4 Officers ambushed and killed in a Cafe on the outskirts of Tacoma Washington.

[AtheistCrusader]

If you live in the area, please be on the lookout for the suspect described herein:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34194122/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/?GT1=43001

This piece of crap needs to be found, fast.

[MadMaddie]

1. I am live on the Eastside of Seattle and it's on the major stations

I am not close to the area where this happened.

This rotten bastard executed the police officers while they were sitting down working on their laptops. It doesn't sound like they had a chance to pull their weapons to defend themselves. This is an act of a coward....

It's now being reported that there were 3 male officers and 1 female officer...

[Warpy]

2. Meth, maybe?

There is a lot of money at stake in the drug business.

[AtheistCrusader]

3. I doubt he's going to be making or selling much meth as the most hunted man in the state

but that doesn't mean you aren't right on the money.

[havocmom]

4. Tis the season for increased domestic disturbance calls too

Sometimes a party to one of those gets a hate on for cops who may have pulled someone to a safe house.

A couple of times, perps came after my mom who did graveyard dispatch for a small town's police dept via an answering service. Her boss not only allowed her to have her big dog at work, he encouraged it, since she had the answering service to herself on graveyard so people with families could be home.

Abuse calls seem to trigger a lot of anger toward police too. Drugs are probably biggest reason cops are targets, but not the only reason for sure.

[MadMaddie]

6. Maybe

possibly mental illness or an ex military person.

Description: "Black Male, scruffy Beard, black jacket, blue jeans".

This guy ran from the scene, there are numberous witnesses.

[oneshooter]

9. Could yo please explain this

"possibly mental illness or an ex military person"

It sounds to me like you consider ex- military as being mentally ill. I take umbrage to your remark, it is insulting to all who have served this country.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[PavePusher]

12. Second that... n/t

[ribrepin]

14. I know nothing about guns

but whoever it was seems to be a very good shot. I think it would be hard to kill outright four police officers and not hit anyone else. Police spokesman said that they didn't even have a chance to transport the officers to the hospital. Could be ex-military or someone with weapons training. Not putting down the military.

May god be with the families.

[PavePusher]

16. No, no particular training required for this...

except perhaps some notional target practice.

Four people sitting at a table, loss of all situational awareness (computers and conversation will pretty much fully load one's concentration), and shooting at close range, very likely from the side (thus minimising any body armor protection, if worn). Head shots would not be difficult in this scenario and even if a vest stops a bullet, you will be incapacitated for a follow-up shot.

Please do not automatically assume "ex-military", as if that is a prerequisite for insanity. Yes, there are a lot of people with military training, no, that has little, if any, correlation with criminal behavior.

[Euromutt]

24. Not disagreeing with you, but...

Lakewood, WA is in close proximity to two large military bases, McChord AFB and Fort Lewis. AS a result, there are a lot of both current and former military personnel living in the area, which does make the likelihood of the murderer having recent military experience a little higher than in, say, the vicinity of Portland, OR, or even the Bellevue/Redmond/Kirkland/Bothell area (on the eastern side of Lake Washington). Though it's still by no means a given.

Moreover, to the best of my understanding, criminal gang activity in Lakewood and south-western Tacoma is primarily Asian (specifically Korean), and the shooter was black, which suggests that he wasn't some local gang-banger.

[PavePusher]

26. Sorry, I'm a little sensatised I guess.

I keep seeing this "ex-military=unstable" meme in increasing frequency, and it's getting on my nerves. And even if it is true, it remains to be seen that it has any correlation with the actions of the perp.

Idle speculation... ain't it grand?

[paulsby]

127. it's like a funhouse version of the rightwing

the rightwing (many thereof) instantly speculate - muslim terrorist, whereas the leftwing speculates - PTSD! PTSD! or rightwing militia type

[oneshooter]

131. It's damn insulting, that's what it is!!! N/T

[OttavaKarhu]

42. This sort of speculation is pointless

The person of interest has nothing to do with this, or any of the zillion other scenarios I'm reading flung about.

Please do not exploit our community tragedy. Please sit with us and contain the tension and wait to learn the facts, just as we are. While I realize there is a heady kind of comfort for some in making up stories during the awful tense time of not knowing, it is also the case that a lot of facts are already on the table. None of them has anything to do with the shooter being local, military, gang-related, or anything other than a psychopath multiply released repeat offender whom LE was already watching for escalatingly scary behavior.

[Euromutt]

108. You know, I really resent it when you talk about "our community" as if I'm not part of it

I actually live in south King County, and last time I looked, western Washington did not appoint you official spokesperson for the entire population of Pugetopolis, so why don't you fucking well shove the possessive attitude?

[ribrepin]

31. I don't assume all ex-military are unstable.

Quite frankly, some of the most together people that I know have served in the military. My Air Force Uncle retired to Lakewood near where this shooting occurred. There's a hospital and commissary in the area (Fort Lewis and McChord). Lots of military in the area.

The local news is reporting that one of the officers exchanged gunfire with the shooter. The killer shot four people with lethal wounds. The first responders weren't even able to rush one of the victims to the hospital. I don't think it's dumb luck.

[PavePusher]

34. My apologies for misunderstanding you.

Your post and #6 seemed to conflate 'ex-military' with both 'unstable' and 'trained to kill', neither of which are particularly causual. #6 probably was the one that annoyed me the most.

[ribrepin]

36. No problem...Local news is now reporting that the police are looking for a person interest

with a long criminal history and presumably no military experience. Mike Huckabee apparently pardoned him. I wonder if Arkansas give him a bus ticket to Washington state.

[SteveM]

117. Better known as "Greyhound Therapy." (nt)

[oneshooter]

30. Still awaiting your reply. Are you a drive by who can't defend your accusations? N/T

[PavePusher]

5. I will bet a sawbuck that the goblin...

was someone with multiple priors who shouldn't have been released to the streets.

My prayers for the families of the murdered officers.

