus merely want the chance to defend themselves should they need to. The states allow those same folks to carry in other public places -- just not where they work.

[jpak]

50. What about Columbine? - should high school kids carry too?

dumb

yup

There are thousands of colleges and millions of college students in the US - millions of guns in the hands of those students would not prevent a potential Cho or Bishop from planning and carrying out those atrocities - anymore than anyone can prevent a disgruntled employee from "going postal" in a workplace.

More guns would just make those situations worse as the tendency would be everyone to shoot anyone that threatened them in a campus gun melee - innocent or psycho.

More stupidity - more victims

yup

[aikoaiko]

55. yes, dumb because no one is talking about children carry guns except people trying to derail debate

Its almost like you cannot stay on the topic.

[armueller2001]

78. "The tendency would be everyone to shoot anyone that threatened them in a campus gun melee"

PLEASE PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR YOUR STATEMENT, THERE ARE DOZENS OF UNIVERSITIES THAT CURRENTLY ALLOW CARRY ON CAMPUS

It is clear that this situation is imaginary in your mind, and you have no facts or data to back it up. You just don't like guns, plain and simple, and are like a child covering their ears and saying "NA NA NA I DON'T HEAR YOU!!!!"

[rl6214]

101. "should high school kids carry too?"

No but they are younger than the law allows, but you knew that, right?

The teachers could have been allowed to carry though.

YUP

YUP

YUP

[rl6214]

100. WOW, another fly-by one liner

You brought your A game today.

YUP

YUP

YUP

[a la izquierda]

75. Professors would want to carry guns to confront students?

What are you smoking. I live in Oklahoma and I could probably count on one hand professors who'd *want* to carry guns.

Why am I even bothering trying to rationalize this argument with people in the gun forum? *smacks head* waste of time.

[aikoaiko]

76. And if someone started to attack you, perhaps with a weapon, what you prefer to do?

I would prefer to confront them with a firearm I've been trained to use. And when it comes down to it, most people want to defend themselves within the bounds of the law. What makes professors and staff more dangerous on campus than off campus that the law should prevent them from carrying on campus?

Based on your comments here, I'm not surprised that professors haven't shared their interest in protecting themselves with you.

In my academic department (a social science) of 7, there are three of us who wish we could legally carry a concealed firearm on campus when we wish to.

I would say its true that faculty and staff who wish to carry concealed even occasionally are a minority but there are a lot more than you think and we're growing (just as the general popularity of concealed carry is growing across the nation). We don't share our views with those would prefer to fear monger about faculty carrying firearms.

[rl6214]

102. Then why are you here, *smacks head*?

waste of time.

[RSillsbee]

36. I carried a gun every single day in college

None of my professors even knew.

No link just personal experience

[jpak]

37. Why?

n/t

[RSillsbee]

43. Because I have a psychotic assed ex SIL

who has been suspected but never charged in several murders (in and out of prison) who blames my wife , my daughter (his ex wife) and myself for at least one of his prison terms and the lose of his parental rights .

I carry a gun everywhere

And to piss off people like you

[jpak]

45. I was almost ready to agree with your decision to carry

until I read that last line - which make me believe that it was your primary reason.

as most undergraduates do not have married children.

pathetic

yup

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. Aaand your approval is necessary for what reason again?

Let us know when you are named Secretary of Needs.

[jpak]

51. Pissing people off is not a legitimate reason to carry

nope

[SlimJimmy]

60. Pissing people off has no bearing on his right to own and carry a firearm.

I find it just fascinating that you would even *attempt* to make that argument. Lame.

[DonP]

64. Or to post either when you have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation

[WatsonT]

120. You don't get to decide such matters

likewise you can't say "being pissed off at the other party is no reason to vote X".

Well you can, but it has no legal bearing whatsoever.

[RSillsbee]

52. My mother had great grand children

by the time she was working on her last degree (Granted she was a grad student and had a doctorate by that time) at UNO. Since she worked for the Univeristy Medcenter she got what amounted to a free ride.

I went back to college when I was 42

[jpak]

54. "back to college" - so you carried the first time around too?

