Man choking his ex-girlfriend shot by her dad

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

PHOENIX - A woman's father comes to her rescue by shooting her ex-boyfriend during an argument.

Phoenix police say 26-year-old Daniel Fuches was choking the woman outside her residence near 51st Avenue and Beardsley when her dad came down from a second story window and shot her attacker twice.

Detective James Holmes says the dad shot the suspect in the leg first. "At that point he got the suspect's attention. The suspect pulled away from the daughter, picks up a big rock, comes at the dad now with the rock threateningly and the dad shoots him in the abdomen."

"I'm just picturing what state of mind he had to have been in seeing his daughter getting choked and worried about her to the point where he's jumping out of a window and down into the driveway to try to save her."


http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1275203

[wtmusic]

1. "Comes at the dad with a big rock"

:rofl:

A guy picks up a rock to throw at a man with a gun. What's wrong with this picture?

Here's what's wrong: the Dad shot the guy twice and the second shot was unnecessary, so he had to come up with a tall tale.

Give everyone a handgun - then everyone's a judge, a jury, and an executioner. Wonderful!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

2. I'll accept the abused woman and her father's story. You feel free to support the abuser.

[wtmusic]

3. You have no idea what happened. And your acceptance means jack. nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

4. Neither do you. Your opinion means jack as well. nt

[wtmusic]

5. Hypocrisy?

Do explain.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

6. No need to explain. It's obvious to anyone with an IQ above 80.

[wtmusic]

8. Actually anyone with an IQ above 50

would see that I never claimed I knew what happened, did I?

Gee, you're smart, Dave. :D

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

9. If you want to say your IQ is less than 50, who am I to disagree?

wtmusic (1000+ posts) Sun Mar-21-10 02:50 AM
Response to Original message
1. "Comes at the dad with a big rock"


A guy picks up a rock to throw at a man with a gun. What's wrong with this picture?

Here's what's wrong: the Dad shot the guy twice and the second shot was unnecessary, so he had to come up with a tall tale.

Give everyone a handgun - then everyone's a judge, a jury, and an executioner. Wonderful!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

7. The cops, DA and possibly grand jury will accept it also.

The father will never be charged and the criminal will go to jail.

[wtmusic]

10. So now you DO know what happened.

You called him a "criminal".

Apparently to murder your daughter's boyfriend in AZ you just have to tell everyone he was choking her. Good enough, ain't it pardner?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

11. Domestic violence is a crime.

[wtmusic]

12. So is shooting someone without cause.

C'mon Dave, who's gonna know?

Guy was an asshole, anyway.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

14. Shooting someone to protect another person from serious injury or death is legal.

[wtmusic]

16. So you buy the story of the big rock, do you?

I bet Dad even went and scrounged a rock to present. Too bad he couldn't scrounge a motive, too.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

17. I won't doubt the story of an abused woman and her father against that of the abuser.

[wtmusic]

21. That's a problem, Dave.

Because now you're saying that no matter what the father says, it's going to be the truth because the girl's ex is an abuser.

But since Dad's got a gun there's no need to try to find out what really happened - he's the self-appointed judge, jury, & executioner. And you don't even know if she was being abused, do you?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. It's not a problem. I don't have a duty to investigate this crime.

That is for the cops, the DA and the grand jury.

[wtmusic]

27. No DA or grand jury needed.

Just like you, the cops have already made up their mind, despite the ridiculous premise that a wounded man picked up a rock and threatened somebody with a gun:

"Detective James Holmes says the dad shot the suspect in the leg first. 'At that point he got the suspect's attention. The suspect pulled away from the daughter, picks up a big rock, comes at the dad now with the rock threateningly and the dad shoots him in the abdomen.'"

Dad probably wishes he had popped him a couple more times and finished him off, but he got scared. Fear usually figures prominently in these situations.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. Maybe you should tell the cops that since they are still considering charges against the father.

[wtmusic]

32. You are correct, my bad.

What is your point in posting these stories? That justice might have been served, but also might have gone horribly awry?;

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. Just posting current news events in the approriate forum according to the rules.

[wtmusic]

35. What do you find newsworthy about this story? nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. I didn't decide it was newsworthy. A station manager did.

[wtmusic]

39. You decided it was worth posting. Why?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. Because this is where defensive use of firearms topics are discussed at DU.

[wtmusic]

44. It's quite possible it wasn't defensive, isn't it.

After all, the cops are considering charges against the Dad.