Tacoma-area DU-ers, please be vigilant and be prepared to protect yourselves.

[MadMaddie]

7. You could be right

This makes me so angry! He ambushed them, he couldn't take them on face to face on equal ground.

This could also be like the guy in Seattle who wanted to be a cop but was not accepted.

We won't know until they catch him dead or alive, either way is fine with me.

[proteus_lives]

41. According to the threads in GD and LBN, that sawbuck may be yours.

Check'em out.

Thanks a fucking lot Huckabee.

[OttavaKarhu]

43. This appears to be the case

As evidenced by extensive information already available on the "person of interest" and his staggering record.

I cannot begin to express the sickness I feel over the fact that of all the people in that cafe, there has been not one mention by anyone that someone stood up for those four officers. I mean anything--a thrown chair, a "stop!"--ANYTHING by the apparently unarmed people there.

There may be other information as time goes on. But I'm guessing this is pretty much the case: a freed goblin, counting on this sort of prey behavior, planning an attack and having it go by his book. Knowing how most people are most likely to hide under things and hope the bad luck day stops with the other people being victim. Do it to Julia, not to me.

Pave, you note "be prepared to protect yourselves." Those officers weren't...and I don't mean that critically. My point is: sounds like all they had in their hearts and minds was how to protect and serve others.

[aikoaiko]

8. Might be more than one....

Four US police officers shot dead
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5jIqSO1Crew7Y7sfVSN3bYWjfcEaQ
(UKPA) – 5 minutes ago

Four police officers have been shot and killed in what authorities called a targeted ambush at a coffee house in Washington state, a sheriff's official said.

Officials at the scene told The News Tribune in Tacoma two gunmen burst into the Forza Coffee Co and shot the four uniformed officers as they were working on their laptop computers, then fled the scene.

Pierce County Sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer said investigators believe the officers were targeted, and it was not a robbery. Troyer told the newspaper "it was just a flat-out ambush".

He could not immediately say what agency the officers were from. Police were searching for two suspects and interviewing witnesses. The coffee shop is near McChord Air Force Base in Tacoma, south of Seattle.

[MadMaddie]

11. These guys if they don't turn themselves in they are going to

do a "suicide by cop"! They are cowards and they know they will get the death penalty in the state of WA.

[Sebastian Doyle]

13. Theoretically, they would get the death penalty

My suspicion is that this particular dirtbag won't make it to booking, let alone trial.

[Euromutt]

17. Possibly one shooter, one driver

At least, that's what the Seattle Times reports.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010382767_webfourdead29m.html

<Pierce County sheriff's spokesman Ed> Troyer said there may have been a driver who helped the suspect get away, and police had a description of the possible driver.

The gunman was described as a black man in his 20s or 30s, between 5-feet-7 inches and 5-feet-10-inches, and ran north on Steele Street South after the shooting. He was wearing a black coat over a gray hooded sweatshirt and blue jeans, Troyer said.

I have no words.

[Taverner]

10. That's. Fucked. Up.

Seriously - the killer was literally looking to go kill cops

[Cha]

15. Rec'd..I saw this fleetingly and was looking for it

in LBN.

This horrific and the statement from their spokesman, Ed Troyer, sums it up..

"This is an example of the danger that police officers and deputy sheriffs and state troopers face every day," Sheriff Paul Pastor said. "The person or people who did this not only harmed us, they harmed the good that we can do in the community."

[MichaelHarris]

18. were the

police officers armed?

[Euromutt]

19. They were about to start their shift

They were in uniform, armed, and wearing body armor. Unfortunately, they were also focused on their laptops instead of their surroundings.

[MichaelHarris]

20. That's weird

four people with training and carry permits couldn't stop one gunman. Refresh my memory, carry permits do what?

[PavePusher]

21. Please cite to where anyone claimed that carrying a firearm...

is a panacea against violence.

It's a option, and one that, as with any option, requires vigilance. See my post #16 above.

[bossy22]

22. different situation

this sounds like a hit....pre planned with selected targets...if that is the case there is very little anyone, with or without a gun, can do. a person with a CCW could stop a random shooter in his tracks, but probably couldnt do much against a shooter intent on just killing him...especially if that person planned it all out

[Euromutt]

23. Yeah, that's what I thought you were getting at

I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and not assume you were being a ghoul, but unfortunately, you did not fail to disappoint.

I also note you conveniently glossed over the point that all four officers were focused on pre-shift paperwork on their laptops when they were attacked, and not paying attention to their surroundings. I'm already reading comments on other forums from cops--who admittedly work in rougher areas than Lakewood, WA--that they don't cluster in public places, or engage in activities that will cause their situational awareness to lapse like doing paperwork or eating lunch. They do it at the station, or in their squad cars, parked in a place that doesn't allow someone to walk up on them unnoticed.

But to answer your question, a carry permit itself does nothing to keep you safe; it's a laminated piece of paper. Carrying a firearm gives you a means of defending yourself, but it doesn't work if you're paying sufficient attention to your surroundings.

The late Jeff Cooper developed the concept of Color Codes of states of awareness. The murdered officers appear to have been in "Condition White" (http://insightstraining.com/blog/index.php/2009/09/the-color-codes/) when at least one of them should have been in "Condition Yellow" (http://insightstraining.com/blog/index.php/2009/10/the-color-codes-condition-yellow/). That played a huge part in why the gunman was able to kill all four of them.

[eqfan592]

35. Calling MH a "ghoul" is being kind.

Much kinder than I'd like to be if the forum rules were to permit me to do so.

I'd love for him to point out exactly where anybody ever said carrying a firearm was an automatic guarantee that you would never be harmed by any criminal, ever.

Great post as usual, Euromutt.

[Euromutt]

39. I restrained myself, believe me

There were rather a lot of things I felt like calling him, but I bit them back. In the circumstances, I thought "ghoul" conveyed the point.

