Gunmaker's 'Adaptive Combat Rifle' Too Combat-y: Fires Full Auto!

[beevul]

Gunmaker's 'Adaptive Combat Rifle' Too Combat-y: Fires Full Auto!

Josh Sugarmann.Executive director of the Violence Policy Center in Washington, DC
Posted: October 27, 2010 03:37 PM

When is a "combat rifle" for the U.S. civilian gun market too combat-y?

When it fires like a full-auto machine gun.

That's the problem Bushmaster now faces with its new Adaptive Combat Rifle (ACR), an AR15-style assault rifle that according to a May 2010 cover story in the National Rifle Association's American Rifleman magazine is a "transformative firearm."

Perhaps a little too transformative.

According to an "Important Bushmaster ACR Product Safety Notice" sent to Bushmaster wholesalers, distributors, and dealers this month:

Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC has become aware of a possible firearms performance issue that may develop with a small number of ACR rifles and we are requesting you discontinue the sale of these firearms that remain in your inventory until appropriate action has been taken....During routine test firing, Bushmaster discovered a design flaw which could result in multiple rounds firing continuously when the trigger is pulled. This unexpected firing of multiple rounds creates a potential dangerous situation.

In other words, they're full-auto machine guns.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/gunmakers-adaptive-combat_b_774918.html

Question:

Is anyone at all willing to stand behind Mr. Sugarman on this?

In the decade plus that I have been following the firearm rights vs. firearm prohibition/regulation battles, this "piece" (no pun intended) by Mr. Sugarman ranks highly among the most misleading, dishonest, and disingenuous I have ever seen.

And lest anyone forget, the illustrious Mr. Sugarman is/was a FFL holder, which would lead the layman to presume he has at least some knowledge of firearms.

[Xmit]

1. Is there a difference..

Between a weapon that is designed to operate a certain way, and one that can malfunction a certain way?

I think the answer is pretty obvious. And anyone with more than one brain cell should be able to recognize that the company is taking action to stop the sale of a flawed design. Hopefully we will see a recall.

I see that sensationalism knows no bounds all around.

[AtheistCrusader]

47. Sounds like a runaway. That is definitely NOT full-auto mode.

[Glassunion]

2. I remember a story from a while back where someone was at a gun range

And their firearm(a handgun) malfunctioned and fired the three rounds remaining in the magazine.

As I recall, this individual who never made a modification to the gun was arrested and charged with the possession of an illegal firearm. I believe that the manufacturer even supported the guy and proved that it was a malfunction of the firearm.

Anyhoo... Someone should remind Mr Sugarman that shit sometimes does not work as designed. Toyota comes to mind... Was that a manufacturing defect, or was Toyota making combat-y Camrys?

[oneshooter]

4. Acording to the BATFE "once a full auto, always a full auto" n/t

[derby378]

53. That only applies to the receiver

That's how all those parts kits from the Warsaw Pact made it into America - the old full-auto receivers were removed so that the kits could be built on semi-auto receivers over here.

[sam sarrha]

6. i really doubt someone at a firing range would be arrested, probably just told to get it fixed..

sounds like an Urban Legend. screw the BTAF, a gun is what it is.. if it shoots one round at a time it isn't an auto.

when the GOP F's everything up and the country crashes.. if you don't have a 9mm and an assault weapon the Gangs will have your kids for dinner.. i used to teach NRA safety classes in the 70's. i didn't own a gun till Bu$h43, now i have 4, and a CCP. a 9mm on each end of the house in a finger touch key safe. i practice at the range twice a month. the GOP has said they will shut the government down with impeachment indightments on Obama,if they get a majority.. they have already overthrown the government by filibuster.. read the Shock Doctrine, they want to destroy the country so a Utopia will rise out of the ashes. the F'rs are crazy

we are not out of the woods from the Bu$h43 crash... the only reason more people haven't foreclosed is they don't have enough people to process the paper work.

the richest 1% have 42% of financial wealth, the bottom 80% have 7% of financial wealth and 72% of debt... the top 20% have 93% of americas financial wealth the top 1% have 6 Tines what the bottom 80% have.. now thats wealth redistribution.!! that is why there is a recession, no money ='s no jobs

GOP is a Cargo Cult of psychotic narcissistic OCD Wealth Hoarders, they believe that wealth is the Measure of God’s favor of a man, therefore it is a sin to tax a Rich Man/Corporation. the poor are being punished by God, therefore it is a sin to help them.