Is this also the forum where excessive use of force is discussed at DU?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

46. It doesn't sound like it. There was enough evidence of the choking to charge the suspect.

It would appear to me given the limited information to be a justified shooting. To my knowledge excessive use of force can be discussed in general discussion, the state forum for the state in which it occured, the justice forum or if it involved a firearm the gun forum. I was asked by Skinner and the mods to limit posts which involved defensive use of firearms to the gun forum and I have treid my best to abide by their request.

[wtmusic]

47. Fair enough.

To me, it seems the first shot could have very well been justified, but the second was squeezed off in anger and Dad is trying to cover his tracks.

Situations like this tend to arise in emotional confrontations. People who are highly trained with firearms (law enforcement) are less likely to let emotions make life/death decisions.

Psychological profiles for prospective police officers also are evaluated, and high-strung types don't usually make the grade.

So again, I don't feel that most people are adequately prepared to own handguns. And this is possibly one example of why that opinion would be valid.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

48. The situation is quite plausible.

I've posted similar stories of criminals attacking someone armed with a gun with their bare hands. Since the incident happened outside and the fact that the suspect is still alive lying about the rock would be risky. They can check the rock for prints. They can check the trajectory of the bullets. It's quite possible the suspect was high on crack, PCP, alcohol, meth, etc. it's possible he mentally ill, he was after all trying to choke a woman to death in public. It's not like we should attribute much rational thought to his behavior.

[GreenStormCloud]

57. The first shot was unjustified, the second appears to have been justified.

Before you can legally shoot someone, the situation must be "in the gravest extreme". That means that you are all out of other options. The bad guy is doing something so evil that he must be physically stopped, even if the force used to stop him results in the bad guy's death.

A deliberate shot to the leg is unlikely to be sufficient to force a determined person to stop their actions. A shot like that is an attempt at extreme persuasion. That means that you are planning to shoot, pause to evaluate, then shoot again if needed. That means that you are aware that you still have time. You do not yet consider yourself to be all out of options. However, a shot to the leg can be fatal, if it severs the femoral artery a person can bleed out before the ambulance gets there. So a deliberate shot to the leg is still deadly force, but used too early.

He should have aimed the first shot for the bad guy's brain.

[eqfan592]

61. You make a point, but this does appear to be a special situation.

The criminal in question was choking his daughter, and the dad was standing above them. Any shot to the center of mass of the attacker might have risked going through the attacker and striking the daughter. It's likely the dad aimed for the only part of the criminals body he could hit without risking serious injury to his daughter. After the criminal stopped choking her and was up and trying to attack the dad direction, the dad then had a clear shot at the attackers center of mass.

Mind you, I'm not saying this is exactly how it went down, but I think it's a fairly likely scenario.

[Hoopla Phil]

68. And that is the #1 reason you NEVER shoot to wound. You ALWAYS shoot to stop.

The best way to do that is aim for center mass.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

31. How dare anyone fear watching their daughter be choked to death?

Are you serious? Honestly you should quit before you dig this hole any deeper.

[wtmusic]

33. Fear tends to make us all do irrational things

and a gun should never be used irrationally.

99% of the people with guns, IMO, are not mentally prepared to use them.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. That hasn't been my experience.

[wtmusic]

37. That fear doesn't make people act irrationally?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

40. Fear doesn't make everyone act irrationally.

[eqfan592]

50. And 99% of people who make up bullshit statistics based on "their opinion..."

are totally full of shit......IMO. ;)

Seriously though, say that to thousands of gun owners that annually make use of their firearms to defend themselves and others from criminals.

[kstewart33]

52. Count the dad among the 1%. nt

[shadowrider]

60. Does that 99% include 99% of police who open carry?

If not, why are they different?

[AtheistCrusader]

69. I didn't see anything 'irrational' in the OP.

Except the choking/domestic violence.

[paulsby]

43. it's not a ridiculous premise at all

how many of these types of incidents have you investigated or at least read complete case files on?

you find it ridiculous that a guy shot in the leg would grab a rock and attack the guy who shot him.

clearly, you don't deal with crazed felons very often.

[paulsby]

42. killing in defense of others is not murder

you are begging the question by referring to it as such

here's another hint. people can die from choking.

here's another hint. IF he was choking her, there WILL be evidence of that. skin tends to bruise, sometimes the hyoid bone is broken and etc.

how many choking incidents have you investigated? i've investigated at least a dozen. heck, i had one where a guy was choking my partner in front of me. she had good air exchange, so i didn't shoot. i hit the guy with a baton. and yes, it was justified.

regardless, what matters is the totality of the circumstances.

[wtmusic]

45. Agreed.

[eqfan592]

15. wow, really?

Just because he was shot twice, the 2nd shot was automatically unnecessary? Thank you very much for proving that you know exactly jack shit about firearms and their usage in a self defense situation.

