Utter failure of "gun free zone" in my hometown....

[virginia mountainman]

As I type this some asshole in Wythville, with a pistol 5 pounds of C-4 plastic explosive, and a pick up truck with hand grenades in it, has 5 hostages in the Post Office... He has been shooting out of the windows of the post office, at the police.

Practically all of that, is a Federal crime in the post office... But, the damn useless law did not stop any of it.

But, me, with my Virginia, CCW permit, is prohibited from even stepping on the parking lot to mail a letter, with my sidearm.

As I was half way thru this post, a call came in, Now excuse me, as I leave, to go pick up my mother in law, and friend, they had the misfortune of parking too close to the Post Office, to do some last minute shopping, and now can't go near the car without fear of being shot, be someone in a "Gun Free" zone...

The Glock 36 is staying home for this trip to town...The full-sized Kimber 1911 is coming out of retirement.. Damn assholes...

http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=11723885

[katandmoon]

1. I can sense your gun just quivering from here

[rd_kent]

2. Another ignorant hit and run from katandmoon. you stay classy, now, ok?

[eqfan592]

4. Awww, what's wrong, katandmoon?

Is having the fact pointed out that laws and "gun free zones" don't protect people all by themselves getting the best of you, leaving you with only with a poor excuse for an insult?

[SteveM]

21. "Quivering guns"? How do you aim those? (nt)

[east texas lib]

31. Lots of vodka and a bungee strap? (nt)

:o

[taurus145]

27. No penis reference?

I'm shocked and disappointed.

[rd_kent]

3. They should rename "gun free zones" to "Legally carried gun free zone"......

[tburnsten]

5. Wait so how are the police going to stop him?

Are they going to have to take shots from across the street, or does the gun-free zone extend even beyond the Post Office property, like some arbitrary number of yards?





This is a miserable situation and I'm sorry to hear that some jackoff decided to do this. I really hope that no one is hurt, or if anyone does get hurt, that the only person hurt is the hostage taker.

[RaleighNCDUer]

6. If it wasn't a gun free zone, would it be ANY safer to approach that car?

The RW asshole gun fetishist has fucking GRENADES. I don't think the possibility of someone there packing CC would have been ANY deterrent to him.

[eqfan592]

7. Maybe not as a deterrent....

...but it does underscore the inherent uselessness of gun free zones. And you can't deny the possibility that somebody with a CCW permit may have been able to put a quick end to this standoff had they been on site. And "gun fetishist?" Seriously? :eyes:

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. Who but a gun fetishist would own grenades?

He supposedly has 5 lbs of C4 strapped to his body. If somebody drew on him it is just as likely that there would be no post office there anymore. Unless the CCW holder could take him out with the first shot, before he triggers the bomb, it's an invitation to suicide.

The 'use' of gun free zones is not in keeping guns out - it is in upping the penalties for using a gun in the gun free zone.

[eqfan592]

9. You may be right.

You could be totally wrong as well. Neither of us are actually there at this moment to know the situation clearly enough to say for certain one way or another.

As for who but a "gun fetishist" would own grenades, I think "explosive fetishist" would be a more appropriate term. But really, you need to get over yourself. Tossing around terms such as "gun fetishist" when speaking about people like this says much more about you than about anybody else. And just a hint, what it's saying about you isn't positive.

And instead of setting up "gun free zones" that leave everybody inside sitting ducks, how about just stiffening the penalties for using a firearm in a crime in general? Seems to make much more sense to me.

[safeinOhio]

10. Not really "gun free zones" as

any off duty cop can carry in any of those zones. Suspect might even be one. Look for metal detectors coming soon if he blows up the place and kills every one.

[eqfan592]

11. What's interesting to me...

...is that there aren't already metal detectors in all gun free zones anyway. Mind you, I'm not in favor of gun free zones in the first place, but if you're going to have one, shouldn't you take some basic steps to help ensure the safety of the people inside the establishment? You're greatly reducing their ability to effectively defend themselves after all. (please note that these "yous" are not directed at you personally, safeinOhio, but at any hypothetical person establishing a gun free zone :) ).

[spin]

13. Anytime a "gun free" zone is established ...

there should be an armed presence inside for protection and as a deterrent.

If there were, you would see fewer incidents where helpless people are targeted by mentally unstable individuals.

I remember the last time I had to appear as a witness in court. Obviously, I couldn't carry a weapon. In the courtroom there were three police officers who were armed and in uniform. Quite possibly, the judge was also carrying. I was in the safest place in the small town in Florida where I live.

(Two of the police officers were waiting to testify in cases on the docket, not in the case in which I was a witness. One was just hanging out and bullshitting with the other officers.)

[AtheistCrusader]

17. Metal detectors are useless without armed guards.

What happens when a school metal detector finds what it's looking for?

The vice-principal gets chased through the school and shot in the ass.

[spin]

12. The penalties for carrying a firearm in a "gun free" zone...

are strict enough.

Unfortunately, laws don't discourage dishonest or mentally unstable individuals.

To a man who "supposedly" has 5 lbs of C4 strapped to his body, the penalty for carrying a firearm in a "gun free" is irrelevant.