[Glassunion]

8. Found it... But I was wrong on the details. Funny how the mind works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Olofson

Was an AR.

[PavePusher]

12. Nifty, if rather broadbrushed rant...

but the BATFE actually has a history of exactly these sorts of things, as well as fabricating evidence, and outright lying.

They are notorious for having no sense of humour, no sense of mercy, and absolutly, positively no sense of proportion. (Also a broad-brushing, but probably truer than yours.:evilgrin:)

[one-eyed fat man]

14. Not quite an urban legend...........

David Olofson

An expert witness said then the decision was filled with problems.

"If your semiautomatic rifle breaks or malfunctions you are now subject to prosecution. That is now a sad FACT," wrote Len Savage, a weaponry expert who runs Historic Arms LLC.

"Hey, but don't worry," Savage said. "The people testing it have no procedures in writing and the testing will be in secret."

Olofson had been instructing a man in the use of guns, and the student asked to borrow a rifle for some shooting practice.

"Mr. Olofson was nice enough to accommodate him," Savage said. So the student, Robert Kiernicki, went to a range and fired about 120 rounds. "He went to put in another magazine and the rifle shot three times, then jammed."

A couple of police officers who also were at the ranged immediately approached him and started asking questions about the "automatic" fire, and he told them it was a borrowed weapon.

"Mr. Olofson, being a responsible person, went down to the police station and said, 'I'm in the National Guard. I know what a machine gun looks like. That's not it,'" Savage said.

But instead of having the issues resolve, Savage said, it got worse.

He said the rifle, which was subject to a manufacturer's recall because of mechanical problems at one point, malfunctioned because of the way it was made.

Savage said once the government confiscated the gun, things got worse.

"They examined and test fired the rifle; then declared it to be 'just a rifle,'" Savage said. "You would think it would all be resolved at this point, this was merely the beginning."

He said the Special Agent in Charge, Jody Keeku, asked for a re-test and specified that the tests use "soft primered commercial ammunition."

"FTB has no standardized testing procedures, in fact it has no written procedures at all for testing firearms," Savage said. "They had no standard to stick to, and gleefully tried again. The results this time...'a machinegun.'

The ATF pursued an indictment and Mr. Olofson was charged with 'Unlawful transfer of a machinegun.'. Not possession, not even Robert Kiernicki was charged with possession (who actually possessed the rifle), though the ATF paid Mr. Kiernicki 'an undisclosed amount of money' to testify against Mr. Olofson at trial," Savage said.

There was plenty of discussion of the case here on DU and you can find much on the web, with folks grinding their axes both ways. The upshot he was convicted, sentenced, appealed and denied. Depending on who you believe, he either had an illegally converted machinegun missing an drop in auto sear and deserved what he got even if they couldn't prove it or he was railroaded for having a gun malfunction by an out of control ATF.

[bluedigger]

15. I'm a little confused.

The wiki link upthread http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Olofson says this: "Kiernicki testified that Olofson had told Kiernicki that the third position of the rifle's firing selector was for automatic firing, but it jammed, court records indicate."

According to wiki's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15 AR-15 entry: "Civilian AR-15 models do not have three-round burst or automatic settings on the fire selector. In semi-automatic only variants, the selector only rotates between safe and semi-automatic. Due to this, weapons modified to full automatic using a lightning-link are capable of full automatic fire only -- unless a special full automatic fire select mechanism and modified selector-switch is substituted.<12>"

It sounds like the weapon had been modified (poorly) and BATF made a good bust to me.:shrug:

What am I missing?

