Let the confiscation begin...in New Jersey

[Superfly]

A beginner's guide to confiscating firearms...

1) Pass stringent and draconian gun laws, requiring citizens to seek permission, which is rarely given, from law enforcement before purchasing a firearm (which is probably already on the NJ banned list)
2) Require all citizens to register their weapons...to be used in step 5.
3) Revoke a citizen's right to carry concealed, but maintain "may issue" CCW laws (a citizen may appeal to carry concealed, but unless you are a movie star or very rich, that right is denied)
4) Establish a gun amnesty program and invite citizens to surrender their weapons voluntarily.
5) Establish a gun confiscation program to track down all people who have registered their firearms, but who have not surrendered them...

Looks like New Jersey is leading the charge on disarming its citizens.
------------------------------

Link

<snip>

"Owners of firearms and other weapons are invited to surrender them Saturday at the Old Bridge Police Department, Route 516." Step #4

<snip>

"but failed to register assault rifles" Step #2

<snip>

"rid themselves of those illegal weapons safely, without legal detriment" Step #5

[Township75]

1. Are you criticizing the NJ plan to get rid of gun violence...

it really has worked wonders in that state....for dramatically increasing gun violence.

[Superfly]

2. No, New Jersey is a model

for empowering their citizens and is a beacon in the progressive movement. <cough><cough>

</extreme sarcasm>

[GalleryGod]

3. You Bet Ya'! Try and Run STATEwide in N.J. as PRoGun?

Let me name the names of the GOPers who have been buried by paying fealty to the NJNRA.:nopity: Sorry...the list is too long.

Here's A Quick N.J. Political Education:

:kick: The Holy Trinity
Pro Environment
Pro Choice
Anti- Gun

BTW: Christine Todd Whitam subscribed to ALL 3.

Your Man in the Faculty Lounge,
Grading them papers:boring:
G.G.

[MrBenchley]

5. More tiresome NJ bashing from the fetishists...

In New Jersey the NRA can't even MAKE an endorsement publicly, and the last two GOP state-wide office seekers had to run around denying anything they'd ever said about guns (and it didn't help, since they'd promised their asswipe followers assault rifles and concealed weapons).

[Superfly]

6. No, that would be tireLESS bashing.

New Jersey is, for all intents and purposes, so out of step with mainstream USA. Some questions for you:

1) Why are affluent people leaving New Jersey?
2) Despite all these gun regulations, how high is the crime in urban New Jersey?
3) Why are businesses leaving NJ in favor of other states such as DE?

Because the government of New Jersey is so screwed up, they feel the only way they can get out of this mess is to put the screws to its citizenry even more in the form of extreme property taxes (Q 1), extremely unfair gun laws (Q 2), and extreme business taxes and regulation (Q 3)

[MrBenchley]

7. No I was right the first time....

And it is a badge of honor to be out of step with the red states...who are hardly "mainstream USA."

[Superfly]

9. No, you were wrong, as usual

The contribution NJ makes to the rest of the United States is only an academic study of what a state should NOT turn out to be. It is a disgrace to the union, and I am glad my visits of that state merely constitute the occasional weekend to see the folks or to quickly transit the state to nicer places, like Hell's Kitchen.

[MrBenchley]

11. No,, I was right as usual...

"It is a disgrace to the union, and I am glad my visits of that state merely constitute the occasional weekend"
Hell, we in NJ are turning handsprings....

Now hurry and edit your post so you can deny you said that later...

[juancarlos]

12. Would those be asswipe lunatic followers? eom

[MrBenchley]

14. Right the first time, juan....

You really know your fellow "enthusiasts" well....

[Township75]

24. You're not even in line with the Blue States...

just look at the 2k Blue state map

Oregon, CT, WA, NM, Indiana, VT, Maine, FL (yeah, I know), MN were blue and are now (and many were then) Right To Carry.

Add to this Wisconsin which will likely become the next RTC state next time its legs meet and BAM Baby, NJ is out of step.

