Man fights off four opponents...

[PavePusher]

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20100131/BREAKINGNEWS/100131008/1006/news01/Five+shot+in+Cocoa++police+investigating


Five people were shot and seriously wounded this afternoon during a backyard gun battle in Cocoa, and detectives are trying to determine what happened.




The shooting spree occurred about 12:45 p.m. Two victims were airlifted to Holmes Regional Medical Center in Melbourne, said Barbara Matthews, Cocoa police spokeswoman. The other three were driven by ambulance to Wuesthoff Medical Center-Rockledge.


All five victims are listed in “very serious” condition, Matthews said.


<SNIP>

Matthews did not have the shooters’ identities available this afternoon. She said the male in the carport may have acted in self-defense, but the investigation is still under way.


“It appears that he was, but it is very, very early,” she said.


Montclair Road remains closed to traffic. Cocoa police and the Brevard County Sheriff’s Office crime scene unit are investigating.








Assuming this was a legal self-defense shoot, my best wishes for the defender, I hope he survives and has a speedy recovery.

[HeresyLives]

1. What kind of civilized society has a 'backyard gun battle'?

It's 2010 ya know, not 1810.

[PavePusher]

4. The kind where Citizens are able to employ efficient methods of defense...

against criminals. Assuming that's what happend here.

It feels right to me, considering the house had been broken into on Saturday. Sounds like someone wanted to try again.

Darwin's a bitch.

[HeresyLives]

8. Time to give up the 'wild west' show, and move on.

Most people just call the cops.

Think more along the lines of 'Star Trek' than 'Gunsmoke'...it being the 21st century and all.



"It's not the strongest of the species which survive, nor the most intelligent, but the ones most responsive to change"

Charles Darwin

[PavePusher]

11. When confronted in close proximity by four men (who were obviously armed)...

please explain where he had time to "call the cops"... and then wait for them to actually show up.

[HeresyLives]

That's because you have a 'gun culture' to begin with.

Other western advanced countries manage just fine without 'shoot-outs at the OK corral' all the time.

[PavePusher]

14. Oh, so the victim is at fault.

I see.

Oh wait, no, I don't...

[HeresyLives]

15. Don't play games. That would include being Matt Dillon.

[PavePusher]

17. You dance sublimely.

I ask again, what would you suggest the victim have done?

[HeresyLives]

20. I don't dance at all. Sorry.

Every other advanced western country manages without playing cowboy all the time. Why can't you?

[PavePusher]

23. Can you answer the direct question, please? n/t

[HeresyLives]

24. I have done so.

You have created a gun culture, and now that it's biting you in the ass, you expect me to save you from it.

NONE of you should have guns.

This situation would never have arisen if you'd given up the wild west as a fantasy when it disappeared in reality.

[PavePusher]

29. O.K., I had mistakenly assumed you were an adult.

My apology.

It's definitely past my bedtime, good day to you.

[HeresyLives]

32. I'm 63 and a registered gun owner for life.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HeresyLives]

41. LOL sorry, I'm definitely 63.

I've always owned firearms, and they are all registered.

I'm sorry that upsets you. :rofl:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. Where do you live that your guns have to be registered?

[cliffordu]

68. Crickets on your question.

predictable.

[Euromutt]

89. The province of Ontario, I believe

The lady said so somewhere.

[proteus_lives]

48. Interesting.

An authoritarian has a right but wants it stripped from others.

Oh wait, that's expected from authoritarians.

[rd_kent]

67. Oh, so its YOU that has created the "gun culture"?

So you argue against yourself? WTF?

[oneshooter]

60. WOW Talk about an elitist!!! You have them, but we should not? n/t

[spin]

62. I suppose we are all "those people" for which gun control is designed ...

to stop from owning firearms.

It's nice to know how you feel abut the majority of your fellow citizens.

[rd_kent]

66. Just goes to show how ignorant you really are.

Gun ownership is at an ALL TIME HIGH, nearly 300 million guns in the hands of LEGAL gun owners. And guess what? Gun CRIME is at its LOWEST since 1961!!!!

