Suppose She Had Been Armed and Aware

[GreenStormCloud]

A few days ago a video was posted in which a woman was mugged and robbed of a ring in a parking lot.

http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Surveillance-video-shows-theft-of-90000-ring-82998462.html This video has close ups that show more detail.

Some posters claimed that a gun would not have helped her. Let's ignore the extraneous factors and focus on the mugging itself. There are lessons to be learned here in using a gun for self-defense versus being unarmed.

The mugger goes through the classics stages of that type of crime. Victim selection, stalk, attack, escape. She was identified as "next victim" off camera, probably while in the store. Then the mugger had to get within range. He did that by being dropped off from a car and then hiding behind the last vehicle in the row. When she came withing range, he pounced, then escaped. Notice that he seems to engage her in some conversation for a couple of seconds just before she attempts to run away. That is a common tactic of muggers - to attempt to put the victim off guard by asking some question and getting them to talking while the mugger gets very close.

Now suppose that she has a concealed weapon and is aware of what is happening around her.

1. Parking lot appears clear and she goes to her car. OK so far. She has one of those remote door lock/unlock devices that enables her to unlock her doors before she gets to the car. You can see her parking lights flash as she keys the device. The vehicles are: black pickup, silver car, small black vehicle (hers), white pickup.

2. Car drives through parking lot and drops a man off. Normal so far, but worthy of being monitored while she is loading groceries in her car. Do not let appearances fool you. This mugger was smart enough to dress so that he appeared to fit in. He looked "preppy".

3. Man goes to other side of white pickup and appears to crouch down to be hidden by the body of the pick-up. ALERT!! EXTREMELY SUSPICIOUS BEHAVIOR. Action required: Stop everything else, do not draw gun yet, but put hand under clothing and grasp gun, ready if needed. Face the man while backing away from him. Don't allow tunnel vision, keep glancing around for a possible partner who may strike from your rear. DO NOT TALK TO HIM!! (He will attempt to engage you in conversation as a distraction technique. Don't fall for it.) If he comes toward you, say, "STAY AWAY".

4A. Usually, at this point the mugger realizes that he may get killed trying for the crime, and he retreats. Get as good a description as you can an notify police. No crime has been committed so he can be charged with anything, but the police would like to know about it anyway.
-or-
4B. The mugger is a hyperpunk that attacks anyway. The gun is already in your hand. Draw and shoot, keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. Reload and call 9-11.

Notice that everything revolves around step three. Spot the threat and prepare to meet the attack. Guns are not a magic talisman. They are a powerful martial arts tool that is fairly easy to become skilled in their use.

Or you can simply be another crime victim/statistic.

[Orrex]

1. What exactly does "the thread is neutralized" mean?

[MisterBill45]

3. Threat neutralized means:

The person is no longer a threat to you.

He's either dead, seriously wounded and no longer attacking in any way, or fleeing the scene.

This is the same drill police use, with the exception that they can shoot you when you're running away under many circumstances whereas a civilian generally cannot. (There are exceptions but in general, running away means you cannot continue to fire).

The reason we use the term "until the threat is neutralized" is because of accuracy. It would be illegal to just "keep shooting until he's dead." under many circumstances. If the defender is capable, chances are "neutralized" means dead or dying. Three-six shots in center mass will kill almost every time. But sometimes, especially if the bad guy is on pcp or something, it may take 10 or more shots to get him to stop charging/shooting/attacking. That's why it's not advised to just shoot X number of times and stop. You shoot until there is no longer an immediate threat to your life or safety.

Hope that clarifies.

-Bill

[Orrex]

5. Thanks!

I wasn't sure if it was a euphemism or if it had a specific meaning. Now I know.

Thanks! :hi:

[rfranklin]

6. Yep, there's nothing as satisfying as putting a clip into some asshole...

and watching him bleed all over the pavement.

[Katya Mullethov]

13. It is that ringing , pinging sound actually

For some at least .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9d01zAmnMY

[rd_kent]

18. Really? You have done that?

[MisterBill45]

20. More ignorance please....

There is no pistol made that takes a "clip" There are precious few rifles currently manufactured that accept a "clip." virtually all the guns that DO take "clips" are 50-110 year-old semi-automatic or bolt action rifles suitable for hunting.

