Snow Day essay… Handguns… Murder Rates… United States vs. UK, Canada and Japan.

[Glassunion]

Our murder rates are quite significant when compared to other countries. However, I personally believe that we should focus our efforts on the cause and not so much the tools. As I have stated in posts in other topics, I am listening on how we can do that. I do not believe in the mantra that “less guns = less crime”, nor do I believe in the mantra "more guns = less crime". The statistics do not prove, nor do they disprove either statement. Crime in America has been on a steady decline for quite some time now, however the number of guns has increased. I will not be so bold as to state that the increase in firearms has anything to do with the decline in crime, as I have found nothing that is 100% conclusive to back that statement at all.

I do however feel that our murder rates will still be as high as they currently are even with a full gun ban. The tools may change, the methods may change and the criminal may change. I feel this way because a full ban does not address at all the root cause of why people are murdering each other.

It was mentioned recently in another post about three countries; England, Canada and Japan. All of these countries have incredibly tight gun controls, or a complete outright ban on all defensive firearms. It was stated at how they seem to be getting along without handguns. The statement was correct, they are getting along. The statement made me think. So I started to do some research on the crime rates in those countries.

England and Canada are getting along with higher crime rates, suicides, more assaults, more assault victims and more rape victims per capita than the United States (based on what these countries report to the UN). But I would not blame that on the lack of guns. Just as I would not tribute our lower numbers in these areas to the possession of guns.

Japan sees less overall crime (based on what is reported to the UN)and they are on par in suicides. So is it the lack of guns that keeps Japan civil? Again, this is a statement that I would not make.

There has to be something that Canada, England and the United States seem to have in common that Japan does share?

Japan is more educated, wealthier, more competitive and far more literate in math and sciences as per UN data. Their gross national income per capita is higher than the other three nations. They also have incredibly low unemployment. Could it be from their lack of poverty that we (US, Can and UK) do not have? Now I think we are getting a little closer. As I do believe in the mantra “more poverty = more crime”. But that is just my opinion. But not all crime is driven by poverty. What about rape and assaults? Now I know that sometimes there is assault during the execution of a robbery, however not all assaults are robberies. This is where I get stuck. Why do three countries, one with an off the chart murder rate and another two with off the chart rapes and assaults have so many problems that the fourth does not? I do not know.

Let’s go back to where I started. Would the elimination of guns address the root cause of assault or rape or even murder for that fact? I doubt it. Taking guns away, does not address the issue of why. Does it?

Japan to me does not seem to be such a bad place with the exception of a “deep and profound” amount of racism in that country. That was a quote from the UN Commission on Human Rights. I think that my wife and I would have issues let’s say getting a job, or maybe even walking home at night. We would stick out a little.

I think that there are other factors that we cannot see in numbers on a page that points out the differences between these countries. Culture I think is a huge factor. If anyone here has visited any of these countries, one thing can be noted. There is a marked contrast between the cultures of these nations. It is not a bad thing. In fact I think it is something that should be celebrated. I’m the outdoorsy type, and I have had the opportunity to visit all of these countries. I loved each of these countries in turn for what they were, just as I love America for what it is.

So my point of all of this, is that maybe we can discuss ways of addressing the root cause of the problem and not so much on the periphery. Sure working on the periphery is quicker, easier and sometimes makes our politicians look like they are actually accomplishing something. But it never seems to take us that one inch forward. Instead, we sit here and spin our wheels.

What else can we do?

[jody]

1. One place to start is the Wikipedia source documents cited at "Race and crime in the United States"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Murder_and_non-negligible_homicide

[Glassunion]

3. So what are you saying?

I don't want to make any assumptions.

[jody]

7. No need for assumptions, one can read the FBI reports etc and draw reasonable conclusions. n/t

[Glassunion]

9. No, what I am asking is what do you think that we should do to act upon that information?

[jody]

17. What problem do you believe is defined by "that information"? n/t

[Glassunion]

19. Nothing...

It is a black and white report(no pun intended). There are no underlying causes and effects noted in the report.

Basically it is not giving me enough information to draw a conclusion from. It simply shows the demographic of individuals who are committing murder, there is nothing stated as to a geographic, economic, political, ect... standpoint. The report is lacking in underlying causes of the crimes.