[madddog]

29. Yo Bench...

why don't you roll on down here to No. Va...I'll drop you off down in S.E DC tonight, and you can see for yourself what a paradise the most restrictive gun laws in the country have made of DC. Just let me know your next of kin first :D

[MrBenchley]

44. Yo maddog

Tell us first how many criminals buy their guns in Virginia...and what a scream and howl the gun nuts in that backward state put up when they were limited to one gun purchase a month....

[madddog]

56. not nearly as many as

get "stolen" from the DC police department. And even WITH the 1 gun a month law, (which is breaking me, I really can't afford a new pistol every month, but it IS the law), DC us still the murder capital of the US.

Why do you think African Americans in the District don't have the same right to self defense that I have here in Va? I support that right for DC, and it's over 90% African American. The NRA supports that right for them...not a consistent view for a "racist" organization, btw...but you don't. Rather an interesting situation, eh?

Oh, yeah, I forgot, you want to disarm ALL Americans, not just African Americans. I guess that makes it better.

[Superfly]

57. You know...I should probably tell my friend, Russ

that the NRA is racist. He's black and a life member. This is something he should be aware of.

[madddog]

59. shhhh...you don't want to disturb his fantasy...

about the NRA being the KKK do ya?

[MrBenchley]

69. Next show him

all those pages you found "on google" proving McGreevey is in the Mafia...

Oh that's right.,..you don't have ANY.

[Superfly]

71. How's the view, bench?

[MrBenchley]

72. Just fine, fly.....

Of course, I'm not lying about what's on google, so I can show MY face.

Judging from your self-portrait there, you no longer feel you can.

[Superfly]

73. Ninja Master is back!

We missed you, master Bench!

[slackmaster]

78. Your face is green and shaped like New Jersey?

Ponder that.

[alwynsw]

4. What happened to some of the '70's attitudes?

Does anyone else remember Mayor Diane Feinstein's voluntary gun trun in day of the mid-70's? As I recall, the plans were to melt down all firearms collected to make a statue of some sort. I'm still looking for the statue. As I recall, the project netted several plastic water pistols and one non-functioning handgun.

The geniuses in other areas tried similar programs in the 80's with "buyback" programs. I made a few bucks "selling back" cheapie handguns for $50.00 that I bought specifically for the purpose for around $30.00 -$20.00 net profit per cheapie.

What can I say? I was just out of the military, in school and broke. The couple of hundred I cleared in profit went to textbooks and such.

on edit: there is no "g" in profit

[DoNotRefill]

8. If I were willing to set foot in N.J...

I could make a fortune.

You can buy a N.J. "assault weapon" for $130 in other states. They'll pay you $500 for it. Do the math.

[MrBenchley]

10. Gee, just what New Jersey needs...

more illegal gun merchants...

So much for law-abiding gun owners, eh?

[Superfly]

13. NJ's gun laws

allow this to happen.

I bought a pistol for my father-in-law last year as a gift. I live in VA where I can walk in, perform a NICS check, and walk out with my purchase. He was very pleased, as the turn-around for a permit to purchase a pistol in NJ is in excess of 3 months. That is a de facto infringement on the RKBA.

[MrBenchley]

15. Too TOO funny

Somebody is "allowed" to break a law because something is illegal?

Jeeze, no wonder Mary Rosh seems like a scientist to you guys.

" bought a pistol for my father-in-law last year as a gift. I live in VA where I can walk in, perform a NICS check, and walk out with my purchase. He was very pleased, as the turn-around for a permit to purchase a pistol in NJ is in excess of 3 months. That is a de facto infringement on the RKBA."
Gee, if that were even remotely true, he could take it to court, as could any other gun nut in the state (and there's a tiny pack of loonies here too)...but in fact, it's utter horseshit.

[Superfly]

16. The only horseshit around here

is the suite of draconian laws your state government has managed to impose on its own people. Say, how much did you pay in property tax last year to line your mafioso governor's pockets?

[MrBenchley]

17. Not even close to true

Your claim that the gun laws are unconstitutional was clearly that....

"your mafioso governor's "
A slur of a respected progressive Democrat from a member of the RKBA crowd...really, who is surprised?