:D

[RSillsbee]

65. No I didn't

Well, technically I guess I did. The first time I went to college (or took a collge course) was when I went to EMT school ( My certificate said Pikes Peak Community College) on Ft. Carson and I was carrying an M-16A2 for a couple of the classes.

Not sure if that fits your criteria

[PavePusher]

69. There are parents and grandparents in college.

If you got up and stepped away from your mom's computer, you might figure that out on your own.

[Hissyspit]

41. Most professors are well aware

that many of their students are sociopaths, or high on drugs, or that their students think they are smarter than they are. Just because they don't say anything, doesn't mean they are not aware of things.

[rl6214]

98. You are intimidated by something you can't even see

and you don't even know if it's there or not?

You'd better just stay in bed and hide under the covers then, you can't be helped.

[Atypical Liberal]

114. What stops them from doing it right now?

What is stopping someone from intimidating you with a firearm on your campus right now?

[WatsonT]

119. That would be illegal then

and do you suppose professors are the only people subject to intimidation?

Couldn't someone take a gun in to work and intimidate their boss with it (or go to their house if they like)?

So logically we should ban guns for everyone who isn't their own boss, and who pays taxes (can't be intimidating those IRS agents, that's not good), and who is subject to the laws of any state or nation (can't try to intimidate the cops).

[Tuesday Afternoon]

87. why does the campus law enforcement need guns....?

so they can fire on the children?

wait. what.

yup.

[WatsonT]

121. To defend themselves against students who are currently disarmed by law

Apparently.

[rl6214]

97. Nice arguement

GOT ANY MORE?

NOPE

NOPE

NOPE

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpak]

12. Young Republicans and other RW assholes would love to have open carry parades through classrooms

waving their copies of Atlas Shrugged to prove they can intimidate "liberal" professors.

yup

[rrneck]

20. If liberals are that easily intimidated

they should reconsider the strength of their convictions.

[jpak]

23. The presence of guns in the classroom IS intimidating

Students that want to conceal carry can find somewhere else to spend their time and money.

Colleges should be **free** to set their rules and regulations to foster a nonthreatening learning environment.

Classrooms aren't firing ranges - leave your guns at home or go elsewhere.

yup

[rrneck]

30. Do you have a way

to guarantee their safety to and from class?

Do you have a self defense solution that will work as well as a firearm?

Put up or shut up.

[jpak]

33. If there are no guns in the classroom the students are safe

If a student verbally threatens anyone - they get the expelled

Escorted off-campus by armed campus police - and checked for weapons.

If they violate the law, they spend time on the Crowbar Campus.

problem solved

yup

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. Unless, of course, they're not:

Repost of #26 as you didn't seem to get it the first time:

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1322341

The analysis divided the schools into four categories -- largest to smallest. Analyzing the latest complete set of numbers available from 2002 and 2003, these are the schools with the highest violent crime rates:

In the smallest category, schools with 2,100 students or fewer, Central State University in Wilberforce, Ohio, reported the highest violent crime rate, with 29 robberies and aggravated assaults in 2002 alone. In 2003, a fight ended with a student's death.

Most of the violent crimes at Holy Cross, a Catholic college, were forcible sexual assaults. This type of violent crime is the most common on campuses throughout the country. The college says its goal is to be among the safest campuses in the country. The school says it encourages students to report all crimes and as schools are required to report all crimes reported to them, and it says this accounts for the higher numbers.

In the extra-large category, including schools with more than 11,000 students, the University of Massachusetts, in the small New England town of Amherst, with a student body of more than 24,000 students reported the highest violent crime rate.

A comment on that last part- Massachusetts has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country.

So why does UMass-Amherst have such a high crime rate?


You told us "If there are no guns in the classroom the students are safe", did you not?

Yup, you sure did....

[rrneck]

59. Nice dodge. nt

[PavePusher]

70. You are so divorced from reality as to make me concerned...

for your state of mental health.

[rl6214]

104. That worked real well at Va Tech

right?

NOPE

NOPE

NOPE

[WatsonT]

122. Did you ever go to college?

I'm getting the impression that no you did not.