[jody]

20. I doubt if any presentation of stats will show "causes" although the "effects" are clear -- crime.

If rates of an "effect" are different between groups, should that pose a question as to the "cause" for the difference or should that difference be ignored when debating policies to fight crime?

[aliendroid]

27. It would only be worth my time reading if....

It showed japanese american crime rates, which we could compare to Japan.

[kristopher]

2. Religiosity - Christian nation vs Buddhist nation

Journal of Religion and Society
Volume 7 2005
ISSN: 1522-5658

Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies

Conclusion

<20> The United States’ deep social problems are all the more disturbing because the nation enjoys exceptional per capita wealth among the major western nations (Barro and McCleary; Kasman; PEW; UN Development Programme, 2000, 2004). Spending on health care is much higher as a portion of the GDP and per capita, by a factor of a third to two or more, than in any other developed democracy (UN Development Programme, 2000, 2004). The U.S. is therefore the least efficient western nation in terms of converting wealth into cultural and physical health. Understanding the reasons for this failure is urgent, and doing so requires considering the degree to which cause versus effect is responsible for the observed correlations between social conditions and religiosity versus secularism. It is therefore hoped that this initial look at a subject of pressing importance will inspire more extensive research on the subject. Pressing questions include the reasons, whether theistic or non-theistic, that the exceptionally wealthy U.S. is so inefficient that it is experiencing a much higher degree of societal distress than are less religious, less wealthy prosperous democracies. Conversely, how do the latter achieve superior societal health while having little in the way of the religious values or institutions? There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms (Aral and Holmes; Beeghley, Doyle, 2002). It is the responsibility of the research community to address controversial issues and provide the information that the citizens of democracies need to chart their future courses.

[Glassunion]

5. Not sure I totally agree...

How would you suggest such a conclusion be acted upon?

[kristopher]

10. Suggest you google and review the paper - especially the graphs

This paper indicates that the degree social problems in a culture are related to the "religiosity" of the population. The higher the religiosity, the higher the degree of social troubles. The part I infer is that the root issue in "religiosity" is actually fundamentalism related to the belief in an inerrant bible. That sets up a conflict where reality is denied in favor of personal preferences that serve a range of interests.
That, in turn, results in ineffective public policy and a fundamentally unjust society. The greater the degree of social injustice, the greater the degree of social turmoil and problems with crime etc.

Much of this perception involves living in Japan for more than a decade.

[Glassunion]

11. A bit off topic...

I've only been there on a very short working vacation. I really enjoyed my time there. What did you like the most about the people?

[kristopher]

12. The experience was unique...

I went to college there and studied Japanese culture, so it was a very broad and deep immersion in their total structure of beliefs and values. It was sort of like taking reality as I knew it and permanently canting it 28 degrees to the left, then walking up the wall until everything seemed normal again, if that makes any sense. I suppose you could also say it was a comprehensive course in challenging my most fundamental presumptions about every cultural construct I was familiar with.

I can't really say what I liked best about their culture, it is like asking what you like best about our culture.

[SteveM]

13. From reading the conclusion, I have real problems with this...

Most of the people who are "strongly theistic, anti-evolution," where ever they may live and for all their faults, are not the major actors in violent crime. The study seems to establish a measure of "fundamentalism," finds a lot of it in some areas, and sees big problems in that area. But the numbers of people who are NOT so "fundamentalist" are large as well, and the cultures/economic stata are quite different; in short, most "fundies" probably are not doin' the crime; other folks in the same area are. Too many variables, not convincing.

[kristopher]

18. Perhaps it would be more clear if you read the full paper

and viewed the graphs.

Culture is a complex matrix of forces and nothing is simple. The problem as I see it is a dysfunctional society resulting from a large voting block that is disassociated from reality. Ineffective, even counterproductive policies such as "the war on drugs" and campaigns against abortion or gays are forced to the center of policy attention instead of policies that work to create a society where all citizens are given a sense of being valued members.


http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

[SteveM]

21. I agree with the corrosive effects of the war on drugs...

What you seem to be saying is that a largely law-abiding population of fundamentalists are responsible for policies that result in violence, etc., even if they did not commit the violence. I still have problems with this, though I will read the study.