[one-eyed fat man]

24. Here's more

Neither Olofson nor his friend was charged with possession of an unregistered machinegun or with illegally manufacturing, modifying, or otherwise making a machinegun. Obviously ATF did not believe they could convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt that Mr. Olofson or his friend had intentionally altered the rifle to fire full-auto so they prosecuted on the easier charge of transferring. Everyone agreed that the gun belonged to Olofson and that he had loaned it to his friend. That meant that the only issue in question in the case was whether the gun was a machinegun. Since ATF is the final arbiter in determining whether a gun is a machinegun, and the law defining machineguns tends to be selectively interpreted by them, the government had a distinct advantage.

As a matter of fact, when the ATF Firearms Technical Branch (FTB) examined the rifle they concluded that it was not a machinegun. They did find that if the Safety switch was moved beyond its normal range of motion, the gun would fire once and jam, leaving a loaded round in the chamber. They determined that moving the Safety in such a way interfered with the trigger disconnecter causing the hammer to follow the bolt as it returned to battery rather than being stopped by the sear; a not uncommon malfunction known as hammer-follow.

At the request of the local ATF agent, the FTB tested the gun a second time using a brand of .223 ammunition known for having sensitive primers.* Those tests resulted in intermittent, unregulated, automatic fire and jamming due to hammer-follow, but this time the FTB concluded that, under strict interpretation of the law, the gun’s malfunction did make it a machinegun.

The cornerstone of this charge is the government’s contention that it doesn’t matter whether a gun fires multiple shots as a result of malfunction or modification because the law defines a machinegun as; “… any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.” While on the witness stand, firearms expert Len Savage asked the Assistant US Attorney prosecuting the case if that would make his grandfather’s old double-gun a machinegun if it malfunctioned and fired both barrels with one pull of the trigger. The AUSA responded by paraphrasing the legal definition of a machinegun with emphasis placed on “any weapon which shoots… more than one shot… by a single function of the trigger.”

Anyone experienced with semi-automatic firearms knows that hammer-follow is a not-quite uncommon malfunction which usually does not result in a sharp enough blow to the primer to result in ignition. When it is enough to trigger the primer, the resulting fire is very dangerous for the shooter. Semi-auto firearms are not designed to withstand the stresses of full-automatic fire, particularly unregulated automatic fire. A true machinegun has mechanical systems in place to control the gun’s rate of fire, literally pausing momentarily between shots. A gun firing by hammer-follow does not have these controls and will fire as fast as the bolt spring can cycle the action.

In the Olofson case, the government entered into evidence a tightly edited video clip of one of their testers firing Olofson’s gun for a relatively long full-auto string. The cyclic rate was estimated to be near 1700 rounds per minute, more than twice that of a properly regulated M16. The shooter clearly understood the danger involved as he was holding the firearm well away from his face and body in obvious fear that the rifle would break apart at any moment.

It is possible that the gun was set-up for a device known as a "drop-in auto sear". The government never alleged that, not did anyone produce one as evidence. If indeed he had one, they didn't find you could argue he belonged in jail but went for the wrong reason. Here is a picture of a drop in sear. One can be built using tools no more sophisticated than a hand drill and a good sharp file.

More info on drop in sears

Note on primer sensitivity.

National Match and Hi-Power competitors during the course of fire shoot a stage called "slow-fire" at 600 yards. A requirement of the stage is for rounds are loaded one at a time. Military and military-style semi-auto rifles seldom have firing pin retraction springs. If care is not used in assembling ammunition, a “slam-fire” can occur before the bolt locks. Semis should never be hand chambered, i.e. the round hand fed into the chamber, then the bolt released to slam home.