Allowing honest licensed citizens to carry firearms or providing an armed police presence inside the building would be a far better deterrent.

Gun free zones without armed protection are:

[safeinOhio]

14. I'm all for metal detectors and guards at the door

More jobs and God knows we need them. Most big Federal buildings have them, SS offices small and large have them. Local and state judges are serious about it as all court rooms have detectors and guards. Even party stores in big cities have bullet proof plastic to protect the clerk.

[spin]

15. I agree ...

a metal detector is a damn good deterrent, especially when an armed guard is present.

More metal detectors means more jobs. Sounds good to me.

[GreenStormCloud]

18. Those jobs would be drags on the economy, not a boost.

A job is a boost only if it produces, or aids in the production of a good or service. If you have to add some guards to a site then you have increased the cost but not increased production. The price of the product will have to rise to cover the cost of the guards. The guards are needed because the loss to crime is greater than the cost of the guards. But if the crime loss can be solved without guards, then that is a more efficient way to do business.

[safeinOhio]

19. Seems guards do aid in the production of a good or service

that service being mail which most all producers use. How you going to get your bills and pay them? It is if the cost of guards is worth the saving of innocent lives. Like cops and fire men. It may get to that point, making it efficient. You won't solve the risk by taking down the "no guns allowed" sign. You may reduce it a wee bit. Most illegal gun crimes take place in unrestricted gun zones. I guess they could install bullet proof glass like in Detroit party stores. You could conduct all of your business thru a slot. That also would bring jobs to manufactures and installers.

Any one hear any more news about it?

[GreenStormCloud]

20. They don't aid in the production, they guard against loss.

That is two different things. I will instantly admit that both are vital, but if you can produce the same goods without needing as many guards you can cut overhead. One way of doing that is to move the production facility, if it can be done, to a lower crime area. Of course, that takes vitally needed job out of a high crime area, furthering the poverty in the high crime area.

Crime produces poverty, in many different ways. Go to a high crime area and look around. You won't see any open shelve stores, due to the problem of shoplifting. No supermarkets, no department stores. The people who live in those areas have to either travel or go to local stores that have everything behind plastic and they have to ask for it. That is slow and expensive.

About 30 years ago, I was an armed plainclothes store dectective, catching shoplifters. Store was in New Orleans.

[safeinOhio]

23. Sorry I thought you said

"or aids in the production of a good or service" They provide a service. I think the post office we are talking about was in a small town, most likely low crime. Hard to move small town POs to lower crime area.
Are you sure "Crime produces poverty" or is it, poverty produces crime. I'm sure there is a correlation.

I don't think efficiency is all it is cracked up to be. It has too many unintended consequences. It is efficient to produce in low cost countries, like China, but you loose your middle class, end up with large scale unemployment and then no one can buy your product. I like the law in NJ that does not allow one to pump their own gas. Not as efficient and as cost saving to have to hire some one to pump gas. Yet it has benefits like higher employment. Gas is always cheaper in NJ than NY where you pump your own.

My guess is if the cost of a stamp included a penny to pay for more security, few would miss the penny and, if this type of thing goes on, most would feel safer and lives could be saved. True cost and benefits are not always obvious. We do have academics, like PHDs in economics and sociology to study these things, provided we are willing to support higher education.

[GreenStormCloud]

29. I want to keep the topic to guns, so I am going to drop the economics discussion.

No offense intended. I just don't like to drift too far from the forum topic.

[PavePusher]

24. The last thing we need is more government jobs.

Let people be their own security. That's what a free nation is all about. If someone doesn't want to take responsibility for themselves, it's not my job to pay more taxes to hire a babysitter for them.

[safeinOhio]

28. So, you'd fire all of the police and firemen(government jobs)?

A free nation is nothing if it is not civilized. Somalia is a "free country" where you have rights if you are armed better than the other. Your simple answer says volumes about your politics. My guess is you you are not a fan of FDR, a hero to most at DU. My guess is your are a fan of Hoover as you seem to share his and the far right, anti government type type philosophy.

[PavePusher]

30. Ummm, I did say 'more'.

We could use more actual police to investigate actual crimes and arrest actual criminals. But 'security guards' to stand around and look up peoples shirts? No thanks, "We, the people..." can provide our own security just fine with the tools we carry on our persons, thank you.

[SteveM]

22. "Upping the penalties?" This is the purpose? I'd rather the signs came down...

so that any potential thug/sociopath who can read & write won't be attracted to such. You might be interested to know that in Austin, Texas, a highly-regarded elementary school near me has the equivalent of a "gun-free zone" sign. Facing away from the street and toward the school. Maybe someone is getting the drift.

What kind of guns did this fetishist have with him?

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Oh that's what i forgot to pick up at the store during lunch.

I am completely out of C4.



(where the fuck does a guy in a wheelchair get hand grenades, and C-4? Was he a demolition worker, or a EOD guy that got hurt?)

[PavePusher]

25. I'm betting inert "grenades" and modeling clay. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

26. I'd say that's a good bet. He's in custody, so we'll know soon.