[wtmusic]

18. I'd probably be laughing too hard at a guy throwing a "big rock"

at someone with a gun to do anything.

But of course that never happened.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. Are you trying to prove your point?

wtmusic (1000+ posts) Sun Mar-21-10 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Actually anyone with an IQ above 50
would see that I never claimed I knew what happened, did I?

Gee, you're smart, Dave.

[wtmusic]

22. Here's a test.

The man threw a big banana instead of a big rock. Do you still believe the story? :rofl:

[eqfan592]

23. Or better yet, pink fluffy unicorns!!

Seriously, is that how your brain works? If you can somehow change any story to be ridiculous in your twisted mind, then somehow it can't possibly be true? I have to ask you, in all seriousness, have you taken all your meds today? If not, please do so. Your DU brothers and sisters care about you, wtmusic....

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. So you KNOW the suspect didn't pick up a rock and move toward the father?

[eqfan592]

20. People in the act of committing a crime can do...

...stupid as shit when facing somebody willing to defend themselves with a firearm, including desperate attempts to distract/disable the person holding the firearm, or not believing the person holding the firearm is capable of actually pulling the trigger. And let's not even talk about the possible effects that shock may have had on the person in question, causing them to not think clearly.

Also, your reply in general doesn't even make sense in regards to the context of my post. What would you be not doing that I state you should or might be doing in my post that you'd be too busy to do? You'd be too busy laughing to understand firearms and self defense with firearms? Yeah, ok, THAT makes TOTAL sense!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. I worked a domestic violence stabbing one night.

The abuser was being escorted out of the house handcuffed and for some reason he decided that I needed to be kicked. So he tries to kick me, I move he kicks his TV and is promptly slammed face first into the carpet by the 450 lbs of police officers that were escorting him. I never said a word to the abuser. I was only there to treat his wife's injuries. So I don't look for much logic in the thought processes of criminals.

[shadowrider]

55. I'd think you'd laugh at him

Until he bashed your skull in with it. At that point, I believe the laughter would stop.

[spin]

64. Reminds me of the story in the Bible about the kid and the giant...

Rocks, even small round rocks, can be deadly.

The police will determine if charging the father is reasonable. In Florida with the "stand your ground" law, the chances are the father would walk.

[Liberal_in_LA]

25. ...picks up rock with bullet in leg...yeah, maybe the story is embellished

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. Because no one can possibly move after being shot?

[Liberal_in_LA]

62. I suppose they could

[shadowrider]

56. You underestimate the power of adrenalin

[GreenStormCloud]

58. Lots of people keep fighting after they have been shot.

It is very common.

[Liberal_in_LA]

63. oh, ok.

[AtheistCrusader]

70. A lot of people aren't even fully cognizant of the fact they HAVE been shot, till after the fight is

over.

Might not have been a serious wound at all, either. Shot in the leg could mean a lot of things, ranging from 'bleeding out in 5 minutes' to 'a scratch that won't leave a scar'.

[TheWraith]

49. "Double taps" is the recommended self-defense proceedure when someone is attacking you.

When using a handgun, you're supposed to shoot twice in order to increase stopping power.

[kstewart33]

53. Good point. nt

[shadowrider]

54. Agree

And in this case it appears the dad was trying to neutralize the threat with a shot to the leg. This didn't stop the perp who grabbed a rock (Yes, believe it or not, there are rocks in Phoenix) and came at the dad in a threatening manner. The dad then moved to one shot, center mass.

Good for him.

[GreenStormCloud]

59. That has changed. Now you keep shooting until the threat is neutralized.

However, if you are using a revolver and no speedloaders, then one revert to double taps.

If you have an autoloader and some extra loaded magazines, you blaze away until you don't need to shoot anymore.

[paulsby]

65. true. as a firearms instructor, i teach

"shoot until the threat is neutralized"

that;s how it is done nowadays, and rightly so

[TheWraith]

66. That's true, but a lot of people still practice the other way.

Personally all my firearms are long guns, so anything I shoot is probably going to die after the first hit.

[paulsby]

67. i work with a guy

who returned fire, defeated the guy, and lived... after suffering a 4 tap.

thank god for that and that's incentive enough for me to keep firing until the threat is neutralized.

i also think that regardless of what one is taught, in a true "oh shit i am about to die" situation, a double tap is unlikely to happen otherwise.

[proteus_lives]

13. Now that's a parent.

:thumbsup:

[kstewart33]

51. Thank goodness he had the cool head to do what he did.

Sometimes a gun is a handy thing to have.

[SsevenN]

71. I'm not a father

So I can only imagine the horror in this mans mind, as his daughter was abused in front of him.

I would have shot the bastard too.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

72. Most people would.