I'd also hope one the usual anti-RKBA posters (e.g. Villager) would call HM on omitting even a perfunctory display of sympathy for the murdered officers before parking his soapbox on the bloodstains, but I'm not holding my breath.

[aikoaiko]

25. No MichaelHarris, your strawman arguments are weird.

[SteveM]

119. I think his "social construction of reality" got in the way again (nt)

[Tejas]

29. I've seen

MichaelHarris (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-29-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. That's weird
four people with training and carry permits couldn't stop one gunman. Refresh my memory, carry permits do what?




pieces of shit who thought a lot of things were weird.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. Link to where they had carry permits?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. So you are saying they would be alive now if they had been unarmed? That's idiotic.

[Hoopla Phil]

37. You'll notice that the targeted people were openly carrying. Makes one

wonder the outcome of a person that was carrying concealed.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. Yes, EVERY bad situation unfolds JUST LIKE THIS ONE.

Har har har. You are a very funny man.

[proteus_lives]

40. Wow, stretching.

Utter Fail.

[OttavaKarhu]

45. This is no time to exploit our tragedy for your politics.

[Remmah2]

46. Armed Citizen

The outcome would certainly have been different if the ownwr/clerk/waitress behind the counter (a citizen) had access to a firearm (to prevent robberies.) It seems the ambush was carefully planned and the perp knew who was armed in that room. Also, the perp was a repeat offender out on bail (already covered by a dozen or so gun laws.)

[MichaelHarris]

49. so

a person walks up to the counter, gun in hand, your citizen with access to a firearm out draws the bad guy? See this is thing CCP people don't want to talk about and probably practice in front of a mirror, quick draw. most bad guys come weapon in hand, the CCP has his hidden. Four police officers with guns all dead. You should really think about that, if 4 cops couldn't get their gun out why do you think a normal citizen with a holstered gun could stop a guy robbing them at gun point?

Now I know you'll post all these "good shooting" stories but post the one where a guy was able to fire his/her concealed weapon at a bad guy with gun in hand robbing them. Wyatt Earp is dead, he ain't coming back.

[PavePusher]

50. Massive FacePalm...

"a person walks up to the counter, gun in hand, your citizen with access to a firearm out draws the bad guy?"

It happens, and has been posted in this forum (repeatedly). You can not refute this. Deal.



"You should really think about that, if 4 cops couldn't get their gun out why do you think a normal citizen with a holstered gun could stop a guy robbing them at gun point?"

You missed the point about them having no situational awareness, didn't you? Are you trying to look like a fool, or is it natural talent?

[MichaelHarris]

51. you keep

tossing that "situational awareness" thing around, I'm sure someone is going to buy it. Now hotshot, how many CCP holders walk around totally aware of their situation every minute of every day? A CCP will NOT stop you from being shot when the shooter wants to shoot you unless you turn your CCP into a "Carry in your hand" permit.

A person shot a criminal who had gun in hand aimed at them? The good guy had to reach for a gun and was able to shoot the bad guy? Show me that post. Notice I didn't resort to name calling?

[ManiacJoe]

53. Situational awareness is the key.

If you are not aware of what is going on around you, you have given a huge advantage to the Bad Guy(s). A gun is not a magic talisman. It is just a tool. For it to be of any use, the user needs to know when to use it.

If the Bad Guy has a gun already in his hand, the defender has some major catching up to do. However, action often beats reaction. Given a distraction to the Bad Guy, the defender can often draw and fire before the Bad Guy fires. Note that this does not guarantee that the Bad Guy does not get a shot off any way. Conversely, just because the Bad Guy fires first, does not mean the defender cannot continue his defense.

In the case of the coffee shop, the Bad Guy starts at the counter then draws and turns and fires at the cops (or turns and draws and fires at the cops). At this point any other armed citizen, especially the clerk now behind the Bad Guy, has the opportunity to engage the Bad Guy while his attention is focused elsewhere and stop the encounter early.

[Factoid]

55. Wow.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x277358

Damon Wells, for one - Crook had a pistol aimed at him, he pulled and fired.

Elliott Firby, had a shotgun leveled at his chest but was able to draw and fire.

Human reaction time is not instantaneous, If you train how, it's certainly possible to draw and fire before someone can respond.

And yes, Situational Awareness is very easy to maintain after you learn how. As for "every minute of every day", No, you have to sleep sometime. But while you're out and about? pretty easy, yes, with some practice.

Either you're a terrible troll, or you're so blinded by your opinion you've refused to listen to anyone or anything that may disagree with your perception of reality.

Either is being intellectually dishonest.

[SteveM]

121. The last 2 words of your post says it all. (nt)

[GreenStormCloud]

57. The level of awareness varies according to the setting.

At this second, because I am in my home, I am fairly close to a relaxed, unaware condition. I would be aware of any strange noise, but that is about all. But for this situation, that is enough.

Leaving a mall in the evening, after dark, I would be at high level of awareness. I would have parked my car at the far end of the parking lot, and would begin walking in a different car isle, and looking around for anybody walking towards or parallel to me. If so, I would evaluate how they looked, and if they were looking at me. I would change direction to see if they also changed to intercept me. Depending upon the distance, I may attempt to get back into the mall. If not, then a second course change will establish that they have definately targeted me. At that point my hand would go into my pocket and grasp the pistol, but not draw it. I would tell the individual(s), loudly and firmly, "I don't know you. Your attempt to approach me is making me nervous about you. I will defend myself if I have too." If they pull weapons, from a start with my hand on the gun, I can draw and fire in 1/2 second.

Other places and situations would require different levels of awareness, ranging from relaxed to extremely alert.

BTW - Street criminals tend to be horrible shots. They spend their money on drugs instead of on ammunition for practice and gun club memberships to have access to a firing range. Most of them have prior records so they can't get a membership anyway.

[PavePusher]

69. I think you have your answer.

Again, no-one is claiming a firearm is a panacea, merely a useful tool in certain situations. The better your awareness of your surroundings, the more frequently and effectively you will be able to access/employ that tool.

