Why 33 rounds makes sense in a defensive weapon

[Nuclear Unicorn]

<snip>

Guns were the software of the 19th century; the most dynamic age of development was roughly 1870 to 1900, when the modern forms were perfected. Two primary operating systems emerged for handguns: the revolver, usually holding six cartridges and manipulated by the muscle energy of the hand, and the semiautomatic, harnessing the explosively released energy of the burning powder to cock and reload itself. Since then, design and engineering improvements have been not to lethality but to ease of maintenance and manufacture, or weight reduction. A Glock is "better" than a Luger because you don't need a PhD to take it apart, nor a fleet of machinists to produce the myriad pins, levers, springs and chunks of steel that make it go bang. Moreover, you can lose a Glock in a flood and find it six months later in the mud, and it still will shoot perfectly, while the Luger would have become a nice paperweight.

What nobody has been able to improve on since the 1870s is the cartridge. It is an extraordinary mechanism that safely stores volatile chemical energy until needed. It is cheap to manufacture, easy to transport and largely impervious to the elements.

What's often lost amid activists' carping is that the effect of the notorious extended magazine does little to improve the pistol's lethality except in extraordinary circumstances, such as Tucson. Neither Seung-Hui Cho, the Virginia Tech mass murderer, nor the alleged Fort Hood killer used extended magazines in their rampages. America's first gun mass murder, when Howard Unruh killed 13 people in 1949, was committed with a Luger.

In fact, the extended magazine actually vitiates the pistol's usefulness as a weapon for most needs, legitimate or illegitimate. The magazine destroys the pistol's essence; it is no longer concealable. Loughner allegedly wrapped the clumsy package in a coat for a short distance, but he could not have worn it in a belt or concealed it for an extended period. It had really ceased to be a pistol.

That's why extended magazines are rarely featured in crime - and that awkwardness spells out the magazine's primary legitimate usage. It may have some utility for competitive shooting by cutting down on reloading time, or for tactical police officers on raids, but for those who are not hard-core gun folks it's an ideal solution for home defense, which is probably why hundreds of thousands of Glocks have been sold in this country.

<snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/04/AR2011020406709.html

I like well-written darguments that minimize rhetoric. I wonder if our very own One-Eyed Fat Man wrote this editorial. After the historical perspective he goes on to explain threats of multiple, well-armed attackers make sense in certain areas and that women and the elderly are more likely to prefer pistols with extended magazines than investing time in mastering rifles.

[tridim]

1. DERP

[Nuclear Unicorn]

2. ?

[Vinnie From Indy]

3. 34 robbers at my door

I got up to let 'em in
but, I missed 'em all
with my rollin' pin
Etta James

I would like to know if there has ever been a reported home invasion or other crime where the victim had to expend over 30 rounds to defend him/herself.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

4. Why do people engaging in a right having to express personal need?

If I'm not liekly to become pregnant do I need to demonstrate personal requirement for abortion before I support it?

Can heterosexuals petititon for gay marriage?

Can caucasians participate in the call for civil rights?



My rights aren't about what I need to ask permission to use. If they were, they wouldn't be rights they would be privileges.

[safeinOhio]

8. Reasonable limits to all rights.

We all know you can't yell fire in a crowded theater. You must register to vote. You must get a permit for a demonstration that will tie up traffic in a large city. You can't target practice in your backyard within the city limits or carry your firearm into court or on a commercial flight. Where the line is drawn is the question. If a danger to society becomes a problem, such as firing high power rifles in your yard in a highly populated city, laws that may seem a violation of those rights to some are passed and upheld.
Then it could be argued that a person does have the right to defend oneself. That argument would carry less weight if the facts show that is more than ten rounds are seldom if ever used in self defense. On the other hand if drive by shootings and mass attacks on the population happen with more than 10 round magazines, a case can be made to limit those.
I can find no cases in the googles of any non LEOs self defense of 10 plus rounds used in the last 10 years. I have found many cased of large capacity mags used in drive by shooting and gang activity.
As news events happen, laws and attitudes by the people and the courts change. 9/11 is an example of this. As to the Constitution, it is flexible in many ways to accommodate changes in society. The 1st Amendment says nothing about child porn. I'm sure some would argue it is legal.
Events have and will determine how we apply the Constitution.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

10. OK, you have to register to vote but poll taxes and slow-walking registrations

would violate the rights.

Should high-capacity ballots be regulated?

Voter registration isn't used to curtail the exercise of the right but to support the integrity of its employment.