Those are FACTS! Have a look at the DOJ website for yourself. Stop making your assumptions based on emotion and irrational fears and start educating yourself with the FACTS.

[Euromutt]

56. "Other western advanced countries" have headlines like these:

"Gang with swords rob men in home" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7856879.stm
"Woman robbed at home by knifeman" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/wiltshire/7677741.stm
"Couple beaten in knifepoint raid" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/wear/7936117.stm
"Victim 'beaten to death for £40'" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tyne/7919882.stm
"Gang 'brutally' attacks man, 73" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/hampshire/7916634.stm
"Man bound and beaten in guns raid" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/north_yorkshire/7905177.stm

Those are just a few examples from the UK from last year. That last one is particularly interesting, because the firearms mentioned (two rifles and two shotguns) belonged to the victim. From the article:

Det Insp Keith Ruff, of Northallerton CID, said: "This was a heartless and frightening assault on a defenceless elderly man in his own home."

That's right, "defenseless." The man had four long guns in the house, but because of "safe storage" requirements and the de facto criminalization of using a degree of force in self-defense that might actually hurt somebody, the victim was indeed "defenseless."

And lest we think violent crime in the UK only involves blades at worst:
"<Five> Teenagers hurt in street shooting <in Tottenham>" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8252237.stm
"Man arrested after Swindon shooting" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/wiltshire/8464351.stm
"Teens injured in west Belfast laneway shooting" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8476481.stm
"Man shot dead in Asda car park in Glasgow" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8457418.stm

How about elsewhere in Europe?
"One killed <three wounded> in Dutch cafe shooting" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7994731.stm

Another incident that I can't even find an English-language story about was the murder of small-time marijuana grower/trafficker Hans van Geenen in September 2008. Van Geenen was traveling in a friend's car along a highway near Nijmegen when they were intercepted by another car; during the subsequent 10 kilometer-long chase, two gunmen with automatic weapons fired at least 1000 rounds at the target vehicle.

How about Japan, with some of the toughest gun control laws in the world?
"Three hurt in rare Japan shooting" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8345953.stm
"Deadly shooting at bar in western Japan" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8454625.stm

It's not that there isn't any gunfire in all those "western advanced countries"; it's just that the violence only tnds to go one way, from the criminal to the victim. I don't see what's more civilized about that state of affairs.

[Glassunion]

12. Star Trek?

An advanced society, a peaceful society, a society steeped in exploration and making contact with strange new worlds in order to further civilization.

One thing though.

They all had guns. They called them phasers or blasters or some shit. But they all had them. They even carried them when the left the ship. Open carry in the future. I like it.

[HeresyLives]

13. No, they had phasers.

Locked up, strict rules for using them, and they were set on 'stun', not kill.

They considered projectile weapons primitive stuff for cave men.

[PavePusher]

16. They were not always set on "stun"...

and were in that ficton, much more powerful than current projectile weapons.

Fail.

[HeresyLives]

19. No they weren't. Stop playing games.

Including the 'fail' game. Running around armed is out-dated and primitive. And should be unnecessary.

[TheWraith]

18. Yeah, because their guns could vaporize people and projectile weapons can't.

Come back to reality-based discussion now.

[HeresyLives]

21. Noop, those were Klingons. The bad guys.

Beings the Federation always outthought.

[PavePusher]

25. I can't friggin' believe I have to argue Trek lore in a gun forum.

Seriously, do you hear the words in your head? The strings on your fingers must chaff mightily.

[HeresyLives]

28. You don't. Just stop playing kids games finally.

This isn't your ten year old 'cowboys and injuns' stuff anymore. Real people get killed.

[TheWraith]

49. Go get some episodes from Netflix or something.

Phasers could kill and disintegrate as well as stun.

[Glassunion]

27. Ok Phasers...

Thanks...

If they were always set to stun, WTF did they have a kill setting for? It's kind of like having a button with the words "never press this button" on it. Why have the button at all.

[HeresyLives]

31. Because it was a TV show?

Something Roddenberry advertised as 'Wagon Train to the Stars?' As such it incorporated an American myth.

Kindly stop evading the point.

It's time to move on to the Space Age...not play some kids game with real weapons in your back yard.