[Superfly]

18. Just because he's a Dem

doesn't automatically make him beyond reproach. Let me spell it out for you: McGreevey is CROOKED. You are paying for his mistakes as is every other NJ citizen. He needs to be replaced...with a more capable, honest DEMOCRATIC governor who serves FOR the people.

[MrBenchley]

19. Really, who is surprised that the RKBA crowd

is bashing yet another progressive Democrat with phony slurs?

"Let me spell it out for you: McGreevey is CROOKED."
Yeah? Does he edit his online posts so he can deny he ever said what he said.

If you want to make that charge, fly, back it up. Let's see the evidence.

But you and I BOTH know you ain't got anything but "Waaaaaah! He won't let us have guns guns guns guns!" Any more than you had anything the other four or five times you've made this lame slur.

[Superfly]

20. How much did you pay to keep that crook in office?

Let's see...my mother in-law lives in Cape May county. She has a house valued at...approx $400,000 (built in 1920, 2 blocks back from beach)

Her tax bill for the year is OVER $10,000!!! Her pension brings in $30,000 (30 years as a social worker for the school system).

Yeah, that's one hell of a progressive state. How anybody can live there is beyond me.

[juancarlos]

21. Why would anybody want to live...

in the Democratic Peoples Republic of New Jersistan.

[Superfly]

22. Don't know...

Both of my in-laws are moving in the next year or 2. The cost of living there has just gotten out of hand in the past few years.

There are beautiful places in New Jersey, but that beauty is fiercely overshadowed by the tyrannical government in place there. It really is a shame, but there is a bona fide exodus from NJ to points better, like DE, VA, NC, SC and so on. Places where you know the governor is not serving 2 interests (himself and the crime lords), but where their elected officials serve on the peoples' behalf.

Brian

[MrBenchley]

23. In other words

You haven't got any evidence, and your claim the governor was crooked is as much horseshit as your claim about the gun laws was. And your claim about the gun laws being unconstitutional was horseshit.

"Yeah, that's one hell of a progressive state. "
Yeah, it is...Diversity is encouraged, affirmative action is practiced, no ugly "right to work" laws, public schools are supported, women's reproductive rights are defended...It's not perfect, but it's much better some of those crapass states in Dixie dominated by right wing blowhards.


"How anybody can live there is beyond me."
Then you'd be a fool to move here, wouldn't you? Sounds like you'd be much happier in Virginia with Jerry Falwell and Preacher Pat. I know we don't need somebody who defends illegal gun sales and makes slanderous allegations about elected Democratic officials with no evidence but their own curdled venom. And anybody in NJ who wants to sample dishonest and feeble-minded crap from right wing cesspools like Opinion Journal and Newsmax can dive in for themselves, although I doubt many would want to.

[juancarlos]

25. crapass?

Originally posted by our New Jersey friend:

"...some of those crapass states in Dixie..."

crapass? crapass? you're getting funnier by the day. However your gem "asswipe lunatic techniques" is still the best. Keep up the good work, although you owe me a drycleaning, I spit out my coffee on that one. Thanks for keeping me amused. I'm starting a "benchisms" file on my computer...I'll forward it to you at some point.

[madddog]

28. hehehe....

I'm waiting for him to use "running dog imperialist jackals" in a post lol...then the REAL MrBenchley will be exposed :D

[Emoto]

54. I like...

"curdled venom". I may disagree with him, but I do enjoy colorful language choices, particularly if coupled with actual argument.

[DoNotRefill]

27. Or Mark Warner...

a SENSIBLE Democrat.

[Romulus]

36. such diversity

with the NJ State Police running amok throughout the state, and those "Dot-Busters" losers being applauded by all the Soprano-wannabees, and the racist Union shops that are defacto "whites only."

Such a paradise. :eyes:

[MrBenchley]

45. Gee, rom...

A lot more diversity than in shitholes like a gun show....

[Emoto]

52. how many gun shows

have you been to? What makes you think there is a lack of diversity?

[madddog]

58. havent' you caught on yet?