I assume you think gun owners are excited at the prospect of taking another human being's life. This is factually incorrect and is belied by the experience of every person I've ever talked to who's been involved in a shooting, including cops.

It's a horrific, traumatizing experience that usually causes PTSD in the shooter even when they did everything possible to avoid the situation and the shooting was absolutely necessary to defend their lives.

Your post is a drive-by insult. Period.

[rfranklin]

23. My error, I guess...my Ruger SR9 has a "magazine"...

Not being pedantic I called it a clip. They actually gave me an extra when I had to send it back for the recall. So I can actually get off 30 shots before reloading.

[GreenStormCloud]

28. The act of changing an empty magazine for a full one IS reloading. N/T

[Katya Mullethov]

46. 60 rounds = one Major asshole

And then I ownwyhab six ........sniff .

[GreenStormCloud]

49. Neat trick. The SR9 magazine only holds 17 rounds. N/T

[rfranklin]

54. Talkin' bout two magazines...

You really are like a little ol' schoolmarm...

[GreenStormCloud]

57. But you have to change mags, A mag change IS a reload.

So you can only fire 18 rounds without a reload.

[PavePusher]

59. Firearms are a technical subject.

It would behoove us all to get the terminology correct. It is the anti-rights people who glory in the confusion of inaccurate verbiage.

[oneshooter]

63. Doesn't the Mauser C96 "broomhandle"count? n/t

[Euromutt]

64. Actually, there are a few pistols that use charger clips, but they're museum pieces

They're all pretty ancient designs: the Mauser C96, and a brace of Austro-Hungarian designs from Mannlicher, Krnka and Steyr, ranging from 1894 to 1912. The basic designs are all well over a hundred years old at this juncture.

[spin]

21. That's the last thing that a responsible gun owner wishes to do ...

The after effects of a shooting are nothing to look forward to.

The shooter faces both legal and psychological problems.

Even police officer have difficulty dealing with a shooting incident.

When an LEO is involved in a shooting, whether as the target of an offender or as a line-of-duty shooter, there is unbridled attention devoted to the incident by news media and the public.

It is commonplace for law enforcement agencies to require “administrative leave” (or something similar) while even a seemingly “clean shoot” is investigated. Media fan the flames and the burden of shooting someone (under any set of circumstances) results in profound stress.

It is estimated that about one-fifth of LEOs’ fitness-for-duty examinations conducted by psychologists involve a backdrop of a shooting, two-thirds of the LEOs involved in a shooting experience noteworthy psychological problems thereafter and 70 percent of these LEOs exit law enforcement within seven years (Bartol & Bartol, 2004).
Part of the problem is that our civilized society holds firmly to the notion that violence between people must not be countenanced (except in the commercial media!) This axiom applies even to LEOs who use any level of force, and most certainly deadly force, in the line of duty. The individual who must resort to taking the life of another person, even for the protection of self or others, has been reinforced to feel guilty and rendered incapable of finding psychological resolution of the relevant conflicts.

Certainly LEOs differ in their resilience to stress as well as abilities and resources for coping and affect regulation. Nonetheless, the social framework applies a special filter for shooting incidents, making life difficult for any LEO who engages in a shooting incident.
http://www.nationalpsychologist.com/articles/art_v16n3_3.htm

[GreenStormCloud]

22. I shall be quite happy if I never have to do that.

People don't die quietly the way they do in the movies. Often it is quite noisy, gurgling as the lungs try to clear blood from the airways. In some brain hits the body thrashes around violently because the brain, scrambled by the shot, is sending scrambled impluses to the nerves. Sometimes they scream in pain. Sometimes they become like little children and cry for, "Mommy".

The reason I carry a gun is because I don't want that to happen to me.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. You should really seek some help! Last week you enjoyed reading about a murder and now this...

I'm sure they have psychiatrists where you live.