[Glassunion]

34. Fine then.

You think we are in a mess. How do you propose that we as a nation fix it. I will never lay down my guns, until I get an honest, well thought out and acceptable solution to how I can be guaranteed self defense in today's day and age.

You tell me to move on to the "space age", just how do you propose to do that?

Here is where you will either ignore me, or attempt to evade the questions...

[HeresyLives]

36. Well see, THERE'S your problem.

'I will never lay down my guns'

Hey, other modern countries have cops...ones that come when they're called. I repeat, YOU PAY THEM. Why aren't they doing their job?

The average citizen doesn't need to go around armed. They have this thing called 'civilization'.

You should try it sometime.

[Glassunion]

42. I must have a crystal ball or something.

You are evading the questions. Please re-read the post and answer the questions.

Again, my magic 8 ball is telling me you will ignore the questions or continue to evade them.

[HeresyLives]

45. No, crystal balls.

You need a gun to back them up.

I've answered all your questions buddy, you just don't like the answers.

[Glassunion]

50. I should charge for psychic readings...

You did not answer my questions.

Here is my post again in fewer words.

How do you propose that we as a nation(all of America) fix it?
How can what you propose guarantee my safety?
How do I move into your Utopian "Space Age"?

Here was your response:
Well see, THERE'S your problem.
'I will never lay down my guns' (This is not an answer this is a statement of opinion)

Hey, other modern countries have cops...ones that come when they're called. I repeat, YOU PAY THEM. Why aren't they doing their job? (This is a question, not an answer, hence the question mark at the end.)

The average citizen doesn't need to go around armed. They have this thing called 'civilization'. (Again, a statement of opinion, not an answer to any of the questions. Not to mention quite vague.)

You should try it sometime. (again, a statement, but what exactly is "it")


Again, you are evading the questions. I don't expect you to answer. I have asked these questions of those who oppose private gun ownership many, many times in the past and have yet to receive an answer.

Shaking the 8 ball again.... "Very doubtful" came up.

I'll tell you what. I will head off to bed now, give you all night to come up with your answers. And when I check in the morning, I'm sure you will not disappoint me.

[rd_kent]

70. You have not answered jack or shit. What is YOUR solution? The COPS? That is not a solution.

We have cops NOW, and they CANNOT protects us. So answer the question, what is YOUR solution to personal self defense if we give up guns?

[Glassunion]

78. Would you like your palm read?

[rd_kent]

79. Of course! I give that Woo the same reaspect I give all the other Woo!

[TheWraith]

53. Even if there were a police officer on every block, it wouldn't be a guarantee.

I personally happen to know that you can never hire enough police to make everyone totally safe all the time. In many rural communities like mine we can barely afford to hire police at all. But even if we quadrupled them, it wouldn't be enough. Do you think we can have a police officer seconds away in the countryside where houses are a mile away from each other? How long do you think it takes police officers to respond to an emergency call in the inner city? If you think that this simply reflects laziness on the part of the police, then you clearly don't understand the logistical problems of law enforcement.

The reason we have an established right to self defense in this country is because people have to use it on a regular basis. Just like you're expected to be able to survive a disaster for three days without government assistance, you need to be prepared to defend yourself in an emergency. Yes, the police might come in time to help, and they might not.

Some of us prefer being able to take care of ourselves in an emergency. Without help from emergency services I'm not going to starve, I'm not going to freeze to death, and I'm not going to get killed by a prowler.

If you prefer not to protect yourself or your family for any reason, well, that's your choice. But it's a choice you're not entitled to make for others.

[rd_kent]

69. SO why do YOU have guns then?

[Euromutt]

58. So where can I buy one of these phasers?

You tell me where I can get a phaser with a "stun" setting that will reliably incapacitate a humanoid assailant, and I'll happily trade in my obsolete slugthrowers for a couple. You might also explain to me why every police agency in the OECD member states hasn't already adopted them.

I certainly hope you've already informed the RCMP that, if only they'd adopted phasers instead of tasers, they could have avoided that whole Robert Dziekański incident two years ago.