I'm sure the ever pedantic one has never fired a gun...let alone been to a dreaded "gun show". Otherwise, he'd know that there are men, women, children, of all shapes sizes and colors there, in pretty much the same percentages you'd find them anywhere else in society, regularly in attendance. As a matter of fact, one of the organizers of the shows around here is black, if I'm not mistaken.

[MrBenchley]

62. Too too funny...

"he'd know that there are men, women, children, of all shapes sizes and colors there"
And Wayne LaPierre is the Queen of the May.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madddog]

66. so, have you EVER been to one?

date and time please...I'd be more than happy to take you to any of the Old Dominion Gun shows down here, so you could actually see for yourself. Of course, that *might* mean you'd have to adjust your stereotypes...and after the show, I can drive you to SE hehehe.

[madddog]

67. he IS!!

haven't you heard?

[Emoto]

80. dunno about the may thing...

...but having been to plenty of gun shows over the past year, I can tell you that the attendees look like a cross section of the surrounding communities. I can't figure out if you have taken this racist tack for sport or if you really believe it.

[madddog]

83. ah...still ignoring this one?

[MrBenchley]

61. Gee, moto

Who are you trying to kid?

[Emoto]

nobody, Bench

You have read enough of my posts to know when I am waxing poetic about a principle or belief, but this is not that. I am trying to give you honest intel on what I have seen at gun shows.

[Emoto]

82. nobody, Bench

You have read enough of my posts to know when I am waxing poetic about a principle or belief, but this is not that. I am trying to give you honest intel on what I have seen at gun shows.

[Fescue4u]

86. What are you talking about

I see LOTS of diversity at gun shows

Black folks (including me), White folks, American Indians, old, young, cops, business men, country folks.

I doubt you've ever been to one.

[1a2b3c]

97. Since when was evidence needed to make a claim?

Hell im supposed to be pimping for Larry Pratt, i havent seen any evidence of it yet.

[MrBenchley]

103. Certainly not with the RKBA crowd...

just look at the claims in this thread by the RKBA crowd...all of which turned out to be utter horseshit, AS USUAL.

[madddog]

40. that's outrageous!

my tax bill on a house worth more than that is only about $3600 a year, and that's in north Arlington!

[alwynsw]

90. Ouch!

I got over 3,000 sq. ft. on 11 acres, valued at about 150K here in Ky. last year's property tax bill was about $800.00. Let's see, that extrapolates out to about $2,000.00 for a $400,000.00 valuation...

BTW, $400,000.00 buys a bunch down here. And we don't have any gun laws to speak of in addition to the Federal Statutes. Oh yeah, except we got concealed carry. And you can carry anything legal out in the open, such as a Colt .45 in your hip holster or a shotgun in the crook of your arm.

on edit: there's no "s" in gun

[1a2b3c]

96. you just touched base with the other problem with so called

'progressive' states. Taxes. Why in the hell do you need to pay such high taxes? Can the government not come up with some sort of budget? I bet the top politicians and their buddy's stay at the top $ suits and order top $ room service and top $ wine all on the tax payers buck, while voting to give themselves, or Bush, a $200,000 raise. (damn Clinton for that one) Yep, i wouldnt trust them people either. Looks like they need to learn what progressive means, they might get voted out if people vote to make a "change".

[LARED]

100. respected progressive Democrat

Well, he may be a respected progressive but I'm not sure that counts for too much, as not too many folks like him or think he's doing a good job.

The recent nice wins for Democrats in NJ were not due to the governor. Luckily the Repub's ineptness was remarkable even for them.

[MrBenchley]

102. Yeah...

Guess nobody wants a bunch of looney-tunes putting assault rifles back on the streets here in this state.

[LARED]

99. Regarding my corrupt Governor

McGreevey is no doubt corrupt. Although he likely no worse that the other side.

I worked with a fellow that at one time actively worked in the Woodbridge Democratic organization back when MCGreevey was the Mayor.

Well after about a year the high level of corruptness got to him, and he had to step down from his role in the party. So unless McGreevey has changed his stripes he's still a crook.