The round should be fed into the magazine, then the bolt released to strip the round out of the mag, fed, and the bolt enter battery the way the system was designed. This incorporates the deceleration forces inherent in the magazine feeding process, keeping the inertia of the firing pin below the degree of force necessary to trigger a primer. Since having a rifle fire before the bolt has locked fully to contain the explosion of the propellant is dangerous, and the risk is high when using "soft" primers in a malfunctioning gun. The ATF agent making the demo for the trial was holding the rifle as far away from his body as he could as he clearly understood it might come apart in his hands. That is one reason the military arsenals attempt to preclude slamfires using different techniques and components—including different primer sensitivity specifications—from their commercial counterparts.

Regardless, primers used in match ammo is often more sensitive, and "slam-fires" while not common, do sometimes occur. The Garand, M1A/M14, AR/M16 rifles are all known for occurrences.

More info on "slam fire"

It's a lot more complicated case than it looks, no matter how anyone thinks it should have turned out.

[krispos42]

52. So if I have a semi-automatic rifle...

...and a lot of magazines full of ammunition, and I shoot enough so that the firing chamber gets hot enough to cook off rounds without the firing pin touching the primer...


...I have a machine gun?



I guess I'd better go turn in my 10/22 then.

[RamboLiberal]

7. I saw a Glock do this last summer

Would double or triple fire. We had a Glock trained armorer at the range that day and he couldn't correct it. I think the guy ended up having to send it to Glock or sending it back with the armorer to fix.

[Glassunion]

9. I had something similar happen when doing drills with an instructor.

But I cannot say it was a malfunction. We were going through magazine after magazine and there was one squeeze of the trigger where it seemed like a second round immediately followed the first.

I could have squeezed it a second time, but it was not in the rhythm that I was shooting.

Never happened again.

[Straw Man]

42. Doubling and tripling Glocks?

I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know, but Glock triggers (among others) will reset long before they are fully forward. If you squeeze again at this point, it will fire. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it doesn't take much of a squeeze to trip a Glock trigger once all the take-up has been taken up (in other words, when it's right at the break/reset point in the trigger's travel). A little "hiccup" in your shooting rhythm can result in a dramatic difference in the timing of the next round. I'm not saying this is what happened, but you might have thought you were just controlling your release when in fact you were squeezing a tiny bit at that critical point.

Not sure if I made myself clear, but that was my experience when I was in a class and the instructor was teaching us to fire rapidly by controlling our trigger travel so as to let it just barely reset. Once you get the rhythm, it's possible to fire VERY rapidly, but while you're learning, the tempo is inconsistent: BANG, BANG, BA-BA-BANG, BANG, BANG, BA-BANG, BANG. (Yes, it's a G26. ;-))

[Glassunion]

45. Mine too!!! I love my 26.

It never happened again, so I have chalked it up to me squeezing the trigger. But I will tell you, it happened quick. I was about 4 rounds into a full magazine. I shot the 4th round and the 5th round fired while the gun was still recoiling up-wards. I struck the target clip.

[Katya Mullethov]

10. Once a machine gun ..Always a machine gun .

That's why I never wear shoes .

[Pavulon]

11. People polish disconnectors and mess with plunger springs

striker and trigger return springs. A good balance makes a great trigger (short of a 1911) a bridge to far makes a machine pistol (technically it slam fires).

Useless as a weapon at that point.

[AtheistCrusader]

48. Olympic Arms AR-15's used to do this.

They even mandated a recall for it. Not good.

[lawodevolution]

3. Thanks for the gun advice

as soon as they work out the bugs I'm getting one. Thanks VPC

[benEzra]

5. The ACR is an "AR15 style assault rifle"? Lolwhut?

AR-15: Direct gas impingement, totally straight-line action, independent recoil buffer and recoil spring in line with the bolt carrier.





ACR: Gas piston system, recoil spring is above the bore, nothing behind the bolt carrier. The ACR actually has more in common layout-wise than the AK does.





Yeah, they're both .223, and the ACR was designed to take STANAG magazines just like the AR-15 does, they both have some typical features of a modern rifle (separate handgrip, protruding magazine), and the ergonomics of both are good. But AFAIK, the Masada/ACR was a clean-sheet design. I think he was just trying to smear the most popular civilian rifle in America with a little "guilt by association".