To the gentlepersons above, than you for the backup.

On edit: and to the persons below, as well.

[PavePusher]

78. More proof...

http://www.wetzelchronicle.com/page/content.detail/id/502037/Robbery-Thwarted-By-Shots.html?nav=5001


Two men attempted to Rob Gifford's gas station in Reader Sunday night, but all they got away with were some ventilation holes in their getaway vehicle.

At approximately 11:20 p.m. a man went to the residence next door to the station and asked owner Tom Gifford if he could use his phone because his car had broken down. Gifford got the phone and when he turned around, the man was holding an knife and a second man wearing a ski mask was in his house holding a pistol.

The unmasked man asked for money and drugs; Gifford complied.

"They didn't want his blood pressure medicine," commented Sheriff James Hoskins.

The duo led Gifford back to the store where they wanted more money and items. "They wanted into the safe," said Gifford. What the perpetrators didn't know was that the store owner had a loaded pistol ready on top of the safe.

"When they saw the gun, I was going to shoot them, but the safety was on," said Gifford. "When I finally got it off they had run out of the building."






And by the way, I wasn't calling you a name, I was describing your (obvious) condition.

[AtheistCrusader]

79. Since you are genuinely asking a question

It does happen. It's rare, because, as you point out, the CCP/victim is behind the curve on initiative. Same reason a person with a holstered weapon is considered in grave danger from a potential assailant with a contact weapon like a knife, as far away as 21 feet.

It's a difficult problem, and lots of factors come into play, such as your own perception, available cover, how concealed your weapon was, as this affects time to draw, etc.

But your basic premise has merit. If someone has committed to shooting you, and you are not aware of their intentions, the odds your own firearm will be of any use are pretty bad.

That said, successful defensive uses of firearms do occur under these circumstances. First shots may miss, or you may be hit in a non-lethal area. You might find cover (behind a counter perhaps, even if it's not bulletproof, it may obscure your position) and then have time to draw. You may be in the room, even if not the actual target, and have time to respond, or the 'bad guy' does a stupid james bond villian speech or something. All of this can and does happen.

[eqfan592]

83. Very well said here, AC. (nt)

[TPaine7]

87. He also makes the false assumption that an intended robbery victim is

in a situation comparable to an intended execution victim.

The situations are not remotely equivalent. In a robbery, the threat of death is a means to an end; in an assassination, death is the objective. In a robbery, the victim can act forcing a REaction from the perpetrator. In a properly executed assassination, the assailant acts without hesitation and the victim has a reaction window measured in milliseconds.

[paulsby]

114. your point is correct

if somebody is hell bent on assassinating you, laying in wait and picking you off when you least expect it, you have very little chance of surviving that.

that is not how the VAST majority of murders, let alone violent crimes (robbery etc.) occur.

most DGU's, like the one i responded to today on patrol, don't involve an assassin hell bent on taking a person out.

[PavePusher]

93. And again...

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefense-Examiner~y2009m11d22-Bessemer-AL-armed-robber-shot-in-self-defense

"Police say that 41 year old Kevin Dudley of Pleasant Grove entered the bait shop, armed with a shotgun, and threatened the lives of those present as part of a robbery attempt. The store owner is said to have grabbed his own gun and shot Dudley in self defense, putting an end to the violent robbery."

[PavePusher]

105. One more time...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x272420

Wow, from right here on this very board! Whodathunkit?

I can do this all week...

[PavePusher]

134. Shall we play some more?

http://www.examiner.com/x-18149-SelfDefense-Examiner~y2009m11d29-Cocoa-FL-gas-station-robber-shot-in-self-defense

When, oh when, are you going to respond... Shall I keep playing, or have you gone off to pout?

[PavePusher]

135. Oops, I did it again...

http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/2009/12/02/california-clerk-who-shot-robber-acted-in-self-defense/#more-4410

"The U–Save liquor store on Tulare and Maple Avenues in Fresno was open for business the day after a store clerk turned the table on an armed robber.

Police say 29–year–old Fernando Valencia and another man tried to rob the clerk at gunpoint Sunday night.

Valencia had a semi–automatic gun, and so did the store clerk.

“He had pointed the firearm at the business owner, at some point in time the business owner became fearful, when he found an opportunity to shoot the suspect, he did,” said Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer."

[PavePusher]

136. Oh dear, this is getting pretty silly...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x273846

Do you concede yet?

[paulsby]

115. don't jump to conclusion

you don't know they had NO situational awareness. they were sitting down at a table working on their laptops and (presumably) drinking coffee, so they may not have been condition yellow, but either way, they still had little chance when the guy was a few feet from them, had the drop on them, and they were seated. the third guy managed to get up, and the fourth guy wrestled with the suspect and shot him before succumbing.

even if you have great situational awareness, if you are sitting down and a guy who has his back to you, draws a gun, turns around and fires it at you, you are probably sol.

[PavePusher]

123. Valid point...

that I should have included. Thanks for the reminder.

[TPaine7]

54. Like these?

Now I know you'll post all these "good shooting" stories but post the one where a guy was able to fire his/her concealed weapon at a bad guy with gun in hand robbing them. Wyatt Earp is dead, he ain't coming back.

You mean like the stories in this OP?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x195218

I've already done that several times, but I'm glad to help.

Here's another:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x196692#196836

[Euromutt]

60. History fail; news reading fail

Wyatt Earp is dead, he ain't coming back.

Wyatt Earp was actually of the opinion--and I reckon he had some idea of what he was talking about--that clearing leather and getting off the first shot didn't matter unless you hit your opponent where it counted. This explains why, during his Tombstone years, Earp was happy to carry a Colt 1873 revolver with a barrel that was at least 10 inches long (possibly 12, but most likely 10); it wasn't a particularly fast weapon to draw and bring on target, but it allowed for excellent shot placement and produced significantly less felt recoil than the more common models with four-inch barrels, making follow-up shots easier.