[madddog]

30. actually

giving a firearm as a gift is quite legal, whereas a "straw purchase" is not. Believe it or not, there are places in the U.S. where a firearm is considered a very nice gift...like in my neigbhorhood lol. Feel free to buy me anything that goes bang :D

I'm too poor to get the GF a pistol for xmas this year...the one she has at home is a *little* too big for concealed carry...a 6 1/2 barreled Dan Wesson .357 magnum. A Kahr .40 would be much better suited for that, but it will have to wait. In the meantime, I pity the poor fool who breaks into her condo...he/she WILL leave in a bag.

And to think she was at the Two Hundred Thousand Mom March hehehe...I've done GREAT work!

[MrBenchley]

32. And ACTUALLY

you will notice that nobody has confiscated the gun given as a gift, depsite all the pissing and moaning...

[Superfly]

37. Not yet...we're still only on step #4

of the beginner's guide to gun confiscation.

[MrBenchley]

46. no, we're still on Chapter One

of Wayne LaPierre's "Big Book of Fetish Fantasy. "

It's a favorite with the RKBA crowd here.

[madddog]

41. dude...

that was in response to your allegation that Superfly was breaking the NJ laws by giving a pistol as a gift...stay on task, mo bouchaill.

[MrBenchley]

43. Jeepers, maddog

what a dishonest allegation...

show us where I alleged fly was breaking a law with his gift? You'll find what I was referring to was refill chortling about peddling assault rifles.

You want to stay on task and actually follow the thread...

[madddog]

53. I know

exactly who YOU were referring to...which is why I mentioned criminals. I know those of you in the GAYAIWCBTATWWBAGBHPC* crowd don't consider criminals responsible for their actions, choosing to fixate on their tools instead. (hey, did that come out right?).

* I have given your crowd it's own acronym; nowhere near as catchy as "the RKBA crowd", but it does the job:
Guns Are Yucky And If We Could Ban Them All The World Would Be A Great Big Happy Place Crowd.

[MrBenchley]

60. In other words

your post was just gun nut hooey that had nothing to do with what was being discussed?

"I know those of you in the GAYAIWCBTATWWBAGBHPC* crowd don't consider criminals responsible"
Guess you knowe that the way you knew what the other post referred to.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Emoto]

55. um...

I do not believe that one can give a gun as a gift to the resident of another state legally unless the transfer of ownership goes through an FFL in the receiving person's state. The last thing you want to do is break a federal gun law.

To you anti-gunners reading this, this the a perfect example of how complicated the law has become, when people who don't seek to break the law might do so inadvertently.

[alwynsw]

91. Do you mean the march

that was originally planned to suppport enforcement of the (then) current guns laws until it was co-opted by Rosie and CO. and turned into an anti-gun rally?

[LARED]

98. Turn-around for a handgun permit in NJ is

about three months give or take a little. I know, I live here, and have gone through the process a few times. It also can be pretty arbitrary because permits are handled through the local police chief and depending on his personal views the permit can be declined or held up for fairly arbitrary reasons, forcing you to take legal action if you want to stay within the law.

The criteria to get a permit is quite stringent as well. I know a friend that was declined a permit because of a single minor infraction of the law when he was eighteen (he stole a car battery). Well he was turned down for a permit when he was forty because of this.

Also any getting any type of carry permit is virtually impossible.

[DoNotRefill]

26. If they're offering an amnesty....

it's not illegal.

[MrBenchley]

33. Who are you trying to kid...

The amnesty refers to people with assault rifles turning them in without penalty...not to criminals from out of state peddling them, as you proposed....

[DoNotRefill]

92. Sorry, MrBenchley....

the article states that they're accepting them on a "no questions asked" basis.

That means it's legal. Additionally, if they tried to prosecute somebody for bringing them in from out of state, it would constitute, at the very minimum, entrapment.

[iverglas]

31. huh

"You can buy a N.J. 'assault weapon' for $130 in other states.
They'll pay you $500 for it. Do the math."


Sounds like the same sort of math that makes any kind of firearms control within a single jurisdiction, where there are no border controls, kinda doomed to be ineffective.