[safeinOhio]

17. Is registration a restriction on voting?

Outlawing firing a gun with in the city limits a restriction?
Registration and high fees on owning a full auto?
Ohio's restriction on possession of 30+ round mags?

I don't think rights and restrictions are quite as black and white as some make them out to be. Not that I am in any way in favor of the restrictions placed on personal freedoms that were put in place after 9/11, it does show that events do matter. The debate on 30 round mags is an example. It is pretty much in debate after Tucson. If the Hutaree Militia had been successful in its plan to kill hundreds of police, what would that argument look like now? I would hope we didn't need this debate, however incidents happen and change opinions.

[X_Digger]

22. Any impediment imposed by gov on the exercise, no matter how small, is technically an infringement

The issue isn't whether or not a particular regulation is or isn't an infringement / restriction.

It's whether such restrictions meet the burden of scrutiny imposed by judicial review.

Heller identified some 'presumptively constitutional' restrictions, such as those barring felons and the mentally ill from purchasing weapons. Others? Yet to be tested.

In 'incorporation' law, it's important to realize that nothing happens overnight. It took 25 years for the first amendment to be fully incorporated and for courts to address all the possible regulation surrounding it (Cantwell v. Connecticut, Talley v. California, etc etc etc).

[safeinOhio]

23. but it only took a few box cutters

to kill century old habeas corpus and other rights.

[Callisto32]

27. That wasn't right either.

What is the point of this. Some rights have been violated, so it's okay to do away with the rest? Why not focus energy on exposing the illegitimacy of the already existing restrictions.

[X_Digger]

31. There's no 'right to fly on a private carrier'.

You can have a stack of box cutters on the seat next to you on a private flight-- along with a pile of handguns, nail files, and gallon jugs of water.

Bad example, find another one.

[safeinOhio]

38. Not that bad.

It is a business open to the public like a lunch counter that is not allowed to discriminate, or violate ones civil rights.

[X_Digger]

41. "race, color, religion, sex, or national origin" -- that's all Title II of the CRA 1964 covers

There is no general 'civil rights' protection law with regards to private property.

Nor is a lunch counter, hotel, or other 'public accommodation' required to respect your other rights that would apply in public.

You can be kicked out of a restaurant for handing out political flyers, proselytizing your religion, etc.

You can be detained at a store until the police arrive if they think you've shoplifted. In certain stores, you more or less sign away your right to privacy when you join (costco, etc).

Airlines are private property, even if the government "secures" some of them. Government securing airports is actually voluntary in exchange for being part of the federal airline safety compact (iirc).

[Glassunion]

12. Actually there have been cases of non LEO's using more than 10 rounds to defend themselves.

But I have stated this in the past. The information you are Googling will not be there. This information is not reported by the police. You would need to go directly to the detective's reports on individual self defense shootings. The media rarely reports on any of this specific information.

But, that said take Lance Thomas for one. He was attacked in the course of a robbery 4 times.

Over a period of less than 3 years, Thomas was involved in four gun battles against a total of 11 known suspects. He shot six of them, killing five. The watch dealer himself was wounded on two of these occasions, taking a total of five rounds.

First Robbery(two suspects)
Bad guys shoot: 0 times
Lance shoots: 3 times / 2 hits / all suspects lived

Second Robbery (five suspects)
Bad guys shoot: 8 times / 4 hit Lance(3 in the arm 1 in the neck)
Lance shoots: 19 times 11 hits / 2 suspects died

Third Robbery(two suspects)
Bad guys shoot: 1 time / 1 hit Lance(neck)
Lance shoots: 8 times / 8 hits (gun jamed after the first three shots) / 1 suspect dead

Fouth Robbery(two suspects)
Bad guys shoot: Unknown
Lance shoots: 14 times / 10 hits / both suspects died.

After every robbery Lance would upgrade his firearms to higher capacity and caliber as he saw sufficient. Lance had a different plan then most would. He never wore his firearms, not did he rely on reloading. His plan was to stash firearms around his store and as they ran empty, he would just drop the firearm and pick up another one. At one point he had

When the gang members that were continually targeting his store began to threaten his customers with drive-by shootings, Lance closed his shop for the safety of his customers.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. He needs a safer job

Like the army.

[Glassunion]

14. It is a shame that after all he stood up to, the bad guys won in the end.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. Too bad

the civil authorities we're supposed to depend upon in lieu of private gun ownership were so impotent.

The gangs obviously declared war on him and yet no one could muster the resolve to defend him even though that is their only job.