You should really think about that, if 4 cops couldn't get their gun out why do you think a normal citizen with a holstered gun could stop a guy robbing them at gun point?

Actually, one of the officers did manage to get his weapon out, and managed to wound the shooter.
So now that we've established that you don't actually know what you're talking about, could you have the common fucking decency to put your soapbox back in storage?

[GreenStormCloud]

63. BTW - At the OK corral fight, the Earps already had their guns out.

There wasn't any of that fast draw stuff. Of course, some of them carried shotguns. Wyatt has written that they approached with guns drawn. After all, to use modern terminology, they were LEO approaching known gang members who were known to be armed and dangerous.

[Remmah2]

66. It probably would have gone down like this.

Perp walks into coffee shop, draws firearm and shoots first police officer. Mr. Perp is fixated on his 4 ambush victims. Caroline the cute coffee countess (with clevage) the concerned citizen behind the counter pulls her Kimber 1911 from under the counter (oh my G_d it was not holstered). and dispatches Mr. Perp. Since Caroline practices weekly the perp is down in two shots. Unfortunatly one police officer is dead, however the perp at this point is also dead.

I have a friend who's dad runs a hardware store in a crappy section of the city. His dad and uncle have a 16 gauge pump in the office right behind the main counter. Several times either dad or the uncle have been on the wrong end of a handgun only to have the other emerge from the backroom with the 16 leveled on the perps head. No shots fired, the perp does a very quick exit, the police take a report and review the security tapes.

I also have a friend who has a brother in San Diego. His brother runs a coin-jewlery shop. He was held up, the perp shot him and then his wife. When the perp was going back to finish off his wife he retrieved a .30-30 Marlin lever action rifle (while wounded) and put five 150 grain JSP's in the perp. He couldn't get a CCW in California or he probably would have reacted faster. Jack was also a former Marine which accounts for his proficient rifle skills. Jack spent three months in ICU, his wife was in the hospital for the same amount if time, though less serious. However she ended up not speaking for almost 6 months.

Criminals should fear honest-responsible citizens with firearms.

[TPaine7]

74. Here's another story that may interest you...

TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts)
Thu Jun-18-09 09:31 AM
Original message
Princeton woman, 77, escorts armed intruder from home at gunpoint

By Diana Graettinger
BDN Staff
MACHIAS, Maine — A 77-year-old Princeton woman faced down a man armed with a sawed-off shotgun and sent him running after she pointed her own gun at him, according to court documents.

Source: http://www.bangordailynews.com/detail/108501.html

I for one, realize that this story must be fiction:

1) It is impossible to use a gun to successfully defend against an armed assailant--the bad guys always win.
2) A gun in the home is 75,000 times more likely to be used against you than to be used defensively. This woman would have died several thousands of times before this single defensive use, even if she beat the odds considerably.
3) If she had gotten a shot off before the felon killed her, it would have missed him and killed her daughter (or a neighborhood kid, or a puppy or a kitten or a butterfly...).

I can't imagine why news organizations--and even court documents--lie like that.

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x230941

#1 Seems to be a variation on your position.

[SteveM]

120. Now it's the "social construction of history." But he won't engage in honest debate...

Actually, Mr. Harris, we talk about these issues all the time. The problem is you will not engage in honest debate, esp. over the proposition that CCW (CCP) holders are better protected, and not (as you seem to think) provided a guarantee in any "what if" you can conjur.

You will get the answer to your question in short order. BTW, do you take your cues from Earp? Jeez, he was a consultant to Hollywood movies.

[paulsby]

116. the owner was a retired cop

i don't think he was even present during the robbery though. the barista was (apparently) not armed and ran away as soon as she saw the guy draw the gun, and i can't blame her.

you are correct that the (now dead) perp had MULTIPLE felony convictions, and a number of active warrants. he was currently on bail for child rape (11 and 12 yr old) and for punching a cop in the face, amongst other things

[Euromutt]

130. That's the owner of the entire chain, not just that location

Forza Coffee's pretty widespread in Pierce County, with several more locations in south King, and Brad Carpenter is the CEO of the entire company.

[GreenStormCloud]

47. My wife's carry permit enabled her to stop a mugger from murdering her. N/T

[MichaelHarris]

52. link

the news story

[GreenStormCloud]

56. Media didn't bother to carry the story.

The mugger ran away, nobody got shot, she didn't get mugged, so the media didn't bother. Since the would be mugger turned and ran away, he didn't commit a crime. Somewhere in the old files of the Dallas Police Dept there will be the officer's report and that's about all.

[eqfan592]

65. Yep, and this is the problem that people like MH can't get around.

A lot, if not most (I have no hard evidence on hand, so I'm going to avoid asserting that it is for sure most) DGU's don't involve a shot even being fired, so they don't usually make the news.

[paulsby]

113. i responded to one today in patrol

(posted about it).

guy saw a burglar in his neighbors house, ran inside, called 911, and ran back outside with a shotgun. as the burglar exited the house, he held him at gunpoint until we arrived. kid (burglar was 16) had a backpack on with a bunch of stuff he had just stolen from the house. the other suspect got away, but we know who he is.

this was a classic DGU, no shots fired, and will never make any media outlet. happens every day

[AtheistCrusader]

82. Grab a copy of the police report.

Scan it, redact her name if you want. It would be nice to geniunely address MH's question for once.

[GreenStormCloud]

89. Too much trouble. It wouldn't change MH's set-in-cement mind.

It has been several years. We don't even have the report number or even remember the exact month anymore. It would be too much hassle. And since the goblin didn't actually commit a crime, MH would simply say that my wife over-reacted.

But I like the way you think.

[Tejas]

70. How about a link that proves

you're the journalist you claimed to be in your first postings here in the Gungeon?