You can buy a N.J. "assault weapon" for $240 in other states. Then you can take it into N.J. and shoot somebody with it, or sell it to somebody who shoots somebody with it ...

Seems kinda obvious to me that a much larger share of responsibility for any failure of firearms control laws to do what they are intended to do can be laid at the doorstep of the states that don't impose those controls than of the states that do.

Just think ... if the US controlled access to firearms in any decent way, how many fewer crimes and homicides would be committed in Canada. People likely to hold up banks and shoot rival drug dealers just aren't likely to be doing it with long arms (or to get a permit to acquire long arms legally in Canada in the first place). Nope, for that they prefer handguns ... and to get 'em, all they have to do is drive over the border. At least there is a border; poor N.J. is just completely porous.

We up here really oughta start making those auto parts truckdrivers coming from the US wait a couple of hours while we search them all for guns, I say. Maybe that'd persuade the parts manufacturers in the US to start lobbying their gummint for reasonable firearms control, just like ours are lobbying against decriminalization of cannabis ...

And maybe N.J. should just start doing the same thing. Unfortunately, of course, it can't. But surely the people who carry on about how ineffective firearms control measures are at keeping guns out of the hands of those law-breakers oughta be demanding that all states have laws like N.J.'s, no?

.

[MrBenchley]

34. Also seems like

"a much larger share of responsibility for any failure of firearms control laws to do what they are intended to do can be laid at the doorstep of" those chortling over plans to break the law.

[madddog]

39. like, murderers, robbers, rapists, bank robbers?

THOSE people who plan on breaking the law? Damn, for once I agree with you!

[juancarlos]

47. Tell that to the Mafia governor

of New Jersistan. Corrupt to the core. Parts of Jersistan are gorgeous, but the government sucks.

[MrBenchley]

48. Tell you what juan...

Let's see some evidence for that smear...we all know fly hasn't got a speck of any...

[Superfly]

49. Just google "McGreevey" and "Mafia"

there's plenty of stuff.

[MrBenchley]

50. Then let's see it...

All I see when I google the two words are slurs by dickless right wing pinheads...like Tucker Carlson.

[juancarlos]

51. I'm giving you a hard time...

take it for the joke it was.

[MrBenchley]

63. juan

I take most of your posts as jokes....

You and I both know what a pantload fly's claim was....

[Romulus]

35. whatever

Seems kinda obvious to me that a much larger share of responsibility for any failure of firearms control laws to do what they are intended to do can be laid at the doorstep of the states that don't impose those controls than of the states that do.


To me, that sounds like the logic the slave states used against the free states: "Because of your lax racial laws, all of our slaves are running away. The 'runaway slave problem' can be blamed on the free states. If they weren't free, slaves would have nowhere to run."

Never mind that fact that people shouldn't have been slaves in the first place. :eyes:

[madddog]

38. but the citizens in those states

don't want more restrictive laws...otherwise they duly elected representatives would pass them.

I think a THE most significant cog in the machine here is the court system, that doesn't mete out the appropriate justice to criminals, and criminals with guns in particular. The vast majority of murderers in the U.S. have had a long history of violent crime, with and without gun use. The cases you hear about all the time in the news tend to be the "lone gunman goes nuts" type of stories, but the vast number of perps AND victims are engaged in a plethora (in best El Whappo voice: Jefe...do you know what a "plethora" is?) of crimes, like drug dealing, extortion, etc. Being shot sorta goes with the turf, pardon the pun.

[iverglas]

74. you know what too many USAmericans are?

Naïve.

It's the defining national characteristic, when seen from the outside. A complete lack of sophistication.

Problem is, sometimes it's really naïve like a fox. Sometimes it's just hard to believe they don't really know how foolish what they say is, and aren't saying it for some other reason.


"I think a THE most significant cog in the machine here is the court system, that doesn't mete out the appropriate justice to criminals, and criminals with guns in particular."

Several thousand years of humanity trying to deal with wrong-doers in its midst -- you remember Cain and Abel? -- and you still "think" that wrong-doing can be prevented by the threat of punishment.