[PavePusher]

13. Our good buddy Josh? Oh, the humanity...!

:sarcasm: (if I must)

[benEzra]

20. Oops, typo...

Should read "the ACR has more in common layout-wise with the AK than the AR." Dunno how I screwed that sentence up so badly...

[Callisto32]

33. Functionally, its more like an AK, if I understand the design correct.

The gas is tapped, which imparts motivation to a tappet rod that subsequently impacts the bolt carrier, unlocking the bolt and initiating movement.

Nothing like a DI, gun. (Armalite Rifle)

[benEzra]

51. Yes, exactly.

The AR has a gas tube that directs propellant gas from under the front sight base into the piston portion of the bolt/bolt carrier, and then vents the gas to the atmosphere via two holes in the side of the bolt carrier. The AR also uses a separate recoil buffer in a tube behind the cylindrical bolt carrier, and the bolt carrier recoils into the buffer tube during recoil; the recoil spring lives behind the buffer in the stock. That's why you can't put a folding stock on an AR-15.

The ACR and AK both have a gas piston setup (the AK has the gas piston attached to the bolt carrier, the ACR may have a separate SKS-style tappet as you described), a traditional recoil spring (sans buffer) that is located above the barrel, and nothing cycles to the rear of the receiver, allowing the use of folding stocks.

Saying the ACR is an "AR-15 style" rifle is like saying a Cooper Mini S is a "Lotus Exige style" car. Completely different layouts, and the only similarity is that they are both relatively lightweight sport compacts that are fun to drive.

[AtheistCrusader]

49. Yeah, 'AR-15 Style Assault Rifle' means M-16.

Paul doesn't know what he's talking about, ever. On anything. It's hilarious.

[saras]

16. No engineers in THIS thread...

If a gun CAN become a full-auto from a "malfunction" of any sort short of massive, intentional re-machining, it was designed to become a machine gun.

It really IS that simple.

[intaglio]

17. Sarah, please don't tell the gun dungeon this

They will argue the point with little sound reasoning. I was once told that a new interrupter for an AK style weapon would require CNC machining, high quality steels and that the AK's manufactured by tribal gunsmiths in Pakistan were useless - this despite their effectiveness against US and Russian troops.

So don't bother they won't listen

[aikoaiko]

19. As if you were interested in a discussion where you listened too, eh?

[Katya Mullethov]

23. Are you

Makin' fu fu fu fu fu fu fu fufunna me ?

[Euromutt]

56. Assuming your representation of the other party's assertions is correct

Of course it's ridiculous to argue that any part for a rifle designed in the 1940s to be made in Soviet arms manufacturing plants is going to require NC--let alone CNC--machining. However, converting a semi-auto-only AK knockoff into a weapon capable of automatic fire takes a little more effort than making a new sear and dropping it in, because the receivers of semi-auto-only AK knockoffs are made not to accept auto-capable sears and bolt carriers. You would, in fact, have to add metal to various parts to get the receiver to accept such parts.

And while the "Khyber Pass copies" are by no means useless, it's worth noting that in that part of the world, Chinese and especially Russian-made AKs are held in considerably higher regard. Because Khyber Pass copies are often made of inferior quality steel, it is dubious whether they will stand up to the pressures generated by factory-made ammunition from Russia, China, etc.

It's also worth noting that Khyber Pass copies were by no means a mainstay of the mujehadin and Taliban; in the 1980s, the CIA provided large numbers of Chinese-made copies of Sov weapons to the mujehadin, and anyone who expects to get some serious use out of his rifle is going to be carrying one of those, or a captured Soviet-made one.

[aikoaiko]

18. That's not quite true. the not-so-clever use of a shoestring can achieve multishots per trigger pul

But modifications like the one with the shoe string or making a gun slam fire through modification is not the same as thing as designing it to become a machine gun.

