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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 12:06 PM
Original message
New York Microstamping bill ...
Pro:

Albany’s Chance to Be Tough on Crime
Published: June 7, 2010

The gun lobby has been hard at work these past few weeks in Albany trying to block smart legislation that would help police officers solve violent crimes. The measure would require, starting in 2012, that all new semiautomatic pistols sold in New York State be equipped with microstamping technology that would allow police officers to quickly match empty bullet casings found at crime scenes to the weapons that fired them. California already has enacted a similar law.

The microstamping process uses lasers to make tiny markings on a gun’s firing pin and other internal surfaces, identifying the weapon’s make, model and serial number. When a gun is fired, this information is stamped onto the bullet casing. That sounds like a very smart idea to us. The bill has the support of 100 mayors and more than 80 police chiefs around the state.

The gun lobby is pushing back hard. It predictably minimizes the public safety value of microstamping, claiming that criminals would file down all the markings. It exaggerates the cost of the process and claims that it would curtail the availability of handguns in New York. The State Assembly rightly ignored those arguments and has passed the bill. The Senate’s Codes Committee, which deals with criminal justice issues, is scheduled to take up the measure on Tuesday. Committee members should approve it, and Democratic leaders should then quickly bring the bill to a full vote.

More than 1,000 murders have gone unsolved in New York over the past five years. Senators who oppose this bill will need to explain to voters why they would deny police departments critical information that would help apprehend murderers and other violent criminals.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/opinion/08tue4.html



Con:


Another useless gun bill passed by the Assembly

By: Bob McNitt, Outdoors Columnist
Published: June 10th, 2010

I’m not sure who first said “We’ve got primarily idiots running our state,” but it seems with each passing year, that proves to be increasingly true. They can’t pass a budget, close parks to the public on one of the most popular tourism holidays of the year. But the latest bit of idiocy just passed through the Assembly and is now in the Senate Codes Committee. The bill, S06005A, requires that all semiautomatic pistols sold in New York State must have their firing pins microstamped with an identifying number which would theoretically imprint on any bullet casing fired (and ejected) from that gun.

The push to have firearms, specially semiauto pistols, microstamped has been around a long time, but the reasons it’s never caught on is rather simple to understand – unless apparently you’re an anti-gun liberal politician in the New York legislature – it doesn’t do anything to deter crime nor identify criminals using pistols. What it would accomplish, if passed, is to drive the price of pistols so high precious few law-abiding NYS citizens could afford them. It would also drive many legitimate licensed FFL dealers out of business and probably also deter firearms manufacturers from doing business with New York State, period.

The reasons this lunacy of legislative monstrosity makes no sense could fill far more space than this column has room for, but here’s a few. First is that the microstamp on the firing pin can be easily removed in minutes by using a small file or emery board, or replacing it with an un-stamped firing pin. Even those unaltered ones only identify the initial owner and not the current user should the gun be stolen. Since no states bordering New York have this law, law-abiding citizens could simply purchase their pistols in another state. Last but not least, the criminal element might also easily side-step it all by switching to revolvers (which don’t eject the casings after being fired), sawed off shotguns, or rifles.

COBIS, introduced by Gov. Pataki in 2000, is a program to collect identifying data from the shell casings of all new handguns sold in the state. This information is then entered into a database for use by law enforcement to aid in identifying and prosecuting criminals. Since its inception, over a quarter of a million shell cases have been collected and entered into the database at an estimated cost of $32 million and not a single arrest or conviction has resulted. In fact, COBIS has proven to be such a failure that no other state is even considering implementing their own version of it.
http://www.evesun.com/news/stories/2010-06-10/9815/Another-useless-gun-bill-passed-by-the-Assembly/


Text of bill at:

http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=S06005&Summary=Y&Actions=Y&Votes=Y&Memo=Y&Text=Y
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Rec for balance. nt
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Taitertots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. There isn't a single gun manufacturer that has a micro stamp gun
That isn't prohibitively expensive.

This only works if people in New York are too stupid to operate a file. I don't believe this to be the case.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
3.  If this passes I am going to stock up on firing pins.
The prices are going to rise and I can make a fortune!

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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Travis Coates Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Or you buy a lathe and be in business NT
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
8.  I will do that with the profits from fiing pin sales!! n/t
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michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #3
29. You do that
I'm moving to AZ, on the CA border and opening up a ammo reloading business. There's lead in them thar hills.
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lepus Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
32. hmm, a five to ten watt TI cutting laser, a milling maching that has been reworked a little bit,,,
a few relay lenses, and I'm in business.

Sorry, but this is so ridiculously easy to defeat from the point of falsifying 'evidence' it's not even funny.

I currently play with optics, a few thousand hours as a machinist apprentice, and am a qualified electronics tech in a few different fields, currently learning PICs.

You do not have to actually frame anyone truth be told, just figure the progression on the laser stamps and someone would get blamed if you shot someone.

But then again, this may be what they want.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. Like I said before: "Are they gonna ban diamond nail files and sandpaper too?"
This is teh fail...
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Or use a revolver
And drop casings from another gun. Even if they find the revolver, it won't match up.