Concerning the WOD, Inc.: this failed social engineering program was supported by large numbers of American in the beginning, including (presumably) those who were not so fundamentalist or bound by religious stricture (some gun-controllers refuse to say whether or not they support other prohibitions, and many liberals in Congress still support the WOD). Only recently has support for the WOD dropped significantly within the population. But the institution stumbles around like the Frankenstein monster, and few "leaders" in this country are willing to dump it down a windmill shaft.

I think the bigger problem is these social or "culture war" issues are the parameters set by the Far Right, but those frames have been readily adopted by the Democratic Party, since it has shrugged off issues which deal with economic security, stronger regulation of financial issues, stronger anti-trust actions and energy conservation, etc., thereby "making peace" with Corporate America; this ain't the party of FDR, or even LBJ. So what's left? Culture war issues. And Democrats don't fair well in these battles.

The Far Right is far more competent and knowledgeable than are Democrats about how to gain and hold power, even when in the minority.

[derby378]

4. Better schools, better teachers, and better curricula would be a big help

A lot of American public schools are a joke. The corporate-run alternatives are even worse. And not everyone has the money to put their kids in private school. I say we start with education and get the kids while they're young and impressionable, motivate them to want to learn new things at school instead of being numbed by substandard lesson plans taught by disinterested teachers.

[Tim01]

6. K&R For trying to actually fix the problem. nt

[Glassunion]

8. Thanks... I've been kicked back up to nothing.

;)

[damyank913]

14. Have you considered the population differences.

There is a huge disparity in population and wealth between the US and the other three. Similarly, there is a huge disparity in the US itself by region. Perhaps there's an "economy of scale" element in law enforcement and incarceration also at work. I know this will not be popular but the right of Americans to keep and bear arms might be a factor. I also think the social safety nets of the other nations is broader and bears consideration. Gets you no closer I know but it is interesting.

[GreenStormCloud]

15. In Mexico, handguns are all but banned.

The largest caliber that a private citizen can have is .380. However, most police departments will only issue a permit for a .22. And there is only ONE gun shop in the entire country. It is run by the government and is Mexico City. And we all know how peaceful Mexican cities are, don't we?

BTW - The Mexican drug cartels aren't getting those GENUINE AK-47s, RPG-7s, machine guns, grenades, etc. from American gun shows.

[Glassunion]

16. Point of order...

"BTW - The Mexican drug cartels aren't getting those GENUINE AK-47s, RPG-7s, machine guns, grenades, etc. from American gun shows."
Yes they are... CNN and mayor Bloomberg told me so.

[GreenStormCloud]

22. LOL. I love your posts. Good humor. N/T

[Glassunion]

23. What does ice cream have to do with gun policy?

[DirkGently]

24. Absolutely BUT

America's culture of violence, and in particular its culture of self-help law enforcement, and its gun culture, are intertwined. If we're going to address culture, we need to address attitudes, and that includes attitudes about guns. It's become a religious war, and all discussion is dominated by extremist views. If we're going to broach this subject reasonably, we must at least be able to talk about how to reduce GUN violence, because that is the primary form of American violence. In my view, it's the pro-gun lobby that has become absolutist and fanatical, and it poisons the entire debate.

[Glassunion]

25. I do see your point...

And thankfully our murder rates and gun crime rates are dropping. Nowhere near as fast as I would like. Perhaps our culture of violence is growing up a bit? Maybe one day it will mature into a culture of just anger, then into a culture of tolerance, then into a culture of love?

I hope it happens in my lifetime.

[X_Digger]

26. One correction.. "primary form of American violence"..

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/guncrime.cfm
"In 2006, about 68% of all murders, 42% of all robberies, and 22% of all aggravated assaults that were reported to the police were committed with a firearm. "

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=kftp&tid=3
"After 1996, less than 10% of nonfatal violent crimes involved firearm."

[aliendroid]

28. You should add Switzerland in there.

Lots of guns in Switzerland, and almost no crime at all.

[Glassunion]

29. In the OP

I was referring to the three countries specifically that were brought up by a poster in another thread, who was asking why we can't be more like them.