I must assume that you never smacked your sibling or stayed out past curfew, have never driven above the speed limit or jaywalked, never drank a beer while underage, have never had a toke ...

On the one hand, we hear a lot of squawking here about the evils of prohibition, and how it doesn't work, and on the other hand we keep getting told that all we have to do, to solve the problems of crime and violence, is increase the sentences.


"The vast majority of murderers in the U.S. have had a long history of violent crime, with and without gun use. ... <T>he vast number of perps AND victims are engaged in a plethora ... of crimes, like drug dealing, extortion, etc."

But damn, if sentences were just stiffer in the first place, they never would have committed their first crime, right? Uh, yeah.

But I see, you're not talking about general deterrence, you're talking about specific deterrence. If ya put 'em away for life the first time they steal a chocolate bar, then they're not going to murder anybody. Problem solved.

But oops, that leaves an awful lot of people in jail for life, methinks. You ever tried looking at things the other way around? Have any idea what proportion of people convicted of crimes are actually first offenders? Look it up some time. You might be surprised.

If sentencing actually prevented crime -- by way of general deterrence -- don't you think it would have happened by now? Look up the Bloody Code; the death penalty was available for just about anything above spitting in the street in England at that time -- and yet people still committed those crimes. People in jurisdictions where hands are cut off for stealing still steal.

People who genuinely care about protecting individuals and societies from crime don't (purport to) adopt the bizarrely simplistic view of human nature that lies behind this "hang 'em high" approach to deterring crime.

Anyone who has ever been involved in traffic planning knows that signage is the least effective way of managing traffic problems. Put up a "no parking" sign, people will park; install a concrete barrier, people won't park. If what you really want is to stop people from parking, for instance because parked cars create a safety hazard, rather than just collect parking ticket revenue, you don't put up a sign, you put up a barrier. The people who would have parked there with not a whit of concern for the others whose safety they were endangering will still be just as nasty and selfish as they ever were, but the others will be safe.

The solution doesn't allow for a lot of the blaming (and, you should forgive me, handwringing) and punishing that some people do seem to revel in so, but it achieves the intended purpose.

Ditto for laws that say "thou shalt not rob banks", let alone "thou shalt not use firearms when robbing banks". A lot of bank tellers would put more trust in bulletproof glass than in those laws, no matter how many life sentences people who robbed banks with firearms might make themselves liable for. And a lot of people would put more trust in laws that do something to prevent bank robbers from getting hold of firearms than in laws telling bank robbers not to use them once they've got them.

But not those naïve neighbours of mine. Nope, they really believe that if they just keep putting more people in jail, for more time, human nature will be magically transformed. Or so they say they believe.

.

[Superfly]

75. You know how the world looks at Canadians?

Where's Canada?

It's the defining national characteristic, when seen from the outside. A complete lack of identity.

[iverglas]

76. mistaking yerself for the world

The other defining national characteristic ...

.

[Superfly]

77. How's the view from your ivory tower?

Arrogance. The other Canadian quality...

[Stilgar]

79. Hey you forgot we dont care what anyone else thinks either

and as long as you agree with the USA, we're your buddy.

[DoNotRefill]

94. Fly...

Iverglas has her redeeming qualities. She and I disagree on the gun issue (obviously) but she's convinced me that she adopts her positions based upon heartfelt convictions, and isn't really a knuckle-dragging mouth-breather. Rational, decent people can sometimes disagree with each other. And IMHO, Iverglas does qualify as a decent person, despite how harsh we can be to each other in the Dungeon.

[madddog]

81. you're making this way too complicated

we're talking appropriate sentences for violent offenses...there was a time in the recent past that studies showed the AVERAGE time served in the U.S. for murder was 7 years...now, I don't about you, but 7 years is in no way appropriate for murder to me.

I don't think that laws stop crime, I think punishing criminals appropriately for their crimes WILL stop them from comitting crimes while in prison (at least crimes against law abiding citizens)...is that particularly difficult for you to understand? It may not prevent the first crime, but it will prevent the second and/or subsequent ones.