[slackmaster]

63. Have you forgotten how Captain Kirk defended himself against the Gorn captain?

[cliffordu]

22. "THE COPS" have already admitted you are on your

own for 15 minutes to an hour in a lot of citys.

You live in a very nice area if you think "The cops" are going to do anything except show up and string yellow tape. Maybe draw a chalk outline around your dead fucking body.


Yours is the attitude of the leisure class

[HeresyLives]

26. Then get better cops.

You pay their salaries, after all.

[Glassunion]

30. But wait..

Will the cops have guns?

[HeresyLives]

33. Again, with the games.

:eyes:

[Glassunion]

35. No it is an honest quesiton.

Do you think that the police should have guns? It is a simple question.

[HeresyLives]

37. Cops should be the ONLY ones with guns.

With strict regulations on when and how they are to be used.

[Glassunion]

46. I don't like the world you want.

I vote no.

I will not live in a nation where only the government has the guns. Just look at the last 100 years where firearms were stripped from the people, by their government.

I find it deplorable for it to be legal for the government to do something that it is illegal for the people to do. Sometimes we forget, the government is us.

The other problem is that our supreme court has ruled that the police are NOT obliged to protect us from harm. There are no legal repercussions for a police office to not save you if you call them for help. Here it is in a nutshell. I call 911, they can say no, and there is nothing that I can do about it.

[rd_kent]

73. But what about the guns YOU said YOU own?

[friendly_iconoclast]

83. Hypocrite- You just told us YOU own guns and are not a cop!

HeresyLives (1000+ posts) Tue Feb-02-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. LOL sorry, I'm definitely 63.
Edited on Tue Feb-02-10 12:20 AM by HeresyLives
I've always owned firearms, and they are all registered.

I'm sorry that upsets you

Let us know when you will be destroying your guns, mmkay?

[pipoman]

86. Not really a historian are ye

The world has so advanced in the last 100 years as to have placed the absolute nature of human rule for the entire rest of the history of mankind into the forever past..what could possibly go wrong with an unarmed populace? From a historical perspective..within real history (as opposed to the recent past of the last 100 years) say 2,000 years of human history..oh wait..there really is a problem with the last 100 years analogy....there was ww1 and 2 korea, vietnam,..(one thousand other abuses of government power)...Iraq, Afghanistan. government power grabs all..how short sighted and arrogant we have become. Again I ask, what could possibly go wrong with the policy of an unarmed populace?

[rd_kent]

72. YOU are the only ones playing games. Childish games, that you are not very good at.

[cliffordu]

38. Well...

:rofl:

You really get the prize for the most vacuous troll here.

I wish you could live in a couple of places I have. New cops indeed.

[HeresyLives]

40. Hey, it's your country. Smarten it up.

Don't blame others for your problems.

[rd_kent]

74. The only problem are people like YOU that want to take away rights.

YOU are the problem.

[X_Digger]

59. You do know 'the cops' have no duty to protect you as an individual, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeShaney_v._Winnebago_County

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales

[rd_kent]

71. Willfull ignorance. You are just playing games and are not to be taken seriously.

[rd_kent]

65. Call the cops? WHen the criminals are right there in front of you?

And you have no idea what the intentions are?


This is the REAL WORLD here, and REAL world problems require REAL solutions.



Anyone who thinks the police are there to protect us are fools.

[YOY]

2. You say self defense...I say drugs,

n,t,

[GreenStormCloud]

92. You are wrong. See the update below. N/T

[Glassunion]

3. Guns as a solution to guns... No points awarded...

Seething with :sarcasm:

[eqfan592]

6. LOL!

You got me, Glassunion! I was about to snap on shares just from the post title without first noticing the author! Nice :)

[PavePusher]

7. Hey! I resent that!

Oh, wait.... :evilgrin:

[Glassunion]

9. I do see the appeal of the drive by flame post.

It's great... You make assumptions, don't read the story, make some shit up and then post it.

It can all be done in under 10 seconds and you only need about 5 words.

[rd_kent]

75. Ignorance is bliss, huh? Now we see why he does it! Its like a drug to him.

[sharesunited]

47. Thank you, I was delayed.

[rrneck]

51. Did you bring new material

or are you just going to talk to yourself some more?