Most colleges aren't impregnable fortresses. Hell even most military academies don't meet that criteria. There are no real walls or guard towers, or checkpoints, or anything really separating it from the city that it is attached to.

Meaning you escort someone off campus and send him away he could simply turn around and walk right back on. So . . . . how does that stop anything from occurring?

[rrneck]

15. I think it's a tempest in a teapot.

The number of people carrying guns on campus will probably be much smaller than the number of people who carry in the general population.

As far as problems go, college students get assaulted like anybody else. Most of the time it just doesn't happen on a college campus. They nevertheless have to get from the streets to the campus and back home again. If their destination doesn't allow the gun, the logistics of travel to and from that destination could become difficult and perhaps life threatening.

Note the lack of snark and sexual innuendo in the above post. Learn well grasshopper.

[TheCowsCameHome]

11. Colleges today.

High schools tomorrow?

Grade schools after that?

Where would it end?

[rrneck]

18. Please.

Do you know any 21 year old grade school students. Acquaint yourself with federal law and avoid future embarrassment.

[TheCowsCameHome]

25. Thanks for the correction. I never heard of "aquatint"

[rrneck]

27. Heh. Maybe I need a refresher course in spelling. nt

[jpak]

29. LOL!!!11 Is that what they call gun bluing paste these days???

:rofl:

Perhaps they should have students pass a spelling exam before they can carry on campus.

That would solve the problem.

yup!

:D

[rrneck]

31. You might be thinking of aquatint.

I enjoyed intaglio. It has little or nothing to do with guns.

Got that solution yet?

[RSillsbee]

38. Kindercare NT

[Euromutt]

72. How come the "slippery slope" argument is illegitimate when it concerns gun bans...

...but perfectly fine when it concerns relaxing gun laws?

We are talking about concealed carry here. To get a concealed carry permit, you have to be 21, and that's not likely to change anytime soon, but even if it does, the age requirement will not go below 18. Moreover, even in jurisdictions where no permit is required to carry concealed (Vermont, Alaska and Arizona, at present), you still need to be 18 to be in unsupervised possession of a firearm.

If you know any 21 year-olds attending grade school, your objection might bear some relation to reality. But if not, you're just throwing out a red herring.

[WatsonT]

124. +1

[WatsonT]

123. If we're to believe our more hysterical members

it will end with mandated gun-ownership of toddlers (of course the guns would have to have a weak draw and no safety). Perhaps the guns would be duct-taped to their hands so they couldn't accidentally set them down.

If however we were to employ common sense we would realize there is a sharp legal difference between an adult and a child.

[DWC]

16. I don't like it either

"I don't like it. There should be at least a few places in this country where we all are expected to disarm in the interest of common understanding"

No one likes it and in a perfect world everywhere would be safe. This is not a perfect world and there is no such thing as an absolutely safe place. Our likes or dislikes will never change that fact.

Having the ability to defend oneself against a potential threat, wherever you may be, is simply common sense.

Semper Fi,

[rrneck]

17. Once again, I wasn't aware that I asserted otherwise. nt

[jpak]

21. What potential threats? - those evil Sigmas, dastardly Deltas????

Common sense says guns off campus man.

Semper Fi

[rrneck]

26. It happens...

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=1322341

The analysis divided the schools into four categories -- largest to smallest. Analyzing the latest complete set of numbers available from 2002 and 2003, these are the schools with the highest violent crime rates:

In the smallest category, schools with 2,100 students or fewer, Central State University in Wilberforce, Ohio, reported the highest violent crime rate, with 29 robberies and aggravated assaults in 2002 alone. In 2003, a fight ended with a student's death.

Most of the violent crimes at Holy Cross, a Catholic college, were forcible sexual assaults. This type of violent crime is the most common on campuses throughout the country. The college says its goal is to be among the safest campuses in the country. The school says it encourages students to report all crimes and as schools are required to report all crimes reported to them, and it says this accounts for the higher numbers.

In the extra-large category, including schools with more than 11,000 students, the University of Massachusetts, in the small New England town of Amherst, with a student body of more than 24,000 students reported the highest violent crime rate.

[QuintinInAlaska]

34. .