[Pavulon]

47. What's a clip? I've never seen one..

I think some old mausers used them and so did the M1 garand.

I think you mean magazine.

[Katya Mullethov]

51. Anyone thus impaired : see the above ping post

You will not easily forget what a clip looks or sounds like .

[Pavulon]

60. I was joking.

No modern firearms use clips. Any time I here a person talking about high capacity clips it just alerts me to tune them out.

[GreenStormCloud]

7. It means, "keep shooting until they are no longer an immediate threat".

That can mean anything from, "They surrendered before I could shoot" to "He kept coming, even though I had already shot him, and he didn't stop until after my gun was empty. I shot him 19 times." BTW - There have been police shootings in which offenders who were high on drugs kept fighting after they had been shot nearly 40 times.

[AtheistCrusader]

44. Keep shooting till everyone stops posting.

j/k

As the others mentioned, until your attacker signals surrender, flees, or is rendered mechanically helpless, due to loss of blood, CNS disruption, skeletal damage, or brain damage.

[Katya Mullethov]

50. Thread neutralization is often referred to in GD

as "bullying" or getting "pushed around" , but the technical term for this is called "being wrong" .

[teknomanzer]

2. These same steps can also apply to proselytizers

>:)

[sharesunited]

4. Yes, if she were armed and alert, she could have prevented this mugging.

And she would have been able to observe the license plate number of his ride.

Also, the mugger does not appear to have a gun himself.

One point awarded.

[GreenStormCloud]

8. No points. She wasn't armed, the criminal won.

It is unknown if the mugger was armed or not. That he didn't use a weapon doesn't mean he didn't have one.

[sharesunited]

9. If he did have one, then he was emboldened to commit the crime.

In which event, I would award zero points.

So I say, take the point. They can rarely be given.

[GreenStormCloud]

11. Strongarm muggings of unarmed people happen quite often.

That would be a lot of points.

[sharesunited]

12. I saw that movie. It starred Charles Bronson.

[GreenStormCloud]

14. Which one? 1,2,3,4,or 5?

One and two were pretty good movies.

3,4,and 5 were crap. But that's just my opinion.

[sharesunited]

15. 5 was plain hilarious. You knew the franchise was history.

[GreenStormCloud]

17. Three was kind of funny. Stupid, but funny.

I was amazed that they did a four or five. There was talk of a remake of One with Sylvester Stallone. He would be absolutely the wrong person to play Kirby. Kirby should be done by an Alan Alda type, with the focus of the movie on his personality transformation with only some action. That's why one and two worked. By the end of two, Kirby had completely changed, and there was nothing left for the franchise to explore.

[Katya Mullethov]

16. Observed weakness and apparent opportunity

When opportunity knocks , the brigands strike .

[sharesunited]

19. And one hell of an ostentatious rock. Presumably impossible to fence locally at this time.

[eqfan592]

24. How do you NOT see how amazingly stupid...

...and contradictory your post here is? "If he didn't have a gun, then he's just a criminal, but if he DID have a gun, then it's the GUN that 'emboldened' him to commit the crime!"

First, you admit that criminals can and do commit crimes, with our without firearms, then you go on to say that if they DO have a firearm, then the firearm is somehow the deciding factor. You do this without providing any evidence that the crime wouldn't have taken place without the presence of a firearm.

Seriously, shares, I can't honestly believe you're that jaw-droppingly stupid.

[sharesunited]

33. If you were going to commit a crime without a gun, why would you be carrying one?

Some things are so simple, yet you fail to see them.

[rrneck]

36. If you were going to defend against a crime without a gun, why would you be carrying one (a weapon)?

[eqfan592]

37. *sigh*

That you CAN use a tool to do a certain thing doesn't mean you MUST use a tool to do a certain thing. That criminals CAN use guns to commit crime is not evidence that they MUST use guns to commit a crime. That a person DID commit a crime using a gun is not evidence that they ONLY would have committed that crime with a gun.

"If you were going to commit a crime without a knife, why would you be carrying one?"
"If you were going to commit a crime without a bludgeoning object, why would you be carrying one?"
etc.
etc.
etc.