How was the roundhouse by the way? Got the curtains up yet?

[onehandle]

5. Yeah. Gun fights are usually tied to legal activities.

LOL!

[PavePusher]

10. Self-defense is a legal activity.

I'm not sorry if that offends some people.

[safeinOhio]

43. I assume that the home owner is at fault

for not securing his weapons in his house if they were stolen by these teens.

I'm all for self defense, however I would love it if people kept their legal guns more safe from crooks. This country needs to work on keeping handguns out of the hands of crooks. This would reduce gun violence. No freedoms are free. If the cost of ownership of handguns requires registration to slow the movement of handguns into the hands of crooks, that is a price worth paying. Another price should be the safe storage of fire arms in ones home when not there as well as securing the home to prevent break-ins.

I would like to see a reduction in legal self-defense shoots because criminals find it harder and harder to find guns available on the streets. Every legal gun owner needs to do their part. Police, prosecutors and judges need to do their part too. Violent crimes have been going down over the last few years. We will always have it, reduction in crime is all we can work for.

That is one thing I think both sides can work for. Reduce the availability of guns for criminals.

[HeresyLives]

44. The 'tough guys' have all gone to bed.

Worn out by their fantasies of fighting off the Dalton Gang in their own backyards no doubt. :rofl:

[rrneck]

52. They work for a living.

Unlike the pampered leisure class that can afford a police force that can jump through a rip in the fabric of time.

:rofl:

[eqfan592]

61. LOL! Awesome, rrneck!

Yeah, for somebody that reads a lot of "history" he/she sure seems to lack a very basic understanding of it when it comes to this particular issue. Not to mention a basic understanding of physics and time (hence the lack of ability of any police force to protect every citizen at every moment of the day).

[rd_kent]

77. "her" profile says "citizen of the world"! Must live on a cruise ship or something

[Euromutt]

94. Most people I've encountered who described themselves as "citizens of the world"...

... had one thing in common, namely, they tried to couch their personal objection to some aspect of American society or government policy in an argumentum ad numerum by pretending their personal view represents that of the entire world minus the U.S.

You get stuff like Romanians complaining that FDR "sold them out" at Yalta, conveniently overlooking the fact that Romania had been siding with the Germans for the previous four years, and that nothing Stalin did to them was anywhere near as bad as what their homegrown despots did.

You get French people complaining about how American foreign policy doesn't take French interests into account, never mind that when it comes to foreign policy, the French have a rather lengthy record of lending support to the world's nastiest despots, provided said despots have something the French want.

And you get Canadians who go on about how wonderfully egalitarian and responsive the Canadian health care system is, so much better than the American one, and then later discuss how fortunate they were to be able to pull strings (via a sister who's a senior nurse, or a hospital administrator whom they know from dinner parties) to bypass the two week (or more) waiting list for a particular procedure, oblivious to the fact that a) the fact that there's a long waiting list is an indication that the system can't keep up with demand, and that b) when the system tolerates cronyism, both the system and the beneficiaries of the preferential treatment are hardly displaying egalitarianism.

Speaking as a naturalized U.S. citizen who retains citizenship of his country of origin (the Netherlands), I feel sufficiently secure to respond to such complaints with a heartfelt "get over yourself."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

55. Just tired of arguing with 8 year olds.

[SteveM]

64. "Wild west metaphors": He who first smelt it, dealt it -- Motzart nt

[rd_kent]

76. Reading your posts, YOU are the only one living in a fantasy.

[MisterBill45]

80. Heresy: Please answer the questions or stop trolling.

You've been asked, repeatedly on several threads to answer some questions and you consistently refuse to answer them. Instead you make ad homs about the people who disagree with you, including some rather offensively sexist remarks.

1. There are 300 million guns (that we know of) in circulation in the US. How specifically do you propose to remove these from circulation? (Remember, we have a constitution that prevents gestapo midnight raids based on mere suspicion and a requirement to remunerate any taking by the government. 300,000,000 guns at an average of several hundred dollars each, you're talking a lot of money, but I digress)

2. Assuming you could magically disappear all firearms, the US has borders that we can't patrol adequately as it is. We can't stop drugs, illegal immigration etc. How do you think we'll stop illegal gun imports?