[safeinOhio]

20. What was the date of that incident?

How many times in the last 10 years were 30 rounds used in self defense by nonLEOs. We don't have any exact figures, only antidotes and few if any of those. We can add up all of the drive by shooting and gang land shootings with high cap mags antidotes as well and I think the results would show that they are basically an offensive tool rather than a defensive tool. You can make an argument on the Constitutional aspects of high cap. mags., but it is pretty hard to make the self defense argument.

[Glassunion]

25. What does it matter the dates of the incidents?

Does time travel play a part in your "reasonable" restrictions?

[safeinOhio]

39. Sure it does statistically speaking

If 30 rounds were use once in 20 years, divided into the number of defensive uses of firearms, it would be statistically insignificant to the argument. I am comparing offensive, that is illegal use of the mags, to legal self defense by nonLEOs to determine the social value of 30+ mags. If there are thousands of illegal uses of them compared to one or two legal uses, the question of legality is valid.

[Glassunion]

47. Statistically speaking you do not have the data to support your claim.

The number of shots fired in a DGU is not collected anywhere that I can find.

The absence of evidence of non LEOs using more than 10 rounds(which you have now raised to 30+) is not evidence of its absence. You are claiming that because you cannot find the evidence, that it does not happen. That is a flaw in your reasoning.

To that I would ask 2 questions.
What is the average number of shots fired in a DGU situation where a citizen had to shoot?

Now that you have raised the bar to 30. What is the number of offensive illegal uses of firearms where extended magazines (ones that can contain more rounds than what ships standard with the firearm) in a mass shooting?

[X_Digger]

30. You're making the same mistake that Branas, Kellerman, etc do..

Namely that the only time a gun is legitimately used in self-defense is when someone actually fires it. How many times are guns with more than 10 rounds used in self-defense? Whether they were fired or not is inconsequential.





p.s. It's 'anecdote'.

[Glassunion]

33. Bingo!

[Glassunion]

37. Also

Note how the bar was raised from post #8 to post #20 from more than 10 rounds to more than 30.

Yup

[YllwFvr]

40. i remember watching a youtube video about him

It was called something like real life gunfighter, but I havent been able to find it again

EDIT
HA found it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkWgp2abM2w

[guitar man]

16. "Reasonable limits"

I don't think most people would disagree with the fact that no rights are absolute and that the old adage "your right to shake your fist ends at my nose" is an apt one.

However, in your examples above, drive by shootings and mass attacks on the population are illegal activities carried out by criminals while self defense by citizens and LEOs are legal activities carried out by the law abiding.

The biggest question in my mind is, with the existing numbers of 11+ round magazines in existence, who would a ban affect more, the criminals or law abiding citizens? I kinda doubt the gang members are getting much of their armaments through legal channels to begin with and I also doubt a would be mass murderer would be much deterred by such a ban IMO.

So where does that leave us? Who would really be affected the most by such a ban? Yes, the gun owners and future gun owners who are determined to follow the law, and possibly their neighbors. Their neighbors?? Yes their neighbors. How might their neighbors be affected?? Enter the law of unintended consequences.

Just today at lunch, I was in a gun shop looking for some sling swivels for my .22. There was a guy in a suit window shopping for a new pistol and he and the sales guy were talking about this very subject,possible magazine capacity limitations. To paraphrase, the sales guy said "If they wind up restricting us to 10 rounds or less, you'd want something with a lot more knockdown power so each round really counts, you might want to take a look at these"

And with that, he laid a Desert Eagle in .44 magnum and two .44 mag revolvers up on the counter for the prospective buyer to look at.

Now I don't know about you, but if I'm living in a close quartered neighborhood with houses right next to each other or worse yet an apartment building or condo, if my neighbor has to deal with an intruder I personally would much rather have them shooting more rounds of 9mm or similar lower powered handgun ammunition than slinging .44 mag or similar hand cannon rounds around. The lower powered rounds are much more likely to stay within their walls than the Dirty Harry stuff.

And yes,I know,this is one salesperson in one store so it hardly qualifies as an accurate cross section of the gun-buying public for statistical purposes, but my gut feeling is, if capacity is limited, the high powered magnum just might once again be en vogue.

So before we go running with our hair on fire to pass a new law I think it's very, very important to weigh it very carefully. Will it accomplish its intended purpose? Who might it hurt? What are the unintended consequences?

just my .02

[TPaine7]

18. I wonder if you will take the answer in post 12 into account and adjust your thinking,

or repeat the same arguments over and over?

[Glassunion]

34. .

We all know you can't yell fire in a crowded theater. It is a crime

You must register to vote. To insure that you are qualified to do so, and only do so once. In relation to firearms that is what NICS does.