Many things can be used as a tool to aid in the commission of a crime, firearms included. The only difference between firearms and any other object is that firearms effectively act as an equalizer for the victim of the crime far more so than any other device available when the victim is armed with one. For just about any criminal you can replace the gun with a knife, and they'll still go about their daily business with a similar success rate. For just about any victim, you can replace the gun with a knife and place the victim automatically behind the 8 ball.

[sharesunited]

38. It is axiomatic, however, that you can't commit a crime with something you can't obtain.

And you are less likely to commit a crime with something which is scarce and difficult to obtain.

[eqfan592]

39. But that does NOT equate to making you less likely...

...to commit a crime IN GENERAL! THAT is the point you keep MISSING shares. I don't give a rats hairy ass if somebody robs me with a gun or a knife or a baseball bat. Either way, if I'm not properly equipped to deal with the situation (aka, armed with a firearm that I know how to use properly) I'm pretty well screwed. So in your perfect world, you've successfully made it less likely for me to be able to defend myself, but at least I'll be able to say that I got stabbed instead of shot, which is apparently a better option in your eyes.

[sharesunited]

40. That's only one side of the equation.

Here is the other side:

http://www.latimes.com/whnt-school-shooting-020510,0,4649465.story

[eqfan592]

41. That's tragic.

But that "side" of the equation is statistically VERY small compared to the other side, and given the "gun free zone" policy of schools, which limits the ability for people to even have a chance to defend themselves, you can't even say that particular story only represents one side of the equation.

"Crime emboldened by gun-free zone. no points awarded."

[sharesunited]

42. Say what? All the kids should bring guns to school?

You love guns too much.

[eqfan592]

45. I didn't realize that only children are at schools these days.

Oh wait, that's because that's not true. There's these people there called teachers, shares. Not sure if you ever heard of them, but they're all grown up (usually) and they are at school along with the kids.

And really, do you HONESTLY think anybody was suggesting that "all the kids" should carry firearms?? Do you HONESTLY think any rational person reading this wouldn't look at what you said and immediately see right through it? Are you honestly just going out of your way to lose as much credibility as humanly possible?

Anyway, you take care, shares. I'm pretty sure this discussion is now drawn to a close.

[rrneck]

35. How was he emboldened? nt

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

56. So this thug commits a burglury... but if he had a gun it was the gun which emboldened him.

The stupidity in your sentiment is unreal.

This thug's choice to commit a robbery, like many thugs' choice, was INDEPENDENT of whether or not he had a gun.
This case is proof of what we have been saying over and over and over.
Look at the states. Thousands of robberies and murders occur every year lacking any gun's magical emboldening abilities.
Please get a new dead-horse to flog... this one stinks. You would do best to avoid threads counterproductive to your worn-out memes.

[TPaine7]

10. I'm really impressed.

Yes, if she were armed and alert, she could have prevented this mugging.

[slackmaster]

30. That's real white of you to award the woman a "point"

For being mugged and robbed.

:eyes:

[rd_kent]

43. Anonymous internet discussion board emboldens idiotic ignorant postings.

[gorfle]

26. Situational awareness is always key.

I learned this during martial arts training. You should always be aware of your surroundings.

In this woman's case I can feel somewhat sympathetic to her situation. First of all, there are always cars and people coming and going in a grocery store parking lot. So your mind is not going to be immediately alerted when it notices such things going on around you.

Also she was probably in an affluent area of town. The grocery store was Whole Foods, which is a specialty food store not likely to be located in "the bad part of town".

I suspect that this specific store, and possibly this specific woman was targeted by the thieves.

[GreenStormCloud]

27. My wife and I reviewed and discussed the tape.

It is pretty good on what not to do.

[Katya Mullethov]

29. Count how many things this cat did wrong

Mesmerized by his shoelaces .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYOMyjIF1WU

[GreenStormCloud]

48. Yep. Walking looking down at the ground just in front of him.

1. Not armed.

2. Parked his car close to other cars. Try to park you car away from other cars.

3. Not noticing that he has just been cased. (It isn't the look of the three guys, but the fact that they come in, stand around a bit, then leave, all as a group.)