Just kidding, don't worry, we are all okay with you being just another run-of-the-mill penis-this penis-that with a keyboard.

[SteveM]

118. A civilian with a gun in that situation may have slowed it down...

Please note that the cops were apparently TARGETED. I doubt this goblin was targeting civilians at-random. As you have no doubt been informed, CCWs are no guarantees, only better protection.

Refreshed, now?

[MadMaddie]

27. Yes, bullet proof vests and all of their gear.

No one has said it but it is obvious how they were executed.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OttavaKarhu]

44. Please don't exploit our community tragedy as a spectacle!

And please discourage others from doing it as well.



Agree with AtheistCrusader in an earlier thread: this person needs to be hunted down and found.

Best local reporting I've seen:

http://www.nwcn.com/news/washington/Police-officers-shot-78089882.html
http://www.seattlecrime.com/2009/11/29/swat-surrounds-home-in-leschi-possibly-related-to-lakewood-shooting

***Seattle Police are presently broadcasting a search for car driven by possible accomplice:

***

White 83 Buick Lasabre 547XVE

[GreenStormCloud]

48. In Remembrance

The nation has lost four of its finest. The thoughts, our hearts, and for those of use that are religious - our prayers, go out today for the families, friends, and fellow officers of those slain. By "our" I mean those of us on both sides of the gun-control issue. In fact, even left and right (mostly) put aside their differences to pay respect to those fallen gallant officers. Some things are above politics, and this is one of them.

[GreenStormCloud]

58. BREAKING NEWS: The suspect is dead, killed by cops.

No details at this time.

[Euromutt]

61. Further details from the Seattle Times; Clemmons had Lakewood cop's gun

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010393433_webarrest01m.html

Clemmons had one of the murdered cops' guns on him, which pretty much clinches in my mind that the investigators fingered the right guy. Good riddance.

[GreenStormCloud]

64. Clemmons was spotted by an officer watching a parked stolen car.

They also found Clemmons' pickup, with bloodstains and a gun in it.

And Clemmons' body has an earlier gunshot wound where one of the four officers managed to get a shot into him.

People are also reporting that Clemmons had been bragging about how he was "...going to shoot some cops and watch the news."

Put all of that together and I am confident that they got the right guy.

The officer that saw him has saved the state a lot of money. Clemmons criminal career is over.

[Euromutt]

80. Spotted while approaching the patrol car from behind

From the Seattle Times article:

Seattle police said the officer was on routine patrol when he saw a car with the hood up and the engine running.

The officer ran the license plate and determined the car had been stolen, said Seattle Assistant Chief Jim Pugel.

The car had been reported stolen from the 4800 block of South Chicago Street about 12:45 a.m., a law enforcement source said.

As the officer sat in his patrol car doing paperwork on the stolen car, he noticed a man was approaching the driver's side of the patrol car from behind.

The officer immediately recognized the man as matching the description of Clemmons and got out his patrol car, Pugel said.

Sound to me like Clemmons was trying to add a fifth notch. Unfortunately for him, Seattle PD have been a bit on edge the past month.

[AtheistCrusader]

84. Daaaaamn

That was close.

[Remmah2]

67. Evasion

If I heard ABC right this morning, he evaded the police because his relatives were giving them false leads.

[Xenotime]

72. IN A RELATED STORY: The 6th Amendment was suspended for one man in Seattle today.

[Tejas]

73. UPDATE: Man waives 6th Amendment rights, latest winner in stupid games/stupid prizes.

[PavePusher]

75. Where were you to peacefully talk him out of resisting arrest? n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

76. Wrong. You waive it when you point a gun at a police officer.

Actually that's not true. You still get due process.

Ejecta mass × ejecta velocity = recoiling mass × recoil velocity

[jeepnstein]

77. Was not.

Maurice Clemmons was entitled to his day in court. If he had submitted to the lawful authority of the police he would have been given every opportunity to prove his innocence. The state would have even paid for his lawyer. Our system bends over backwards to give these guys the benefit of the doubt.

Maurice Clemmons, instead, chose to take a very dangerous course of action and got himself killed in the process. He was already nursing a gunshot wound, had a firearm that was issued to one of the murdered officers, and was sitting in a stolen car. Even at that point if he had simply followed the officer's instructions and allowed himself to be taken into custody he would be alive today.

Imagine working a job at 2:30 in the morning, alone, when all of a sudden you get to try to arrest a man suspected of four murders. The man is assumed to be armed and has a previous history of violence. That raises all sorts of interesting warning flags in most people. I would venture to say that most folks posting on this board would want no part in attempting an arrest like that. It all comes down to a few seconds, a suspect who makes a boatload of wrong choices, and an officer choosing to survive. It has nothing to do with the Constitution. It has nothing to do with who turned this guy loose from prison the last time he was down. It has everything to do with a violent repeat offender who chooses to not submit to a lawful arrest.

Maurice Clemmons created the nightmare. Maurice Clemmons was responsible for the way it ended.

[Euromutt]

85. After he approached the patrol car from behind on the driver's side

Let's cut the bullshit: Clemmons parked a stolen car as bait in an attempt to rack up his fifth cop killing, using a gun taken from one of his earlier victims. He also ignored two instructions to stop, but didn't flee either, trying instead to get around the patrol car to come at the SPD officer from a different angle.

Let's not pretend the late, unlamented Maurice Clemmons was the victim of excessive force on the police's part.

[oneshooter]

107. In a non related story, The Sixth Amendment will be suspended

for anyone that directly threatens my family. They will find themselves with large gaping holes in their person.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[paulsby]

112. no, it wasn't

all indication are the shooting was legal under WA law, WA case law, and US case law (tennessee v. garner, etc.)

[oneshooter]

59. One was found,, commited "death by cop"

Around 2:30 this morning, in Seattle. Saved the cost of a trial.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/21760096/detail.html

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[Katya Mullethov]

62. That is unfortunate

I was really looking forward to clothing ,feeding, and defending him for the next 25-30 years .