I'm not talking about locking people up for 30 years for stealing a candy bar, but 30 years sounds about right for me for killing someone...a people barrier, if you will, to keep the murderers from the general population:

"Anyone who has ever been involved in traffic planning knows that signage is the least effective way of managing traffic problems. Put up a "no parking" sign, people will park; install a concrete barrier, people won't park. If what you really want is to stop people from parking, for instance because parked cars create a safety hazard, rather than just collect parking ticket revenue, you don't put up a sign, you put up a barrier. The people who would have parked there with not a whit of concern for the others whose safety they were endangering will still be just as nasty and selfish as they ever were, but the others will be safe."

Okay...I want to put up and maintain a barrier to keep violent criminals out of society...and I'm quite happy with that barbaric way of thinking, thank you.

Oh, and thanks for the world civilization lesson...I guess I'd forgotten about all of that.

[MrBenchley]

84. Helluva thread, isn't it?

The original premise turned out to be horseshit...

The claim that New Jersey's gun laws were unconstitutional turned out to be horseshit...

The claim that New Jersey's progressive Democratic mayor was corrupt turned out to be horseshit....

And in the end we're left with the RKBA crowd daydreaming about punishing criminals more harshly and sniveling that the folks who clog the aisles at gun shows aren't really the racist trash pretty much every decent person knows they are.

It's more fun than the clown car at the circus some days around here.

[Superfly]

88. I didn't know New Jersey had a mayor.

One of those city-states, eh?

[MrBenchley]

87. By the way...

you will also notice not one but TWO "enthusiasts" chortling over plans to break the law and sell assault rifles in a state that has sensibly outlawed them.....

And of course they're two of the loudest of those screaming that "law abiding gun owners" such as themselves are no threat to anyone...and that any discussion of gun control is a threat to them. Wonder why?

Funnier than the clown car at the circus....

[Superfly]

89. Not selling...

that's gifting. But the facts never seemed to concern you, eh?

[DoNotRefill]

101. Sorry, MrBenchley....

but abandoning firearms to a duly constituted government agency is not "selling", even if you're getting paid.

Also, are you accusing me of planning to break the law? Please quote me where I state that I'm planning to break the law. Your statements are reaching the point that they're legally actionable. Personally, I'd advise caution for you at this point.

[DoNotRefill]

95. Nope...

"Nope, they really believe that if they just keep putting more people in jail, for more time, human nature will be magically transformed."

The purpose of long sentences for violent crime would be one of incapacitation, not one of magical transformation. A criminal with a history of violent crime will be greatly curtailed opportunity-wise to commit crimes against the public at large while incarcerated.

As for laws that prevent bank robbers from getting ahold of guns, that's a forlorn hope. There's simply no way to do it while maintaining a free society. Even China, at the height of being a police state, was unable to prevent drug abuse, despite the death penalty being regularly applied to drug dealers. Where there's a demand, and money to be made, somebody , somewhere, will arrange to fill that demand. Drugs, guns, alcohol, the item doesn't matter. We're dealing with human nature.

[DoNotRefill]

93. but doesn't the same logic apply when crossing international borders?

Countries can control their borders if they want to. Canada DOES have SOME border controls, I'm sure. Yet that doesn't stop people from smuggling guns (or drugs or cigarettes or whatever) in from the US or overseas.

Why should we all go to New Jersey's laws? Shouldn't New Jersey come to our laws? Why should New Jersey be able to dictate to other states? Think about it. Suppose a State has very strict laws against gay marriage, just for example. Should the state with the strict anti-gay marriage laws be able to tell Vermont or other states that they can't legalize it? Where would that leave us? With the strictest laws anywhere in the country becoming the de facto law for the entire country. That would be just plain wrong.

[madddog]

42. damn...

I've been paying too much lol.

[Fescue4u]

85. money making opportunity

If I had some free time, Id buy a bunch of cheap ak's and run down to NJ and "sell'm" to the sheriff for $500 a pop.

I could then use the proceeds to buy a nice .50 caliber!!

Be a nice way for the residents of NJ to fund my collection!