You are correct that modern semi-auto rifles are supposed to be designed as as not easily to be converted into safe, operational machine guns.

Moreover, Bushmaster appears to be proactive on this issue.

[oneshooter]

21. The BATFE once declared a shoestring as a "full auto device" n/t

[aikoaiko]

22. Correct, but my point was that even though you can achieve multiple round burst with the shoestring

...that doesn't mean the semiauto rifle was designed to become a machine gun as the above poster states.

[Xmit]

25. So it should be easy for

You to find me an example of a fully automatic firearm that it designed to fire at half battery and possibly explode in the face of the operator?

Because in this case, the rifle is not designed to operate from an open bolt position, which is what you get with a slam fire. So, once again you will give your expert testimony that it was designed this way with another example, correct?

(edit) response to #16

[one-eyed fat man]

26. The ATF can be hard to pin down.

Yep, here you go!!!!! the "Macrame Machinegun"



Consistency, clarity, and common sense have never been a hallmark of ATF rulings. Yes, back in 1996 the ATF did rule a boot-lace was indeed, a machinegun. If you look closely at the picture above you will see a metal tag with a serial number attached to the string. The "maker" paid the tax and ATF duly registered the shoelace.

When the question was asked again in 2004, the ATF reiterated its position a boot-lace was still a machinegun.

"We already told you a bootlace is a machinegun!" Letter

Three years later in June of 2007, the ATF reconsidered and issued this letter.

"We changed our mind about shoestrings" Letter

Anyone who deals with the ATF and the Firearms Technology Branch in particular knows that having an ATF ruling and Letter in hand is worthless as a defense if they change their minds and decide to take you to court. They know you will go broke paying your lawyer to defend you before they run out of resources to perse...er, prosecute you.

[X_Digger]

27. If a car can fly off a cliff, short of massive re-machining, it was designed to become a plane? n/t

[slackmaster]

28. Only if you are driving it on a treadmill when it takes off

:nuke:

[Katya Mullethov]

29. There are none at technical branch either

And I would testify under oath that this statement is 100 PERCENT ACCURATE !

Well ...... I could do that if I worked at technical branch , or a snitch .

[Callisto32]

34. Tell that to the guy who designed the SKS.

Slam fire is NOT full auto fire.

Obviously there are no firearms engineers in this subthread.

[Euromutt]

57. Depends what you mean by "design"

In common parlance, "design" implies intent; when we say a device was designed to perform a certain action, it implies that the designer deliberately intended the device to do that. Now, it may not mean precisely that in engineer-speak, and I can certainly see the argument that when a design error results in the device doing something it wasn't supposed to, it was still, strictly speaking, designed to do that, albeit erroneously.

But you can't impose a usage of a word that is specific to a sub-class of people (in this case, engineers) and assert that the way that word used by the general population is "incorrect." When you say "the ACR was designed to become a machine gun," most people will interpret that to mean that the designer/manufacturer intended that to be the case; if that's not what you're implying, you need to make that explicit, or you're being misleading.

[MicaelS]

30. Bushmaster HAS issued a recall on Oct 15...

PDF file http://www.google.com/#hl=en&expIds=17259,18167,26637,27182,27197,27284&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=bushmater+acr+recaLL&cp=20&qe=YnVzaG1hdGVyIGFjciByZWNhTEw&qesig=I4OXar0yi4kYIg7F4zGWKQ&pkc=AFgZ2tmBlLb8SZom_ipMeqD62fcximGj3iS9wuMV3p-kbwsysN1I0gioC8pNLwTXLXcH8JE1ZHXEihBGnhFvfYwyJu1g2lWe9A&pf=p&sclient=psy&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=bushmater+acr+recaLL&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=b7b968c575c3858f

http://www.defensereview.com/bushmaster-acr-adaptive-combat-rifle-recalled-gun-going-full-auto/

The ACR, like the FN SCAR has a polymer lower. If there were problems with the molding of the lower, and the trigger group fit poorly, it could go full auto. So I would say it is no BS by Sugarman.