So .... no matter how many times it happens, you prefer to
double down on providing a defenseless victim zones? Perhaps,
being a pro-choice type of person, you could allow individuals
to decide for themselves?

[jpak]

42. They should have the choice of pursuing an education in a gun-free environment

It's called "freedom".

Gun-toters can go to their own colleges and universities and feel "safe" from any stupid bogeyman they fear.

Yup

[SlimJimmy]

63. Freedom? Yes, and it is outlined quite nicely in the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution. (nt)

[PavePusher]

71. How do you propose to ensure a "gun-free environment"....

and how do you propose to prevent crime? Who will be responsible if crimes do occur that could have been defended against with a firearm? Are you going to volunteer to help provide security? Are you going to help pay for it?

What. Do. You. Offer?

[speltwon]

103. They absolutely have that freedom

Form your own private university. Private universities can (generally) ban guns, just like any other private business. They can also severely restrict free speech rights. BYU can ban anti-mormon speech by students. A public university cannot.

[Atypical Liberal]

115. Should they also have the choice of pursing an education in an homosexual-free environment?

What if people want the choice of pursuing an education in a Lantino-free environment?

No. We have a Constitution for a reason.

[sharesunited]

32. You were doing so well making sense. Then you stumbled into the usual apologetics.

Guns are NOT necessarily a fact of life in the world.

It is a matter of unbelievably indulgent public policy in the good ol' USA.

If the same wrath which we as a society direct against kiddie porn were directed against guns and ammo, then we might make some real progress disarming the nation.

[lawodevolution]

58. Sorry SU, kiddie porn is illegal but cameras are not banned just like murder

And violence with guns is illegal while guns are legal.

[rrneck]

62. Guns are NOT necessarily a fact of life in the world.

If that's the case then why are you here?

That technology will never go away. You can't even expunge it from your own ideology.

A cornucopia of fail.

[Common Sense Party]

84. "make some real progress disarming the nation."

Thank you for clearly stating your goal and objective.

If only all the anti-gun folks on these threads would be so obvious and honest.

You want all of us disarmed.

[Callisto32]

92. When you figure out how to uninvent the pressure vessel....

let us know.

Until then....

[Atypical Liberal]

116. Guns ARE a fact of life in the world.

Guns are NOT necessarily a fact of life in the world.

Completely false. Modern firearm technology is now well over 100 years old. Firearms have been a fact of life in this world for a long time now. Nearly every police officer in this country carries one, because they are the most effective tool for protecting their personal safety as they go about their business in this world. Any time a bad guy is at large, people with guns show up to bring the bad guy to heel.

Guns are a fact of life in this world. No amount of wishing or rules or laws will change that. It would be like trying to ban electricity.

[Kolesar]

80. I could not afford a car or a nice calculator, so a "gun" would have been out of the question

...on my slender budget in college.

For that matter, I knew plenty of teenagers who did not have the judgement to own a firearm when they were college students.

[rrneck]

82. I went back later in life.

I didn't have the advantage of a family that even thought higher education was all that necessary. I had to find that out for myself, and by then I already owned guns.

Like I said, a college campus is a challenging tactical environment for anyone, especially a new gun owner. That's why I don't like the idea of guns on campus. But it's the law. If you're twenty one years old (not a teenager) and an upstanding citizen, you can carry. Personally, I think they should move the drinking age and draft age to at least twenty four. It would probably cut down on the unnecessary wars and certainly the drunk driving fatalities. But that's just me.

[Callisto32]

93. How about...

We remove the drinking age completely and end involuntary servitude?

[rrneck]

85. kick nt

[Callisto32]

88. Non issue.

Those that carry discretely and responsibly will do so at a university the same as everywhere else.

To say that a class of items "just doesn't belong in X location" is silly. Items of all kinds can be anywhere they can be safely handled.

What there are, is certain ACTIVITIES that aren't appropriate ANYWHERE.

[rrneck]

105. Not as silly as you might think.

Universities do much more than dispense information. They build cultures. They are a place where serious questions get asked and answered, and that activity requires an atmosphere that fosters the spirit of academic inquiry. If all we had to do is absorb data then the forum of the university would not even need to exist.