You must get a permit for a demonstration that will tie up traffic in a large city. Yep. In relation to firearms, it has similarities to the requirements to carry a firearm in public.

You can't target practice in your backyard within the city limits or carry your firearm into court or on a commercial flight. Yep. It is illegal. That's why my local court house has a locker I can keep my firearm in. On the plane, that it was the luggage compartment underneath is for.

Where the line is drawn is the question. I highly agree.

If a danger to society becomes a problem, such as firing high power rifles in your yard in a highly populated city, laws that may seem a violation of those rights to some are passed and upheld. Your view is slightly off. Firing the weapon in this manner is illegal and not a right at all. Never was a right to do that. Possessing it is the right.

Then it could be argued that a person does have the right to defend oneself. I don't think that this was ever questioned by anyone, on any side of the fence here.

That argument would carry less weight if the facts show that is more than ten rounds are seldom if ever used in self defense. I disagree. You are basically stating that because the law abiding seldom do something that the government should limit something because of what criminals do. Also that number is small compared to the millions of magazines owned by the law abiding.

On the other hand if drive by shootings and mass attacks on the population happen with more than 10 round magazines, a case can be made to limit those. I agree. I would agree to a law that it is illegal to commit a mass-attack or drive by shooting while in possession of a magazine that can contain more than 10 rounds.

I can find no cases in the googles of any non LEOs self defense of 10 plus rounds used in the last 10 years. Who is supposed to be tracking this data? If it was supposed to be me, I'm sorry, I dropped the ball on this one.

I have found many cased of large capacity mags used in drive by shooting and gang activity. If you are simply going on what kind of firearm was used to make this determination, then just look at recent DGUs and compare the firearms that were used to see if they were "large capacity". So, if my wife uses her Glock by drawing it to stop an attack and the attackers run away, my wife has effectively used a "large capacity" mag in a defensive situation. Yes?

As news events happen, laws and attitudes by the people and the courts change. So... MSNBC and Fox should be the directors of our rights?

9/11 is an example of this. That worked out great... Roving wire taps, DHS letters, warrantless snooping, "Freedom" pat downs in airports, government black lists... You know... good stuff.

As to the Constitution, it is flexible in many ways to accommodate changes in society. I agree, it should grow and evolve with society.

The 1st Amendment says nothing about child porn. I'm sure some would argue it is legal. Those who would argue would be wrong. You cannot claim to be exercising a right, but in the course of doing so, violate the rights(abusing a child) of others. It never worked that way. Me legally owning a firearm in no way whatsoever violates any one else's rights.

Events have and will determine how we apply the Constitution. Does this give us excuse to deny any of the rights protected in the BOR?

[krispos42]

36. The Google would probably not be an ideal research source

Too much data, too hard to refine. And you're depending on the media to have that information on-line.

Something like Lexis-Nexis might be a better resource, but that's not a free service, right?


Also, I have a problem with this statement: "I have found many cased of large capacity mags used in drive by shooting and gang activity".

Assuming you define "large capacity mags" as an 11+ magazine, you'll find many such cases, simply because most handguns of the non-Model-1911-type use double-stack magazines that typically hold from 13 to 17 rounds of ammunition. Glocks, Ruger 9mm pistols, Springfield Armory XD series, Smith & Wesson non-compact pistols, a lot of Beretta 9mm and .40-caliber handguns, Taurus non-compact pistols, Para-Ordinance, SIG-Sauer handguns, Walther non-compact pistols, CZ's full-size pistols, Browning's non-compact pistols... the list is pretty exhaustive.

The XD(M) in 9mm comes with a 19-round flush-fit magazine. It's not extended; it's just how much they were able to cram into the gun. So yeah, if a criminal acquires one then the handgun used for the crime is going to have a "large capacity" magazine.


Of course, if you define "large capacity" as 6 or more rounds, then you'll find even more cases of crime being committed with "large capacity" handguns. Including an awful lot of revolvers.


I'll reiterate: I read "Handguns", "Guns & Ammo", and "Gun Tests", and until the tragedy in Arizona the topic of magazines that extended beyond the pistol's grip (extended magazines) simply isn't mentioned. Well, some compact guns come with two magazines, a small, sleek one that holds, say, 6 rounds, and slightly larger one with a pinky rest that holds 7, but that's typically it.

In fact, the Model 1911 pistol gets an AWFUL lot of ink in those magazines and they only hold 7 or 8 rounds per magazine.

[Katya Mullethov]

9. The Beckwith incident is rather prominent

Old guy and multiple actors in a couple of cars with their arms full of stolen arms .