Bushmaster Firearms Intentional, LLC has become aware of a possible firearms performance issue that may develop with a small number of ACR rifles and we are requesting you discontinue the use of this rifle immediately, and contact us at your earliest convenience so that we can make the necessary arrangements to have the rifle returned to us for inspection and update if necessary.

All Bushmaster produced ACR rifles are impacted by this notification.

During routine testing, Bushmaster discovered a design flaw which could result in multiple rounds firing continuously when the trigger is pulled. This unexpected firing of multiple rounds creates a potentially dangerous situation.

Since the safety and quality of our firearms is our utmost concern, Bushmaster is implementing the following corrective action plans to correct the effected firearms as quickly as possible.

Therefore, we are requesting your timely assistance with the following action:

1) Please immediately discontinue the use of your ACR rifle(s).

2) Contact our Customer Service Department at 1-800-883-6229, (Monday-Friday, 8:30 AM -6:00 PM EST).

Please have the serial # of your firearms(s) available when you call.

3) We will provide you with return shipping instructions and issue you a RMA # (Return Authorization Number).

This will assist us in processing, and updating of your firearm and returning to you as expeditiously as possible.

The shipping address for the return of your firearm is listed below

Please contact us prior to shipping

Bushmaster Firearms International, LLC

Attention: Dept. ACR 999 Roosevelt Trail
Windham, ME 04062
[e-mail]

4) This process will be accomplished at no cost to you and will be completed as expeditiously as possible.

We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you, and we will return your firearm to you as expeditiously as possible.

If you have any further questions concerning this request, please call us on the above noted toll free number between the hours of 8:30 AM and 6:00 PM Eastern Standard Time.

Thank you for in advance for your cooperation in resolving this important matter.

Sincerely,

Customer Service Division
Bushmaster Firearms Intemational, LLC

[Glassunion]

31. So

His statement: "In other words, they're full-auto machine guns." was not BS? That is a 100% factual statement?

His other statement: "Accidentally selling full-auto machine guns to the general public" was not BS? That is a 100% factual statement?

[one-eyed fat man]

32. Why, of course!

Just like a malfunctioning Toyota was designed to to run through red lights at full throttle!

Same difference!

Oh, wait, a car was not designed to kill.................



That must have been a BIG consolation to the dead and maimed bicyclists.

[Glassunion]

35. Holy shit!

Was that guy going for a high score?

[AtheistCrusader]

50. He intentionally killed several people, actually.

[MicaelS]

37. I usually agree with you, BUT..

Posting a picture where someone get killed is in very poor taste.

[one-eyed fat man]

38. You may be right

it can also win a Pulitzer Prize. Nguyễn Ngọc Loan

[MicaelS]

36. You know...you're right

Sugarmann is full of shit like usual.

[PavePusher]

39. The problem is that Sugarmann is delebrerately, misleadingly and maliciously conflating...

"accident" and "manufacturing defect" with "purposeful intent", in order to whip up hysteria.

Unfortunately for him, we are on to his tricks.

He is very low-grade fertilizer.

[SteveM]

63. ...and has found a warm place to eliminate at HuffPo.

[Glassunion]

40. I cannot confirm nor deny that position.

I don't follow his work. :P

[one-eyed fat man]

41. Here's one of his more famous quotes

"The semi-automatic weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons — anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun — can only increase that chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons." — Josh Sugarman, 1988, Violence Policy Center.

Here he clearly and unabashedly advocates deliberate and willful deceit to mislead people into supporting his policy goals. Doubtless you recognize his hallmarks now.

[spin]

43. Sugarman obviously feels he is far more intelligent than the average citizen ...

and people are fools he can manipulate with his deceit.

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)

[Glassunion]

44. I get it... I work with a guy like that.

The guy I work with is one of the smartest people that I know, however he always takes the stance of authority in every debate.

