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Looks like the 2A was incorporated with Strict Scrutiny.

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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 04:38 PM
Original message
Looks like the 2A was incorporated with Strict Scrutiny.
The majority opinion did proclaim the 2A a fundamental right. Laws regulating fundamental rights ARE evaluated under strict scrutiny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny
Strict scrutiny arises in two basic contexts: when a "fundamental" constitutional right is infringed, particularly those listed in the Bill of Rights and those the court has deemed a fundamental right protected by the "liberty" or "due process" clause of the 14th Amendment;


I must credit DU member rusty_rebar for opening my eyes to this jewel of language in this decision. Thank you.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Very Good!!!
We have some very observant members here
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. I expect judges to employ "selective tactical illiteracy" when ruling on gun laws
Until the Supreme Court brings them back to the excrement and rubs their noses in it.

It wouldn't be the first time.
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damntexdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yeah, a "jewel" among the b.s. -- ignoring the language of the 2nd Amendment itself.
Throwing away the "well regulated militia."
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. ...
"well regulated" at the time, and in this context meant 'well functioning'-

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/WellRegulatedinold%20literature.pdf

In Item 1, Anne Newport Royall commented in 1822 that Huntsville, Alabama was becoming quite civilized and prosperous, with a “fine fire engine” and a “well regulated company”. I suppose one could make the case that the firefighters were especially subject to rules and laws, but the passage is more coherent if read, “They have a very fine fire engine, and a properly operating company.”

William Thackary’s 1848 novel (item 4) uses the term “well-regulated person”. The story is that of Major Dobbin, who had been remiss in visiting his family. Thackary’s comment is to the effect that any well-regulated person would blame the major for this. Clearly, in this context, well-regulated has nothing to do with government rules and laws. It can only be interpreted as “properly operating” or “ideal state”.

In 1861, author George Curtis (item 5), has one of his characters, apparently a moneyhungry person, praising his son for being sensible, and carefully considering money in making his marriage plans. He states that “every well-regulated person considers the matter from a pecuniary point of view.” Again, this cannot logically be interpreted as a person especially subject to government control. It can only be read as “properly operating”.

Edmund Yates certainly has to be accepted as an articulate and educated writer, quite capable of properly expressing his meaning. In 1884 (item 6), he references a person who was apparently not “strictly well-regulated”. The context makes any reading other that “properly operating” or “in his ideal state” impossible.


Secondly, let's look at the preamble to the Bill of Rights-

The Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution.


The Bill of Rights was intended as a 'the government shall not' document- "to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers"- not a 'the people can' document. Rights aren't limited by the bill of rights; rather the scope of protections of certain rights are set. If the Bill of Rights were a listing of all a person's rights, there would be no need for the ninth and tenth amendments ("The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." and "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." respectively.)

And finally, let's look at the second amendment itself-

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


Who does the right belong to? The militia? No, the people. See US v. Verdugo-Urquirdez for the salient definition of 'the people'.

Grammatically this can be broken down into two clauses- a prefatory clause and an operative clause. Similar wording can be found in other writing of the time, though it's fallen out of favor these days. For comparison, see Rhode Island's constitution, Article I, Section 20- "The liberty of the press being essential to the security of freedom in a state, any person may publish sentiments on any subject..". That construction- '{reason}, {statement}' exists today, but we usually swap the clauses- "I'm going to the supermarket, I'm completely out of soda." or we add in a 'because' or 'since'- "Since I'm completely out of soda, I'm going to the supermarket." or "I'm going to the supermarket because I'm completely out of soda."

I know that complex English is lost in today's twitter-ful and facebook-y terseness, but it really does pay to read older documents when you want to analyze what a sentence from that era actually means.

So with the point from the first section, the second section in mind, and rearranging the clauses per the third would yield a modern restatement of the second amendment as-

"Because a well functioning militia is necessary to state security, the government shall not interfere with the right of the people to be armed."

or

"The government shall not interfere with the right of the people to be armed because a well functioning militia is necessary to state security."