3. Do you think criminals will all turn in their guns when they are banned? Do you think they won't get illegally imported guns? Hint: they do in Canada and the UK...

4. If cops/government have guns and citizens don't, what's to stop those with the guns from instituting tyranny other than prayer and/or good luck?

5. Do you REALLY want Dick Cheney and the Republican political machine to be the only ones with arms?

6. In the original post it described what looked to be a self-defense shooting. for the umpteenth time, what SPECIFICALLY should the victim have done when confronted with several armed assailants? Pray? what? If the cops had ESP and a 30-second response time, the victim is still dead. What's your alternative solution?

7. You say you're 63. Sadly it's too young to remember what is was like during the McCarthy era in this country. My father certainly had vivid memories of the FBI knocking on his door and dragging him out in the middle of the night because he belonged to that well-known subversive organization known as the Unitarian Church! You want the FBI to be the only ones with guns?

I realize I've thrown out a lot of questions and made a few statements and rhetorical questions along the way. But these are all very rel issues in a REAL WORLD. Telling us we have a gun culture and that in essence "that's baaaad, mmmkay," is not a useful reply or solution, or proposal or anything else. It's trolling.

Over 1000 posts, if you do this all the time how are you even still here?

[Glassunion]

81. Well said

[friendly_iconoclast]

85. You are seeing an example of Paisley Syndrome

Named after Ian Paisley, whose very public and over-the-top bigotry against Catholics was so obnoxious he was never
targeted by the Irish Republican Army because he was the best recruiting tool they had.

Some people just don't understand the meaning of 'counterproductive'!

[PavePusher]

82. My duty day begins a 0530...

..and I have to be out of bed at 0300 to run a few miles with the dog, get prepped and make the drive.

Yesterday I pulled a 14.5 hour shift, so I lost a bit of sleep indulging your whimsical sophistry.

And you have not done me the courtesy of answering my questions.

Will you do so?

[PavePusher]

87. Hello? McFly?

I guess she took her ball and went home.

It must be comfortable under that bridge....

[northofdenali]

57. Shit. Cocoa. My mom lives on Merritt Island.

Cocoa and West Cocoa were always "hotbeds"; I grew up there from 1958 to 1968, and Cocoa usually held the headlines for gun violence. It was the "colored" section of central Brevard County and not only did the cops/EMT's not respond quickly, mostly they didn't respond at all. From what mom tells me, it's become a gang-violence center of activity, even in areas where I used to keep my horse.

Sad.

I hope it was a self-defence shoot, because if not, it may signal another rise in gang-related shootings in the area. Mom is 96 and doesn't need that shit.

[friendly_iconoclast]

84. The (mostly white) denizens of Palm Bay are doing their bit....

to keep crime in Brevard multicultural.

[Endangered Specie]

88. Cocoa?? Would be ironic if he used a Kel-tec firearm!

[Euromutt]

90. One article said he used a shotgun

I don't think Kel-Tec makes shotguns (though I'm coveting on of those SU-16s), but maybe he was shot with one.

[GreenStormCloud]

91. UPDATE: The homeowner also accidently shot himself.

SUMMARY:

Four burglars, wearing ski masks, climbed over the fence into his backyard. He had been burglarized the day before. He armed himself with a shotgun, confronted them, the fight started. He shot all four burglars, then himself by accident. No charges are going to be filed against the homeowner.

There does not appear to be a drug connection. The burglars had already stolen the keys to his truck and appeared to be returning for the truck. The four burglars all were teens and are being charged with armed burglary and grand theft.

Good thing he had a shotgun, but he needs to be a bit safer with it.

http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20100202/NEWS01/2020316/1006/Police++Homeowner+justified+in+shooting+4+teens

[Euromutt]

93. He shot himself? With a shotgun?

I hesitate to think how. I can only imagine he suffered a negligent discharge with the barrel pointed downward and hit himself in the foot and/or lower leg. Which might get pretty ugly if you're using a 12-gauge...