He basically uses pure fallacy to support his arguments. Sure he could calculate to the nano-second the time it would take for an electrical current to pass through 63,487 miles of 6 gauge copper wire off the top of his head. But that does not validate every claim that he makes.

He makes claim that he took a biology class and a culinary class in college and further makes the claim that corn muffins cure cancer.
So yes it is a fact that he studied those fields and he uses that to imply that he is an above average expert, and simply due to that fact this would give him credibility in his claim about corn muffins.

Sure he is a whiz at physics and math. However I have seen him melt in conversations about culinary art or medicine, yet he still has the balls to stand by his claims even when shot down by real experts. But to the ignorant on a subject he is not an expert, he appears a genius.

[beevul]

55. I wish that a certain poster were here to see this thread.

Me, id say the quoted in the OP plainly proves intent on the psrt of sugarman, to add to that confusion.

Other posters in the past swore there was none.

[one-eyed fat man]

58. Even the most charitable interpretation

of Sugarman's statement indicates a willingness not to "correct" mistaken identity. But, based on his history he would have no qualms with an outright distortion or two.

Perhaps one of the more duplicitous was CNN's piece that plainly and repeatedly showed a machine gun firing while repeatedly calling it a SEMI-automatic assault weapon. They filled the screen with dramatic images of cinder blocks crumbling under a burst of machine gun fire.

Next, when they show a 'legal semi-automatic weapon' being fired, the camera shows another cinder-block seemingly unharmed. The implication being that somehow despite firing the exact same ammunition the legal version was somehow less potent.

They have a tight shot of a mannequin wearing a police style vest as a burst of rifle caliber machine gun fire rips through it. Meanwhile, the reporter keeps talking about SEMI-AUTOMATIC assault weapons. Predictably, the lie didn't last long until CNN was called on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60aIaNZA0h8

CNN, was forced to retract the story admitting that a semiautomatic firearm fires one bullet for each trigger pull then self-loads another round to be fired the NEXT time the trigger is pulled.

Reporter John Zarrella admitted and conceded a major NRA talking point, and thus contradicted the clear implication of his previous demonstration: "In fact, if you fire the same caliber and type bullets from the two guns," one illegal and one legal, "you get the same impact."

That pretty well shows the initially televised demonstration, put on for CNN by later disgraced Broward county Sheriff Ken Jenne, was very misleading and very possibly an outright fabrication.

The most deceptive portion, the use of department machine-guns as "stand-ins" for semi-autos to pulverize the targets while the bullets from the legal gun never hit the cinder-blocks. Small wonder they stayed undamaged. While the CNN camera stayed focused on the cinder-blocks, the deputy was firing into the ground. The only unanswered question is was CNN duped by a duplicitous Sheriff or a co-conspirator?

[beevul]

59. Yeah I remember that one.

That was beyond the pale as well.

[lawodevolution]

54. still is not full auto

Having a few extra rounds go off that you can't control is not full auto

[Remmah2]

46. What??

According to the Mexican president, full autos are available at all US gun shows all the time anyway.

[jody]

60. My Krieghoff K-80 Over and Under had a problem, finally corrected by the factory, of doubling. Are

all K-80s full automatic firearms?

[oneshooter]

61. Acording to the BATF YOURS was. n/t

[one-eyed fat man]

62. Assistant US Attorney Gregory J. Haanstad says so.

When asked by a witness "Are you saying if I take my Great Granddaddy's double barrel out and I pull one trigger and both barrels go off, its a machinegun?" He stated simply, "any weapon that shoots more than once without manual reloading, per function of the trigger, is a machinegun."

To those in the sporting culture who have derided "black guns" and so called "assault weapons" your double barreled shotgun is now next up to be seized and you could possibly be prosecuted if the ATF can get it to "fire more than once".

Hey, but don't worry. The people testing it have no procedures in writing and the testing will be in secret. Also if you know of information that proves YOUR innocence, maybe the ATF won't claim that it's tax information at your trial and prevent YOUR judge from viewing it.