[RSillsbee]

35. home invasion or other crime where the victim had to expend over 30 rounds

Ruby Ridge

[YllwFvr]

42. I hadnt thought of that one

Would the Davidians in Waco count too? Im not sure how much they shot back, it pretty vague

[flamin lib]

5. A claymore would be even better. nt

[rfranklin]

6. I would like to have a GAU-17...

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

29. Minigun will run you about $150k-$200k if you can find one for sale.

The guy I bought a couple of my silencers from has one mounted in the back of a pickup truck.

[sharp_stick]

7. I'd rather carry

multiple magazines. If you can't figure out how to quickly eject and reinsert a magazine you need practice, if you can't hit what you're aiming at with a regular magazine in 99.99% of situations I'd call you a piss poor shot and say you should buy a baseball bat because you'll have better luck with it.

Extended magazines are for lazy shooters who can't be bothered to spend a few seconds reloading.

[X_Digger]

11. Or for guys in bath robes in the middle of the night..

Cell phone or flashlight in one hand, gun in the other.

[guitar man]

26. Bath robe?

I don't need no steenking bath robe!! If a break in happens in the middle of the night, I'm going after them stark nekkid. The sight of me nekkid just might send them running and screaming into the night and I'd never have to fire a shot! :spray: :rofl:

[X_Digger]

32. I was being generous to delicate senibilities..

I can't imagine tucking a spare mag into my tighty whities, either. :)

[YllwFvr]

43. not into tighty whities

but spandex boxers... ;)

[Kennah]

19. I carry 41 rounds (in 3 magazines plus one in the chamber)

I prefer multiple mags because shit happens. Springs break, my stupid little brain could unintentionally hit the mag release, etc.

[safeinOhio]

21. I carry a 32 cal

with one in the chamber and only 5 in the 6 round mag. 99.9% sure that is more than I'll ever need. I tend to stay away from drug deals and gang areas and never mess with some one's wife or girl friend. I take walks, jog and ride a bike all summer and my little Seecamp is plenty and concealed very well.

[Kennah]

24. I used to carry a 38 snub with two speedloaders

I never did get very good with the speedloaders, and an Airweight 38 stings the living shit out of my hand when I fire it. Just 5 rounds of 38 +P JHPs, and I have to set it down.

However, I can bang away all weekend putting hundreds of full power .40 S&W through my Glock, and I'm fine.

[YllwFvr]

46. aluminum frame ultralight 38 spcl

with +p ammo, had very little recoil. The guy I bought it from was a good gunsmith and ported it. I can say its a joy to shoot. Probably the most fun of my guns to plink with.

Im not familiar enough with ported barrels to say that was the reason but its a good lookin piece. Wish it wasnt a 5 shot, I would carry it. Its a touch too big for a BUG so it usually stays put up.

[Kennah]

50. I'm not a fan of ported barrels on a carry gun

Firing from a retention position puts the blast in your face.

You shoot a .38 ultralight with +P ammo and notice little recoil? Really? I salute you then. You're of much more sturdy stock than am I.

Times I've shot +P through my airweight, it felt like I wasn't even using a gun--just squeezing the cartridges until they exploded in my hand.

[YllwFvr]

53. yeah not too bad

cant see the porting but

ugh need to polish it back up

[YllwFvr]

45. wow a 32?

I cant say that Ive ever heard someone say they carry one. How do you like it? Subcompact pocket gun?

[safeinOhio]

48. I love it.

go to

http://www.seecamp.com/photos.htm

it is called the cadillac of small hand guns.

[YllwFvr]

52. i love the wallet looking pocket holster

nice looking piece. It must be a quality piece, you dont see shark skin leather for your average pistol.

[safeinOhio]

54. ain''t cheap

bought mine off a Michigan cop in a private sale. Had to get a permit to purchase, take a test about guns and go thru a background check. I had no problem with that at all. At the range I had several cops want to buy it from me when I had the laser sight on it. That made the gun square and imprint just like a wallet. There are only a few brand of bullets you can use in it. Read some of the links on the left side.

Pretty interesting about the old guy that makes them. Holds the patent on the modern double action for todays 1911 style gun.

[ileus]

28. I saw an officer today 4 mags and pistol....75 rounds

I thought with that many rounds you can use a mag or two for suppressive fire and still have 3 mags.

I think he was carrying a Beretta 92...

[YllwFvr]

44. i carry 52 rounds on me in three mags

little Nine mil

[safeinOhio]

49. How does that work at the beach

and on 100 degree days?

[YllwFvr]

51. land locked state :(

bu on hot days its easy when you open carry. Concealing is very uncomfortable on those days.