While the presence of a firearm carried by a responsible person is obviously no physical danger to others, the symbolism that a firearm brings with it can have a serious negative impact on the learning environment. When I taught at a university radios and headphones were banned from my classroom because they were disruptive. I set a fairly high bar for students in terms of comportment and decorum and expected it to be maintained. I did that because it is difficult to manage the sizable differences of personalities and agendas of students who are required to associate with others not necessarily of their choosing.

If I were still teaching I still wouldn't allow headphones, cell phones, Big Johnson tee shirts or anything else I think might make it difficult for others to concentrate on the task at hand.

When we think of carrying firearms our first thought is frequently a nice Springfield SD in a Serpa holster or something like that. But it wouldn't take long for some idiot like that guy that open carried a short AK around Radnor lake a while back just to stir up shit. Universities encourage excessive behavior because that's how research happens. All the stops are out and students are encouraged to push the intellectual envelope as much as possible. That attitude overlaps into their personal lives and frequently causes trouble with partying and drinking and wotnot. A large part of the educational process involves learning how to work with others that don't necessarily think like you. That process requires we give an extra measure of consideration for the sensibilities of others. After college most people return to the comfort zones of people who think like them and the symbolism (or lack) of a firearm becomes much less of an issue.

[Callisto32]

106. Shouldn't these theoretical thinkers be able to look past that symbolism?

Faced with a person who is armed, and not posing a threat, should the students (and professors) not be able to see that it is not the items, but the actions taken therewith are the issue.

The suggestion is that if CCW happens on campus, people will be less able to learn because they might be scared that someone has a gun on campus. Shouldn't this future intellectual elite be able to see that there is no magical anti-gun force field keeping the bad people from bringing their guns there NOW? No, I expect people who would be thinkers to be able to look at the data we have now, and see that CCW on campus is no reason to fear, rather than submit to emotional impulses driven by primal symbolism.

ETA: I was a Christian Libertarian in college. My sensibilities were CONSTANTLY offended. I was told that is what college is for, to teach you how to entertain ideas, even if they are repulsive to you.

[rrneck]

109. They might be able to but should they have to?

Should these theoretical thinkers have to study with heavy metal music blaring at 100 decibels?

I just finished a painting with a swastika in the middle of it. It was an interesting formal problem since a swastika is such a powerful symbol it could easily dominate the work to the exclusion of all else. It works in the painting and within the content requirements intended, but I had to go to a lot of trouble to control it visually to give the viewer a chance to access the rest of the work. Even then it's dodgy, since I don't know how easily any given individual will respond to the symbol or how quickly they "see" it. No way it'll ever sell. It's just too close to the edge of the envelope.

Now I'm not saying that a gun is synonymous with or symbolic of the tenets of National Socialism. But it is a very powerful symbol and can easily command an inordinate amount of unintended attention that would be better spent elsewhere. We aren't supposed to attend institutions of higher learning as an exercise in ego inflation. We don't go to class to shout "look at me". We go to college to learn and to test our ideas against not only the ideas of those who have gone before us, but against the ideas of our instructors and fellow students. A life of the mind is not an easy life. "That's all just academic" seems to have become a bit of an insult while I consider it virtue. It's not easy to put aside ego and let one's ideas stand or fall on their own merits, and then learn from that process. It's also no small task to create an atmosphere where that can happen.

When you get your undergraduate degree you think you know everything. When you get your masters degree you find out you know nothing. When you get your doctorate you find nobody else knows anything either. I've always felt that the mark of an educated person is humility. The question of having or not having a gun in the classroom isn't about self defense or grades or intimidation or even some political statement. It's about decorum. It's about giving due consideration to the sensibilities of others and having them return the favor.

A simple gesture can mean a whole lot. It's not fair for others to demand you create an ersatz "zone of safety" while putting yourself at risk. But I don't think it's too much to ask to set some sort of standard of decorum in a special place like a university classroom, a church, or a courthouse. These are special places and deserve special behavior. It means that those in attendance are there in a spirit of cooperation and openness. It means that they are at least trying to be civilized.