[GreenStormCloud]

68. Don't forget that we are now going to be deprived of...

His conversion to Islam and changing his name. His writing (With complete help of a ghost writer.) a children's book. His spouting revolutionary language and becoming a celebrity cause with the rich & bored crowd. The movement demanding that he be freed.

I will miss all of that - NOT. Excellent control of your sidearm, Officer. Good shooting.

[AtheistCrusader]

86. Why?

Didn't he convert to Christianity last time he was incarcerated for 30+ years?

I don't think religion really figures into it, excpting of course the gullibility of messir Huckabee.
I would actually have preferred to see him stand trial, and justice served, but I won't lament his passing.

[GreenStormCloud]

91. I was being facetious.

Tookie Williams wrote a children's book (Some claim it was ghost written for him.)and had a movement of people trying claim he was innocent. Tookie got the needle a few years ago.

Wesley Cook converted to Islam, changed his name to Mumia Abu-Jamal and spouts revolutionary rhetoric after killing an officer in 1981. He has been able to keep a legal and political circus going since his conviction in 1982.

By Clemmons attempting to shoot another officer and the officer winning, we are spared the possibility of the above insanity repeating itself.

[slackmaster]

122. Hey GreenStormCloud, sometimes facetiousness imitates life...

Apparently Maurice Clemons joined Nation of Islam while he was incarcerated in Arkansas.

http://www.fireandreamitchell.com/2009/12/01/black-muslim-group-called-seattle-black-foot-soldiers-celebrates-%E2%80%9Cbrother-martyr%E2%80%9D-maurice-clemmons-he-also-became-a-member-of-the-nation-of-islam-while-in-arkansas/

[GreenStormCloud]

126. Sometimes, it seems like the goblins are following a script. N/T

[jeepnstein]

71. I blame Maurice Clemmons.

He chose to murder four people. Nobody made him do it. It was his choice.

That doesn't mean we should collectively punish the lawful citizens of this country who safely and responsibly exercise their Rights.

[Remmah2]

81. BINGO!

We have a winner, the rest of the contestants may now leave the studio.

[Hard2believe]

88. I'm waiting for

some of the gun advocates to tell us again that arming our students as they did last year or the year before when guys like "The Hammer" said that the pupils should have been armed at Virginia Tech and so the death rate would not have been so "high". The apt word there is high.

Yes, it's possible that there would not have been as many death's on that occasion. How many would there have been when the 20 year olds finds out their boy friend or girlfriend are cheating? How about when they dislike a professor that gave bad grades? How about when theses same "kids" are high and many at a party are armed when an argument breaks out?

Will there still be a call to have concealed carry in this country for college students? It is ridiculous even when it is considered amongst adults.

We have the highest incidents of gun deaths per capita in the industrialized world. Why?

All of the those poor policemen/women left families behind. Trained professionals and they did not survive. So to all you advocates of loading up and swaggering around with your phallic symbols. Find yourselves a state and leave the rest of us alone. Today in my neighborhood we are burying a man and his family consisting of a wife and two suns. He had a gun. He had financial problems. He shot them and then himself.

If that were in any of the countries I have visited recently (Ireland ) being one, they actually laugh (not ha ha) but at the idiotic arguments and inane commentary they hear about the second amendment.

Uniformed police in Ireland are unarmed. Most detectives are unarmed. Hand guns are illegal. Crime is almost low and one murder in a month is news.

What's wrong with us?

[AtheistCrusader]

90. Americans are violent.

Completely ignoring gun deaths, the US far outstrips Ireland, and most other nations in fatal beatings, stabbings, and all non-gun related forms of murder.

Americans are violent, even before we consider firearms.

Anyway, we have plenty of historical data that concealed carry, even by people just 21 years of age, is not a statistically relevant problem. (Handguns cannot be carried by sub-21 year olds)

No one is talking about arming students. Only allowing them the same freedom of movement people like me have, when lawfully carrying a concealed firearm.

[Euromutt]

104. Americans are homicidal

When it comes to non-fatal violent crime, the US is pretty unremarkable, and it's downright placid compared to north-western Europe, especially Great Britain. But when Americans do get violent, they seem to do so with lethal intent.

There's got to be a topic for a decent sociology dissertation in there.

[AtheistCrusader]

109. Oh absolutely.

It's variously attributed to things like Hollywood or video games in the US, but I'd like to see a peer reviewed comparison of... I don't know, 'respect' for human life between a random sampling of Americans and other countries like Ireland, or Germany or something.

I'm not even sure how you would go about framing the study, but there has got to be some fundamental difference between our societies, because guns are by no means the largest differentiating factor.

And you're right, we're more homicidal. Not more 'violent'. It's like maybe we restrain ourselves a bit more 'normally' but when the flag flies and we fight, someone is more likely to die.

[paulsby]

111. actually

not to sound like marion barry here, but it's true our homicide rate is (*much) higher than many european countries, etc.

but our violent crime rate overall is lower than many of those countries.

[AtheistCrusader]

124. Yeah, that was Euromutt's point.

I wonder if it's a 'release' sort of thing. European countries have a higher incidence of people just beating the crud out of each other, but in the US we have a higher incidence of people beating each other to death.

I wonder if it's a 'blowing off steam' sort of thing, where avoiding conflict, or attempting to control anger, just leads to a detonation, far worse than it needed to be? Maybe Europeans 'get it out of their system' with more frequent but less-serious fights.

[GreenStormCloud]

92. There are states that do allow CCW holders to carry on campus. No problems there.

Yet, dispite the example of several states that do allow it, you antis still claim that there will be blood-in-the-hallways.

Further, 20 yr olds are not able to get CCWs. You have to be 21. At least get your facts straight.

I would be interested in your explanation of why states that allow it haven't had problems but a new states would have rampant shootings on campus.

The officers were in uniform and openly carrying, so the killer knew who to go for. In a classroom of students in ordinary clothes, the killer does NOT know who to target.