Another law to make someone feel good without accomplishing a damn thing except increased revenue.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Shooters will have to be very careful to retrieve all their brass at the range ...
leaving the brass behind to be picked up by a bad guy might lead to their being a target of a police investigation.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. This law will apply to semi-autos only.
Edited on Sun Jun-13-10 03:35 PM by oneshooter
"The measure would require, starting in 2012, that all new semiautomatic pistols sold in New York State be equipped with microstamping"

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I'm actually surprised that revolvers were not included ...
That way, New York could effectively ban the sales of all handguns.

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Travis Coates Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #9
22. And what about all the pre stamp semi autos in the state now?
I realize it's NY so there probably aren't many but....
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. What makes you think increased revenue isn't the goal in the first place?
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. Shoot'em with a .38 Special revolver, drop a couple of 9mm cases
Or a .45 Long Colt revolver and drop a couple of .45 ACP cases.


Instant smokescreen. Maybe the cops would pick up on the difference, maybe not.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #17
30.  Better yet
use a 38 and drop a few 45 cases. Let them figure that one out!

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
11. Many gun sellers online WILL NOT sell guns to anyone in California...
New York already has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the nation. I understand that if you are in a gun shop, you can not handle a handgun you might want to buy if you do not have a license to posess a firearm. I KNOW that many simple gun parts cannot be sent to NYC and many not to NY State-I repair old guns and buy many parts from a large distributor in New York.

Tha microstamping law is ridiculous-no gun maker does this, an dthey will just not sell in NY state...and there are MILLIONS of old guns that are perfectly usable...no real need for anything new anyway...


Idiotic politicians....Idiotic Democratic politicians, in fact...


mark
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. Brass catchers might become very popular ...


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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Hey, that looks a lot like my carry gun.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Don't know if he'll hit anything...
but he's certainly ready for tea!
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. I knew an older fellow at the range who used a brass catcher ...
because he had difficulty picking up his brass when it landed on the floor.

He was an excellent shot.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. I don't think Callisto's comment was a reflection on the brass catcher...
...as much as it was on the fact that guy in the photo is using a "teacup" hold.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. What Euromutt said.
When it comes to firearms technique, I usually take a "whatever works for you" approach. I can't see how the cup 'n saucer/teacup hold can work for anybody, though.
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
28. For the record.
As a re-loader, I have exactly 0 problem with brass catchers.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
14. I heard that California was to require microstamping on Jan-01-2010...
how is it working out?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. According to calguns.net..
.. it's mired in patent issues. (It has to be unencumbered before CA will adopt the rule, and the private business behind the whole thing has so far refused to release the patent, in spite of having promised to do so. Even if he does, there may be other patents involved that he has no control over, and therefore can't release.)
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Interesting. Thanks. (n/t)
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
18. So they want to do microstamping AND they post the names and addresses...
...of thousands of pistol-owning CCW holders?


Smart, NY, smart.

*facepalm*
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-13-10 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Not just CHL holders, _anyone_ with a handgun.
Edited on Sun Jun-13-10 08:56 PM by X_Digger
There are 1.2M names on the list ("old" and "new")- that's everyone who has a legally registered handgun in NY State. I'm sure the actual CHL list is much much smaller.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. That is an invitation for someone who is interested in stealing ...
a handgun.

The criminal can find out who owns a handgun in his neighborhood, wait until the firearm owner and his family is not at home, break in to his home and grab his firearms. Even if the weapon is stored in a gun safe, most gun safes can be breached in a fairly short amount of time by an experienced burglar.

For a state that is interested in reducing crime through draconian gun control, that makes little or no sense.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. Do they have a spreadsheet
That a fella could point and click to sort by area and then number of permits ? That would be swell .
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-14-10 07:20 AM
Response to Original message
25. Who was it who said "insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result"?
Evidently, not the editorial board of the NYT:

<...> technology that would allow police officers to quickly match empty bullet casings found at crime scenes to the weapons that fired them.


Wasn't that exactly what they said about "ballistic fingerprinting"? As the counter-argument piece points out, COBIS has cost $32 million and Ghu only knows how many police man-hours to operate, with nothing to show for it. Maryland's similar system produced exactly one conviction in over a decade, at comparable expense. Given the abysmal failure of that approach, is it really that unreasonable to be skeptical about the efficacy of microstamping?

California already has enacted a similar law.


Enacted, yes. Implemented, no, because a number of conditions that had to be met for the law to be put into practice have not been met, and may never be. And the real question is not "do similar laws exist?"; it's "have those laws shown results?" Answer: no.

One quibble with the counter-argument piece:

Since no states bordering New York have this law, law-abiding citizens could simply purchase their pistols in another state.


Not without violating the federal Gun Control Act of 1968, they couldn't. Only holders of FFLs can take delivery of firearms in interstate transactions; if you're a private citizen, and you want to buy a handgun from a seller in another state, the seller has to ship to an FFL in the buyer's state of residence.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-15-10 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
31. A variation on Jim Crow's melting point laws; prohibition by any other name...
is still prohibition.

Among the Hall of Horrors which constituted the Jim Crow era were a raft of laws which were designed to restrict or ban guns to certain Others; most particularly blacks. When a law causes a weapon or ammunition to become grossly expensive or unavailable, then that law (through subterfuge) restricts or abridges a citizen's RKBA. A corollary to the First Amendment is the now-extinct poll tax.

IMO, this law (if enacted) will be challenged as other Jim Crow laws have been challenged.
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