[Callisto32]

111. While I understand your sentiment, I still disagree.

Yes, there is some amount of decorum that should be observed in a university setting. Agreed. But, I don't think that drawing attention to yourself and your ideas through actions or displays necessarily goes against that.

I went to a private, religiously affiliated school. A group on campus got together and spent a fair amount of school funds on shirts that said "GAY? FINE BY ME!" LGBT students were ENCOURAGED to come out and draw attention to the issue by staff and faculty, many of whom also wore the shirt. Now, I agree with this sentiment. I don't care with whom you sleep. I was in no way offended by this display, but many of the more traditionally conservative students were. The response to their protests of school money being spent to further this was "tough, this is college, you have to deal with people having ideas different than your own, and being forward and sometimes confrontational about them."

Contrast this to when I, as a single individual, wore an empty holster to class one day to protest the fact that I, as a CCW holder was forced to go disarmed on campus. You would have thought I called in a bomb threat, given the swiftness of the response. I informed the school of my intent. While they did not try to stop me they did send out an email (about 5 minutes after I announced my intentions to them) that basically said "if you have any classes with this student, and would feel uncomfortable, you can not come to class that day." I wish I would have saved that email....but anyway. This school had an attendance policy. Each class could be missed only 4 times a semester. If you missed more than that you would receive an incomplete in your marks and have to sit for the class again.

I never tried it, because I didn't care, but I suspect, given the response of the school to the complaints about spending the money, that if I had said "I'm not going to class because people are wearing t-shirts that express ideas with which I disagree, I would have been told "tough, you have to deal with ideas you don't like."

So, which ideas are disruptive, and which aren't? In the end, it seems to come down to the delicate sensibilities of those that are running the university. Understand that as a libertarian, my ideas are often way outside of the university mainstream. Because birds of a feather flock together, I have a number of friends/acquaintances with similar ideas that went to different universities. These kinds of experiences are common among us. "All ideas are equal, but some ideas are more equal than others" seems to be a common attitude among academia, these days.

So, I guess in the end, would it be okay to say that you can't or shouldn't wear a "FUCK BUSH" or "GAY? FINE BY ME!" shirt, because that violates SOME of the student's sense of decorum? Whose sense of decorum do we use? Where is the line drawn? Carrying a gun is not a violation of MY sense of decorum, but a "FUCK BUSH" (or FUCK anything) t-shirt is. It is DESIGNED to draw attention and be shocking. Why is this okay, but other ideas are not?

I would much rather the university do what it says it is doing, and challenge the ideas of ALL students, not just the ones that hold ideas outside of the academic mainstream.

ETA: I was not saying that you hold any of the views expressed above. I was responding to your suggestions through my view of university life as I have experienced it.

As to the question in your subject line, yes. Students who feel icky confronting the idea that carrying a gun is okay should have to look past their bias just like the students that feel icky with suggestions that homosexuality is okay.

[rrneck]

126. Heh. Reminds me of a movie line...

In The Lord of the Rings when Aragorn rides up and lops off the head of the Mouth Of Sauron Gimli says, "I guess that concludes negotiations."

The response to your empty holster statement was a dick move by your school. What kind of college worth its salt trots out that kind of authoritarian bullshit? Who ever got shot with a fucking holster?

The tee shirts that said "Gay, fine by me" were an offer to open dialogue. By the same token, your wearing an empty holster was also an invitation to engage in discussion. Both are acts of generosity offered in the finest spirit of academic inquiry. Anybody that is aghast at the prospect of discussing any issue doesn't understand what a university is for. If they miss the point of that symbolism they need to drop out of school and become a fry cook or something because they're just wasting their money.

On the other hand, everything about an actual firearm says STOP. Nothing means closure like a bullet leaving the muzzle of a gun. That's why we have the four rules of firearms handling and range officers. It's why we say we "shoot to stop". It's also why brandishing can get you thrown in jail.