The guns=penis insult is really rather old and lacking in originality.

[Hard2believe]

102. If you're talking to me

about concealed guns for 20 and 21 year olds. I neveer said that. I said that Delay wanted to ARM students thus dropping crime.

[GreenStormCloud]

106. And you are the one that said 20 yr olds, not him.

And you are the one who is against it.

Now what about adressing the question that I asked? Since other states have done it and nothing bad has happened, why will Delay's state have blood-in-the-hallways?

[paulsby]

110. my state WA does

UW, WSU, etc. it's legal on college campuses

[AtheistCrusader]

125. And to elaborate

No one is 'arming' these students. A student over the age of 21 may apply for a concealed pistol license, just like any other law abiding citizen over the age of 21, with no serious criminal history.

It's an opt-in thing. The student has to A) Acquire a firearm, B) Acquire a permit, which requires a full FBI background check with fingerprints, and then C) Elect to actually carry on their person.


As an experienced CCW advocate, I must say, concealed carry is not comfortable. You have to keep nearly a full pound of rather awkward metal hidden on your person, plus it needs to be accessible, and spare mags are a good idea, so you could be lugging a few pounds of uncomfortable metal around on your person. It's a damn chore, to be honest. I do it because I care about the lives of people around me, and my own life. If I ever need it, nothing else will do.

[Tejas]

94. Congrats, not only our 1st penis-poster but a poor BS'er too!

So to all you advocates of loading up and swaggering around with your phallic symbols. Find yourselves a state and leave the rest of us alone.



My dear self-righteous skippy, you are hereby eligible to move to your beloved vacation spot in Ireland where everybody keeps their penis under control.


Oh wait, it appears there is a problem with your contest entry.
Ireland seems not to be the land of cops-have-no-guns-but-less-than-one-murder-a-month:

Capital's murder rate one of the highest in Europe

Independent.ie

"In the space of a decade, Dublin has gone from having one of the lowest homicide rates of any European capital city to having possibly the highest, and certainly the highest for gang-related murders.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/capitals-murder-rate-one-of-the-highest-in-europe-1806545.html

[AtheistCrusader]

98. It's such a tired cliche, I didn't even notice it.

But his point stands on Ireland's murder rate. It is exceptionally low, even if the capitol has a very high murder rate compared to the average european city.

[TPaine7]

95. I hope you aren't planning on burying them on earth

"Today in my neighborhood we are burying ... two suns."

No disrespect intended to the deceased or their families, but bury the suns elsewhere. Two suns being buried would destroy life on earth.

[slackmaster]

96. Nonsense.

... How many would there have been when the 20 year olds finds out their boy friend or girlfriend are cheating? How about when they dislike a professor that gave bad grades? How about when theses same "kids" are high and many at a party are armed when an argument breaks out?

No state issues concealed weapons permits to 20-year-olds.

[eqfan592]

97. And even if they did....

....the presence of a firearm is NOT going to suddenly turn somebody into a homicidal maniac as the poster suggests. The poster is implying that these same people would not otherwise try to kill the people in question, but somehow would do so if they had a firearm.

This assertion is ridiculous in the extreme.

[slackmaster]

99. It may be projection

Hard2believe may be attributing to others a fear of what Hard2believe would do if Hard2believe had a firearm.

[PavePusher]

101. I was going to add...

What's stopping them from doing that now? Ink on paper? Or basic human decency?

[Euromutt]

128. The very point I was going to make

I've never understood this "argument" against CCW on campus of "students might intimidate professors into giving them better grades." As if there's anything to physically prevent a student from threatening to retrieve a gun kept off-campus, or cut the prof's brake lines, burn down his house, whatever. It all comes down once again to this magical notion that possession of a firearm by itself makes you mentally capable of unlawful behavior that you would otherwise not be.

[eqfan592]

129. Yep, I don't think I'll ever get that attitude.

The entire idea seems to be that firearms turn otherwise upstanding citizens into homicidal maniacs waiting to explode. Slights that would otherwise have gone unnoticed have now become triggers for so-called "Old West" style shootouts, simply because the person was carrying a gun.

It's totally ridiculous.

[oneshooter]

132. It is the "sharesunited" form of gun control

The idea that the machine made of metal and wood, or plastic, can control the mind of a human.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[PavePusher]

133. "The Precious....

...it burns us....!":tinfoilhat:

[PavePusher]

100. Can you actually hear what you are saying?

"Yes, it's possible that there would not have been as many death's on that occasion. How many would there have been when the 20 year olds finds out their boy friend or girlfriend are cheating? How about when they dislike a professor that gave bad grades? How about when theses same "kids" are high and many at a party are armed when an argument breaks out?

Will there still be a call to have concealed carry in this country for college students? It is ridiculous even when it is considered amongst adults."



Yes, because Utah and Colorado colleges are awash in the blood of the innocents gunned down by permit holders.


:sarcasm:



You are... MASSIVE FACEPALM.




"What's wrong with us?"

Well, for starters, your grammer is atrocious. Please confirm you are a non-native-english speaker, or get a proofreader. If you had some logic or facts on your side, I'd let this slide...

[Euromutt]

103. Ireland? Isn't that a constituent part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland?

Oh no, that's right, it became the Irish Free State in 1922, didn't it? After a two year-long war of independence, which saw quite an extensive use of firearms by the Irish side. On "Bloody Sunday" in 1920, the IRA's "Squad" shot 20 members of British intelligence (14 fatally), to cite just one example, and they did not use crossbows.

And the more cynically minded would remark that the reason the Gardai aren't armed is because otherwise the Provisional IRA would steal the guns. A former co-worker of mine in the UN had been in the Irish Defence Forces in the 1980s, and during one training exercise, his unit almost ran into a bunch of Provos training in the woods (yes, inside the Republic). The IDF guys withdrew to prevent the Provos from taking their guns.