Nothing in either of those statements says that arms are only for militia service, rather the ability to raise an effective militia is _why_ protecting the right to be armed is protected. Since we know from the preamble (and the 9th/10th amendment) that the bill of rights is not exhaustive, we have to look outside the bill of rights itself to see if the founding fathers expected this right to extend beyond militia service.

State analogues of the second amendment that were adopted in the same timeframe give a clue-

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/LawRev/WhatStateConstitutionsTeach.htm (sections rearranged by me)

The present-day Pennsylvania Constitution, using language adopted in 1790, declares: "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned."

Vermont: Adopted in 1777, the Vermont Constitution closely tracks the Pennsylvania Constitution.<15> It states "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State.."

Kentucky: The 1792 Kentucky constitution was nearly contemporaneous with the Second Amendment, which was ratified in 1791.<32> Kentucky declared: "That the right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State, shall not be questioned."

Delaware: "A person has the right to keep and bear arms for the defense of self, family, home and State, and for hunting and recreational use."

Alabama: The Alabama Constitution, adopted in 1819, guarantees "that every citizen has a right to bear arms in defense of himself and the state"

Arizona and Washington: These states were among the last to be admitted to the Union.<55>* Their right to arms language is identical: "The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men."<56>

Illinois: "Subject only to the police power, the right of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."<89>**


So from analagous documents created by many of the same founding fathers or their peers, the individual right unconnected to militia service is fairly well laid out.

* Admittedly, not analogous in time to the others, but still demonstrates the point.
** same

You should read other cases such as US v Cruikshank ("This right is not a right granted by the Constitution . . . neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.") or Presser v Illinois (""the States cannot, even laying the constitutional provision in question out of view, prohibit the people from keeping and bearing arms, as so to deprive the United States of their rightful resource for maintaining the public security and disable the people from performing their duty to the general government.")
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. IMO you will get used to the federal government protecting RKBA just like other rights. n/t
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Is this perpetually posted nonsense of implying that the words
"well regulated militia" mean that the right is not a "right of the people" part of a plan to drive those of us who know better insane?

Or do you believe that if you post the silly little unsupported implication enough times it will magically gain legitimacy in the real world--you know, the one out here where everyone else lives?

Or do you think you can convince yourself and your personal delusion will satisfy some deep, inner longing to live in a paradise with unicorns and rainbows?

What's your game, pardner? Spit it out.
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. You have been spanked by x-digger on that time and time again. You are simply wrong.
See Heller if you need more spanking.
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Yeah, twice in a row
Edited on Mon Jun-28-10 05:15 PM by DonP
But perhaps you need a new calendar, it's 2010, not 2008, the militia argument was abandoned by even "far right wing nuts" like Tribe and Dershowitz back in 2008 several months before Heller. Geez, even Hennigan and the Brady bunch gave up on it before Heller when they realized it was a dead end.

It had an addition stake through the heart again today. But feel free to keep reliving and re-litigating the past on what is now black letter law. You are one of the few that still feel the Militia clause controls the meaning of the amendment.

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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. LMFAO! Well regulated means of same type of equipment. You really need to see Heller.
It has been discussed at length and you are just plain wrong - or in denial.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Do you honestly believe
The founders wanted people to call 911 over 200 years ago?
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Keep beating that dead horse, it still won't rise to carry your freight. N/T
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. You might want to look for a different drum to bang away on...
this one's been dead for years...

(223, to be exact...)

You must have missed the memo.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
14. Change the fucking record
The meaning of the prefatory clause has been dissected ad nauseam in this forum, and until you can provide a cogent and persuasive argument why "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" does not refer to the exact same people as mentioned in the First, Fourth and Ninth Amendments, you don't get to pretend your regurgitation of the phrase "well regulated militia" has any validity in this discussion.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. Don't you guys know that the "well regulated militia" canard doesn't work?
Really, are you unaware?
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 02:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. Tonight Olbermann barfed up this load.

Why am I not surprised?
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
13. Looks like scotus blog picked up on it now too
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Deleted -- responded to wrong post NT
Edited on Tue Jun-29-10 02:37 AM by jazzhound
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