As you have probably surmised I went to art school. In most academic programs the objectives of the students are pretty much the same. Not in the art department. Everybody has an axe to grind and they are there specifically to learn how to grind it and let everybody know about it. Hence the sensitivity to symbolism and all that. Most of the other disciplines in the liberal arts are the same to a lesser degree. Higher education isn't just facts and figures. People's feelings matter and should be taken into consideration although hypersensitivity is a persistent problem as well.

That's why concealed carry on campus seems the best compromise. It says, "there's a gun here, deal with it" but the person carrying concealed is also saying, "in deference to you, I won't confront you with it." It's a small gesture, but it seems to leave the way open to dialogue, and that's always a good thing.

[Callisto32]

130. I think your last paragraph is probably suggests the best solution, given current attitudes.

I'm not a big fan of open carry anywhere. It isn't because I think it is wrong, but there are a lot of pragmatic reasons to NOT let people know you are armed. Not being a prick about it is one of them.

[DWC]

94. Excellent

Thank you for this post. It is extremely well written, thoughtful, thought prevoking, and loaded with common sense.

Semper Fi,

[GreenStormCloud]

107. Campus parking lots are not crime free.

Some students take night classes. The parking lot is often over a block or more away. So you have the same situation as a mall parking lot at night.

[rrneck]

108. Yep.

From the OP:

"It's legal because the same people who attend colleges and universities also have to navigate the dangers and vicissitudes of life in the world. So while the presence of a firearm in the classroom only presents the symbolic power of force, on the street it represents real power against those who would do us physical harm. They don't call it an ivory tower for nothing."

[GreenStormCloud]

110. Indeed.

From your OP:

The only solution I can come up with in practical terms is to mitigate the impact of the presence of a firearm in the academic environment while preserving the rights of those who wish to carry to defend themselves outside the classroom. Carry concealed. I don't think it's too much to ask to require concealed carry on college campuses. The tactical disadvantages of slightly reduced access or altering one's wardrobe to cover the weapon are minuscule while the advantages are tremendous.

Well said.

[Atypical Liberal]

112. I'm all for concealed carry, but not open

As I have said many times before, I believe what my martial arts teacher taught us: Never display a weapon until and unless it is time to use it. Showing a weapon gives away more advantages than it conveys. Showing a weapon makes the smart and determined criminal target you as the most immediate threat. It can provoke escalating bravado from people who want to "push you" to see if you are bluffing. It can alarm and intimidate others around you, resulting in unnecessary hassle. It can cause you to lose opportunities to people who are prejudiced against firearm owners.

What you gain for your trouble is the possibility of scaring off a smart but undetermined criminal, and the possibility of accessing your firearm faster if you need it.

I don't think that's a reasonable tradeoff, especially considering the unlikeliness of actually needing to use a firearm.

[DWC]

117. I completely agree

Even if open carry was legal here, I would not do it or recommend it. IMO, openly carrying a defensive weapon simply tells the Bad Guys to attack you first, with no warning, using overwhelming force, and from behind.

Semper Fi,

[rrneck]

127. Yep. I think it's generally best to operate from a position of concealed strength. nt

[WatsonT]

118. Ah excellent repositioning of those goalposts

the statistics aren't in your favor so instead guns have a dark aura about them that is evil and prevents an education.

Good move.

Like the people who try to argue in favor of abstinence only education learned years ago: the numbers are not on their side, argue from a spiritual side instead.

[rrneck]

125. If it were only a matter of statistics

there would be no debate. Statistics aren't sufficient to describe or predict all the variables involved in the human condition. Depending only on statistics is in itself moving the goalposts. People aren't machines and they don't attend universities to be programmed that way. (At least not the good ones.)

[WatsonT]

128. Good defense of emotion over logic

however people are statistics in a way. Who do you suppose makes up the data points used in these stats?

Can statistics be used to say "X will never ever ever ever under any circumstances happen"? No.

But they can show that certain things are highly unlikely.

Besides it's a completely disingenuous argument and you know it. If things were reversed the anti-gun side would do nothing but present data on how guns correlate to more crime.

The fact that the NEVER DO SO means that the anti-gunners must change tack and go with an emotional argument, because otherwise they've lost.

[rrneck]

129. What makes you think I'm "anti gun"?

All caps means you're shouting. Try not to be so emotional.