4. Upon leaving he should have looked around to see if he could see those same three guys.

I don't have a real advice to offer an unarmed person in that situation. With three guys, each one larger than you are, waiting for you outside, you are basically screwed. Perhaps have a can of pepper spray, strongest legal strength, in each hand, safety off, ready to use as you walk out of the place.

BTW - That appears to be a check cashing store, not a pawn shop.

For an armed person, park away from other cars, walk business-like into the store, notice who is noticing you, upon walking out with your money assume that you have been targeted. Put hand in pocket on gun and be ready. Don't walk to the center of a row of cars, instead walk to the end of the row, WITH YOUR HEAD UP AND OBSERVING, then walk along the row to your car.

[Katya Mullethov]

52. On initial contact

He made no eye contact . He was so intimidated by the Baggy Brigands enormous dungarees that he never once made eye contact with any of them . Little matter , as he undoubtedly would have conveyed anything but confidence .

[GreenStormCloud]

58. He would have conveyed fear, so I didn't list it.

If he had been armed that may have been a time to try some discreet brandishing. Let the gun play a little bit of peek-a-boo. But he is on camera and that could be evidence against him. And the BG are on his right side. If his gun is also on his right side, then he has a problem. They are already close enough to grab his arm before he can react. In a neighborhood like that one, a gun in each front pocket would seem to be a good idea.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Katya Mullethov]

34. You hear it but you aint listenin ' .

Distilled :

There are places that you probably shouldnt be walking around with your head up your ass . And it is no small coincidence that there are places on the internet where one thus encumbered should not post .

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Katya Mullethov]

61. And yet .......

[MisterBill45]

55. Victims are not at afault

for being victimized.

Perpetrators of crime are responsible for their actions. The victim wasn't doing anything "wrong," she was perhaps less observant than she might have been, but I am not/was in her head and neither are you. For all you or I know, she could have been armed and aware, but just plain didn't see anything until it was too late to do anything. This isn't exactly a close-up video.

A firearm and situational awareness will NOT save you in all instances. Sometimes you're just screwed. Period. I don't care if you're Wyatt Earp and Bruce Lee combined. If a BG gets the drop on you out of range of your hands and decides to pull the trigger, you're going to die.

Situational awareness will HELP to avoid giving a BG the chance to victimize you. A gun will give you an CHANCE to defend yourself against a bigger, stronger/armed opponent. But it doesn't give any guarantees that defensive attempt will be successful.

Because I'm a free person and refused to be victimized with NO option to defend myself, I carry and try to use situational awareness to avoid a bad situation. But I have no illusions that a gun will make me invincible, bullet-proof or give me eyes in the back of my head. If I don't see it coming, I can't avoid it. Sometimes the most successful outcome you can hope for is a chance to take a BG with you to Hell before you die. Sucks, but them's the facts. A CCW won't save you all the time. It just gives you another available tool. And NO ONE is so situationally aware they will see everything. We're still only human, regardless of training etc.

This is real life. You can do things to help even the odds, but you can't stack the deck in most cases.

[GreenStormCloud]

62. Potential prey has a responsibility to themselves and society to not be easy prey.

The attackers in those videos were human predators who prey upon other people. Since we are not predators, then we are all potential prey, commonly called victims. By being a difficult prey to take down we can discourage the predators, maybe even starve a few of them, thereby helping make society safer as well as saving ourselves.

By studying takedowns like those, we can see the mistakes that others have made and hopefully avoid those same mistakes. In both of those video, the victims were easy victims.

This thread has made me aware of the mugging videos on youtube, and I have been browsing through them to see what mistakes other made and learn from their mistakes. I will not be an easy victim.

[Katya Mullethov]

65. It is unfortunate , but we are all saddled with it

Brigands killed on the job is such a popular theme because it represents a light at the end of the tunnel to the people whom themselves feel victimized and ripped off by the revolving doors of justice . Catch and release doesnt just kill a lot of fish , it kills a lot of people too .